In a zombie apocalpyse

[Karoht]

wow..you've got a lot of trust in your buddies' marksmanship, putting yourself in the line of fire and all that

It's not even just that, it's the ability to intercept stragglers at close range, or the ability to hold a door and let the shooters cover a different angle if needed. Even just being an obstacle with a shield and blocking a door while the shooters clear an exit. It's high risk, but it can provide some vital cover when the brown stuff hits the fan.
Totally depends on how many people we have and what our armaments look like though, and the environment we are fighting in.

Clearing an apartment/hotel building, going room to room, having a guy with a shield and a melee weapon up front has value. Middle of a field with targets coming from all angles? Yeah, I'm probably a lot less useful, other than covering the rear as we maybe beat a retreat.

As for trusting the aim of others? I've been in situations with shields locked and people pressed together, swinging melee weapons and spears poking over my shield from the guy behind me, and arrows wizzing past. Never took a scratch, though there were close calls. It's managable, though arguably not ideal, and likely more dangerous with firearms involved. And if I do my job wrong, I'm a potential liability. Like I said, I'm aware of the risks, and will adapt as needed.

[THAC0]

One thing ive honestly wondered about our highly trained soldier/cop types here that have actually used their gun on somebody else. How was your accuracy while firing? I ask because, unlike a human who has a large number of vulnerable points that cover a rather sizeable area, head shot zombies are a way smaller target.

As a visual reference, im a deer hunter, and when I do target practice, the vital area im aiming for with my bow and arrows is roughly the size of the inner ring of a standard paper plate. Now, I can hit that at 30 yards 95% of the time. (meh, random flinches happen sometimes) A human skull though? Id say straight on thats at best half the target area, maybe even a third. Even in low stress scenarios, I wouldnt estimate my accuracy as being better than maybe 75%. In a high stress combat scenario against a moving target? No freaking way would I want to rely on my accuracy. It might be easier at range with a scoped rifle, that practically feels like cheating, but when dealing with zombies heading right for me? I just dont know how well id do.

So i ask those with actual experience in shooting something that wants to kill you too, how accurate would you judge your placement to be? Because a large part of me honestly thinks that 90% of us talking big about setting up sniper nests or going rambo and slaughtering zombies, are going to die when the day arrives, because although we can hit small targets at a shooting range fairly well, when its life or death, we wont be nearly as effective. And I dont like the idea of needing 6 shots per zombie because I cant hit such a relatively small target that is coming towards me to eat me.

Not experienced in actually shooting real people, but I just took a class focused around hitting human sized targets at a distance and I was quite able to consistently hit out to 400 yards (which was as far as the targets were set up). And I do hunt, just not people.

Of course, the above takes training.

[Traab]

Not experienced in actually shooting real people, but I just took a class focused around hitting human sized targets at a distance and I was quite able to consistently hit out to 400 yards (which was as far as the targets were set up). And I do hunt, just not people.

Of course, the above takes training.

It also revolves around not having to worry about being eaten by whatever you are aimed at. That was my main real concern. With minimal training, anyone with a rifle and a scope could be very accurate, but thats while at a range, or in other low to no stress scenarios. I cant help but think that in combat, with an army of the undead heading for you, that your accuracy might be affected noticeably.

[THAC0]

It also revolves around not having to worry about being eaten by whatever you are aimed at. That was my main real concern. With minimal training, anyone with a rifle and a scope could be very accurate, but thats while at a range, or in other low to no stress scenarios. I cant help but think that in combat, with an army of the undead heading for you, that your accuracy might be affected noticeably.

Indeed, but the nice thing about being able to shoot things 400 yards away is that they aren't yet close enough to noms your face.

Given that we can't really practice actually shooting people who want to kill you, timed practice at targets is one of the better substitutes. I have run a shoot-house with my pistol and know very much how that affects me. And it certainly does affect you.

[inexorabletruth]

I'd be the nigh insane paranoid sociopath who keeps a gun pointed at the new guys head until we know for certain (s)he hasn't been bitten. Yes, this would involve a strip search, but I don't care. Your privacy and dignity mean nothing to me in this horrifying post apocalyptic world.

Also, I'd build all the "Swiss Family Robinson" style rigs, equipment, and weapons for just in case we run out of ammo, fuel, or just need a quick escape.

And I would be covered head to toe in leather... at all times. Zombies have to bite to spread their disease. Let's see you bite through leather, chumps. And if they hunt by smell, I should smell more or less like a rotting corpse in a few days anyway... sweatin' in all that leather.

[Traab]

I'd be the nigh insane paranoid sociopath who keeps a gun pointed at the new guys head until we know for certain (s)he hasn't been bitten. Yes, this would involve a strip search, but I don't care. Your privacy and dignity mean nothing to me in this horrifying post apocalyptic world.

Also, I'd build all the "Swiss Family Robinson" style rigs, equipment, and weapons for just in case we run out of ammo, fuel, or just need a quick escape.

And I would be covered head to toe in leather... at all times. Zombies have to bite to spread their disease. Let's see you bite through leather, chumps. And if they hunt by smell, I should smell more or less like a rotting corpse in a few days anyway... sweatin' in all that leather.

Heh, keep in mind that while they may not be able to directly insert teeth into your arm, the pressure and tearing motion of the bite can tear skin without breaking through the leather. If it spreads through contact like that, you could find yourself catching zombieitis simply by the sweat of your brow washing some zombie saliva, or other fluids that may have spattered, to the torn section of skin under your leather gear. Thats always been the fridge logic moment for me with zombie spreading. If it works through fluids getting into your body, why doesnt the blood from uncounted exploded zombies spattered all over you, ever seem to turn anyone outside of 28 days later? Its ALWAYS a bite. It doesnt seem to happen when that zombie gets its torso blown open by a breaching round at a distance of 6 inches, covering the hero from head to toe in guts, despite such openings as eyes, nose, and mouth being coated.

[Ravens_cry]

Because most film makers are not epidemiologists.

[SamBurke]

A note about gun jamming, for a few of the above: let me recount to you the story of one particular time at the range. So, I'm borrowing a pistol from a friend, and ready to use it. Firing a regimented amount of shots, about 50 if I remember correctly. Guess how many times that gun jammed, out of three magazines? At least three times, and I think it was more like six or eight.

Funny thing, too, I was using A GLOCK. A GLOCK. Why did this happen? Well, a few things. I was using an extremely relaxed grip, far, far, too much. In addition, the ammo in the gun was a cheap store brand. That said, this was a perfect scenario. Slow fire. No dirt had ever touched this gun, despite its wear.

So, make sure you know how to de-jam your gun in a firefight. Otherwise, you're dead.

[Story Time]

It's one of those fascinating things about the science(!) of shooting and marksmanship. Some cartridges perform better in certain guns than others. Therefore, one should always test the compatibility of one's weapons with the loads they are using.

Let no one ask this of the survivor, "You took an un-tested weapon into battle?"

[THAC0]

A note about gun jamming, for a few of the above: let me recount to you the story of one particular time at the range. So, I'm borrowing a pistol from a friend, and ready to use it. Firing a regimented amount of shots, about 50 if I remember correctly. Guess how many times that gun jammed, out of three magazines? At least three times, and I think it was more like six or eight.

Funny thing, too, I was using A GLOCK. A GLOCK. Why did this happen? Well, a few things. I was using an extremely relaxed grip, far, far, too much. In addition, the ammo in the gun was a cheap store brand. That said, this was a perfect scenario. Slow fire. No dirt had ever touched this gun, despite its wear.

So, make sure you know how to de-jam your gun in a firefight. Otherwise, you're dead.

Or stop limp wristing.

But yes, one should know how to clear malfunctions. That said, if you do get a type three (ones and twos being fairly quick to clear), you better have a backup or good cover.

[Traab]

It's one of those fascinating things about the science(!) of shooting and marksmanship. Some cartridges perform better in certain guns than others. Therefore, one should always test the compatibility of one's weapons with the loads they are using.

Let no one ask this of the survivor, "You took an un-tested weapon into battle?"

Now, are you talking brand names when you refer to different cartridges?

Like, if im used to using Winchester cartridges, but after I looted the ammo store I mainly had PMC or Nosler, so i should practice working with them before going out zombie hunting? I pulled up a list of ammo brands, sorry if I screwed up some names, im a bow hunter and rarely touch guns. So is that what you meant? Or were you talking about something else?

[Karoht]

I'd be the nigh insane paranoid sociopath who keeps a gun pointed at the new guys head until we know for certain (s)he hasn't been bitten. Yes, this would involve a strip search, but I don't care. Your privacy and dignity mean nothing to me in this horrifying post apocalyptic world.

There are probably better ways to deal with that. Just saying. Your remarks regarding privacy and dignity VS safety of self and others has some weight.

Also, I'd build all the "Swiss Family Robinson" style rigs, equipment, and weapons for just in case we run out of ammo, fuel, or just need a quick escape.

Cool as that is, can you take it up a notch and go "Gilligan's Island" with it? Those guys made a coconut jetpack at one point.
Okay, serious question, what would you be likely to be building?

And I would be covered head to toe in leather... at all times. Zombies have to bite to spread their disease. Let's see you bite through leather, chumps. And if they hunt by smell, I should smell more or less like a rotting corpse in a few days anyway... sweatin' in all that leather.

Fun facts about scent.
Sweat has lots of things in it. Bodily toxins, salt, water, pheromones, testosterone, and a few others. The pheromones and testosterone are giveaways that you are alive, not dead. They are also what key most predators (not just zombies) towards their prey in the first place. Aaaaand they have the nasty habit of of carrying on the wind remarkably well. Annoyingly so. Hence why hunters use suits that absorb these substances and spray masking scents like sawdust or pheromones of other animals.

Leather = good armor, but it you'll be marinading in your own juices and smelling rather tasty to the zombies, like a slow roasted chicken.

[inexorabletruth]

Cool as that is, can you take it up a notch and go "Gilligan's Island" with it? Those guys made a coconut jetpack at one point.
Okay, serious question, what would you be likely to be building?

Honestly? Probably not, but that would be cool. I can do all sorts of things with rope pulleys and levers, but coconut technology isn't my field of study.

What can I build with these things? It depends largely on my resources. I used to build contraptions like that all the time at a warehouse job I worked at (to increase productivity, or course), and when I was a kid I worked at the remote control hobby shop my dad owned, where I built custom commissioned planes, boats and cars. I can build anything from basic counterbalanced rope ladders (for a quick escape up the wall of a fortified building) to an ultralight aircraft so that we can just fly away to a safe region. Sling shots are another great choice. I know how to build sling shots that can fire multiple rounds. And of course, there's always an endless selection of various traps, weapons, and tools that can be crafted by jerry-rigging some rope, cloth, wood, or whatever other junk you find lying around.

Leather = good armor, but you'll be marinading in your own juices and smelling rather tasty to the zombies, like a slow roasted chicken.

Well, you make a good point, but how do you get the zombies off your scent? They always seem to know where the non-zombies are, and they never seem to attack other zombies. My only guess is they hunt by scent. But how do you make yourself smell like a zombie without rubbing zombie viscera all over yourself, which could risk infection?

[Johel]

Well, you make a good point, but how do you get the zombies off your scent? They always seem to know where the non-zombies are, and they never seem to attack other zombies. My only guess is they hunt by scent. But how do you make yourself smell like a zombie without rubbing zombie viscera all over yourself, which could risk infection?

Well... first, that would require some experimentations.

No point covering yourself in Z guts if they were just hunting by sound.
Or sight (fast, fluid motion ? FOOOOOOOD !!!!)
I mean, this can be the reason they are shambling slowly : they want to limit the noise and the visual stimulation.
So it might be that people would be perfectly fine just advancing slowly while making as little noise as possible.

Then there's the possibility that they combine all methods like most predators :
Sight, Sound, Smell.

And maybe they even add heat on top of it through heightened touch sense.
After all, they wouldn't mind touching each other.
If it's cold, not running away, smell rotten and isn't screaming, that's "no food".

[Traab]

Yeah honestly the how do they hunt thing has always been a bit iffy. Take the dawn of the dead remake. That mall had THOUSANDS of zombies around it, and those people lived there for, im assuming, weeks. Why the hell would the zombies continue to swarm an area that may or may not have humans, and at the least has humans you just cant get at? No predator in the wild would ever besiege say, a tree that had a monkey in it on the off chance that it might one day decide to wander down into biting range. Most of the time in movies there really isnt any "hunting" shown. Its generally the heroes stumble across a swarm and have to run for it or fight, or the zombies show up in what could be hunting, or just as likely could be random roaming. There might be a few times where a loud noise attracts zombies, but that makes me wonder if they spend a lot of time running after solo zombies who knocked over a cabinet or something.

[Karoht]

Honestly? Probably not, but that would be cool. I can do all sorts of things with rope pulleys and levers, but coconut technology isn't my field of study.

Cool, now I know what to major in. Thanks!

Well, you make a good point, but how do you get the zombies off your scent? They always seem to know where the non-zombies are, and they never seem to attack other zombies. My only guess is they hunt by scent. But how do you make yourself smell like a zombie without rubbing zombie viscera all over yourself, which could risk infection?

Bathe regularly, boil down pine needles to make tea and drink it (good for you, vitamin C, the diuretic action of any tea will also help your body expell toxins and waste and hormones faster), collect the oils that come up as you boil down the needles and rub yourself in that. Drink lots of water, it will dilute the hormones and salts that you sweat out. Eat less protein if possible (not easy given survival situations, proteins and starches tend to become integral) as high protein diets cause your bodily fluids to be more pungent. Wash your clothing as best you can. If you want to wear leather, fine. But have some cloth padding inside that is absorbant and easily washable. Now I'm not in any way suggesting that one would be able to walk down a zombie filled street like this, but they aren't likely to smell you from 2 blocks away and follow after you, or locate you in a building as easily, or out in the woods.

In fact, if you want to wear leather, you probably want to pattern it off of medieval armor, whereby one wore a quilted layer called a gambeson or jerkin. Not only did it keep one warm, or hold mosture to the body to keep one cool, but the padding really helps soften impacts more than one would think. And leather over a certain thickness, I would not expect a zombie to be able to bite or tear through any time soon. Heck, blunt force trauma to such protected areas would pretty much be nil.


As for how zombies hunt, it's probably just safer to assume that they use all 5 senses to hunt and track the way other predators do. Treat zombies with the same regard as a hungry adult tiger or wolf pack or veloceraptor (jurassic park version) at all times.

[Story Time]

Now, are you talking brand names when you refer to different cartridges?

Like, if im used to using Winchester cartridges, but after I looted the ammo store I mainly had PMC or Nosler, so i should practice working with them before going out zombie hunting?

Brand...has something to do with it, yes. There's more to it, however. Any cartridge pressed together by hand, or by a single person, is called a hand-load. Let's ignore those for now. Bullet size is roughly the thing that gun enthusiasts call, "Caliber." But there is so much more to a load than the size of the bullet. The shape of the bullet, material, weight, density, and the atmospheric pressure at which the load explodes ( yes, firing a gun is a mini-explosion ) all contribute.

Even more, is the type of powder used, the size of the grains, the shape of the grains, and the pressure at which the load was sealed. Taking all of this into account when the powder explodes inside the cartridge, vibration is created. This vibration influences the bullet while it is inside the weapon and influences its flight through...whatever substance it passes through.

This vibration is measured by sine wave. ( Gee, did we really just start talking about physics? ) The vibration can be clearly measured by how close to the center of the aiming mark that the bullet came. Some loads, "shoot wide," in some fire-arms. Not all variation on the practice range can be attributed to human error.

That said, the variation is not usually more than four inches in any one direction. Six inches would be rare. At close ranges, depending on the size of the target body, this would not mean much. At longer ranges, can certainly matter.

I've had the pleasure of test-firing a number of different rifles in what is called, "Bench shooting." Essentially, this means that the rifle is not moved and remains sedentary through the process of loading and firing. I've seen three different brands of the same caliber of bullet perform three individually different ways at ranges of one hundred yards.

Honestly, I imagine that similar principles would apply to bow hunting. Time and practice would be the only real ways to sort these out...which munitions to match with which weapon.

[Traab]

Brand...has something to do with it, yes. There's more to it, however. Any cartridge pressed together by hand, or by a single person, is called a hand-load. Let's ignore those for now. Bullet size is roughly the thing that gun enthusiasts call, "Caliber." But there is so much more to a load than the size of the bullet. The shape of the bullet, material, weight, density, and the atmospheric pressure at which the load explodes ( yes, firing a gun is a mini-explosion ) all contribute.

Even more, is the type of powder used, the size of the grains, the shape of the grains, and the pressure at which the load was sealed. Taking all of this into account when the powder explodes inside the cartridge, vibration is created. This vibration influences the bullet while it is inside the weapon and influences its flight through...whatever substance it passes through.

This vibration is measured by sine wave. ( Gee, did we really just start talking about physics? ) The vibration can be clearly measured by how close to the center of the aiming mark that the bullet came. Some loads, "shoot wide," in some fire-arms. Not all variation on the practice range can be attributed to human error.

That said, the variation is not usually more than four inches in any one direction. Six inches would be rare. At close ranges, depending on the size of the target body, this would not mean much. At longer ranges, can certainly matter.

I've had the pleasure of test-firing a number of different rifles in what is called, "Bench shooting." Essentially, this means that the rifle is not moved and remains sedentary through the process of loading and firing. I've seen three different brands of the same caliber of bullet perform three individually different ways at ranges of one hundred yards.

Honestly, I imagine that similar principles would apply to bow hunting. Time and practice would be the only real ways to sort these out...which munitions to match with which weapon.

I imagine that it would apply to arrows as well at longer ranges, but considering there is no explosive component, its all about weight distribution, and materials in the arrow itself, so there is less room for variance than in a bullet. And at 20-30 yards, (my normal shooting distance) any variance is within the margin of human error. I doubt id really notice if I picked up a random arrow, (assuming it was in good condition) and shot it.

[mattrwh]

If it works through fluids getting into your body, why doesnt the blood from uncounted exploded zombies spattered all over you, ever seem to turn anyone outside of 28 days later? Its ALWAYS a bite. It doesnt seem to happen when that zombie gets its torso blown open by a breaching round at a distance of 6 inches, covering the hero from head to toe in guts, despite such openings as eyes, nose, and mouth being coated.

There's a scene in Walking Dead where they literally rub themselves in zombie guts to cover their scents. They *barely* addressed the contamination issue, and basically said, don't get it in your eyes or something. I'm sorry but if I was covered in infected zombie guts from head to toe I would definitely be touching my face every 5 seconds. And all it takes is just a little bit of sweat to travel from your brow to your eye and bam, zombitis. I appreciated that 28 days later addressed this, but I haven't seen it realistically portrayed in anything else.

[Mono Vertigo]

There's a scene in Walking Dead where they literally rub themselves in zombie guts to cover their scents. They *barely* addressed the contamination issue, and basically said, don't get it in your eyes or something. I'm sorry but if I was covered in infected zombie guts from head to toe I would definitely be touching my face every 5 seconds. And all it takes is just a little bit of sweat to travel from your brow to your eye and bam, zombitis. I appreciated that 28 days later addressed this, but I haven't seen it realistically portrayed in anything else.

It's a valid concern, but ironically enough, not in that context. [Walking Dead spoiler ahead]

Spoiler

Show

Every living human is infected by zombitis already anyway. I'm not too shocked by the group being unaware of the point you're raising, and they were not going to suffer the consequences of being (re)infected.

Now, other infections (because, after all, we're talking about walking corpses)? I would definitely be concerned about them. You might not get zombitis, but you might, at best, lose your eye.

[mattrwh]

It's a valid concern, but ironically enough, not in that context.

Spoiler

Show

Everyone living human is infected by zombitis already anyway. I'm not too shocked by the group being unaware of the point you're raising, and they were not going to suffer the consequences of being (re)infected.

Now, other infections (because, after all, we're talking about walking corpses)? I would definitely be concerned about them. You might not get zombitis, but you might, at best, lose your eye.

Crap! I wish I hadn't read that spoiler. haha (I'm not too well versed in the walking dead universe)

[Mono Vertigo]

Gah, sorry! I had assumed that putting it under a spoiler would be enough to mark it as a, huh, spoiler.

[Karoht]

I consider the guts thing to be a bit of a handwave.

If I cover you in tiger guts, a tiger is still likely to kill you.

But it's really a minor thing. It's not a trick I'm likely to attempt any time soon unless I'm absolutely desperate.

Cool trick I learned recently.
When hunting in winter, put snow in your mouth. Masks the scent of your breath, and hides the breath from being spotted.

[mattrwh]

Gah, sorry! I had assumed that putting it under a spoiler would be enough to mark it as a, huh, spoiler.

curiosity killed the uh... well you know.

[Mono Vertigo]

I consider the guts thing to be a bit of a handwave.

If I cover you in tiger guts, a tiger is still likely to kill you.

Tigers are smarter than zombies, for starters. They're also more likely to eat other tigers than zombies eating zombies (due to their well-known love for fresh, living-or-barely-dead flesh). And they also have better senses.
Zombies have a good sense of smell, normal hearing, normal-to-nonexistent sight, and that's all. Zombies are unable to think; if they see something that moves like a zombie and smells like a zombie, they won't suspect something is wrong. They only do if the pseudo-zombie starts smelling like delicious living human meat.

[Coidzor]

I often wonder how they're supposed to be good at smelling across distances with their often mangled faces and sometimes completely missing noses.

[Karoht]

Tigers are smarter than zombies, for starters. They're also more likely to eat other tigers than zombies eating zombies (due to their well-known love for fresh, living-or-barely-dead flesh). And they also have better senses.
Zombies have a good sense of smell, normal hearing, normal-to-nonexistent sight, and that's all. Zombies are unable to think; if they see something that moves like a zombie and smells like a zombie, they won't suspect something is wrong. They only do if the pseudo-zombie starts smelling like delicious living human meat.

Correct on all counts.
The tiger was probably the worst example I could have used, now that I come up with it. That was on par with comparing The Predator to a cow.

[mattrwh]

I often wonder how they're supposed to be good at smelling across distances with their often mangled faces and sometimes completely missing noses.

So i guess we're ruling magically created zombies? I've noticed that the discourse seems to circle around the nature of bio zombies. If they were magic none of this would matter, but it would also mean that someone was probably directly controlling them giving them the edge of intelligence on their side.

but yeah, the whole mangled body, mangled face, super powerful senses thing never made sense to me either.

[dehro]

pheromones, testosterone

what do those smell like?

[Karoht]

@Dehro
Pardon, but I can not find a gentlemanly way to reply, and as such will decline comment.