Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Gift Jeraff]

I think until something more is revealed about Thor's domain, that it is best to assume that Holy Word falls under the good domain. Because thus far the spells we assume to be in Thor's domain (Call/Thor's lightning, control air, Thor's might) mostly deal with weather spells.

Let's not assume yet that Holy Smite also falls under the Thor Domain until we have more solid information. I say this because Thor mostly smites by lightning, so there might be another spell in the 7th level Thor domain slot.

Fair enough.

Plus, after thinking about it, Holy Smite is in a special category of spells exclusive to the alignment domains. Control Winds is just a normal druid spell otherwise.

[St Fan]

Equipment nitpick: For Sabine and Nale, their Linear Guild business cards (which are seen in #257 and #804) are not mentionned.

[MrQ]

About Sabines level -she was not deafened, thus her ECL should be more than Durkons(+1 from good domain included), or am I missing something here? She DID fail her will save and got banished - the other effects do not allow any save whatsoever.

Same reasoning should apply to Dri.. Zzdr'it: Definitely no blindness (otherwise the smoke would not provoke him to cast gust of wind) and implied to be deaf. Hence, in both cases, ECL of 17 should apply to both.

[Mike Havran]

About Sabines level -she was not deafened, thus her ECL should be more than Durkons(+1 from good domain included), or am I missing something here? She DID fail her will save and got banished - the other effects do not allow any save whatsoever.

Same reasoning should apply to Dri.. Zzdr'it: Definitely no blindness (otherwise the smoke would not provoke him to cast gust of wind) and implied to be deaf. Hence, in both cases, ECL of 17 should apply to both.

I think Sabine could be also deafened, she didn't react to anything Nale said.

For Z, he was affected in the same way as Nale and Belkar, so he should be also level 16.

[MrQ]

I think Sabine could be also deafened, she didn't react to anything Nale said.

For Z, he was affected in the same way as Nale and Belkar, so he should be also level 16.

As for Z, quite. My mistake.

Please do notice, however, that every other deafened character (Belkar and Nale) were shouting with the exception of Z, fitting for the character.

Also, being quite literally disconnected from reality might have the effect of not paying much attention to the state of others -but this is meta, and has nothing to do with rules speculation. ;-)

[MrQ]

Also, the DC for holy word would be 20-23 (depending on Durkons WIS mod), which translates to 24-27 for Sabine. I don't know if this holds any relevance, but I assume mentioning it could help to scale some relevant ability scores for rules lawyers above my pay grade. ;-)

[Douglas]

About Sabines level -she was not deafened, thus her ECL should be more than Durkons(+1 from good domain included), or am I missing something here? She DID fail her will save and got banished - the other effects do not allow any save whatsoever.

I suspect Rich may have written it as the banishment happening instead of rather than in addition to the regular effects. Thus, it doesn't really tell us anything about Sabine with certainty.

Same reasoning should apply to Dri.. Zzdr'it: Definitely no blindness (otherwise the smoke would not provoke him to cast gust of wind) and implied to be deaf. Hence, in both cases, ECL of 17 should apply to both.

He knew the smoke was there because it arrived before the Holy Word, and Nale had already ordered him to disperse it with a wind spell. Whether or not he's blinded, his attempt to cast Gust of Wind can be explained by him following orders that had already been given. Thus, we do not yet know whether Z is blinded.

[Crusher]

We're trying to figure something out over in the MitD thread, specifically what mind-control type spell Xykon cast on the MitD in SoD. While obviously we don't know specifically what spell it was, is enough known about Xykon's spell list to at least eliminate specific spell-levels? For example, "Xykon's level 6 slots are all taken, so it can't be Geas or any other 6th level mind control spell."

Not a good example perhaps, but hopefully you get what I'm saying. Any thoughts?

[EmperorSarda]

We're trying to figure something out over in the MitD thread, specifically what mind-control type spell Xykon cast on the MitD in SoD. While obviously we don't know specifically what spell it was, is enough known about Xykon's spell list to at least eliminate specific spell-levels? For example, "Xykon's level 6 slots are all taken, so it can't be Geas or any other 6th level mind control spell."

Not a good example perhaps, but hopefully you get what I'm saying. Any thoughts?

Unfortunately with the number of unknown spells listed, your task may be impossible.

[zimmerwald1915]

Xykon's known spells, taken from the OP, arranged by level in the sorcerer/wizard list, including empty slots where he could have a spell known but none is listed:

Cantrips - Ray of Frost, Unknown x8
1st - Animate Dead Animal, Magic Missile, Unknown x3
2nd - Invisibility, Shatter, Unknown x3
3rd - Lightning Bolt, Unknown x3
4th - Animate Dead, Greater Invisibility, Resilient Sphere, Stoneskin
5th - Cloudkill, Overland Flight, Symbol of Pain, Teleport
6th - Contingency, Unknown x2
7th - Finger of Death, Greater Teleport, Mass Hold Person
8th - Ghostform, Symbol of Insanity, Unknown
9th - Energy Drain, Meteor Swarm, Soul Bind
Epic - Cloister, Epic Mage Armor, Superb Dispelling
Unknown Level - Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, unspecified fire spell, unspecified mind-affecting spell, unspecified spell that enables travel to the Astral Plane

Unless Xykon's taken the epic feat Spell Knowledge, which would give him two new spells known of any level, the spell he used on MitD should be level 8 or lower. Depending on where those spells of unknown level fall, it might be as low as level 3, though that's highly doubtful.

EDIT: not to muddy up the distinction between the two threads overmuch, but has anyone suggested that MitD's box might be the component to a Binding spell of the chaining variety? This is also highly doubtful, as MitD is just as likely to do what he's told than to be magically compelled to do something, but it is a level 8 enchantment...

RE-EDIT: ADA is now where it should be, and the list of spells of unknown level now includes the unspecified mind-affecting spell.

[Kurald Galain]

Xykon's known spells, taken from the OP, arranged by level in the sorcerer/wizard list, including empty slots where he could have a spell known but none is listed:

Animate Dead Animal is level 1, actually.

And I think we should add "unspecified hypnosis spell (SOD)" to this list.

[Crusher]

So its at least possible that levels 4, 5, and 7 are taken.

[Dark Matter]

Xykon's escapable force cage isn't 7th level, or 4th, or 5th.

That basically leaves 6th.

[Kish]

As I/Qwertystop pointed out in the MitD speculation thread, we cannot know that Xykon has not taken the Extra Spell and/or Spell Knowledge feats, so we can never know that he does not have more known spells on any level--short of Xykon saying "I don't have the Extra Spell or Spell Knowledge feats" in such a way that it's likely to be a statement of fact.

[Sniffnoy]

There's a broken link in the second post -- the link for Celia's Feeblemind-causing dress is misformatted.

[Kish]

...Feeblemind-causing dress...

I thought after the last thread blew up, we stopped treating in-character jokes as though they were bald statements of fact.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As I/Qwertystop pointed out in the MitD speculation thread, we cannot know that Xykon has not taken the Extra Spell and/or Spell Knowledge feats, so we can never know that he does not have more known spells on any level--short of Xykon saying "I don't have the Extra Spell or Spell Knowledge feats" in such a way that it's likely to be a statement of fact.

Actually, we know that right now Xykon doesn't have those feats because so far he hasn't needed them. When we got the spell list in the comic, it was conspicuously assuming that Xykon only had the standard number of spells.

Which is not to say, of course, that down the line Rich might need him to have an extra 5th level spell, and Rich decides to retroactively give him the feat.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

When we got the spell list in the comic, it was conspicuously assuming that Xykon only had the standard number of spells.

That just means O-Chul didn't consider Xykon might have the feats. Quite possibly he never heard of them; it's not like they'd be relevant to a fighter/paladin (and Knowledge: Arcana is cross-class for both O-Chul's classes).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That just means O-Chul didn't consider Xykon might have the feats. Quite possibly he never heard of them; it's not like they'd be relevant to a fighter/paladin (and Knowledge: Arcana is cross-class for both O-Chul's classes).

No, it also means that in all his months torturing the Paladin he was intending to kill anyway, Xykon not once tried out all his different low-levels spells on him. Which is "cross-class" to Xykon's MO.

GW

[Sniffnoy]

...Feeblemind-causing dress...

I thought after the last thread blew up, we stopped treating in-character jokes as though they were bald statements of fact.

I agree that it's silly to include it, but if it's going to be included it should have a proper link. :P

[John Cribati]

No, it also means that in all his months torturing the Paladin he was intending to kill anyway, Xykon not once tried out all his different low-levels spells on him. Which is "cross-class" to Xykon's MO.

GW

Except Redcloak was the one outright torturing him. Xykon just put him in ridiculois situations to watch him (try to) escape.

[B. Dandelion]

Except Redcloak was the one outright torturing him. Xykon just put him in ridiculois situations to watch him (try to) escape.

What!

The only way Xykon wasn't torturing O-Chul is if we're defining torture as something done for the purposes of extracting information -- which would suggest by extension that after 548 Redcloak was only "pretending" to torture him.

Xykon was putting him in "ridiculous" (one might say "torturous") situations to watch him struggle and suffer, because he likes watching things suffer and/or die. O-Chul was more entertaining than most because he could take more abuse, but the appeal of the spectacle is the pain and suffering, not some admiration of skill on display. (If he cared about "skill," he would have agreed with Jirix here about untrained slaves.)

They both tortured him.

[Felixc-91]

@B. Dandelion
well yes, Xykon was doing horrible things to O'chul, but from what we saw and heard most of those things were done by proxy, like having animals or magical beasts attack O. That would show off a lot less of X's abilities than had the lich been doing it personally.

[Kurald Galain]

@B. Dandelion
well yes, Xykon was doing horrible things to O'chul, but from what we saw and heard most of those things were done by proxy, like having animals or magical beasts attack O. That would show off a lot less of X's abilities than had the lich been doing it personally.

Oh I don't know, I can totally see Xykon entertain himself by casting some kind of mind control effect on O-Chul, then having him repeatedly punch himself in the face and saying "stop hitting yourself!"

(edit) incidentally, speaking of identifying spells, Malack knows what Dimension Door does.

[EmperorSarda]

I agree that it's silly to include it, but if it's going to be included it should have a proper link. :P

What if we put quotes around feeblemind, so it is "feeblemind"-causing dress? It gives it a sense of irony and humor that way and isn't taken so literally.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

@B. Dandelion
well yes, Xykon was doing horrible things to O'chul, but from what we saw and heard most of those things were done by proxy, like having animals or magical beasts attack O. That would show off a lot less of X's abilities than had the lich been doing it personally.

I'm not sure I follow your logic of Xykon's motivations. We know he is a hands-on kind of evil overlord. We see the end of Xykon's torture, when he has started to get creative in his efforts to almost kill O'Chul in new and exciting ways (since he is bored at having 16 hours/day with nothing to do).

We know that O'Chul composed the list of Xykon spells "one saving throw at a time" - i.e. that most of those spells were performed on him. I stand by my statement that it is well outside Xykon's MO to either keep some spells hidden to not give away he has those extra-known-spells feats or that he felt no need to try them out in O'Chul in a moment of boredom.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I stand by my statement that it is well outside Xykon's MO to either keep some spells hidden to not give away he has those extra-known-spells feats or that he felt no need to try them out in O'Chul in a moment of boredom.

Grey Wolf

This would seem to lead to O-Chul knowing Xykon's entire spell list, no gaps, which we know he doesn't.

[Peelee]

This would seem to lead to O-Chul knowing Xykon's entire spell list, no gaps, which we know he doesn't.

Actually, there would still be gaps. Unless you choose to state that Xykon tried Epic Mage Armor and Soul Bind on O-Chul. I'd say non-damaging spells like those would fall in the same category as Cloister (that is, spells O-Chul likely witnessed him casting, instead of experiencing the effects firsthand), which would explain the gaps.

Gahhhh I quoted you but meant this in reply to Grey Wolf. Today has been too stressful for me to keep thinking straight. My bad.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This would seem to lead to O-Chul knowing Xykon's entire spell list, no gaps, which we know he doesn't.

I'm with Peelee. Xykon is bound to have a number of non-combative spells that don't make for fun torture. But it is unlikely that he has one of those at every level - he is too gun-ho to not have filled at least one level with all-damage spells.

The fact that there are such non-combative spells is that there are gaps in the list. But if he had an extra spell per level, he'd have shown it by now (not so much for the feat that grants extra 9th-level spells, of course. Those, if nothing else, can't be used on O'Chul since they'd likely kill him outright).

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I'm with Peelee. Xykon is bound to have a number of non-combative spells that don't make for fun torture. But it is unlikely that he has one of those at every level - he is too gun-ho to not have filled at least one level with all-damage spells.

The fact that there are such non-combative spells is that there are gaps in the list. But if he had an extra spell per level, he'd have shown it by now (not so much for the feat that grants extra 9th-level spells, of course. Those, if nothing else, can't be used on O'Chul since they'd likely kill him outright).

Grey Wolf

Man, I hate disagreeing with people after they agree with me. Sadly, though, by looking at what we can see of the list, he pretty much does have a non-combative spell in every level. Animate Dead and Resilient Sphere at 4th level, Overland Flight at 5th, Contingency takes 6th (with the other two unknown. If we apply your logic, that is more indicative that all his 6th level spells are non-damaging!) Greater Teleport and Mass Hold Person at 7th, Ghostform in 8th, Soul Bind* coming in at 9th, and Cloister, Epic Mage Armor, and some sort of Epic Dispelling finishing in Epic.

So by using an educated guess, 6th level is likely all non-damaging, and everything we can see in his Epic list is the same (barring me forgetting him already casting a harmful epic spell in the comic, which is pretty likely).

I won't really say it's likely for him to have taken extra spell slot feats, but it's definitely in the realm of plausibility.

So until you reply, we have the very amusing situation of Kish disagreeing with you, me agreeing with Kish, and you agreeing with me.

*Both these spells are technically non-damaging, but still pretty devastating. I listed them because they fall under the "crap probably not cast on O-Chul" category, which I think is more appropriate/relevant here.