Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Silverraptor]

Day9 should totally do a funday Monday where you play as Terran and have to switch all of your buildings to the other add-ons every five minutes. So all your factories producing tanks no longer have tech labs and your barracks producing marines no longer have reactors. Marine tank suddenly becomes hellion marauder and back again.

And I just emailed Day 9 the idea. Hopefully we'll see it sometime.

[Kyeudo]

It was just something that I always wondered why Terrans don't do it. Back in WoL, they'd be going Marine/Tank and I'd be murdering them with Ultralisk/Hydralisk. They had enough tech labs and barracks to switch straight into Marauder/Hellion and do some nasty counter plays (swing hellions around behind the ultras and kill the hydras, marauders kite from the front) but they'd never do it. It seemed weird to just ignore such flexibility.

[Thiyr]

As i like to say, Marines are the counter to EVERY flying unit in the game. (Except maybe broodlord)

Strangely, oracles are pretty damn good against marines. So funny to watch 3ish oracles kill off 15ish marines. PEW PEW!

[Gandariel]

No, oracles are still weak to marines.

A protoss player who rushes an oracle can send it in, and (i'm not sure) one oracle is equal to 5-6 unupgraded marines. Maybe more.
Still that's not being cost effective, since oracles cost 150/150 plus the economic cost of rushing a stargate.

(((That's still a viable strat of course, if the enemy doesn't have enough marines you kill lots of his workers before running out of energy, so that's pretty heavy damage to him, but i was only discussing the value of the oracle as a marine-killer.)))

Later on in the game, marines have stim and combat shield, plus upgrades, and then there is NO way that air is cost-effective against them (except for Broodlords, as i said)

[Silverraptor]

How come they gave the oracle an attack? I remember the longest time that they were saying the oracle would be a worker friendly unit. What made them decide to give it an energy based attack?

[Artanis]

Anybody else watching SHOUTcraft America?

[Legoshrimp]

How come they gave the oracle an attack? I remember the longest time that they were saying the oracle would be a worker friendly unit. What made them decide to give it an energy based attack?

Probably because a harassment unit that has no way to do permanent damage, is pretty bad unless its short term harass is completely ridiculous.

So my idea for this funday monday is find someone who knows about it and then talk about it to convince them that you are trying it. Then play completely standard with the advantage of them spending extra resources on looking for what cheese you are doing.

edit: woah spelling...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Probably because a arrangement's unit that has no way to do permanent damage, is pretty bad unless its short term harass is completely ridiculous.

I liked the mineral lockdown ability they had in the beta. It was a good harass without being OP.

As it stands, the Oracle has to blow energy to detect (although just sending in an obs with isn't too big a deal), do the old SC Queen's Parasite ability (see through your opponent's vision and let them be your scouts), and blow energy to have a pretty badass attack.

[Thiyr]

No, oracles are still weak to marines.

A protoss player who rushes an oracle can send it in, and (i'm not sure) one oracle is equal to 5-6 unupgraded marines. Maybe more.
Still that's not being cost effective, since oracles cost 150/150 plus the economic cost of rushing a stargate.

(((That's still a viable strat of course, if the enemy doesn't have enough marines you kill lots of his workers before running out of energy, so that's pretty heavy damage to him, but i was only discussing the value of the oracle as a marine-killer.)))

Later on in the game, marines have stim and combat shield, plus upgrades, and then there is NO way that air is cost-effective against them (except for Broodlords, as i said)

Cost effective, perhaps, but marines are certainly not the COUNTER to oracle. Especially early-game, I've been very amused each time someone sends 10+ marines to deal with my 3ish oracles, only to find their marines a stain on the ground alongside a good chunk of worker. Though to be honest, there's extremely little that is cost effective in that kind of 1v1 situation anyway. Marine = OP! (seriously, though, in a direct cost-comparison, i'm pretty sure colossus lose to marines at even cost. I think banelings and mines are the only ones who can pull off more efficient trades. but a few oracles can do wonders clearing out marines, even if they're not an outright hard counter.)


And in regards to the oracle's old Entomb bit, in the words of David Kim,

1. The Oracle was a unit that didn’t allow players to show much differentiation in skill. Entomb was its main spell, and it made little difference whether it was a Silver or Master level player casting this ability.
2. Entomb wasn’t a fun spectator spell because there were no varying degrees of success; it was either cast or not cast.
3. The Oracle didn’t add much to the army when it was done harassing the enemy’s base.

And I actually agree with pretty much all of those thoughts. It didn't need the oracle to stick around more than the moment it took to drop entomb, so it wouldn't really lead to dynamic play from a viewer's perspective, and from a player's perspective took no more effort than "queue up entomb-and-retreat". And afterwards it could...uh...entomb again unless it got killed? even without its other abilities (which I admit I don't use as much as I'd like), pulsar beam has good use as just plain amazing DPS. in an army, you use it to flank and pick off opportune targets from odd angles (I like killing tanks with them personally). And when you add in the scout/detection, it adds up. I just wish they started with more energy. Though I admit, I would've liked to see them keep the anti-status-effect spell.

[Gandariel]

Yeah, ok, marines aren't exactly a counter.
In sheer cost-effectiveness yes, marines are one of the most costeffective units (along with tanks, mines, banelings maybe, and.. immortals i'd say)

And do people really do harass with 3 oracles? I mean you'll have to cause 450/450 in economic damage just to stay on par.. although i guess 3 oracles. kill any amount of marine the opponent reasonably has, as well as one queen. works less well on Protoss because stalkers deal with them better (which i guess is why i haven't seen more than one oracle at once sent to me)

[Thiyr]

Yeah, ok, marines aren't exactly a counter.
In sheer cost-effectiveness yes, marines are one of the most costeffective units (along with tanks, mines, banelings maybe, and.. immortals i'd say)

And do people really do harass with 3 oracles? I mean you'll have to cause 450/450 in economic damage just to stay on par.. although i guess 3 oracles. kill any amount of marine the opponent reasonably has, as well as one queen. works less well on Protoss because stalkers deal with them better (which i guess is why i haven't seen more than one oracle at once sent to me)

Yea. Generally speaking oracles should probably not see much use against P. Against T they're a good open, being able to deal with most of the AA options available and being able to straight rip through a mineral line. Against Z it works less well, but has potential. I think two will kill a queen, but don't quote me on that. But with spores coming out so much easier now, I tend to see them plopped in the mineral line as a matter of course, so they're a bit harder to use.

The other upside is that even if you're only killing marine before you run out of energy, that's still a non-negligible amount of resource lost early on for T. 5 marines is just barely below break-even. Add even one worker in and you're coming out ahead. And if they don't react for whatever reason (at my level, being distracted by a poke at the front, or an ally knocking on the door in team games) they're gonna tear through that line. And considering their speed, running away is pretty darn easy to do as well.

[Karoht]

It was just something that I always wondered why Terrans don't do it. Back in WoL, they'd be going Marine/Tank and I'd be murdering them with Ultralisk/Hydralisk. They had enough tech labs and barracks to switch straight into Marauder/Hellion and do some nasty counter plays (swing hellions around behind the ultras and kill the hydras, marauders kite from the front) but they'd never do it. It seemed weird to just ignore such flexibility.

*headscratch*

Here is another for you.
I've never once seen anyone take out medivacs in high league play, unless they had wiped out literally everything else.
Marine Ball VS Marine Ball. Enemy medivacs fly overhead, no quick target boom dead medivac?
Hell, it could be TvZ, there could be Mutas in play, that medivac gets right out of position, the mutas don't touch it.

Is it just more efficient to keep killing marines than it is to prevent them from healing?

[Gandariel]

It is kinda weird, yeah. I usually Feedback enemy medivacs when i can right after casting storms.

High templars aside, i usually don't target fire them, but that's mostly because my micro is poor; i should start doing that more often.



And another thing, 1 oracle to 6 marines is a TERRiBLE trade. it is in no way near the break even.
Every terran has a barracks (or more) and everyone makes marines. marines are never "wasted money' and keep being useful throughout the game. also, building marines is kinda fast and easy.

oracles cost gas, time, chronoboosts.
one oracle to 6 marines is an excellent trade for the terran.

On the other hand 1 oracle to 6 workers is a much better trade, because you're making the enemy lose mining time as well.

[Kyeudo]

Is it just more efficient to keep killing marines than it is to prevent them from healing?

Yes, because medivacs heal at like 2 hp per second. If you do 50 damage to a marine in less than 2 seconds, he's dead and doesn't heal anything.

In A-move fights, you won't see a ton of insta-killing marines, but unless they have a medevac cloud, they are still only healing a handful of marines. Medivacs are there for mobility and for fixing stim damage after the fight.

[Karoht]

Yes, because medivacs heal at like 2 hp per second. If you do 50 damage to a marine in less than 2 seconds, he's dead and doesn't heal anything.

In A-move fights, you won't see a ton of insta-killing marines, but unless they have a medevac cloud, they are still only healing a handful of marines. Medivacs are there for mobility and for fixing stim damage after the fight.

But if you kill the medivacs, stim becomes more dangerous to use, and you reduce their ability to retreat and med up. Isn't that still a long term win?

[Tavar]

But if you kill the medivacs, stim becomes more dangerous to use, and you reduce their ability to retreat and med up. Isn't that still a long term win?

That requires them to survive the fight. Which would imply that you lost the fight. So, sure, as method to hinder an opponent in a losing battle, it works. Not something you want to do from the start.

[Thiyr]

It is kinda weird, yeah. I usually Feedback enemy medivacs when i can right after casting storms.

High templars aside, i usually don't target fire them, but that's mostly because my micro is poor; i should start doing that more often.



And another thing, 1 oracle to 6 marines is a TERRiBLE trade. it is in no way near the break even.
Every terran has a barracks (or more) and everyone makes marines. marines are never "wasted money' and keep being useful throughout the game. also, building marines is kinda fast and easy.

oracles cost gas, time, chronoboosts.
one oracle to 6 marines is an excellent trade for the terran.

On the other hand 1 oracle to 6 workers is a much better trade, because you're making the enemy lose mining time as well.

I don't disagree in the long-term. But in the early-game, killing marines is non-negligible. Is it worth going in and saying "YEA! I'm gonna kill MARINES with my oracle! WOO!"? no. It really isn't. But picking up 6 maines from one oracle in the early game isn't a horrid trade. That's a sizable chunk of marine gone, which notably reduces the amount of pressure that can be done. Can T rebuild that easily? Yes. Is it gonna be crippling? No. Will he be able to be as safely offensive for a minute or so after that? Not really. That's a lot of outright firepower just plain lost. getting that trade for a single harass unit is fairly solid. That one oracle has the same buildtime as 3 plain raxes making marines. if we consider infrastructure into this, that's a lot more buildtime lost than your single building, even if its higher up the tech chain. And if they went for fewer rax to try and expand (which is where this would really shine), that's even longer.

(And this is why I hate trying to do cost-efficiency unit comparisons. It has enough variables that can't be given solid equivalencies that its easy for different people of different skilllevels/skill sets to come up with different opinions that they don't matter. The old phoenix vs muta thing comes to mind. And besides, when has P *ever* been efficient?)


EDIT: On the medivac thing. I've been targeting medis more often recently, but only during drops. During major a-move engagements it isn't worth it, but in small unit fights it can prolong a drop for far too long, and give them the option to just float away where you can't chase, even if you WOULD win the fight. The priority of medivacs on the kill-list is inversely proportional to the number of marines they're healing.

[Gandariel]

Hm, i suppose i agree with you. I actually only used oracles only once or twice for your average mineral line harass, to decent effect. I'll try and use them more, for fairness.

What exactly is the phoenix vs muta thing? It's pretty weird, considering it's a pretty hard counter..

[Legoshrimp]

Hm, i suppose i agree with you. I actually only used oracles only once or twice for your average mineral line harass, to decent effect. I'll try and use them more, for fairness.

What exactly is the phoenix vs muta thing? It's pretty weird, considering it's a pretty hard counter..

Probably it is that even though phoenixes where not very good against mutas, because it was basically impossible to micro well enough against them. IN THEORY 1 phoenix could beat almost infinite mutas, given perfect micro, because phoenixes move faster, had longer range, and could fire while moving.

So I think I am going to start playing SC2 again.

[Spuddles]

*headscratch*

Here is another for you.
I've never once seen anyone take out medivacs in high league play, unless they had wiped out literally everything else.
Marine Ball VS Marine Ball. Enemy medivacs fly overhead, no quick target boom dead medivac?
Hell, it could be TvZ, there could be Mutas in play, that medivac gets right out of position, the mutas don't touch it.

Is it just more efficient to keep killing marines than it is to prevent them from healing?

I watch a lot of Code S and target firing medivacs is pretty common. You won't see it in a giant deathball vs deathball scenario, but if you are getting dropped, it's better to have queens target fire a medivac and lose the queen than kill a marine. Trying to run lings behind minerals while a medivac is overhead just means you lose a lot of lings.

Same thing with toss- use a couple stalkers to shoot down medivac while zlots tank.

Before a big battle, you'll often see some positioning occur where medivacs get targeted on the flanks. For instance, muta flank picks off trailing medivacs, forcing the marines to halt and retreat. After a battle, you'll see mutas or blink stalkers running down retreating medivacs.

You'll also see a lot of fungals/storms dropped on medivacs if the opportunity arises.

Cleaning up medivacs means fewer stims from your opponent and fewer vikings to kill your space giraffes or broods.

[Thiyr]

I seem to remember that before the range upgrade was put in, phoenixes were considered to be a bad counter to muta, as even though they were able to outright kill mutas when matched up by cost, mutas were able to be made much more explosively, so there was no way to keep up with production. Coupled with the small error-margin on micro and the tech path investment at the time being a dead-end you didn't want to be going down, and phoenixes were considered a terrible choice vs muta, even if they were more cost efficient.

[Gandariel]

Heh, weird!

I guess the fact that air toss is good now means money invested in stargates/fleet beacon isn' wasted.

And also, in WoL i sometimes used 3 or 4 phoenixes for worker harass and overlord killing against Zerg, with some decent effect. (4 phoenixes kill one queen in one lift). Might start doing that again, just to "convince" the enemy to stop with those damn mutas.

[Spuddles]

I seem to remember that before the range upgrade was put in, phoenixes were considered to be a bad counter to muta, as even though they were able to outright kill mutas when matched up by cost, mutas were able to be made much more explosively, so there was no way to keep up with production. Coupled with the small error-margin on micro and the tech path investment at the time being a dead-end you didn't want to be going down, and phoenixes were considered a terrible choice vs muta, even if they were more cost efficient.

Pre-range upgrade, phoenix were built to trick the opponent into going hydra, then tech switch into colossus death ball. Post-range upgrade, phoenix opening
maintained their strength because it essentially precluded mutalisk, hydras were a trap option, so it basically forced infestor.

Of course, if you end up wiping out a bunch of phoenix, turning 800 gas into mutas will very likely pay off, as phoenix tends to be an early game opener.

[Gandariel]

Sooo does anyone know the gas timing if one wants to get warp gate, one stalker and the mommacore all started as soon as the cyber core finishes?
I'm trying to do that vs Terran, because reapers laugh at my FFE and i need a stalker immediately.
oh, also i saw on the day9 site: Zerg can max out at 9:30.
creepy.

(it's a contest, max out as fast as possible, any ladder map, with no enemy. people did 6base drone or 4 base roach max on that map with 2 gold expos in the middle))

[Silverraptor]

Sooo does anyone know the gas timing if one wants to get warp gate, one stalker and the mommacore all started as soon as the cyber core finishes?
I'm trying to do that vs Terran, because reapers laugh at my FFE and i need a stalker immediately.
oh, also i saw on the day9 site: Zerg can max out at 9:30.
creepy.

(it's a contest, max out as fast as possible, any ladder map, with no enemy. people did 6base drone or 4 base roach max on that map with 2 gold expos in the middle))

You FFE against terrans in Hots? You used to not be able to do that in WoL.

[Gandariel]

No, i said i don't do that.

I do that vs zerg usually (if they don't do early pools).
you can't do FFE vs terran because that delays stalker a lot and reapers are terrifying if i don't have a stalker.
FFE now can work vs Toss as well because of planetary nexus, and i sometimes do that.


By the way, i just won a game thanks to the pylon change in Hots! a guy tried the old "pylon+ 2 cannons on the low ground, then sneak in and build pylons on the high ground" thing.
when he tried that, he found out you still havve to build a pylon on the high ground in order to power things, and those 30 seconds gave me time to start a cannon of my own near it and save myself.
then the game went on as usual, but i had a huge lead and managed to win

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, i said i don't do that.

I do that vs zerg usually (if they don't do early pools).
you can't do FFE vs terran because that delays stalker a lot and reapers are terrifying if i don't have a stalker.
FFE now can work vs Toss as well because of planetary nexus, and i sometimes do that.


By the way, i just won a game thanks to the pylon change in Hots! a guy tried the old "pylon+ 2 cannons on the low ground, then sneak in and build pylons on the high ground" thing.
when he tried that, he found out you still havve to build a pylon on the high ground in order to power things, and those 30 seconds gave me time to start a cannon of my own near it and save myself.
then the game went on as usual, but i had a huge lead and managed to win

Wait... reapers are terrifying to a protoss player? Did they nerf mothership core or something? Because last I heard, it pretty much made reapers not worth bothering with.

[Silverraptor]

No, i said i don't do that.

I do that vs zerg usually (if they don't do early pools).
you can't do FFE vs terran because that delays stalker a lot and reapers are terrifying if i don't have a stalker.
FFE now can work vs Toss as well because of planetary nexus, and i sometimes do that.


By the way, i just won a game thanks to the pylon change in Hots! a guy tried the old "pylon+ 2 cannons on the low ground, then sneak in and build pylons on the high ground" thing.
when he tried that, he found out you still havve to build a pylon on the high ground in order to power things, and those 30 seconds gave me time to start a cannon of my own near it and save myself.
then the game went on as usual, but i had a huge lead and managed to win

I was not aware of this change. When did they implement it?

[Gandariel]

@shneekeythelost:
i was saying that if you do FFE you delay gas and cyber core a lot, and hence you delay youe mothership core or first stalker.
if you do ffe reapers are in your base before you have time to get the core up.


@silverraptor: i don't know exactly when they implemented it, but it's definitely true.
pylons on low ground cannot power buildings or warp units on the high ground. (pylon on high ground can still power stuff on the low ground)
there's a list somewhere titled Complete list of changes in Hots

[Spuddles]

I was not aware of this change. When did they implement it?

With the HotS expansion.