Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[zimmerwald1915]

While I'm sure Nergal offers the Death and Destruction domains, if he offers only two domains, he's the only god I know of who offers so few.

Don't most gods offer the domains corresponding to their alignment, plus two or three others?

[Kish]

Don't most gods offer the domains corresponding to their alignment, plus two or three others?

Yes.

So Nergal almost certainly offers Law. Depending on his actual alignment, he may also offer Evil. Death. Destruction. ???. ???. We have no indication which two of those domains Malack picked.

[SinsI]

Or that he really really wanted to prepare something else in his fifth-level domain slot. Not that Nergal granting the Air domain, despite his wings, is terribly likely.

On another note, it looks like a full-fledged fight is developing, which is another opportunity to tally damage! So far we have:

6d6 acid + 6d6 acid + 9d6 acid + 6d6-30 acid + 9d6-30 acid + 9d6-30 acid + 3d6 falling (24-198)
6d6 acid + 6d6 acid + 9d6 acid + 6d6-30 acid + 9d6-30 acid + 9d6-30 acid + 3d6 falling (24-198)
6d6 acid + 6d6 acid + 9d6 acid + 6d6-30 acid + 9d6-30 acid + 9d6-30 acid + 3d6 falling (24-198)
9d6 acid + 9d6-30 acid + 9d6-30 acid + 3d6 falling (12-120)
3d6 falling (3-18)
7d6 falling/bludgeoning (7-42)

The source of the acid damage is obvious. As for the falling damage, the highest a Carpet of Flying, with its 40 ft. fly speed and average maneuverability, can fly in one round is 35 feet.

V's total damage is 7d6 because rock crushing traps and pit traps deal damage expressed in d6s, and her minimum HP total at level 15 total is 39.

There are two versions of vitriolic sphere in 3.5 - one in Spell Compendium, the other in Complete Arcane. They deal different amount of damage(and also differ in saves and wording ambiguity), so we can't be sure of the version used here.

[Chronos]

And we've seen spells differ from their Spell Compendium versions before, too: Tsukiko's Orb spells were explicitly evocations, not conjurations.

On the topic of genre-savviness, I personally suspect that it's a Cha-based skill. Elan and Tarquin would then have maxed out ranks in it, while Xykon has 0 (or 1, if trained only) rank, but still gets a good check due to his monstrously-high Cha. But that's only a hypothesis, and I agree that until we get some in-comic indication that there's a mechanic behind it, that we should leave it out of this thread.

[hamishspence]

And we've seen spells differ from their Spell Compendium versions before, too: Tsukiko's Orb spells were explicitly evocations, not conjurations.

The earliest versions of the Orb spells (in the Tome & Blood 3.0 splatbook) were in fact evocations- raising the possibility that this book was where they came from.

[Chronos]

A thought: The link for Durkon's alignment is currently to a message-board post by the Giant. Would it be preferable to have a link to a comic? Because 844 says that he has "the same alignment as a paladin".

[RMS Oceanic]

But Haley didn't specify whether she was talking about a Paladin of Honor, Freedom, Tyranny or Slaughter!

Seriously, I agree that I'd prefer to have in-comic proof where available, like how we updated Belkar's alignment from Rich's statement to his own.

[Kish]

I would venture that Roy's statement that "paladin=definitionally one of the Good Guys" should constitute in-comic evidence that the variant paladins from Unearthed Arcana (or is it Arcana Unearthed? I can never remember...) are not in the comic.

[Myou]

I would venture that Roy's statement that "paladin=definitionally one of the Good Guys" should constitute in-comic evidence that the variant paladins from Unearthed Arcana (or is it Arcana Unearthed? I can never remember...) are not in the comic.

To his knowledge.

Redcloak wasn't sure if psionics existed, so Roy certainly wouldn't know for sure that other optional rules were in play.

Not that it matters anyway, since Rich told us Durkon is LG.

[Kurald Galain]

And we've seen spells differ from their Spell Compendium versions before, too: Tsukiko's Orb spells were explicitly evocations, not conjurations.

Well, the Giant seems to handwave a lot of spell effects. We've also seen Teleport bring along more people than it should, Break Enchantment have a shorter casting time, and Mass Death Ward being a lower level than in print. So we should at least be hesitant about any theories that rely on the minutiae of spell effects. This may be something for the FAQ, too.

On the topic of genre-savviness, I personally suspect that it's a Cha-based skill.

I don't really see what savviness has to do with charisma (other than that the most savvy person in the comic happens to have a high charisma). I'd say it's int-based and trained only. Perhaps Elan's prestige class gives a bonus to savviness checks.

I agree that until we get some in-comic indication that there's a mechanic behind it, that we should leave it out of this thread.

Of course, but it's a fun topic.

A thought: The link for Durkon's alignment is currently to a message-board post by the Giant. Would it be preferable to have a link to a comic? Because 844 says that he has "the same alignment as a paladin".

Yes, links to the online comics are preferable where possible. And regardless of whether other-aligned paladins exist in the OOTSverse, the gist of comic 844 is clearly that Durkon is Lawful Good.

[Tempeststurm]

I don't know if I'm picking over a particular phrasing too closely, but I'll suggest it anyway.

In strip 249, Belkar says "I took Craft Disturbing Mental Image as my feat last level". Since neither ranger or barbarian get bonus feats, this means his last level must be a multiple of 3, so his current level in that strip is 13 or 16. Of those, it's almost certainly 13 (otherwise he'd need to jump from 12 to 16 across a hundred strips and then not level up since), but I can't prove it for definite.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know if I'm picking over a particular phrasing too closely, but I'll suggest it anyway.

In strip 249, Belkar says "I took Craft Disturbing Mental Image as my feat last level". Since neither ranger or barbarian get bonus feats, this means his last level must be a multiple of 3, so his current level in that strip is 13 or 16. Of those, it's almost certainly 13 (otherwise he'd need to jump from 12 to 16 across a hundred strips and then not level up since), but I can't prove it for definite.

"Last level" means "last level-up". So he's either 12 or 15 in that strip, because his last level-up would have granted him the level he'd need to take a feat. 12 makes more sense for the same reasons 13 does.

[RMS Oceanic]

"Last level" could mean "The last time I gained a level", i.e. going from 11 to 12.

[zimmerwald1915]

Speaking of which, there apparently exists somewhere (though I've been unable to find it) an FAQ stating that the Order was between levels 7 and 9 when the strip began. In light of this, I propose that the table in Kurald's OP be changed the the following:

{table]Level||||||
9|12|12|12|12|12|12
10|124|125|124|124|124|124
11|251|???|201|???|???|186
12|???, 665|249|???|???|477|???
13|485, -|???|556|393|511|397
14|-|???|-|647|???|627
15|-|???|-|-|615|716
16|-|748|-|-|-|-[/table]

V demonstrates have leveled to 11 by 186 by casting Disintegrate, her first level 6 spell, for the first time. Durkon demonstrates the same by casting Heal on Roy. Belkar demonstrates having leveled to 12 in 249 by claiming to have taken a feat "last level", and by the Giant stating he's level 12 in his description of the Miko fight. Roy demonstrates having leveled to 11 in 251 by getting three attacks per round (per the Giant's description of the Miko fight), though really he, and the rest of the Order, should be leveling along with Belkar and Vaarsuvius at this point. similarly, Haley demonstrates having leveled to 12 in 477 by using Ranged Pin on Roy's corpse, though she really should be level 13 by then.

If we accept the rule that party members who travel together level together, the table becomes much easier to fill up. For instance:
{table]Level||||||
9|12|12|12|12|12|12
10|124|125|124|124|124|124
11|186 (251)|186|186 (201)|186|186|186
12|249, 665|249|249|249|249 (477)|249
13|397 (485), 716|397|397 (556)|393|397 (511)|397
14|748|???|627|627 (647)|???|627
15|-|615|716|716|615|716
16|-|748|748|748|748|748[/table]

Where levels that are assumed from other party members having leveled are in italics, and confirmed levels derived from a party member's statement about themselves or another character's statement about them (read: Eugene's "highest level...") are in regular typeface and in parentheses. This method, however, loses some of its predictive power when discussing levels after DStP. Specifically, it makes Durkon level 16 in strip 748 when his maximum level is established at 15 in strip 806. A modified version of the rule, which states that characters who split from the rest of the party at any point (read: Elan on the Mechane, Roy once he died, and V/Durkon and Haley/Belkar thanks to Captain Axe) level on their own. This would mean that V and Durkon (until V leaves) and Haley and Belkar (until Haley's captured by Enor and Ganjii) level together, but that these pair's levels bear no relationship to one another, or to Roy's and Elan's. Like so:

{table]Level||||||
9|12|12|12|12|12|12
10|124|125|124|124|124|124
11|186 (251)|186|186 (201)|186|186|186
12|249, 665|249|249|249|249 (477)|249
13|397 (485), -|397|397 (556)|393|397 (511)|397
14|-|???|-|647|???|627
15|-|615|-|-|615|716
16|-|748|-|-|-|-[/table]

This rule, as concretized on the above table gives a level spread of:
Roy: 12
Belkar: 16
Durkon: 13
Elan: 14
Haley: 15
V: 15

Application of this rule can establish that all the party members leveled together until just before the Battle for Azure City (an assumption this thread has worked under for a long time) and can give the same levels we've established as being the characters's minimum. Of course, since the party's split six ways by now, it cannot be used to predict future level-ups, or to correlate any party member's level with any other party member's.

[Gift Jeraff]

Speaking of which, there apparently exists somewhere (though I've been unable to find it) an FAQ stating that the Order was between levels 7 and 9 when the strip began.

Here.

[Arcanus81]

I don't really see what savviness has to do with charisma (other than that the most savvy person in the comic happens to have a high charisma). I'd say it's int-based and trained only. Perhaps Elan's prestige class gives a bonus to savviness checks.

The Giant recently tweeted the following:

@mouseferatu I was working on OOTS d20 book, then WOTC announced 4th edition and I mothballed it. Would've had a bard ACF for genre savvy!

So "Genre Savvy" could (maybe, possibly) be listed as an Alternate Class Feature used by Elan.

[RMS Oceanic]

That was an interesting little snippet. However, I'm not sure "This ACF exists" translates to "Elan has this ACF" reliably, and since we don't know what exactly it does, we can't peg down with 100% accuracy that Elan has it.

[Kurald Galain]

Speaking of which, there apparently exists somewhere (though I've been unable to find it) an FAQ stating that the Order was between levels 7 and 9 when the strip began.

That's a good point.

Does anyone recall why earlier Geekery threads pegged the Order's level at 10 in episode 1?

If we accept the rule that party members who travel together level together, the table becomes much easier to fill up.

I think we can accept this since we've seen the Order level up as a group twice; but later in the comic it becomes problematic. You gain experience points from overcoming challenges; so at the point where the party fragments enough that different members face different challenges, I don't think we can assume they still have the same XP. I'm thinking in particular of Elan's imprisonment: in that arc, Elan escaped from prison, found his way back to the city, and battled Nale while the rest of the party fought Thog and later a roc, and then the whole OOTS fights the Linear Guild, except Roy who is asleep at the time. Of course it gets even more divergent after Roy dies.

So "Genre Savvy" could (maybe, possibly) be listed as an Alternate Class Feature used by Elan.

Possibly.

The PHB bard has the following class features: bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage. I think we've seen Elan use all of these except countersong. So the ACF could be a replacement for that.

...that's still speculation, though. And in SSDT, Haley ascribes Elan's following of genre conventions to his class in general, not an an ACF. I think Tarquin made a similar statement.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's a good point.

Does anyone recall why earlier Geekery threads pegged the Order's level at 10 in episode 1?

They didn't, as far as I know, though I have not seen the very first iteration of this thread (does it still exist?). Trying to track the Order's level over time, as opposed to the Order's level as of the most recent comic, is an innovation. As for why I pegged their starting level as 10 when compiling the table, I counted backwards from 13 for the Battle of Azure City and added another level in the middle because the level-up in panel 12 was an odd level. And 10 seemed elegant.

I think we can accept this since we've seen the Order level up as a group twice; but later in the comic it becomes problematic. You gain experience points from overcoming challenges; so at the point where the party fragments enough that different members face different challenges, I don't think we can assume they still have the same XP. I'm thinking in particular of Elan's imprisonment: in that arc, Elan escaped from prison, found his way back to the city, and battled Nale while the rest of the party fought Thog and later a roc, and then the whole OOTS fights the Linear Guild, except Roy who is asleep at the time. Of course it gets even more divergent after Roy dies.

Yes, the rule applied straight does lead to all sorts of conflict with what we know about the Order's level after the Battle of Azure City. That's why I proposed the modified rule that once a party member splits from the party, their XP no longer tracks with the rest. The modified rule allows us to level the party together up to 13 in time for the Battle of Azure City, and to level them separately (apart from Belkar's and Haley's leveling to 15 together) thereafter. But I get why such a rule would be controversial.

The first table I presented, however, should not be controversial, since it proposes no changes in method and brings the timeline into harmony with Word of Giant. It should replace the table as it stands in the OP ASAP, so that discussion can focus on the tables constructed with the level-together rule, in particularly the second (since the first is, in the case of Durkon, objectively wrong).

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, and there is a geekery argument to be made that Roy should have advanced to level 13 by this point in the story. Unlike most arguments that are made here, this one actually works by counting XP!

We know Roy's XP total at the time he was resurrected was 72,000 XP. Resurrection brings back a character midway between the XP necessary to earn the level at which they were brought back and the level they had attained prior to dying. D&D 3.5 characters level to 12 and 66,000 XP, and to 13 at 78,000 XP. So Roy was resurrected at 72,000 XP.

We can then complie a list of encounters in which Roy took part since his resurrection. I have identified four, so far, that can unambiguously be construed as granting Roy XP: the encounter with the slavers, the encounter with the Purple Worm, the encounter with Girard's explosion trap, and the encounter with Thog. Here's how the XP breaks down:

We don't know anything about the slavers, or about Buggy Lou apart from the fact that he appears to be wearing a holy symbol. Making the generic slavers regular ol' thri-kreen, and Buggy Lou a thri-kreen Cleric 1, means they're all too-low CR for Roy to have gained XP from defeating them. However, we know they ride 4 to a giant stag beetle and that they expect these stag beetles to carry away additional cargo in the form of captured slaves. We have grounds to advance the giant stag beetles to Huge size, and thus CR 6 each. That is high enough that Roy would gain XP from them. There were six advanced giant stag beetles present at the fight, which translates into 450 XP for Roy. He's now up to 72,650.

The purple worm is easy. It's one creature, with a known CR, that doesn't need to be advanced to give Roy XP. Its defeat gives Roy 600 XP. He's now at 73,050.

The explosion trap's a little difficult to assign a CR to, because we do not know which spell created it. But it acts enough like a Glyph of Warding (even though it cannot be since V did not see an Abjuration aura with Arcane Sight) that I feel comfortable assigning it a CR of 7. Surviving it gives Roy another 100 XP. He's up to 73,150.

And now the big one. I'm calling Thog a CR 13 threat, since he should really match Roy in class levels. His singlehanded defeat by Roy should give Roy 5,400 XP. That would advance Roy to 78,550, putting Roy over the 78,000 needed to level to 13.

And this is not even counting story awards for, for instance, tracking down Enor and Ganjii, finding Ian and Geoff, learning the truth about Tarquin, learning Tarquin's story about Orrin and the location of Windy Canyon, finding his way through the maze, bypassing the traps on the way up the ziggurat, or finding Girard's corpse. It's just counting fights, and not even all possible fights. It does not include Roy's smacking down Belkar (which if it did grant XP would have granted Roy 14,400 XP in one shot, and put him well on the way to level 14!), or the bar fight Roy started.

In light of this analysis, I would like to propose that Roy's minimum level be changed to 13+, and that the table be changed to read as follows:

{table]Level||||||
9|12|12|12|12|12|12
10|124|125|124|124|124|124
11|251|???|201|???|???|186
12|???, 665|249|???|???|477|???
13|485, 809|???|556|393|511|397
14|-|???|-|647|???|627
15|-|???|-|-|615|716
16|-|748|-|-|-|-[/table]

[sgtpimenta]

So, which level do you guys think Roy is, anyway?

Since in #795 he makes four attacks before Thog can react (second page, panel 4 "clunk!"+ panel 5 "clunk!"+"clunk!" + panel 6 "crack!"), I would say he's 16+.

Some people don't think this way:

We know OotS was equally leveled at the start of the comic. We know they faced approximately the same set of challenges between then and Roy's death. We know V was level 13 at the battle. In the extreme, we could hypothesize that Roy reached level 14 before dying--his father did call him the highest-leveled Good character on the battlefield--even though we have no evidence to suggest that Roy had special XP from any source. However, we know Resurrection gives -1 level from when the character died, and as previously stated, in-comic evidence suggests that this rule was followed, since Roy can't learn feats by leveling in the afterlife. This puts Roy behind the rest of the party--13, at most, when the others are 14-15 (various sources). And we know the rest of the Order was level 15-16 (various sources) at the time of the arena fight.

Any fresh ideas on the subject are welcome.

[sgtpimenta]

Oh, and there is a geekery argument to be made that Roy should have advanced to level 13 by this point in the story. Unlike most arguments that are made here, this one actually works by counting XP!

Do you think it's possible to count XP earned by a given character? I mean, telling the exact CR of each monster involves a lot of guess work... I, for one, think that Thog is higher than CR 13.

And there is the fact that, in the past, we have never been able to count the exact amount of XP gained in the comics... Am I wrong?

[FujinAkari]

It is most certainly not clear that the *crack* represents a separate attack or if it is a result of the two attacks from the previous frame, so I would say 15.

Roy lost a level when he got resurrected, without question, and he likely missed out on another level's worth just while waiting to be ressed, compared to the rest of the party, so I can't see him being 16 at that point.

[Math_Mage]

Do you think it's possible to count XP earned by a given character? I mean, telling the exact CR of each monster involves a lot of guess work... I, for one, think that Thog is higher than CR 13.

And there is the fact that, in the past, we have never been able to count the exact amount of XP gained in the comics... Am I wrong?

Zimmerwald's assumption about Thog's CR is based on Roy's level, since they fit the designation of rival that gives Crystal equal level to Haley. Since you think Roy is 17+, that would give Thog a CR of 18+ (after LA for being an orc).

So, insofar as your assumption about Roy's power level is correct, your assumption about Thog's power level is equally correct.

[Math_Mage]

Thread merger in 3...2...1...

Considering the devil of a time I had simply getting confirmation that Thog's full attack in this strip shows he's level 11+, don't expect C&LG to act on this evidence, which is quite a bit more ambiguous.

[SowZ]

I doubt anything will be said that hasn't already been mentioned in class and level geekery.

[Winter]

No way in hell he's 16+.

For that, he must have

• made up for all XP he lost during the resurrection and also
• catch up with the order to make up for the time where he was dead and they got xp and he not (and they really got a lot)
• and then get enough xp to take over the highest chars of the Order (Belkar and Haley and even they are just 15-16 max, not 16+).

Unless you have very strong evidence that a) proofs the level and b) explains where Roy should have gotten that massive XP while none of the Order did, your theory is deader than a dead parrot that gets smashed against the counter of the parrot-shop.

Actually, I think it is so dead that I feel like I'd be stating the very obvious and as such wasting my time writing all lines after "No way in hell he's 16+."

[Kish]

Level 15, or possibly 16.

Unpopular opinion, I know, but I don't think Rich is tracking separate levels for the party members, even as casually as he can be said to be "tracking" their levels at all. Vaarsuvius cast Power Word Stun, so s/he was level 15 at the time, and therefore so was everyone in the party; Vaarsuvius or Durkon reaching level 17 is likely to be highlighted the way Redcloak doing so was, and therefore none of the Order is yet level 17.

This viewpoint is obviously not geeky at all.

His number of attacks doesn't really strike me as evidence either way; Rich often depicts a character "forfeiting actions to just stand there" in a way far more likely to happen in a story than in a D&D campaign.

[Winter]

I also think that Roy's level is the least interesting to track of all. He's a fighter, what does it matter if he has "only" 11 or 12 Feats?

Level for Roy only means attacks per round, which often vanishes in the artistic style of the comic. Other characters' power is determined by what spell-level they have access to.

So I think that Roy "is" level 13 or 14 (not as high as others) but for him it really does not matter that much.
Elan matters because spells are tied to his level, Durkon and Vaarsuvius as well. But for Roy...?

I'm still saying Roy is a level or two behind the others - but it does not matter at all here. He's not losing spells or abilities and as such: So what?

[Forikroder]

the crack is just Thogs weapon breaking not an additional attack from roy it just broke under the pressure of his last attack