Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[ShneekeyTheLost]

i am honestly REALLY afraid of Swarm hosts. They're crazy strong and i would have no idea of what to do if i got contained.
I mean ok, air beats it, but what do i do with a ground army?
They're like tanks, except with twice the range AND chargelots are bad vs it.

I can't think of a cost-effective way of dealing with it. I suppose lots of colossi would work, or counter attacks.

P.S: I was gold in Wol, stopped playing 6 or so months ago.
I picked up the game a few weeks ago, did some games and now i'm in Platinum! Yay!

A single raven with a HS Missile will obliterate them...

[Silverraptor]

A single raven with a HS Missile will obliterate them...

I think he's talking about PvZ.

[Draken]

Sentries + Colossi should deal with swarm hosts pretty well, I think. As a bonus, colossus also deals with the roaches and hydralisks that would likely tag along swarm hosts due to shared upgrades.

[Silverraptor]

Sentries + Colossi should deal with swarm hosts pretty well, I think. As a bonus, colossus also deals with the roaches and hydralisks that would likely tag along swarm hosts due to shared upgrades.

Actually, that could work. If you can force the locusts to stay over the swarmhosts, then the splash damage from the collosi should kill them even if they're buried. So if they have a ton of overseers to pick off any observers, be deal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So, I've started playing multiplayer recently (against the AI for a while in the trial version, although beating it became easy once I figured out a certain strategy. I lost to the hard AI after I figured it out on the medium, but it was just a matter of economy, and all I had to do was take a second base). And I've learned that my build order sucks. As in, if I want to go pure MM until the late-game, I need to get like six rax, while I only get two. I get upgrades when I should be getting new buildings (although that one was easy to remedy, I just go for factory/starport before upgrades). I also have no idea what a good time is to get a second base.

[Kyeudo]

I also have no idea what a good time is to get a second base.

As soon as you are sure that you can hold it without losing it.

Here's how you figure out when that is:

Stick a line in the sand. Something like "I will take a second base when I have six marines". Then do it. If you lose against a normal play (not something cheesy like a six pool or a DT rush) then up your estimate. If you manage to hold it, drop your estimate and try again until you are losing.

Once you've dialed in a general safe time to expand, see if you can notice certain builds against which you can expand earlier safely.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I also have no idea what a good time is to get a second base.

Depends on your playstyle and how easily defended your Natural is. If you can wall-off your natural instead of your main, sometimes it is more advantageous to do that from the start, particularly in macro builds where you're wanting 2 base after your Factory goes down. It also works well for gas-heavy builds.

If you are just doing M/M, here's my suggestion:

I'd drop my second right after upgrading to Orbital Comand. If that's still too early, then right after you put your Reactor on your Starport (for medivac support for your MM ball).

Also, in HotS, build your fac with a Reactor and start cranking out widow mines to hold off a rush from taking your natural BEFORE claiming it. Then lift your rax and drop your starport on it. Kind of like the Starport Shuffle for Banshee Cheese, but in reverse. Once you've got 4-6 widow mines at your natural's entrance, you drop your new Command Center, having already built up a surplus of SCV's to transfer over.

[Karoht]

I also have no idea what a good time is to get a second base.

It varies from girl to girl.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It varies from girl to girl.

If I had accidentally said to second base, then you could've made that joke.

[Karoht]

If I had accidentally said to second base, then you could've made that joke.

It's my brain, I can make it anyway.
In fact, your quote inspired in me a whole exchange about two people talking about their recent dates and involving Starcraft II terminology. Build orders. Gold Minerals. Inuendo. It made me laugh.
I would share, but you said I can't make that joke.

It might be youtube video sketch worthy, at a later time. Perhaps as an intermission piece next barcraft.

[Silverraptor]

It's my brain, I can make it anyway.
In fact, your quote inspired in me a whole exchange about two people talking about their recent dates and involving Starcraft II terminology. Build orders. Gold Minerals. Inuendo. It made me laugh.
I would share, but you said I can't make that joke.

It might be youtube video sketch worthy, at a later time. Perhaps as an intermission piece next barcraft.

This reminds me of a quote from Day 9.

"I would not be the guy to ask for dating advice. It'd be in a build order. Lets see, at 7 I'd pick her up. 7:30 we would plop down for dinner. 8:30 I'd be fast expanding the conversation to flirting. And then if that doesn't work, I can always try harassment... I mean, my advice doesn't work!"

[Spuddles]

Sentries + Colossi should deal with swarm hosts pretty well, I think. As a bonus, colossus also deals with the roaches and hydralisks that would likely tag along swarm hosts due to shared upgrades.

The end game build is swarm host corruptor viper infestor. It's an incredibly micro intensive build, having to deal with 4 spell casters that each behave differently. You get to the build with roach ling, the cede map control to your opponent as you slowly accumulate the gas needed for your army.

Protoss death ball can push early, before swarm host too numerous, but then you're going to need a colossus timing vs their roach ling that hopefully breaks them early.

It varies from game to game, but all things equal, the force projection of swarm host is incredible.

I havent seen sky toss vs it, but it seems like it should work. Mothership, Carrier, archon, psi storm, tempest, and zlot harass. Viper hard counters mothership now. Personally I think mothership should be immune to slow, yank, fungals, etc. That may make it too strong, though. Just get enough tempests to one shot incoming vipers so your stuff cant get yankee and keep a lot of vision with hallucination/obs. I guess get a couple space giraffe to melt away swarmlings. They do obscene DPS otherwise.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I havent seen sky toss vs it, but it seems like it should work. Mothership, Carrier, archon, psi storm, tempest, and zlot harass. Viper hard counters mothership now. Personally I think mothership should be immune to slow, yank, fungals, etc. That may make it too strong, though. Just get enough tempests to one shot incoming vipers so your stuff cant get yankee and keep a lot of vision with hallucination/obs. I guess get a couple space giraffe to melt away swarmlings. They do obscene DPS otherwise.

Yea, too bad the Toilet doesn't work the way it used to. Although... that might be a way to deal with swarmhosts... black hole, sucks all of the swarmhosts up, then drops them practically on top of one another, easily in place for a psi storm to hit them all. Unless the zerg player unburries and moves them as soon as they get out of the black hole, they're in for a world of hurt. Even then, swarm hosts move slow enough that psi storms should be hellishly effective on them. Then, when you're out of energy, merge archons and mop up.

[Draken]

The end game build is swarm host corruptor viper infestor. It's an incredibly micro intensive build, having to deal with 4 spell casters that each behave differently. You get to the build with roach ling, the cede map control to your opponent as you slowly accumulate the gas needed for your army.

Protoss death ball can push early, before swarm host too numerous, but then you're going to need a colossus timing vs their roach ling that hopefully breaks them early.

It varies from game to game, but all things equal, the force projection of swarm host is incredible.

I havent seen sky toss vs it, but it seems like it should work. Mothership, Carrier, archon, psi storm, tempest, and zlot harass. Viper hard counters mothership now. Personally I think mothership should be immune to slow, yank, fungals, etc. That may make it too strong, though. Just get enough tempests to one shot incoming vipers so your stuff cant get yankee and keep a lot of vision with hallucination/obs. I guess get a couple space giraffe to melt away swarmlings. They do obscene DPS otherwise.

Eeeeh. Skytoss is the way to go against that, Voids and Tempests, I would say. Ditch the mothership.

I mean, other than the corruptor, which currently melts to voids without achieving much, that comp isn't very good vs air and it is just obscenely gas heavy.

I would say that, while using voids to protect tempests, it would be just the best time to use those range 15 units that are for some reason much faster than all other massive air units (too much of a hard counter for my tastes, imo), to do some snipings. Nothing in that army is cheap to replace after all.

[Spuddles]

Yea, too bad the Toilet doesn't work the way it used to. Although... that might be a way to deal with swarmhosts... black hole, sucks all of the swarmhosts up, then drops them practically on top of one another, easily in place for a psi storm to hit them all. Unless the zerg player unburries and moves them as soon as they get out of the black hole, they're in for a world of hurt. Even then, swarm hosts move slow enough that psi storms should be hellishly effective on them. Then, when you're out of energy, merge archons and mop up.

There's no way you're going to land an offensive vortex vs. 20 corruptors, fungal, nerual parasite, and yank. And even if you did land it, it's not going to grab much of anything.

No, you use the vortex on the corruptors and then storm/archon toilet them. Then your voids can clean up.

Eeeeh. Skytoss is the way to go against that, Voids and Tempests, I would say. Ditch the mothership.

I mean, other than the corruptor, which currently melts to voids without achieving much, that comp isn't very good vs air and it is just obscenely gas heavy.

I would say that, while using voids to protect tempests, it would be just the best time to use those range 15 units that are for some reason much faster than all other massive air units (too much of a hard counter for my tastes, imo), to do some snipings. Nothing in that army is cheap to replace after all.

Mothership is to cloak ground army so then zerg has to send an overseer for swarmlings. And you need archon/storm for space control and zoning, which means you need space giraffe to melt swarmlings, otherwise you're going to hemorrhage gas.

[Silverraptor]

Why do you guys say swarmings? Don't you mean locusts? Because if zerg got the zergling evolution of 1 second mutating sets of 3 zerglings, then I'm out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why do you guys say swarmings? Don't you mean locusts? Because if zerg got the zergling evolution of 1 second mutating sets of 3 zerglings, then I'm out.

I'd allow it, but only if I get medics with both Armory upgrades.

I do wish there was some sort of system to allow all the cool stuff exclusive to the campaign in competitive play, although we'd have to wait for LotV for that, otherwise Protoss would be left out. But it'd be really hard to balance and will probably never happen.

...

I miss the Goliath.

[Karoht]

I'd allow it, but only if I get medics with both Armory upgrades.

I do wish there was some sort of system to allow all the cool stuff exclusive to the campaign in competitive play, although we'd have to wait for LotV for that, otherwise Protoss would be left out. But it'd be really hard to balance and will probably never happen.

...

I miss the Goliath.

Custom games are a thing. Many of them use the campaign only units.

[Artanis]

Bwahaha, IdrA got himself fired.

[Karoht]

Bwahaha, IdrA got himself fired.

Again?
Wow, that didn't take long at all.

[Silverraptor]

What was the incident or incidents in question that led to this?

[Artanis]

What was the incident or incidents in question that led to this?

Evil Geniuses has put up with a LOT of crap from him over the years, but it appears that this post went too far over the line.

[Silverraptor]

Evil Geniuses has put up with a LOT of crap from him over the years, but it appears that this post went too far over the line.

The irony is that as a result of that post, he no longer is.

[Gandariel]

So, who is doing funday monday? The topic is to execute the most diabolical cheese. My idea is to find someone who knows what funday monday is, but doesn't know the topic and purposely mislead him. What better cheese than that?

I was thinking about doing it, but i had no cool ideas.
well i did have one... it involved a LOT of Hallucinations and a Zerg enemy (because they have crappy detection)



Anyway, i'm having trouble with ling/muta.
That thing is effin' strong.
I don't always have HTs with storm by the time mutas arrive (maybe i went colossus first, maybe i haven't researched storm yet, maybe i had to use my gas on something else, blah blah)

And even when i do have them, what happens?
They attack one mineral line, i rush to defend it, they move to another, usual deal.
When i DO get to engage them, i whip out my templars and Storm! Storm! eat AoE stupid mutalisks! i'm so powerful! F__K yeah Templars!
whoo, i'm so good at thisWHAT THE HELL, they're back and with full hp.

And Archons, they're AWESOME in direct engagement, but they have lower range and speed, so mutalisk harass is basically unstoppable if you don't go air.

So, should i constantly scout and build a stargate and chronoboost phoenixes as soon as i see Spire, or is there another way?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I was thinking about doing it, but i had no cool ideas.
well i did have one... it involved a LOT of Hallucinations and a Zerg enemy (because they have crappy detection)



Anyway, i'm having trouble with ling/muta.
That thing is effin' strong.
I don't always have HTs with storm by the time mutas arrive (maybe i went colossus first, maybe i haven't researched storm yet, maybe i had to use my gas on something else, blah blah)

And even when i do have them, what happens?
They attack one mineral line, i rush to defend it, they move to another, usual deal.
When i DO get to engage them, i whip out my templars and Storm! Storm! eat AoE stupid mutalisks! i'm so powerful! F__K yeah Templars!
whoo, i'm so good at thisWHAT THE HELL, they're back and with full hp.

And Archons, they're AWESOME in direct engagement, but they have lower range and speed, so mutalisk harass is basically unstoppable if you don't go air.

So, should i constantly scout and build a stargate and chronoboost phoenixes as soon as i see Spire, or is there another way?

One or two cannons around your mineral lines will do much to blunt the effectiveness of muta harass unless he's devoted a stupid amount of resources to it.

Remember, each muta is 100 each. That adds up pretty quickly. Kill three of them, and your two cannons just paid for themselves with the gas as a bonus. Against a half dozen muta, it'll require a lot of micro to keep all six muta alive against them. Just magic-boxing isn't going to cut it.

Sure, a dozen muta can brutalize a couple of cannon, but it's more the emotional impact against the opponent player than anything else. Muta harass philosophy is 'hit where they aren't to get free kills'. If he's risking a muta getting killed in harass, he's generally going to pick something else to do, simply because it won't be cost effective for him.

Granted, that is a mineral investment, but at least you aren't spending gas on the tactic. And if he does commit extensively to a heavy muta, well... that means he's going to have less other stuff, and you can try to take out an expo or two while he's farting around with a flight of muta. Most players won't want to base-race. If he decides to, you can either defend with blinkstalker or phoenix, while your main army roflstomps his other bases.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm having big problems against Protoss. Void Ray problems. My TvZ is fine, I just go straight for hellions to back up my MM against early rush lings. I fought a guy who built a huge amount of mutas (although he didn't do anything with them, apparently you have to have fifty mutas to successfully hit and run if your first muta all-in gets repelled), and I just built a ton of marines and a couple medivacs, eventually got two more rax with reactors on them, and a few vikings out of the starport. I've played maybe one TvT. But Protoss (which seems to be the most common race among the lowest ranked players) get me with a ton of Void Rays, whether or not I have Vikings by that time (seriously, when your best AA other than the Thor is the Viking, you need to fire the guys who dealt with the AA "crisis", which shouldn't have existed in the first place because you had the Goliath and the effing Wraith).

[Silverraptor]

I'm having big problems against Protoss. Void Ray problems. My TvZ is fine, I just go straight for hellions to back up my MM against early rush lings. I fought a guy who built a huge amount of mutas (although he didn't do anything with them, apparently you have to have fifty mutas to successfully hit and run if your first muta all-in gets repelled), and I just built a ton of marines and a couple medivacs, eventually got two more rax with reactors on them, and a few vikings out of the starport. I've played maybe one TvT. But Protoss (which seems to be the most common race among the lowest ranked players) get me with a ton of Void Rays, whether or not I have Vikings by that time (seriously, when your best AA other than the Thor is the Viking, you need to fire the guys who dealt with the AA "crisis", which shouldn't have existed in the first place because you had the Goliath and the effing Wraith).

Vikings should do it. You should scout often enough to see void rays and micro since Vikings outrange voids. But if you still can't do it, then go mass raven. Seeker missiles seem insanely strong and voids like to clump up.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, if they can get 'em in range, Marines do a hellishly effective job on Void Rays. Remember, VR's can only shoot one thing at a time. Much of their 'punch' is lost shooting at individual marines. And you've GOT marines. Just make sure nothing vital is on a cliff edge and you're gold.

In the event the VR's can use terrain height, try deploying a few Widow Mines along their attack routes. That'll slow 'em down. You can always move the Factory off of the Reactor and drop a rax into place later on.

[Kyeudo]

Day9 should totally do a funday Monday where you play as Terran and have to switch all of your buildings to the other add-ons every five minutes. So all your factories producing tanks no longer have tech labs and your barracks producing marines no longer have reactors. Marine tank suddenly becomes hellion marauder and back again.

[Gandariel]

The addon switch thing looks AWESOME!

Marine => Marauder
Hellion/mine => tank
Medivacs=>Raven

Pretty fun funday topic =)


Oh, and about the Voidray thing.
As i like to say, Marines are the counter to EVERY flying unit in the game. (Except maybe broodlord)