World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

[Traab]

Thats the nature of power creep in all MMOs. Even if they implemented something such that content from 1-60 was difficult for people with mains to bankroll it, send them mats not to mention strong knowledge of the game, yet accessible, interesting, captivating, and does not make noobs seem like noobs to themselves (a major turn of for new subs). And they can develop and implement it in a cost efficient matter (basically impossible), what do they get?

People would complain that its boring the third time through a level 45 dungeon, and demand new content. Same place as now, only with a lot of $$ burnt :)


In other news got 85 last night on my first character, a Dwarven Prot Pally. Got a level 2 alt Ill try out some time :). 525 mining 502 BS.

My first purchase was a Chestplate of the Steadfast with a +40 mastery gem and a +20 mastery +30 Stam gems for the bonus. Used all my JP and about 20 gold. Good purchase? My prior chest was a random drop of level 272, so nice upgrade, but was there a better in slot that was affordable?

So now I guess its hitting more random group finder to get lv 333 loot and JP, to get into heroics?

Its not about power creep, its about deliberate nerfing of content. As an example, in TBC, there was a dungeon called the Shadow Labyrinth. It had a room that was really hard to beat on heroic, it had something like 6 mob pulls and cc wasnt effective on most of them. (this was before aoe slaughter was viable) Most people got through it fine, it just took paying attention and working well together, but enough people complained about it that blizzard nerfed it. They either removed some spawns, weakened the mobs, or maybe both, its been a lot of years. But that was just one example out of many.

Virtually all content that was added in difficult, is eventually nerfed so its far easier. They did that with cata on an extreme scale. You dont need to twink your characters from the start, you get great quest gear that is equivalent to 90% of the ah gear, and everything dies way faster. All dungeons that had challenging spots were nerfed. Raid dungeons stay hard for awhile, then eventually get respawn timers reduced, or spawn numbers dropped, or hp/dps reduced, or recast timers on boss abilities increased. all so the less hardcore raiders can get into those dungeons and get the endgame loot.

[Dublock]

Depends on whats available in your server if its a good buy.

Also yea normal dungeons then heroic, and they will be tossing you into the troll dungeons and the hour of twilight without much warning which can be hard more so if people don't know what to do. Try to keep a thick skin as people can be harsh. Group up with friends/guild members if you can.

[Leon]

Woot.
My Shaman won the Chest Token and the Shield in Fall of Deathwing LfR (had some hunter badering me for the chest token wanting to trade it for the helm - i refused as i have a decent helm (iLevel 378) and a not so decent Chest (ilvl 353) Plus its not like i'll be seeing anymore DS raids as my account expires on friday and i wont be back till the end of the expac to see what occurs at the transition)
Only thing lacking now is better pants and Trinket, just edges the Hunter out a on highest Item level 378 to 379.


Something that really annoys me that i just have to vent about - people who use mass rez when a normal one is all that is needed, More so when its a healing capable class doing it. Rezzing one person does not need a mass version that debuffs the target, its acceptable when the only classes left standing cant rez any other way but why really does a Caster that can heal have to use it?

[Expf]

Rezzing one person does not need a mass version that debuffs the target, its acceptable when the only classes left standing cant rez any other way but why really does a Caster that can heal have to use it?

Mass Resurrection has a significantly larger range, ignores line-of-sight, and does not require you to target anything. It also costs no mana. So there are some advantages to using Mass Res.

[Zeb The Troll]

While that may be true, I agree that I often see it used inappropriately. When a dead DPS is at the priest's feet and there will be ample time to get mana back before the next pull. Then, of course, as mentioned, when an actual wipe happens the aforementioned DPS can't accept the mage's Mass Rez because of said debuff. It's just annoying, like someone's just trying to show off that they have it but no one's actually all that impressed.

[Expf]

While that may be true, I agree that I often see it used inappropriately. When a dead DPS is at the priest's feet and there will be ample time to get mana back before the next pull. Then, of course, as mentioned, when an actual wipe happens the aforementioned DPS can't accept the mage's Mass Rez because of said debuff. It's just annoying, like someone's just trying to show off that they have it but no one's actually all that impressed.

People generally don't think before they do anything. It's pretty common in LFRs, sadly.

[Karoht]

So now I guess its hitting more random group finder to get lv 333 loot and JP, to get into heroics?

More or less.
Heroic Bosses behave a bit differently than the regular. I recommend checking it out.
www.tankspot.com click videos and search for the dungeons.
www.wowpedia.org there should be a link to the 5 man instances.

You don't need to study them in detail, but just have a rough idea and know what to look for, it makes your life easier.


============

Most people got through it fine, it just took paying attention and working well together, but enough people complained about it that blizzard nerfed it.

Virtually all content that was added in difficult, is eventually nerfed so its far easier. All so the less hardcore raiders can get into those dungeons and get the endgame loot.

Without sounding like a WoW hipster or elitist jerk (no, I'm not infering that you are being either), I agree with the complaint but only to a point.
Some nerfs, especially in Cata, were due to really poor mechanics that could just stonewall you with RNG. Raid/Dungeon success should never be a slot machine, the loot system is already RNG enough.
Literally, when we were pulling Nef on heroic before some of the adjustments (changing the pattern of his mind control isn't really a nerf per se) and literally praying that he wouldn't insta-mind control one of our CC assigned to that first pack of skeletons? Or that it wouldn't go after all 3 healers at the same time? (Yes, they could just break it, but it was about a 4 second turn around time of no healing going out, one or both tanks usually died at that point) Yeah, that just wasn't fun. And it meant that we couldn't get a good clean parse unless the system let us. That isn't a test of player skill at that point, it's a test of patience towards the RNG of the system.

However, other nerfs (like the sweeping nerfs of Firelands) were mostly just about making the content more pug friendly. Feel free to be mad about those. They came waaaaay too early and were far too sharp IMO. Thankfully, with LFR introduced that shouldn't be a huge problem anymore. Yes, you will see nerfs in normal and Heroic mode in future, but I highly doubt we will ever see them to the degree of the Firelands nerf.


But I always question something that I don't think Blizzard can really address.
WHY do people cry for nerfs?
Why do people seem to hit brick walls on things like normal mode dungeons, or on the first boss of (insert raid), or any other number of places?
What are the big stumbling blocks? Are they things that Blizzard can even do anything about?
This is something I hope to address on my livestream and or show at some point.

But then again, look at how many resources there are for WoW that are community based? There's show after show after show, there are websites like wowpedia.org, tankspot.com, elitistjerks, icy-veins, etc. ect. etc.

Odds are if someone is playing poorly, no matter how much poking you give them, they probably won't go check out any of these resources to either understand the bosses better, or understanding your class better.

Then there is the immersion aspect. Some people refuse to check out resources because it spoils the surprise or the immersion. Same with people who want to play their class their way. Sure, it means you run into mages who are fire speced spamming icebolt, but odds are you won't reach those players by pointing out that their performance is lacking because they are honestly disconnected from their performance and are just there to have a good time. At the same point, as hypocritical as it may sound, occasionally this group of players wants to succeed at something or see the story, which is when they tend to cross paths with players who are more critical of their abilities. And that is when sparks tend to fly.


In the end, right now I don't blame Blizzard for nerfing (though I dislike how things feel when it happens), partly because I don't see too many other tools they can utilize with any degree of success. Other MMO's have tried stuff that taugh one how to play their class (in game videos, idiot lingo tooltips on abilities, forced combo systems to teach 'rotation'), they still got herp derps in those games.
I'm really excited to see how this new 'proving grounds' feature will work out. I don't expect it to even remotely address the problem, but it might be an excellent tool all the same. It might encourage some people to play better, it might not. It might give people an idea that they aren't as good as they think they are, it might not. It might cause someone to actually check out these resources or ask their friends for help. It might cause someone to actually give a darn about pulling their weight in a group.
Or it might do none of these things and just be a fun piece of solo content. Hard to say.

[Alarra]

proving grounds? sorry... i have no idea what you're talking about.

[Karoht]

proving grounds? sorry... i have no idea what you're talking about.

New feature in MoP
Think of them like solo-dungeons. Some story, some fun bosses, but designed for solo. But they are mostly designed for being an extremely advanced target dummy, and there has been word that they might even be a sort of tutorial on endgame play. It tells you to not stand in fire, it also tells you what all of your abilities are for and provides situations for them to be used properly. IE-A patch of fire is dropped and a bunch of mobs are headed your way. It would tell a Warrior to Leap over the fire into the pack and then start AoEing them down. It would also tell that Warrior to use Pummel to interrupt the caster from casting Instant Death on said Warrior.
Scenarios are designed for 3 people if I'm not mistaken.

[The Glyphstone]

Okay, now that honestly sounds cool.

[Traab]

The reason why they cry for nerfs to content is because they arent idiot proof enough. In a guild raid group you generally get decent players eventually. Players who know what they are doing, know how to listen, and know how to do their job. In pugs you keep getting people that basically want to be carried, that dont care enough to pay attention to the directions, and in any difficult dungeon that means a fast death and a group wipe. In shadow lab heroic, you had 6 pulls of mobs that had to be handled very carefully. Everyone had to do their job at the right time. It was a fun and challenging bit of battle, but because these guys didnt want a challenge, they just wanted to farm loot and move on, they whined and whined, and despite the dozens of posters pointing out that its simple to get through if you just pay attention, it got eventually nerfed. Its the same for virtually all content that gets nerfed. There are exceptions, but in general, there is just a mindset of some people that challenge = no fun. If it isnt easy and boring, then it isnt worth doing, and it isnt fair that other people get loot there while they cant because they are so pathetic that they cant figure out how to avoid the fire that gives them several seconds advance warning.

Personally, I LIKE challenge, I remember when molten core first came out, it took my guild 3 MONTHS to kill ragnaros. Thats with 4 days a week raiding. We didnt whine when the first double molten giant pull killed us, we didnt cry when lucifron kept spanking us. We didnt flame the message boards because the core hound packs kept dying too far apart and reigniting, we just got better and cleared it! We learned the bosses abilities, figured out a strategy, (we didnt use guides, we wanted to figure it out ourselves) and kept at it till it worked. So seeing all the good raid and regular dungeon content get reduced to weak nonsense hurts, because I play this game for a challenge, even if I have to make it for myself now by picking fights with 3-5 person quests while solo.

[Karoht]

There are exceptions, but in general, there is just a mindset of some people that challenge = no fun.

Right. But where does that mindset come from? That's the part I'm confused about, constantly.
When I was a newbie healer, I was terrible, but I researched, I learned, and I got better.
When I was messing around with my Shadow Priest I was terrible, but I researched, I learned, and I got somewhat better, even though I'm still embarassed by my lack of output.
I've heard people say "it's a game" as an excuse, but you learn in games all the time. If you didn't learn while playing a game, Mario would die on the first Goomba.

What makes some people just completely unaware that they aren't performing well?
What makes them completely adverse to finding out why? The majority of people I run into figure out their problems on their own, and are excited to learn and grow. What is it about these other people who seem to stick their fingers in their ears and say "this is the way I'm going to play, if other people don't like it they can boot me or carry me" ???
It makes me wonder how often a pug group fills with 5/10/25 people of this attitude, and how far they get by fumbling around.
Again, I really do wonder what the major blockage towards learning is. There's google. There's guides everywhere. It can't be availablity of resources, it has to be one of attitude, but why does that attitude occur?

If it isnt easy and boring, then it isnt worth doing, and it isnt fair that other people get loot there while they cant because they are so pathetic that they cant figure out how to avoid the fire that gives them several seconds advance warning.

*Warning*
The Following is not a serious knock at casual players but is in fact a knock at poor performing players who use 'casual' as an excuse.
To quote one of my favorite WoW machinimas by WoWcrendor...
"I'm casual. I don't have time to think or sheep mobs."
*Warning*
If you are offended by that remark, please see the above warning. This has been a public service announcement, brought to you by WoWcrendor.

Personally, I LIKE challenge, I remember when molten core first came out, it took my guild 3 MONTHS to kill ragnaros. Thats with 4 days a week raiding. We didnt whine when the first double molten giant pull killed us, we didnt cry when lucifron kept spanking us. We didnt flame the message boards because the core hound packs kept dying too far apart and reigniting, we just got better and cleared it! We learned the bosses abilities, figured out a strategy, (we didnt use guides, we wanted to figure it out ourselves) and kept at it till it worked. So seeing all the good raid and regular dungeon content get reduced to weak nonsense hurts, because I play this game for a challenge, even if I have to make it for myself now by picking fights with 3-5 person quests while solo.

My guild full cleared Dragon Soul on Normal mode the first week it was out. Nobody studied the videos because they were all PTR videos at the time, and we learned from Firelands not to trust PTR videos. Challenge. I enjoy it. I hear you man. Heroic Mode raids are still challenging. Tier 11 Heroic Mode never actually got nerfed, and that stuff isn't something you can just pug. Pugs never seem able to grasp the concept of Nefarian's mind control/portal mechanic. Heck, they hardly grasp the notion that they have to interrupt adds in phase 2. Outgearing that place doesn't make up the difference, trust me.
Sinestra? Still hard. She never was nerfed, other than Wrack doesn't target tanks as often. I help out a regular pug group clear that place out about once a month. 6 wipes is our best record yet.

[Traab]

Right. But where does that mindset come from? That's the part I'm confused about, constantly.

Its the same mindset of people who buy a new game and put in the godmode code right away, or the second they cant curb stomp the content. I think it makes them feel good to just crush everything in the way and it doesnt matter that its only by cheating, and its easier than practicing and getting better. If you run a lot of non guild pugs, you will see this every now and then. There will be a member of the group that does as little as possible and lets the rest carry them. The tank that is constantly losing agro because he isnt even taunting, just attacking groups of mobs and letting everyone else deal with killing them, the dps class that is always at the bottom of the chart, just slapping an aoe down to get credit for rep off the trash.

The basic gist of it is, "I want everything handed to me." Where does that mindset come from? You might as well ask where the mindset of, "I like a challenge" comes from. Its just how people are.

[Karoht]

Where does that mindset come from? You might as well ask where the mindset of, "I like a challenge" comes from. Its just how people are.

Wow. That is actually a brilliant way to look at that.

Okay people, we got a topic.
Who likes challenge?
Why do you like challenge?
What sort of things do you do when you encounter challenge?

[Leon]

And Im out.

Like last time i really hope that by the next time i come back that Blizzard gets its big thick head around making Heirloom items actually account bound.

At least the Transmog was good (on my last try at getting Earthfury Chest in MC last night i ended up with the Lawbringer chest - which my Housemate has been chasing on and off for a very long time now)

[Karoht]

And Im out.

Like last time i really hope that by the next time i come back that Blizzard gets its big thick head around making Heirloom items actually account bound.

This is honestly one of the only issues I ever hear you discuss.
Is it THAT hard to level a character to 85 on another server and then get them? Seriously? I mean, if you want to play on another server so bad, why is this a stumbling block? You've complained about it for easily 2 years, by now you could have just leveled to 85 and spent the meager amount of time picking them up with justice points. If that's the sort of thing you quit a game over...

They keep saying they're going to fix this, and with account bound mounts and achievements in MoP that sounds likely, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

That and leveling is pretty darned easy now. You really don't need Heirloom items these days. I find you level too fast with them anyway.

[Zherog]

One thing on the "no effort" discussion (that's probably tangential, but I'll toss it out there anywa)

Different people have different skill levels where they'll max out. That's true for just about everything, including a video game. Maybe it's because they have poorer reflexes, or maybe they do fine up until a point where they have to process X amount of data at once, and they're just not capable. Whatever. Each person has a limit; some folks are good enough to get to the top of the charts; some folks (or, I guess, most folks) are going to always be right around the middle. Somebody's gotta be at the bottom. It's pretty much just a standard bell-curve distribution - it generally applies to test scores in school, but it applies in other facets of life, too.

Now, I say that's entirely tangential because it's not quite the person you're describing. But there's probably some overlap - people who look like tools, but maybe they've just hit they're limit as to how good they can be. Now, this most definitely doesn't apply to, for example, a fire mage who does nothing but spam icebolt. That's just intentionally nerfing yourself. If you want to do that while soloing/leveling go ahead and knock yourself out. Just realize that once other people's characters are depnding on you to do some minimum level that maybe you need to take advantage of dual-spec etc and play a slightly different way...


To tie my main point back to Karoht's Mario example... my wife can handle world 1-1 no problem. She can handle 1-2 and 1-3. 1-4 gives her trouble, but a few tries and she'll get through it. World 2, though, she just can't do. No matter how much she tries, no matter how often she watches somebody else do it. it's her "wall" - the obstacle she just can't get over. (and quick note, I don't actually remember if 2-1 was her breaking point; but the actual level isn't important to the analogy.)

[Karoht]

Each person has a limit; some folks are good enough to get to the top of the charts; some folks (or, I guess, most folks) are going to always be right around the middle. Somebody's gotta be at the bottom. It's pretty much just a standard bell-curve distribution - it generally applies to test scores in school, but it applies in other facets of life, too.

Great. But why do so few people actually try and push past that limit? Why do some people not even hit anything resembling a limit, and then expect a carry? When we have a hunter in our raid that isn't even doing auto-attack level damage (seriously, if this guy just right clicked the boss and walked away from the computer he would probably do more damage) and you can't help but wonder if they are even pushing buttons at this point, how are they at their limit? Is driving a car the pinnacle of what this person can ever hope to achieve? Is crossing the street this person's limit?

I acknowledge that people have limits. I'm refering to the people who aren't even within a mile of that limit, never mind an inch.

[Hullabaloo]

Great. But why do so few people actually try and push past that limit? Why do some people not even hit anything resembling a limit, and then expect a carry? When we have a hunter in our raid that isn't even doing auto-attack level damage (seriously, if this guy just right clicked the boss and walked away from the computer he would probably do more damage) and you can't help but wonder if they are even pushing buttons at this point, how are they at their limit? Is driving a car the pinnacle of what this person can ever hope to achieve? Is crossing the street this person's limit?

I acknowledge that people have limits. I'm refering to the people who aren't even within a mile of that limit, never mind an inch.

People are way to scared to fail or look bad. They would rather be carried for an hour then try for an hour, fail a few times and end up at a better, higher, endpoint.

I blame a society that won't tell a kid he sucks at something, which he truly sucks at. A society where failure is a bad word, that few are allow to experience it, leads to fear of the unknown (failure).

[Karoht]

People are way to scared to fail or look bad. They would rather be carried for an hour then try for an hour, fail a few times and end up at a better, higher, endpoint.

I blame a society that won't tell a kid he sucks at something, which he truly sucks at. A society where failure is a bad word, that few are allow to experience it, leads to fear of the unknown (failure).

People are scared to look bad so they would rather look bad by being carried and being called out for being bad? Bwah? Maybe I'm reading that a bit too simplistically.

I get the 'fear of failure' but you don't get over fear of failure by failing harder on purpose.

[Traab]

People are scared to look bad so they would rather look bad by being carried and being called out for being bad? Bwah? Maybe I'm reading that a bit too simplistically.

I get the 'fear of failure' but you don't get over fear of failure by failing harder on purpose.

Actually, this is wrong, if you fail by not trying, then that doesnt mean you arent good enough, it means you didnt try. There is a big difference in not being good enough, and not trying. You can still console yourself with lines like, "If I had tried I could have done it." Its like the last refuge for someone who is scared that they arent good enough. They can always let themselves believe that if they just tried they could do it. They cant bring themselves to honestly try their best because of the fear of failing. The fear of confirming that they honestly arent good enough.

[Karoht]

Actually, this is wrong, if you fail by not trying, then that doesnt mean you arent good enough, it means you didnt try. There is a big difference in not being good enough, and not trying. You can still console yourself with lines like, "If I had tried I could have done it." Its like the last refuge for someone who is scared that they arent good enough. They can always let themselves believe that if they just tried they could do it. They cant bring themselves to honestly try their best because of the fear of failing. The fear of confirming that they honestly arent good enough.

That is actually a good way to look at that.

It's a poor (and highly paraphrased I'm sure) maxim but...
Failure to try is trying to fail.

[Zherog]

I acknowledge that people have limits. I'm refering to the people who aren't even within a mile of that limit, never mind an inch.

Well, I did say it was tangentially related... ;)

[Leon]

This is honestly one of the only issues I ever hear you discuss.
Is it THAT hard to level a character to 85 on another server and then get them? Seriously? I mean, if you want to play on another server so bad, why is this a stumbling block? You've complained about it for easily 2 years, by now you could have just leveled to 85 and spent the meager amount of time picking them up with justice points. If that's the sort of thing you quit a game over...

They keep saying they're going to fix this, and with account bound mounts and achievements in MoP that sounds likely, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

That and leveling is pretty darned easy now. You really don't need Heirloom items these days. I find you level too fast with them anyway.

Apparently you don't read any of the other things i have talked about over time, i typically only mention it when i am finished for a time.

As to why because i have alts stuck on assorted servers that i don't want to have to re roll or pay US$25 to move and i hardly do have spare JP to spend on them until i have the main characters on those servers geared to my satisfaction.

I haven't quit over it - i have been playing for the last four months on free game time - the last time card expired on Friday and i cant afford to actually pay for the game myself at the moment. I expect to be back to see the end of the Expac to see what they do and to see the dawn of the pandapocalypse.

[Hullabaloo]

Good way to put it traab. If failure is not Experienced its because you were not encouraged to push the limits. Play it safe and always win mentality.

[Elm11]

Well, I've so far powerlevel'd my druid to 72 (I've been going at about 5-7 levels a day for the last three days). I've discovered druid healing to be tonnes of fun, and made much easier by the fact I'm now using mouse-over-heal macros.

[MechaKingGhidra]

I've been thinking about getting back to healing, maybe even my old paladin main again, but I keep getting discouraged because I'm far too susceptible to information overload because there are SO many changes from when I played up until roughly 2 weeks into Ulduar content. I played this particular character ever since BC launched and I played a different paladin for a tad leading up to said launch.

Not that terribly long ago when I was reading a WoW Insider article giving news of how the game will explain different changes being made to whatever class you play and...heck with it. Y'know what? I'm just going to copy/paste my comment from there into a spoiler below because I honestly can't put it any better than that.

Spoiler

Show

Anything that simplifies classes gets a thumbs-up from me.

I am likely in the minority but information overload is what puts me off from learning most classes/specs.

I played a paladin healer when it was the simplest healing and I liked it. Was it kind of a cheap way to do things? Only if you, personally, are capable of much more that what was required at the time. Me? I was able to actually be effective and not get screamed at because I couldn't handle the more complex rotations, prioritization, etc.

I play fire *right now* since, as far as I am concerned, it is the simplest mage spec. Arcane? I don't buy into that "1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2, 2...." crap. You actually have to be very careful and frost is more detail-orientated so fire is the one for me.

I might get hated on for this but y'know what? I'm happy I'm able to play this game and I don't give a flying **** about all this min/max, server first, or any other stuff that is somehow a way to justify calling me derogatory comments if I am not friggin' perfect in a rackin' frackin' GAME!

So, yeah, simplifying classes is greatly welcomed and appreciated.

It certainly isn't for a lack of trying to learn and adjust. I just simply cannot wrap my head around a lot of things.

[Mutant Sheep]

Healing non heroics seems to actually be a simple thing. And dungeons are stupidly easy with a half decent group. Tank has aggro? Cool, healer can focus on him and you can have one of the dpsers do emergency heals. IT WORKS BUT I DON'T SEE IT MUCH.

[Dublock]

As a healer, I tend to be sad when I do dungeons because of failure to do mechanics, dps pulling, or tank doesn't understand the use of a CD. Yea I have been told before that I must suck if a tank has to hit a CD.

As a dps, if I pull threat I will kill it quickly and if a mob is attacking the healer, bye bye mob.

[Talesin]

As an example, in TBC, there was a dungeon called the Shadow Labyrinth.

Heroic Slabs was honestly one of the greatest experiences i've ever had in WoW. The run took about 3-4 hours, which was fine back in the day as I had plenty of time, and was such an insane challenge for myself and the people I played with. But going in there with a group of randoms or even 1 random made it a pain beyond all belief. I know the room you're talking about, the one before the 2nd boss, and I had to respec survival so we could actually do the room.

Our gear was fairly terrible but we had 1 sheeped, 1 trapped, 1 sleep stung (I wanna say wyvern sting but its been forever since i've played wow) and I kited one while the rest of my group killed the mobs as best they could. That actually wasn't a hard pack, if you got the pull right and didn't have any idiots spamming aoe, but if a thunderclap broke a trap then you're screwed. I think we actually ended up pulling the mob group right back into the room with the first boss.

However after the first time its really not as fun, especially if you don't have a group of friends to do it with. Having to drag some mouth-breathing "I need to living bomb everything to get max deeps" fire mage who breaks all CC through any kind of content eventually made me quit. Though i've still got fond memories of Ulduar hard modes, Escape from Durnehold heroic, slabs heroic, Kara, Gruul and trying to down Magtheridon with a 4th tank in mostly blue gear.

I would say though I am definitely in the camp of "it has to be challenging to be fun" but I would also comment that if any sort of run took 4 hours to do now days then there would be no way I could even think about playing that kind of game as I don't have the time.