Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Zevox]

Your MMR is a secret value and is used to figure who you should play next. It is not the same as your ladder ranking. There is also a window around it, so you can get paired above and below your rank.

If you have been on a winning streak, your MMR may have risen, but the game does not move you to a new league until your MMR stabilizes somewhat (you start losing and winning again in roughly equal proportions). If you are playing Gold players, you may actually be being considered for getting moved to Gold league. It is theoretically possible to skip leagues, although I haven't heard of it.

Then what's the point of the league ranking, if that point value is what's actually important? That's just frustrating design. Especially the part where I can't even know what mine is because it's secret.

The only reason I can think of for why my MMR would have me being paired with gold players is if my ranking from that one WoL season I participated in affects it. Back then I was in gold. Now I've played only a handful of games, and lost most of them.

And honestly, it's kind of annoying and disappointing. I haven't been able to work up the nerve to play much the past couple of days, because I worry about how I'll perform, and how I can get better. Today the thought occurred to me that since I was placed into bronze I could just goof off for fun for a little while, and worry about getting better later, when I'm more used to the game again. If I'm getting paired with people that will just stomp me if I try to do that, however...

[Artanis]

Come to think of it though, Shneeky's replay might not have had enough combined FAIL to make it into Bronze League Heroes. Sure, the opponent was ten kinds of terrible, but Shneeky's competence may have balanced that out too much for Sinvicta to choose it



Edit for Dark Templar posts:

Then what's the point of the league ranking, if that point value is what's actually important? That's just frustrating design. Especially the part where I can't even know what mine is because it's secret.

As has been said, the MMR is secret, so the League ranking gives you something to strive for. It's a carrot dangled in front of players.

As for getting matched up with players outside your league: AFAIK, the leagues are just based on MMR percentile. The bottom 20% in MMR are Bronze, 20% through 40% in Silver, etc. If skill (and thus MMR) follows a bell curve, then people at the very edges of their league will be closer to people in the next league than they will to much of their own. It would get most extreme around the top of silver and bottom of plat: the very best Silver player would be closer in MMR to the very worst Plat than he would be to the very worst Silver

[Gandariel]

Well, to put it simply, the league is where you can say your level to be.
If you say "i'm in platinum" people get that you're in that range of level.

Then, MMR, fighting people of higher rank, etc. That's all stuff to make sure that people in gold are gold-level, and so on. That's a lot of math and calculus to make sure that you go to the league where you belong

[Kyeudo]

Then what's the point of the league ranking, if that point value is what's actually important? That's just frustrating design. Especially the part where I can't even know what mine is because it's secret.

If you play a lot, your visible rank will approximate your MMR. The visible rank is really more a thing to let you know how much you are winning in a given season, adjusting to activity levels using the bonus pool.

The only reason I can think of for why my MMR would have me being paired with gold players is if my ranking from that one WoL season I participated in affects it. Back then I was in gold. Now I've played only a handful of games, and lost most of them.

It does somewhat carry over. Not sure how much.

And honestly, it's kind of annoying and disappointing. I haven't been able to work up the nerve to play much the past couple of days, because I worry about how I'll perform, and how I can get better. Today the thought occurred to me that since I was placed into bronze I could just goof off for fun for a little while, and worry about getting better later, when I'm more used to the game again. If I'm getting paired with people that will just stomp me if I try to do that, however...

Stop worrying. The MMR will ensure that you get matched against people roughly as good as you are, so your games are going to be fair. You can beat your opponents. If you are actively trying to learn, you might even be better than your MMR says you are.

[Artanis]

Oh hey, page 48. Guess it's time to start deciding on the next thread's title!

StarCraft 2, Thread 9: I have the HotS for Kerrigan!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Come to think of it though, Shneeky's replay might not have had enough combined FAIL to make it into Bronze League Heroes. Sure, the opponent was ten kinds of terrible, but Shneeky's competence may have balanced that out too much for Sinvicta to choose it

I dunno, I mean... I overreacted when I saw the forge and sent like ALL my SCV's out until my marine could handle it, I was at the 10 minute mark before my orbital command came out, I was hovering like 1k minerals once I got my orbital command, and I never actually dropped any mules. In fact, I never once used my orbital command's energy. It might as well have been a normal command center. Oh, and a bad habit from campaign mode, I generally had one SCV running around doing building, and just sitting idle when not building anything. So yea, I had idle SCV's for a good chunk of the game.

So yea, I was definitely not being very 'pro' either. But hey... it doesn't take much to realize your opponent is going to cannon rush you. Particularly not when they practically announce it by opening leetspeek.

Right now, I'm doing some AI matches to try and work my macro and build order up. You know, not really trying to challenge anyone, I just want to be sure I can get my initial supply depot and rax down in the proper timing while still pumping SCV's and not getting supply blocked. The fact that this is a challenge for me pretty much states how badly I fail at this game right now.

[Gandariel]

Yeah, take it one step at a time.

try this one:
First, build a depo. Then build a command center next to the depo, and then a barracks. These three buildings should form a wall-in.
[never stop building SCVs, by the way]
As soon as the bartacks finishes, make both CCs into Orbitals, and start pumping out marines.
Build a Bunker in front of your natural, fill it with marines, (and keep building them!) and move the second CC into your natural.
Keep building SCVs and getting MULES. Next depos should go towards making a wall for the entrance of your natural.

After this, go with whatever you want.

This shouldn't be hard to follow, and it is a good opener which keeps you more or less safe and gives you an economic edge =)

[Zevox]

As has been said, the MMR is secret, so the League ranking gives you something to strive for. It's a carrot dangled in front of players.

That's nice for people who care about that sort of thing I suppose. Me, the only reason I actually used ranked modes in multiplayer games is because it's supposed to match me up with people around my skill level, so I don't end up just getting overwhelmed by players much better than me all the time.

Stop worrying. The MMR will ensure that you get matched against people roughly as good as you are, so your games are going to be fair. You can beat your opponents. If you are actively trying to learn, you might even be better than your MMR says you are.

That may be so normally. However, in this case:

It does somewhat carry over. Not sure how much.

This part presents something of a contradiction there. If my present MMR is partially based on my performance two years ago, which to all appearances thus far does not reflect my ability in the present, and it's causing me to get paired with players two ranks above me, I think there's a problem for me here.

[Karoht]

It was particularly funny because when I asked him if he was IdrA, the guy stated (and pardon if I paraphrase) that he was a big fan of IrdA. Go fig.

"I'm a fan of IdrA."
"Stupid Blizzard for making your army OP."
"You scouted my highly telegraphed cheese tactic? Clearly you must be cheating. Not just cheating, HACKING!"
"Reporting!"

Ah, the sounds of the fan-dumb at work.
Oh well, at least it isn't as toxic as LoL or DOTA2. If you ever want to see a toxic game community, picture 10 IdrA clones playing 5v5. Honestly, LoL and DOTA2 players make IdrA look like a boy scout.

[Artanis]

That's nice for people who care about that sort of thing I suppose. Me, the only reason I actually used ranked modes in multiplayer games is because it's supposed to match me up with people around my skill level, so I don't end up just getting overwhelmed by players much better than me all the time.

In theory, that's what the MMR is supposed to do. A lot of people don't understand the leagues very well, so they freak out when they get matched with somebody from a higher league who is actually very close to their skill level. For instance, the guys at the very top of Silver are actually going to be very close to the guys at the very bottom of Gold.


*thinks*

A similar situation would be letter grades on test scores. Somebody who scores an 80 gets a B, somebody who scores an 89 gets a B, and somebody who scores a 90 gets an A. The 80 and the 89 have the same letter on the test, but the 89 is a hell of a lot closer to the 90 than he is to the 80. So pairing the 89 with the 90 would be a much closer fit than pairing the 89 with the 80, despite what the letter grades say.

[Zevox]

In theory, that's what the MMR is supposed to do. A lot of people don't understand the leagues very well, so they freak out when they get matched with somebody from a higher league who is actually very close to their skill level. For instance, the guys at the very top of Silver are actually going to be very close to the guys at the very bottom of Gold.


*thinks*

A similar situation would be letter grades on test scores. Somebody who scores an 80 gets a B, somebody who scores an 89 gets a B, and somebody who scores a 90 gets an A. The 80 and the 89 have the same letter on the test, but the 89 is a hell of a lot closer to the 90 than he is to the 80. So pairing the 89 with the 90 would be a much closer fit than pairing the 89 with the 80, despite what the letter grades say.

Yes, I understand the concept. The problem is with the way that, despite the league resetting and all, my previous ranking is influencing who I get paired up with currently, even though it's been two years (and an expansion) since I last played and I'm clearly not doing as well as I used to anymore.

(Also, I don't understand why they make the MMR an invisible value. The whole thing actually sounds very similar to the ranking system in Street Fighter x Tekken, where you have player points you gain or lose for each fight, and your point value determines your letter rank. But there I know both what my letter ranking and my player points are, so I have a better idea where I stand overall than I do here. And I didn't need to have the system explained to me by someone online to understand it.)

[Artanis]

Yes, I understand the concept. The problem is with the way that, despite the league resetting and all, my previous ranking is influencing who I get paired up with currently, even though it's been two years (and an expansion) since I last played and I'm clearly not doing as well as I used to anymore.

(Also, I don't understand why they make the MMR an invisible value. The whole thing actually sounds very similar to the ranking system in Street Fighter x Tekken, where you have player points you gain or lose for each fight, and your point value determines your letter rank. But there I know both what my letter ranking and my player points are, so I have a better idea where I stand overall than I do here. And I didn't need to have the system explained to me by someone online to understand it.)

Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood what you were saying there

[ShneekeyTheLost]

"I'm a fan of IdrA."
"Stupid Blizzard for making your army OP."
"You scouted my highly telegraphed cheese tactic? Clearly you must be cheating. Not just cheating, HACKING!"
"Reporting!"

Ah, the sounds of the fan-dumb at work.
Oh well, at least it isn't as toxic as LoL or DOTA2. If you ever want to see a toxic game community, picture 10 IdrA clones playing 5v5. Honestly, LoL and DOTA2 players make IdrA look like a boy scout.

Oh, right... I forgot the 'Minez OP' comment when it took out his warp prism.

Yea, there's a reason I don't play LoL or DotA... that's one of the major reasons.

Anyways, my Terraria updated, so I'll see you guys in a week or two

[ShadowFireLance]

Huh. Looks like I've missed this one.

Quick questions for people more knowledgeable than myself;

I have a friend who's going to be joining, and is dead set on Protoss. The only problem, is that He's more than a little hyperactive, and jumps around a lot.

Would you guys have any tips for getting him used to Protoss style, Or Should I just keep pushing Zerg?

[Kyeudo]

This part presents something of a contradiction there. If my present MMR is partially based on my performance two years ago, which to all appearances thus far does not reflect my ability in the present, and it's causing me to get paired with players two ranks above me, I think there's a problem for me here.

It would be terrible if the computer automatically assumed you'd gotten worse over the break. Imagine it decided to put you into Bronze even though you've been following the metagame by watching Day9 while you improved your micro playing League of Legends or C&C or something. Some poor unsuspecting Bronze players are going to get roflstomped by someone horribly out of their league.

So it just assumes you are in the same place until it sees evidence otherwise.

[Gandariel]

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't take into account stuff that happened two years and an expo ago. Maybe you were just winning a lot of games, or they were losing a lot!

Actually, i am top gold with very high win ratio (not trying to brag, i used to be plat and i'm getting back to it) and i still got paired with a bronze guy once.

@Hyperactive friend: Nah, let him be a protoss. PvP is a VERY active matchup, with lots of very fast games.
He'll love the 3gate blink allin: you get to use a lot of fast units like stalkers, attack his base in cool angles, and then have awesome battles where your victory relies on YOUR ability to blink back wounded stalkers.

Warp prism harass, DTs, phoenix harass, there are really a lot of things in which you can be hyperactive in the good way

Terran would be good too, making drops, stutterstepping bio balls, dodging storms, microing hellions against zerglings.

[Karoht]

This part presents something of a contradiction there. If my present MMR is partially based on my performance two years ago...

Except that it isn't.
Remember that between WoL and HoTS the 'ladder' was effectively reset.
Also, it ranks you based on an average of your recent plays (I remember that Blizzard stated a range but the number of games and date range escapes me at the moment, go look it up on google), otherwise you would have to win an absurd number of games (or never lose) in order to overcome your early losses.

[Zevox]

It would be terrible if the computer automatically assumed you'd gotten worse over the break. Imagine it decided to put you into Bronze even though you've been following the metagame by watching Day9 while you improved your micro playing League of Legends or C&C or something. Some poor unsuspecting Bronze players are going to get roflstomped by someone horribly out of their league.

So it just assumes you are in the same place until it sees evidence otherwise.

Which would make sense if that influence ended after my placement matches did put me into bronze. But it doesn't appear to have.

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't take into account stuff that happened two years and an expo ago. Maybe you were just winning a lot of games, or they were losing a lot!

I can assure you I wasn't winning a lot of games. I've played exactly 8 so far (counting my placement matches), and won only 2 of those (one against someone else doing his placement matches, one against a bronze player). Maybe those gold players were losing a lot in their own league, but it would be very weird for me to get two of those in a row.

Except that it isn't.
Remember that between WoL and HoTS the 'ladder' was effectively reset.
Also, it ranks you based on an average of your recent plays (I remember that Blizzard stated a range but the number of games and date range escapes me at the moment, go look it up on google), otherwise you would have to win an absurd number of games (or never lose) in order to overcome your early losses.

Alright - though that contradicts what Kyuedo has been saying. Doesn't explain me getting paired with gold players when I'm in bronze though.

[Kyeudo]

though that contradicts what Kyuedo has been saying.

And you expected me to know what I'm talking about? There's your problem.

[Tectonic Robot]

And you expected me to know what I'm talking about? There's your problem.

Weeeell, if you don't know what you're talking about, you might not want to offer explanations, mate. ^^;;

[Zevox]

And you expected me to know what I'm talking about? There's your problem.

Yes. I figured you wouldn't be answering unless you were pretty certain you were correct. Or at least that if you weren't, you would say so.

[Kyeudo]

Yes. I figured you wouldn't be answering unless you were pretty certain you were correct. Or at least that if you weren't, you would say so.

Of course I was certain I was correct! Isn't everyone?

Honestly? I was telling you what I though the state of the game is. Most of my information about MMR was good the last time I read up on it, but I haven't really looked into the differences between WoL and HotS ladder.

[Spuddles]

HotS redid some of the league/MMR stuff. Leagues are far more indicative of skill level- I believe bronze is now bottom 12% of players while gold is like middle 30-some%.

If you're playing at off-times for your server, you'll be matched with people out of your league.

If you lose a lot of games, you'll start getting paired with people ranked lower than you- these gold players you're facing probably lost a bunch of games.

AFAIK, placement matches between expansions have little affect on each other. I think they probably use that data so GM players aren't getting stuck in bronze or something silly.

Also, if you haven't played a lot of recent games, the computer probably doesn't have a lot of data to work with. Remember, there's two aspects to the algorithm- finding a player that matches your skill, and finding you a player. The program prioritizes finding you an opponent over finding you a match, especially if it doesn't really know who to match you with.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh wow, I just looked at my last playthrough against an Easy AI... ye gods, I've got a long way to go.

Supply blocked nearly half the match, never did get all 24 SCV's in minerals, never expanded, average APM 13.

I know the theories, putting them into practice is somewhat more difficult. And at this point, I'd need a nuke to knock all the rust off.

[Zevox]

I know the theories, putting them into practice is somewhat more difficult.

Story of the entire game. So much multitasking, and somehow the games manage to go on for quite a while and yet still feel like everything is happening too fast. I always feel like I'm forgetting to do something and will suffer for it after the first couple of minutes. And I'm usually right.

[Gandariel]

If it's of any help, you only need 16 workers in your mineral line :P

They say 24, but 16 is perfectly ok. (from 16 on adding more SCVs gives you little advantage, so it's not really worth it when you can make workers at your expos)

And seriously, Snheekey, try the build i wrote earlier. It's really easy to follow, and it gives you just a good start for your game.

[Karoht]

Alright - though that contradicts what Kyuedo has been saying. Doesn't explain me getting paired with gold players when I'm in bronze though.

Except that it doesn't.
The system is at heart a matchmaking system so you can play the game. It is going to occasionally let slide a gold or platinum player playing against a bronze or a silver, for sake of giving you an opponent so you can actually play the game. So sayeth the mighty Blizzard.
Seriously, I have friends in Platinum who occasionally get matched up with people in Bronze. It isn't nearly all that uncommon.

The theory from Blizzard's end is that you occasionally get to see what higher play looks like. If you don't learn from your losses that is one's own problem. Also, from time to time there are people in higher/lower rankings who shouldn't be. Throwing a variance at people from time to time is a built in check.

Again, people might want to be googling... nah, you know what, here's a link instead.
https://www.google.ca/#q=starcraft+2...mmr+calculated

I know the theories, putting them into practice is somewhat more difficult.

In sports it's called Boxer Syndrome.
"The boxer always goes into the fight with a plan.
Then he gets hit."
It is alarmingly difficult to teach your brain to take what you know and put it into practice during a fast paced sport or a game. This is why emergency workers and military rely on training. Drill drill drill. It needs to be muscle memory. Other games with less 'spinning plates' or variables that need to be constantly managed, that muscle memory is easier. It is much harder to develop 'brain memory' where you just know what to do, even in a panic, even with a game entirely dependant on variables which need constant management.

But hey, weren't you ranked gold or platinum in WoL? You already know this stuff better than I do.

[Zevox]

Okay, I just played two more games, and came away very discouraged. It's pretty sad when you go into a match intending to practice blink Stalker harassment, get out the Stalkers and an Observer, but don't realize until you've got the Stalkers outside the opponent's base that you completely forgot to even build a Twilight Council, much less get blink. Not to mention finding that by the time you've done this, your opponent has built a big ol' force of Immortals that proceeds to roflstomp you.

Just... ugh. I'm increasingly feeling like this game has just too much multitasking for me, too many things I need to remember to be doing as the game goes on. Especially at the increased pace that multiplayer plays at. Maybe if it was at normal speed, or even just fast, but on faster it feels like there's no way I can keep up with everything.

[Karoht]

1-With practice, the multitasking won't feel so intimidating.

2-Hotkeys. Learn em, love em. If you don't like the configuration, customize. Make your life easier.

[Zevox]

1-With practice, the multitasking won't feel so intimidating.

Maybe. But do I want to do the amount of practice required for that? I'm already not having fun because I see how many horrible mistakes I'm making and feel like an idiot for them.

2-Hotkeys. Learn em, love em. If you don't like the configuration, customize. Make your life easier.

I already use them. First three for units (usually 1 for my main army, 2 for my Mothership Core, 3 for whatever else I may make), 4 for Nexi, 5 for Gateways, 6 and 7 for Robo and Stargates if I have them. That's one habit I didn't lose since last time I played, at least.