Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

[Karoht]

Totally called it.
Oh well, this is a good thing really.

[The_Jackal]

Totally called it.
Oh well, this is a good thing really.

I don't really interpret this as good, to be honest. Going F2P means that every aspect of the game will be skewed toward micro-transactions in lieu of just encouraging players to enjoy the game.

I'm beginning to question the premise of the whole persistent MMO model, myself. Don't mistake me, I like progression games. I like growing my characters, and I like the escapism of occupying a well-realized fantasy/science fiction world. But the price of that progression gameplay seems to be repetition. I don't mind paying the subcription fee, I really don't. The value premise of getting several hours of entertainment every month for $15.00 is still pretty good, but only so long as there's enough variety and new additions of content to keep monotony from setting in. And that's where the MMO universe really falls down. Even the most successful MMO of all time still has unbearably long fallow periods where content grows stale and repetition is enforced by reward schedules.

[The_Jackal]

Oh, my buddy reminded me of this:

[MCerberus]

Choice. Flexibility. Choose Your Path. Coming this Fall.

No premium free accounts (as in pay money into the system, gain some perks even when not subbed)
Only one pay level for subscriptions


They're... just a bit behind the SoE/Turbine times aren't they?

[Karoht]

I don't really interpret this as good, to be honest. Going F2P means that every aspect of the game will be skewed toward micro-transactions in lieu of just encouraging players to enjoy the game.

I'm beginning to question the premise of the whole persistent MMO model, myself. Don't mistake me, I like progression games. I like growing my characters, and I like the escapism of occupying a well-realized fantasy/science fiction world. But the price of that progression gameplay seems to be repetition. I don't mind paying the subcription fee, I really don't. The value premise of getting several hours of entertainment every month for $15.00 is still pretty good, but only so long as there's enough variety and new additions of content to keep monotony from setting in. And that's where the MMO universe really falls down. Even the most successful MMO of all time still has unbearably long fallow periods where content grows stale and repetition is enforced by reward schedules.

This is where the F2P model tends to shine. People can play in a transient nature. This is part of why I like Diablo 3 so much. I can pick it up and put it down when I want, and I don't feel like I've lost anything. Truth be told, I'd actually be willing to give Star Wars another chance under the F2P model, but at best I'll probably just play through the main story arcs and call it a day. And I will probably do so incredibly slowly. But that's fine. I play League of Legends the same way. Play a few games in a given month, and I don't touch it again for long stretches, but I don't feel like I'm losing something if I'm not constantly 'working on something' in that game.

With regards to that other MMO and repetition, I just avoid that sort of stuff. Endgame is where I tend to stay, and as much as Endgame has the most potential for it to feel repetetive, there's lots of ways to keep it fresh. Rotate new people in, test out different specs, try different strategies on the same boss, try to beat old records and set new benchmarks, or go and do old content and apply the same logic. There is plenty one can do to keep that content fresh and not entirely a grind, but not everyone is minded that way.

As for things like Daily quest grindage, I'll let you in on a secret. They usually aren't worth the effort. Hence why I tend to leave myself 'projects' for lull periods, such as daily quests and such. The rewards are typically only great for a few weeks of new content. If you're willing to wait, and you can already clear the progression content without those gated rewards, then you largely have no need of them so you can wait for equipment to drop from bosses, which also keeps the gear up aspect of the game a bit more fun. And when other types of content eventually become stale, I've got something to work on in the downtime.

This is before one factors in alts, and I always seem to catch a fresh strain of alt-itis in the lull right before a major content drop.

[Jayngfet]

*cough*

I'll just leave that right there.


But seriously, those numbers I ran weeks or months ago showing how much TOR was going to put EA in the hole. Those were optimistic estimates.

EA's new number, which I still take as certainly being a lie, puts them at being hundreds of millions in the hole from TOR alone and even going F2P still fails to solve many of the problems at the heart of TOR.

I'm just bitter though. I mean all these years no matter what I've said, the people defending guys like EA say "They're a buisness, they do it for the money!". Then, now, it turns out that the immoral, horrible, occasionally illegal things EA has done, the treating their employees like total crap, the cheap mo-cap work, the horrific mismanagement, everything ...failed to bring in the promised profits. All that lying, that gutting all those good things, all of it failed to make the impact it was supposed to make.

[The_Jackal]

*cough*

I'll just leave that right there.


But seriously, those numbers I ran weeks or months ago showing how much TOR was going to put EA in the hole. Those were optimistic estimates.

EA's new number, which I still take as certainly being a lie, puts them at being hundreds of millions in the hole from TOR alone and even going F2P still fails to solve many of the problems at the heart of TOR.

I'm just bitter though. I mean all these years no matter what I've said, the people defending guys like EA say "They're a buisness, they do it for the money!". Then, now, it turns out that the immoral, horrible, occasionally illegal things EA has done, the treating their employees like total crap, the cheap mo-cap work, the horrific mismanagement, everything ...failed to bring in the promised profits. All that lying, that gutting all those good things, all of it failed to make the impact it was supposed to make.

Oh, I totally agree with your assessment of EA. They've routinely and consistently botched their releases, and done a poor, poor job of ensuring the quality of their product. Saying 'They do it for the money' is BULLSH*T. Blizzard does it for the money. Valve does it for the money. EVERYONE does it for the money. Wanting to earn money for your work is not what makes EA a ****ty game publisher. What makes EA a ****ty game publisher this.

At the end of the day EA is founded on the Madden Franchise, and the dynamics of that market have informed their entire development philosophy. Making the next Madden game isn't a matter of innovating gameplay, you just shuffle in some new plays, tack on a feature, and shiney up the graphics. Next case. They're not a company run by game designers. They're a company run by marketing and licensing people. Once you understand that, you begin to understand WHY they seem to be incapable of getting any kind of consistent quality in their products.

[Avaris]

So...

Now that The Old Republic is going free to play, would it be worth getting into just for the single player aspects? I love the kotor series, but MMOs hold no appeal for me. I would never pay for a subscription based game, but might give free to play a shot.

If it is worth getting into for single player, which class would be best, or does it not really matter for the story? How would the level 50 cap affect pursuit of the plot?

[The_Jackal]

Sure! Taken as a single player RPG, SWTOR isn't bad at all. My gripes with SWTOR are in the lack of depth, immersion and variety, especially at endgame.

[Squark]

So...

Now that The Old Republic is going free to play, would it be worth getting into just for the single player aspects? I love the kotor series, but MMOs hold no appeal for me. I would never pay for a subscription based game, but might give free to play a shot.

If it is worth getting into for single player, which class would be best, or does it not really matter for the story? How would the level 50 cap affect pursuit of the plot?

I'd say the $15 startup fee they're going to charge is definately worth it for a playthrough of the Imperial Agent story, and the other imperial stories aren't bad either (Bounty Hunter starts and ends strong, but the middle is mostly filler, while the Sith Inquisitor has an interesting, if bizarre story, while the Sith Warrior is good apart from one rather headdesk inducing moment). The Republic stroeis are more hit or miss (I've rarely heard good things about the consular story, the TRooper story becomes formulaic in act 2 and act 3, the knight is decent if somewhat sue-ish, and the smuggler isn't bad, but it's high points are the lines and the low points are being forced to work with the republic)

[Sith_Happens]

So...

Now that The Old Republic is going free to play, would it be worth getting into just for the single player aspects? I love the kotor series, but MMOs hold no appeal for me. I would never pay for a subscription based game, but might give free to play a shot.

If it is worth getting into for single player, which class would be best, or does it not really matter for the story? How would the level 50 cap affect pursuit of the plot?

Oh, definitely. In fact, I'm pretty sure they set up the freemium model the way they did (someone over on r/swtor quite aptly described it as "pay-to-endgame") for exactly that reason. Starting in a month or two, the likely abundant people who just want KotOR 3-10 can have it for dirt cheap. It's actually kind of genius if you ask me.

[Seerow]

Oh, definitely. In fact, I'm pretty sure they set up the freemium model the way they did (someone over on r/swtor quite aptly described it as "pay-to-endgame") for exactly that reason. Starting in a month or two, the likely abundant people who just want KotOR 3-10 can have it for dirt cheap. It's actually kind of genius if you ask me.

Indeed, I'll probably be trying it. I was trying to get a trial invite a while back, but I can swing actually playing it with the F2P model.

All I need to do now is figure out how to increase the dedicated video memory for my on board graphics. Apparently my new laptop's default is 64mb and the game requires 256mb.

[Sith_Happens]

on board graphics.

Well there's your problem.

[Seerow]

Well there's your problem.

Well yes, I use my laptop for everything because I find it more convenient than having a separate PC when I play maybe one or two games per year.

Either way, the on board graphics aren't terrible, even if it's not great, everything is up to par except it only sets 64mb of ram aside for video (out of 8 gigs, I mean really? I wouldn't mind having a full half gig set aside for it). Google searching says most laptops have something that lets you increase that amount, but the how depends on the motherboard, so I just need to get around to calling the manufacturer for more info.

[The_Jackal]

If it's a genius move, I fail to see how this is going to shore up their bottom line. Spending 300M on a game that they're selling for $15 flat rate, and not getting any monthly subscription fees is really a tall order. And while a tiny minority of players might pony up the monthly fees to do endgame, that number is going to shrink consistently if they don't start putting out more/better endgame content.

[The_Jackal]

on board graphics aren't terrible

Yes, they are. You'll experience poor frame-rates and awful input delays as a result. As rule, mobile GPUs are terribly weak, and heavily constrained by heat, as a laptop has no room for the dedicated cooling a fully clocked GPU requires.

A laptop is for running workplace applications and a web browser. It's not sufficient to tackle any kind of serious graphical application of any type.

[Sith_Happens]

Yes, they are. You'll experience poor frame-rates and awful input delays as a result. As rule, mobile GPUs are terribly weak, and heavily constrained by heat, as a laptop has no room for the dedicated cooling a fully clocked GPU requires.

A laptop is for running workplace applications and a web browser. It's not sufficient to tackle any kind of serious graphical application of any type.

There is such thing as a gaming laptop. I should know, since I play SW:TOR on one and get a good 30 fps (which I know is laughable by PC standards, by I mostly play console games so I don't mind) with most settings maxed out, and I'm pretty sure my hard drive is the main bottleneck anyways (stupid inefficient game engine...).

You do, at the very least, need one with a dedicated graphics card though. Integrated graphics just plain don't cut it.

[AcXen]

So I've been out of the loop since mid-March or so. Just reactivated my account. Figured it'd give the game a shot again since they've added group finder, and some other stuff. Noticed Ebon Hawk is much more populated lately. Figured that had to do with the server transfers and such.

How many of those people on the Ebon Hawk part of the spreadsheet are actually active? I've got a slew of guys on that server in the 10-40 range. Figured if nothing else at least I could hook up with some like minded people. I know from reading through the thread that quite a few of you have a bunch of maxed level guys but are there people in the guild that actually run alts, or have lower level toons? Also, are you guys spread out among both factions, or mostly Republic? I see a lot of the characters on that spreadsheet are republic, but then some people have 2-3 Empire toons as well.

How's the group finder tool? I haven't actually used it as I spent last night mostly reacquainting myself with the game. Didn't look into too much of the legacy stuff either, not that my legacy on this server is any good at the moment.

Anyway, hopefully I can catch a few of you on sometime and run something.

[The_Jackal]

laughable by PC standards

Yeah, if your baseline of comparison is an Xbox 360, then you can get a gaming laptop that will meet that bar. But you can see other posts I've made if you want a contemptuous rant about the inadequacies of console systems. :P

If it works for you, by all means, use a laptop. But you're paying a high price in terms of cost/performance to get that portability.

How's the group finder tool?

Buggy. If you're trying to queue only as DPS, and you're playing an AC capable of tanking or healing, expect to be selected as a non-DPS role, routinely.

[VanBuren]

Unconfirmed: Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk Leaving BioWare

The rumor mill is in overdrive this Sunday evening with the surfacing of this report on GamersGlobal claiming that BioWare founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk have either left the company or will be exiting the development studio in the near future. This has led to discussion on both the BioWare forums and the SWTOR forums, though neither one provides anything more concrete to the story. Considering how sparse the two have been in recent months, though, it wouldn't surprise me if there's at least some serious turmoil going on behind the scenes:

Star Wars - The Old Republic is suffering from a shrinking subscriber base. An optional switch to F2P in autumn is supposed to turn things around. And in May, for the second time, several employees of Bioware Austin have been let go in a "restructuring effort". Another bad news could be that Bioware founders Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka might have left Bioware or could be in the process of leaving – possibly because of the limited success of the MMO that started as a challenger of WoW.

A trustworthy source has been told by an employee of Bioware Austin yesterday that neither Greg Zeschuk nor Ray Muzyka have been present at a Bioware Company Meeting in Austin, Texas, just a few days ago. The employee claimed that this has not been the case before at such a meeting. The six others members of Bioware Austin's leadership have been there. Also, Greg Zeschuk has not been seen for several weeks now, the Bioware Austin employee claims.

There are supposed to be internal rumours at Bioware Austin that Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk have left Bioware. According to our source, some employees at Bioware Austin fear that the company will be transformed into EA Austin.

Please note that this news is a rumour without any official confirmation.

So if Ray and Greg left to form another company, where would your allegiance lie?

Update: Chris Priestly, BioWare's community manager, has shot down the rumor on Twitter.

Why Star Wars: The Old Republic is Losing Subscribers

I'm reasonably sure that everyone has their own opinions on why BioWare's MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic is losing subscribers as of late, but they still might be interested in reading Cinema Blend's take on the matter. In short? The single player campaign alone can't sustain the title. Here's an excerpt:

The problem is that this epic quest ends. The player has killed his main nemesis, saved the galaxy and…now what? An NPC tells them to do daily quests, engage in player-versus-player, or join with other players to do Operations (“raids” in other MMOs”) or Flashpoints (“dungeons). There are no more story missions to pursue. It’s like the player’s been unceremoniously dumped into an entirely different game.

This new game is a very average MMO. The Operations have some interesting boss fights but there’s not enough content to keep serious raiders busy; most of the learning curve for each fight is simply adapt to strange bugs. The Flashpoints are more challenging and fun than the Operations but there’s little reason to run them more than once because they give crappier gear than the latter. Furthermore, the Operations are tuned in such a way that you don’t need to farm up Flashpoints for gear before you start them. The daily quests take too long to reach so they feel like busy work rather than a fun part of your gaming routine. The player-versus-player Warzones, meanwhile, have the same flag-running and territory-capturing that you’ve seen in any other MMO with PvP.

A player who doesn’t like the end-game options for Old Republic could just roll a new character. There are eight different classes in the game so that’s eight different BioWare-caliber stories to play through. Unfortunately, though, there’s a lot of shared content between different classes. For every unique class quest you complete, there’s maybe three or four quests designed for all classes. While my Sith Assassin’s storyline was a nice change from my Bounty Hunter’s, the thought of slogging through Nar Shaddaa’s quests again removed all enthusiasm.

[The_Jackal]

I can boil down the failure of SWTOR to retain subscribers very, very simply: The developers made a good single player game and overlaid it on top of a profoundly mediocre and derivative MMO, and no amount of machinima or voice-acting will redeem it.

Then there's the question of whether the MMO archetypes they've copied from WoW really suit the Star Wars IP, which I would argue that they don't. Star Wars is a pretty good universe, as properties go, but there's some canonical inequities that are embedded in the genre that don't really suit a multiplayer game. Simply put, you're either a light-saber-wielding, force-using death machine, or you're cannon-fodder. You might be able to tell a satisfying story about being cannon-fodder in that Universe, you might even be able to make a compelling single player game, but you can't expect to satisfy two players, one of whom gets to play a kung-fu telepath with a laser-sword capable of cutting through anything, the other getting to play Gunhaver. So, you're left with a Catch 22, where you can either be true to the source material or you can make a balanced game.

What's wrong with a balanced game? Well, to players who wanted to be in the Star Wars universe, being told they're getting a light-saber when what they're actually using is a glowing rattan sword gets old pretty fast.

[HalfTangible]

I can boil down the failure of SWTOR to retain subscribers very, very simply: The developers made a good single player game and overlaid it on top of a profoundly mediocre and derivative MMO, and no amount of machinima or voice-acting will redeem it.

Then there's the question of whether the MMO archetypes they've copied from WoW really suit the Star Wars IP, which I would argue that they don't. Star Wars is a pretty good universe, as properties go, but there's some canonical inequities that are embedded in the genre that don't really suit a multiplayer game. Simply put, you're either a light-saber-wielding, force-using death machine, or you're cannon-fodder. You might be able to tell a satisfying story about being cannon-fodder in that Universe, you might even be able to make a compelling single player game, but you can't expect to satisfy two players, one of whom gets to play a kung-fu telepath with a laser-sword capable of cutting through anything, the other getting to play Gunhaver. So, you're left with a Catch 22, where you can either be true to the source material or you can make a balanced game.

What's wrong with a balanced game? Well, to players who wanted to be in the Star Wars universe, being told they're getting a light-saber when what they're actually using is a glowing rattan sword gets old pretty fast.

TBF, Jedi and Sith in this timeline are numerous enough and weak enough (conservation of ninjutsu, anyone) that they probably could have plenty of 'cannon fodder' that could kill some, especially if 'how to kill a jedi' is part of our character's initial training (though our characters are supposed to be fairly elite - pretty sure Havoc Squad and an Imperial Agent are trained to kill force-users. like Atton said, 'ya just gotta be smart about it'

[HalfTangible]

I can boil down the failure of SWTOR to retain subscribers very, very simply: The developers made a good single player game and overlaid it on top of a profoundly mediocre and derivative MMO, and no amount of machinima or voice-acting will redeem it.

Then there's the question of whether the MMO archetypes they've copied from WoW really suit the Star Wars IP, which I would argue that they don't. Star Wars is a pretty good universe, as properties go, but there's some canonical inequities that are embedded in the genre that don't really suit a multiplayer game. Simply put, you're either a light-saber-wielding, force-using death machine, or you're cannon-fodder. You might be able to tell a satisfying story about being cannon-fodder in that Universe, you might even be able to make a compelling single player game, but you can't expect to satisfy two players, one of whom gets to play a kung-fu telepath with a laser-sword capable of cutting through anything, the other getting to play Gunhaver. So, you're left with a Catch 22, where you can either be true to the source material or you can make a balanced game.

What's wrong with a balanced game? Well, to players who wanted to be in the Star Wars universe, being told they're getting a light-saber when what they're actually using is a glowing rattan sword gets old pretty fast.

TBF, Jedi and Sith in this timeline are numerous enough and weak enough (conservation of ninjutsu, anyone) that they probably could have plenty of 'cannon fodder' that could kill some, especially if 'how to kill a jedi' is part of our character's initial training (though our characters are supposed to be fairly elite - pretty sure Havoc Squad and an Imperial Agent are trained to kill force-users. like Atton said, 'ya just gotta be smart about it'

[Beowulf DW]

Do my eyes deceive me? TOR is going Free-to-Play? I can finally get back into the Old Republic goodness!

Although, this does make me think that I'm right for thinking that Bioware should have kept The Old Republic a series of games rather than an MMO.

[The_Jackal]

TBF, Jedi and Sith in this timeline are numerous enough and weak enough (conservation of ninjutsu, anyone) that they probably could have plenty of 'cannon fodder' that could kill some, especially if 'how to kill a jedi' is part of our character's initial training (though our characters are supposed to be fairly elite - pretty sure Havoc Squad and an Imperial Agent are trained to kill force-users. like Atton said, 'ya just gotta be smart about it'

A fair point, but my issue is that being one of a horde of 10,000 crappy ninjas isn't the ride Star Wars fans are hoping to experience when they roll their jedi/sith. My point is that the WoW-inspired flavour of MMO combat doesn't suit the genre, regardless of which side of the lightsaber you choose. Even playing the Bounty Hunter, I felt like I was trying to drop even weak minions with a BB-gun. Really, the genre needs the FPS-like aesthetic of being a shot or two from death, both in the giving and receiving sense, rather than having everyone being carved from a 3 ton block of Cortosis.

[Squark]

Do my eyes deceive me? TOR is going Free-to-Play? I can finally get back into the Old Republic goodness!

Although, this does make me think that I'm right for thinking that Bioware should have kept The Old Republic a series of games rather than an MMO.

The problem is that KOTOR 3 would have had only a small fraction of the budget this had. Which means all we would have gotten would be the Jedi Knight story.

[GungHo]

The problem is that KOTOR 3 would have had only a small fraction of the budget this had. Which means all we would have gotten would be the Jedi Knight story.

But, we also, hopefully, might have gotten more focus of quality on that Jedi Knight story.

[NEO|Phyte]

Apparently that scavenger hunt event thing has started.

[Sith_Happens]

Apparently that scavenger hunt event thing has started.

Figured. It wouldn't really be a live event if they didn't start it during the week that I have family in town until Thursday.

[Gaelbert]

So if I'm going to pick this up (now that it's going FtP) to play as a KotOR 3, are there any classes in particular I should play to best experience the story and the lore? I'm particularly curious about references back to the original two games.