Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Kurald Galain]

Well, just off the top of my head, we've seen multiple dragons, zombies, wights, ghasts, ghouls, mummies, an owlbear, a lich, lizardfolk, hobgoblins, horses, orcs, bearded devils, a succubus, a drow, an imp, ogres, a riding dog, and a chimera. I'm sure there are more.

Ah see, I thought this would be easy

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm still hung up on why they went with a mundane smokestick which is more likely to be removed instead of, say, a Darkness spell tied to a rock or arrow or something. At least then, when Durkon moves in, he's better protected from complete blindness and TS, walk straight back into the wall to the others, or even stay there and cast a Dispel for the rest to come charging down after the Word.

Has it occured to you that they just don't have such a thing or the means to create one in time? Because that's the easy in-universe explanation. As for the rationale for this strategy, you've got it backwards. True Seeing would see through magical darkness (I think; I'm back to posting from a phone, and we know what that does to my accuracy), but it doesn't see through either magical or mundane fog. Not that the Order has any idea that their enemy has True Seeing up. Gust of Wind is a non-factor as well. The ambush was set up to separate Malack from the rest of the Guild, and to incapacitate Z. It has done both these things. Unless Tarquin somehow gained three levels in Wizard that he's never put to use, whence will come the Gust of Wind? Your objections have been answered by the tactics of the ambush itself.

The more fundimental question, of course, beyond the half-thought-through assumptions, is "why didn't the Order do X instead of Y?". For that, there's an answer in the FAQ: because Rich doesn't want them to.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm still hung up on why they went with a mundane smokestick which is more likely to be removed instead of, say, a Darkness spell tied to a rock or arrow or something.

The problem with 3E's darkness spell is that it makes an area shadowy, but not totally dark. It should probably have been called "dimness" instead. The various fog-related spells are a more effective vision blocker - and since Obscuring Mist is close range, and Fog Cloud is neither a bard nor a cleric spell, the smokestick is the most practical alternative.

[Aurabolt]

Right, Galain. I see where you're coming from. I'm more concerned a spell they would have access to-from Elan, Durkon or even Haley with a high enough UMD and a Darkness scroll-would have served them better. Z needs to be incapacitated so everything after the smokestick makes a great deal of sense-get the Cleric in and the Word out.

I was concerned that the smokestick-being basic adventure gear-would be easily circumvented by any remaining members than something more effective like say a spell. A Gust of Wind, a Bag of Winds, destroying the Smokestick as a whole may have prevented the ambush, but Nale's not thinking straight.

And hey, Zimmerwald: Yeah, I am asking that question. If I'm not mistaken, this is the place to be asking them since the thread is meant to look at the combat and what happens and take an interest in what happens by the game logic. The mist, I'll give you since I checked the spell description, but the Gust of Wind would easily negate the stick's effect through the mist, either giving the Linear Guild the chance to recover from the Word, or be used by Durkon instead to clear said fog for the Order to attack. It mattered on who got it out first-OOtS or the Guild. As far as we know, the flying kobold has the spell; he may be some librarian in the kingdom, but I venture to guess he's Neutral-aligned.

You have a problem with what I say, take it up with me personally. But I was arguing tactics of the situation as a whole. That's what the thread is about.

[Kish]

Huh? Unless you're arguing that using a smokestick rather than a spell says something about the Order's stats, it's not on-topic for this thread at all.

[Aurabolt]

I was of the understanding that we were discussing the fight as it goes along in conjunction with the stats. My apologies.

Though considering that issue now in terms of levels for the Linear Guild, I wonder about the decision. I imagine you're getting minuses to Spot and Search checks due to the fog, which may be circumvented by high ranks for Sabine and a good Wisdom score on Tarquin. Would Darkness provide a greater skill penalty if used?

[Emperordaniel]

Though considering that issue now in terms of levels for the Linear Guild, I wonder about the decision. I imagine you're getting minuses to Spot and Search checks due to the fog, which may be circumvented by high ranks for Sabine and a good Wisdom score on Tarquin. Would Darkness provide a greater skill penalty if used?

From the SRD:

This alchemically treated wooden stick instantly creates thick, opaque smoke when ignited. The smoke fills a 10-foot cube (treat the effect as a fog cloud spell, except that a moderate or stronger wind dissipates the smoke in 1 round). The stick is consumed after 1 round, and the smoke dissipates naturally.

A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target).

A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round.

The spell does not function underwater.

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.

Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness.

If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level.

I hope this helps.

[RMS Oceanic]

In fog and smoke, vision is completely blocked beyond five feat, and you still have a miss chance if you're standing right next to them. Listen checks aren't affected, but that's what Holy Word hopes to address.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, Celia references [the Monster Manual] at least once.

So does V, in panel 4.

Edit:

I was of the understanding that we were discussing the fight as it goes along in conjunction with the stats. My apologies.

As a rule of thumb, this thread exists to discuss the hows, not the whys. The whys, as explained in the FAQ, are under the ultimate power of plot, character knowledge, character development, characterisation and rule of funny. Only when those have been taken care of will Rich consider the most strategically sound option.

Grey Wolf

[dps]

Indeed it is. However I think I'll hold fast on adding it until we can get a complete tally of who is deaf/blind/paralyzed/dead/etc. Might as well do it all in one lump.

We might not get a clear-cut answer. Unless the Giant does something that gives a clear visual distinction between a deafened and blinded character and a deafened, blinded and paralyzed character, we might not be able to tell--a deafened and blinded character might decide to just be still and not move. Hmm, I can even see an unaffected character finding a tactical advantage in pretending to be deaf, blind, and paralyzed (though I'd think that eventually the deceptions would be revealed).

[Kurald Galain]

Hmm, I can even see an unaffected character finding a tactical advantage in pretending to be deaf, blind, and paralyzed

Yes, but other than Tarquin I consider the adversaries to be entirely too stupid to think of that

[dps]

Yes, but other than Tarquin I consider the adversaries to be entirely too stupid to think of that

That was primarily who I was thinking of.

Kilkil isn't stupid, but OTOH, he's the most likely to actually be paralyzed, or dead.

[RMS Oceanic]

Right, now we have a Tally of affects:

- Most importantly, Belkar's deaf. This puts Durkon at one level below Belkar, so if we still think he's 16, Durkon is level 15.
- Tarquin was unaffected, so he's level 17 or higher.
- Nale and Z are deaf, so they're at most level 16 (Z being a Wizard 16 rather than 14/LA 2 because Holy Word uses hit dice, not level.
- Sabine got banished, so any consequences will probably wear off before we can discern them.
- Kilkil is unaccounted for.

Does this cover everything?

[Emperordaniel]

Well, we now have confirmation that Tarquin is at least two levels higher than Durkon.

Also, since the Holy Word apparently affected Belkar, and Belkar's character level is at least 16, wouldn't that make Durkon 15th-level?

[eras10]

- Most importantly, Belkar's deaf. This puts Durkon at one level below Belkar, so if we still think he's 16, Durkon is level 15.

This isn't right. Per SrD 20, Belkar must be equal or below Durkon's level. Either Durkon is level 16, (and has eighth level spells we haven't seen yet?) or Belkar was not. The latter isn't inconcievable. The panel from 748 where Belkar claims to be attack rank G was a joke. Jokes are unreliable as stat info ("You can't ever take anything I say in the last panel seriously!").

Anyway, there's a contradiction in either Durkon or Belkar's level.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

- Sabine got banished, so any consequences will probably wear off before we can discern them.

Sabine was not shouting, so deafness is unlikely in her case, unless she was actively compensating for - but if she was of clear enough mind to whisper when she couldn't hear her own voice, why was she not clear of mind enough to not try talking to the deaf guy?

It is very circumstantial, though, so I wouldn't bother with the assumption.

Grey Wolf

[RMS Oceanic]

This isn't right. Per SrD 20, Belkar must be equal or below Durkon's level. Either Durkon is level 16, (and has eighth level spells we haven't seen yet?) or Belkar was not. The latter isn't inconcievable. The panel from 748 where Belkar claims to be attack rank G was a joke. Jokes are unreliable as stat info ("You can't ever take anything I say in the last panel seriously!").

Anyway, there's a contradiction in either Durkon or Belkar's level.

748's evidence for level 16 was the seven attacks in one panel, not attack rank G. Durkon's use of Holy Smite shows he has the Good Domain, which means Good Spells (like Holy Word) are cast at +1 level.

[SlyJohnny]

Hee. I like that the Giant apparently took into account the +1 cl from the Good domain, and that it's made a big difference to the tactics employed here.

[Kish]

Tarquin: Two or more levels above Durkon.
Belkar: Exactly one level above Durkon. Since we don't know Belkar's exact level, we don't know Durkon's exact level from that either.
Nale: Also exactly one level above Durkon.

[Gilphon]

It seems strange to me that Durkon is apparently one level behind Nale and Belkar- and therefore Elan, given the personal rival stuff; given the Giant's usual attitude about such things, it seems more likely that's he's the same level as them and the Giant forgot about him having Good Domain. That, of course, makes Belkar being level 16 problematic, but I never felt that the evidence for that was particularly strong, so that's no big loss.

However, I guess I must recognize that I can't claim inconsistency unless we get an actual contradiction.

[eras10]

Ah, the +1 Good Domain thing. I guess that explains it.

Tarquin: Two or more levels above Durkon.
Belkar: Exactly one level above Durkon. Since we don't know Belkar's exact level, we don't know Durkon's exact level from that either.
Nale: Also exactly one level above Durkon.

By the logic of the first post in this thread (personal rival, although honestly I've always thought we're being way too lose about that semijoke mechanism applying consistently in OOTS-verse, and who is or is not a said rival), that would also put Elan at one level above Durkon. Is that new information to add to what we already have there, or a contradiction?

Also... Zzditri is also +1 level to Durkon?

[Douglas]

Also... Zzditri is also +1 level to Durkon?

His attempted action here does not make it clear whether he is blind or not, so we don't know. He can't be more than 1 level above Durkon, and he's not paralyzed so he can't be more than 3 levels below, but this comic does not narrow it down further than that.

[John Cribati]

By the logic of the first post in this thread (personal rival, although honestly I've always thought we're being way too lose about that semijoke mechanism applying consistently in OOTS-verse, and who is or is not a said rival), that would also put Elan at one level above Durkon.

Technically, he'd be less then or equal to "one level above Durkon" since the level of the evil rival is greater than or equal to that of the good one.

[Gilphon]

Nale's definitely not blinded; he could see Sabine disappearing.

[zimmerwald1915]

{table]Character|Pre-860 HD minimum|Pre-860 HD maximum|Holy Word Effect
|13|15| -
|16|16|Deafened
:tarquin:|13| - | -
|14| - |Deafened
|9| - |Banished
:zz’dtri:|13| - |Deafened[/table]

Durkon should be level 15 (his previous maximum), Belkar level 16 (his previous minimum), Tarquin at least level 17, Nale level 16, and Zz’dtri level 16

[Douglas]

and Zz’dtri level 16

We don't actually know if he was blinded or not yet.

[137beth]

We also don't know that Durkon hasn't leveled up recently.

[Zeitgeist]

Maybe I'm misreading the SRD, and forgive me if I am (I'm sort of new to all of this) but it says:

"Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by holy word."

Doesn't that imply that everyone affected by something is no greater than Durkon's level (so far, only Tarquin seems to be unaffected)?

But everyone is saying this proves they are actually 1 HIGHER than his level. Can someone explain this to me?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe I'm misreading the SRD, and forgive me if I am (I'm sort of new to all of this) but it says:

"Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by holy word."

Doesn't that imply that everyone affected by something is no greater than Durkon's level (so far, only Tarquin seems to be unaffected)?

But everyone is saying this proves they are actually 1 HIGHER than his level. Can someone explain this to me?

In short: Durkon gets +1 to his effective spell level due to having the Good Domain and the spell being a Good Spell.

GW

[Zeitgeist]

In short: Durkon gets +1 to his effective spell level due to having the Good Domain and the spell being a Good Spell.

GW

Ah, well that clarifies a lot. That does indeed mean anyone who was deafened is exactly one level higher than him (rather than equal), and anyone who was blinded (none that I know of) is exactly his level (or 3 less). Thanks.