Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[SinsI]

Do we have any idea what enabled Xykon to cast Still Meteor Swarm while grappled?

For me, only Automatic Still Spell x3 comes to mind, and that would shoot his level into thirties.

[Kish]

My guess (which I am not saying should be listed as the official explanation in this thread, don't worry), is that Xykon was empowered by a dose of "Rich doesn't care that much about the fine points of the grappling rules, so that being able to cast without moving was enough."

[Douglas]

My guess (which I am not saying should be listed as the official explanation in this thread, don't worry), is that Xykon was empowered by a dose of "Rich doesn't care that much about the fine points of the grappling rules, so that being able to cast without moving was enough."

Yeah, the "can't use somatic components" rule is pretty obvious and well known, while the "standard action or less" rule is not and the "spontaneous metamagic increases casting time" rule is widely disliked and often ignored by house rule. Both of the rules involved that would normally prevent Xykon casting Still Meteor Swarm in a grapple have reasons why Rich might ignore them, and only one needs to be ignored for it to work.

I actually think this should be listed as a likely explanation, or even the leading one, but the basis for it is so thoroughly subjective speculation that arguing for a disputed tag on it would be trivial. As the thread stands right now, I'd say put "Rich ignored a rule" up as an undisputed explanation. Add a disputed tag if and when 2 or 3 people speak up to say to add it.

[Dark Matter]

Ditto what Kish said. That Still (the feat which lets you cast spells while being grappled) doesn't let Sorcerers cast spells while being grappled is obscure (and IMHO, absurd. It just begs for a overruling house rule.)

I don't think we can use it as evidence as anything other than Xykon casting a 10th level spell.

[EmperorSarda]

Please add to that: "Non-core, and Xykon's other personally invented spells which had alterations from the listed spells where labeled 'Xykon's XYZ'."

I've added that it's not core, but you are incorrect about all such spells being labeled "Xykon's <whatever>".

If you are referring to the Force cage, it is clearly named as Xykon's.

[Math_Mage]

None of the discussion above changes the facts, which is that the evidence for Xykon being below 27 is all bad (and inapplicable, since to apply it would allow a dispute about anything for which there "could be" an alternate theory; i.e. anything). The tag should be removed, or some kind of explanation should be given because, as some of us have pointed out, the "below 27" side doesn't even have a complete thought at this stage, let alone a superior argument.

You should consider being less unpleasant to people who disagree with you. Explanations have been constructed to explain the conflict in Xykon's power level within the narrative, primarily because people were willing to talk it out in a reasonable fashion, rather than declaring that the other side is without a coherent thought. You're not going to make progress by trying to batter the other side into submission, right or wrong.

(also this thread got closed once already and I'd hate to see a flame war provoked over Xykon's power level)

[Once&FutureKing]

People gave reasons, but as people like Dark Matter & myself pointed out:
a) It was logically more sound to accept our reasons, because ours are consistent with things like occam's razor, while their reasons require huge presumptions which are not supported in the comic, and
b) The logic their reasoning used could be equally applied to put a "dispute" tag on nearly every claim the characters stat sheets make.

My attitude has nothing to do with whether my position is correct; and it clearly is. Frankly I'm not keen on a lecture from a group of people who were so adamant they were correct about things like Xykon getting backlash damage, only to subsequently concede they were in fact wrong (with no apology).

NB And btw, I didn't say they were without a "coherent" thought, rather I was referencing Dark Matter's earlier remark, that they were without a "complete" thought, because they couldn't explain Superb Dispelling adequately.

What are we waiting on here Oceanic?

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, the "can't use somatic components" rule is pretty obvious and well known, while the "standard action or less" rule is not and the "spontaneous metamagic increases casting time" rule is widely disliked and often ignored by house rule.

Do you have evidence for that? Because it strikes me that people rarely agree about which parts of RAW are popular and which ones are not.

Further to create a +30 item you need someone with 30 ranks in that skill (a level 27 thing).

+30 isn't needed; +14 is enough to tie those three feats.

His item isn't a potion, scroll, armor, weapon, staff, or rod.

Why not?

And I don't think Xykon crafted anything before becoming a lich, so it's possible that he took a craft feat after becoming undead.

(edit) and updated the "disputed points" post based on the above. I think I'm going to move that to the FAQ, it's easier to find there.

[Flame of Anor]

Do you have evidence for that? Because it strikes me that people rarely agree about which parts of RAW are popular and which ones are not.

Just anecdotally, in my group we:

• play the increased casting time rule
• have not encountered a situation calling for the somatic-components rule
• have not AFAIK even heard of the standard-action rule

[SinsI]

How useful are 3x Improved Spell Capacity feats to a Lich Sorcerer that specializes in destruction? And while we are at it, 3x Automated Still Spell as well? Are they worth spending your best and most powerful feats?

[RMS Oceanic]

Today's comic (834) shows that Haley was left a Scroll of Sending, with the intention of casting it. This demonstrates that she has the Use Magic Device skill. Consulting the rules in question:

Use a Scroll
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

Emulate an Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

The DC to cast Sending with UMD is 25 and (if she needs it) the DC to emulate a Wisdom of 15 is 30. Since we don't know her wisdom, I'd calculate that she has a minimum of 6 ranks in UMD, to roll 20 + 6 + 4 for her maximum calculated charisma at this time.

EDIT: Disregard, Haley doesn't actually say what the spell is, so all we can confirm is at least one rank in UMD.

[Kish]

We knew that from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails.

[Kurald Galain]

I've added UMD to Haley. Speaking of skills, I think comic 670 shows that O-Chul has Spellcraft. Also, Kilkil has an item: his glasses. Should we add a comic link for Tarquin's helmet and dagger?

(edit) also, Elan has castanets and a treasure chest.

[RMS Oceanic]

We knew that from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails.

True, but it's always nice to have a comic to link to.

I've added UMD to Haley. Speaking of skills, I think comic 670 shows that O-Chul has Spellcraft. Also, Kilkil has an item: his glasses. Should we add a comic link for Tarquin's helmet and dagger?

1. Does it count when the standard method of spell casting is saying the spell name?
2. Good catches. Added.

[Kurald Galain]

1. Does it count when the standard method of spell casting is saying the spell name?

Considering a comic from DCF shows that a fighter still can't detect a DC 21 trap even when being hit in the face with it, I'd say yes.

Unless you want to argue that we should add the spell "Apparently" to V's spellbook?

[RMS Oceanic]

Considering a comic from DCF shows that a fighter still can't detect a DC 21 trap even when being hit in the face with it, I'd say yes.

Unless you want to argue that we should add the spell "Apparently" to V's spellbook?

Ah yes, I forgot that page. Spellcraft for O-Chul!

[Once&FutureKing]

{{scrubbed}}

[lord_khaine]

Still waiting for explanation of why a disputed tag is justified.

Still waiting for you to accept the first explanation of why the tag is required.

[Once&FutureKing]

{{scrubbed}}

[RMS Oceanic]

O&FK, I don't feel you've adequately rebutted the arguments against Explanation A, and while those arguments hold up to scrutiny without any additional evidence from Rich, then the explanation is legitimately disputed. Picking one side and ignoring the others is not a viable way to resolve a dispute.

Also I would advise you to calm down a little. It may just be me, but some of your posts come off as agressive, and I'd hate for this thread to pop up on the Mods' radar again.

[Dark Matter]

Do you have evidence for that? Because it strikes me that people rarely agree about which parts of RAW are popular and which ones are not.

The Alternative is to give Xykon 3x Automatic Still Spell, which I don't think anyone seriously wants.

+30 isn't needed; +14 is enough to tie those three feats.

It's a problem, and seriously non-core, to create a non-epic item greatly superior to a core epic item.

Why not?

Because we don't see a rod, staff, armor, or weapon. I'm not sure if Lichs can use potions, but regardless without knowing Darth-V was coming Xykon couldn't have used a scroll or potion to prep.

And I don't think Xykon crafted anything before becoming a lich, so it's possible that he took a craft feat after becoming undead.

Giving him a 6th post-20 feat raises his minimum level to... um... I think 29.

[Douglas]

Do you have evidence for that? Because it strikes me that people rarely agree about which parts of RAW are popular and which ones are not.

For knowledge of "standard action or less in a grapple", I'd have to conduct a survey to have solid evidence but I'm pretty confident what the result would be. I'd expect most people to say they were not aware of that restriction, and I'd expect most of the rest (on these forums) to say (provided you ask) that they learned of it because of discussion about Xykon's Still Meteor Swarm.

For popularity of "spontaneous metamagic increases casting time", over the years of my membership on these forums I have seen many posts by many different posters expressing a dislike of it, often accompanied by stating their group ignores it by house rule. I have seen comparatively few posts stating they follow it because it's RAW, and I don't think I've seen any posts saying the poster actually likes the rule (possibly excepting cases where someone's abusing it in combination with Arcane Spellsurge). I realize this is merely anecdotal evidence, but there it is.

[EmperorSarda]

Speaking of skills, I think comic 670 shows that O-Chul has Spellcraft.

However, O-Chul did speak with the most knowledgeable scribe that was with the fleet, concerning information on their foes and perhaps how he escaped.

So he might not have Spellcraft and was only able to make that list with the help of the Scribe.

[Dark Matter]

O&FK, I don't feel you've adequately rebutted the arguments against Explanation A, and while those arguments hold up to scrutiny without any additional evidence from Rich, then the explanation is legitimately disputed.

What arguments? The rebuttal arguments against Ex-A have themselves been called into question. Further, and much worse, the other theories are incomplete, actively disproven, or rely on a series of major one off assumptions.

Let's just review:
Theory A: Counter Evidence was both Durkon's dispel and OChul's list.... which are both nicely explained by Xykon using a scroll.

Theory B: He uses a Rod of Metamagic (and really it should be "He uses Two Rods of Metamagic" since we've got a 10th and 12th level spells). These rods are never seen, mentioned, and he can switch between them while he's being grappled. There is NO PROOF for this at all.

Theory C: He uses the Sudden Maximize Feat
Actively disproven; Xykon cast two maximized spells in the same scene the same way.

And after that Theory A nicely explains Superb Dispelling, while B & C get progressively worse. Having assumed an invisible unmentioned rod for Maximized, do we assume another for Still and yet another (epic no less) to pump up his spellcraft for Superb Dispelling? Should we give him two more epic feats so he can craft epic Wondrous Items and create seriously plot effecting but unmentioned non-core items?

[Psyren]

My guess (which I am not saying should be listed as the official explanation in this thread, don't worry), is that Xykon was empowered by a dose of "Rich doesn't care that much about the fine points of the grappling rules, so that being able to cast without moving was enough."

I agree that this is likely what caused the discrepancy; I just wanted to point out that (if he wanted to) Rich could easily and retroactively explain this, by giving Xykon the PHB2 ACF that has a sorcerer give up their familiar for the ability to apply metamagic without increasing their casting time.

It would also explain why Xykon has no familiar, and even fit in with his personality. But I have no hard evidence.

EDIT: By the evils that was a run-on sentence. I'm too tired, but I hope that's a little better.

[zimmerwald1915]

I agree that this is likely what caused the discrepancy; I just wanted to point out that (if he wanted to) Rich could easily and retroactively explain this by giving Xykon that PHB2 ACF that has a sorcerer give up their familiar for the ability to apply metamagic without increasing the casting time of their spells.

It would also explain why Xykon has no familiar, and even fit in with his personality. But I have no hard evidence.

The ACF is called "Metamagic Specialist" and it would indeed fit. Shame it's noncore (though since the X v. V fight took place late in DStP that might not be as big a stumbling block).

[Once&FutureKing]

What arguments? The rebuttal arguments against Ex-A have themselves been called into question. Further, and much worse, the other theories are incomplete, actively disproven, or rely on a series of major one off assumptions.

Let's just review:
Theory A: Counter Evidence was both Durkon's dispel and OChul's list.... which are both nicely explained by Xykon using a scroll.

Theory B: He uses a Rod of Metamagic (and really it should be "He uses Two Rods of Metamagic" since we've got a 10th and 12th level spells). These rods are never seen, mentioned, and he can switch between them while he's being grappled. There is NO PROOF for this at all.

Theory C: He uses the Sudden Maximize Feat
Actively disproven; Xykon cast two maximized spells in the same scene the same way.

And after that Theory A nicely explains Superb Dispelling, while B & C get progressively worse. Having assumed an invisible unmentioned rod for Maximized, do we assume another for Still and yet another (epic no less) to pump up his spellcraft for Superb Dispelling? Should we give him two more epic feats so he can craft epic Wondrous Items and create seriously plot effecting but unmentioned non-core items?

I literally have no idea how the two positions (ours v.s theirs) are remotely comparable in terms of merit.

Everytime someone casts a spell or does any feat or action in the comic, we could construct an argument that is without support or reference in the comic and say "hey, it could be possible" this is the explanation. Sure it could be, but it's not frickin likely is it, and we have no reason to assume it! I have no reason to assume V casts every disintegrate using an unseen rod, so I don't assume it, because I apply the simplest explanation, not the most right field one I can find. It's called Occam's razor.

Really, at this point it just seems you're siding against to appease one side, regardless of the merit of their arguments, so you can say "it's disputed, everybody wins". This is disappointing.

Maybe we should bump V's level back to 13. I have a random and unsupported theory that V used a special homebrew "stun" spell, aided by invisible rods we can't see. I am genuinely curious what you feel the difference is between this and the Xykon 21 arguments, since they're conceptually the same, and you're not going to grant me a disputed tag for V or anyone else. I assume from this that arguments don't matter, just numbers, and if 6 people support my view about V's level it will somehow gain intellectual merit.

[Math_Mage]

People gave reasons, but as people like Dark Matter & myself pointed out:

Not my point!

Have you considered looking at the reason people are so reluctant to peg Xykon as 27+? Walking a step (never mind a whole mile) in their shoes? At the heart of it, it's not a rules issue. It's a narrative issue. Level 27+ Xykon has no business being as weak as he is for most of the story, and has no plausible way to level up to 27 in the middle of the story. So people want to find ways to reconcile Xykon's apparent 27+ power in the latter part of the story with his apparent <27 approach at the beginning, even if they're not very GOOD ways, because people would prefer shaky rules decisions to an inconsistent narrative.

However, as has been pointed out, it IS very difficult to reconcile those two positions. This eventually led to the entirely reasonable and largely accepted conclusion laid out a few pages back, that Rich didn't intend Xykon to be so powerful at the beginning, and radically scaled him up in order to avoid having to replace him with another BBEG.

All your repetitive bashing about how no position other than your own has merit didn't accomplish that. People who were willing to understand each other accomplished that.

All you're doing by being so abrasively self-assertive is provoking more people to disagree with you, because right or wrong, nobody wants to agree with someone who's being an intellectual bully. You should seriously consider modifying your approach--that is, if you actually care about accomplishing your stated goal of removing that 'disputed' tag. If all you want to do is continue to prove to yourself how right you are, how much smarter you are than the people who disagree with you, then by all means keep posting with that same attitude. I hope you have fun doing that, because you're ruining everyone else's enjoyment of this thread.

[Once&FutureKing]

I realise you think that was a devastating comeback... but when you post stuff like this, you're just proving my point:

At the heart of it, it's not a rules issue. It's a narrative issue.

I mean seriously Oceanic? This is the sort of argument we're being told we didn't "adequately refute"? The "narrative" of the story, and not the rules?

[Math_Mage]

I realise you think that was a devastating comeback...

I'm not even trying to make a comeback against the rules right now. I'm not particularly invested in either side of this debate--in fact, as a matter of rules, I prefer the "Xykon is 27+" position.

But I'm frankly embarrassed to admit that because it puts me on the same side of the debate as you. Your behavior in this thread has actually driven me away from your position, for all I agree with the logic you espouse. Think about that for a moment before deciding on an attitude when you reply.