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    Default A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    The eight schools of magic

    Most people know that there are eight schools of magic: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy and Transmutation.

    We also all know that it takes either an inborn talent or years of study to master even simple spells. Many also believe that wizards are intelligent individuals with masses of power at their fingertips.

    While this may be true to a certain extent, in truth it takes a manner of different types to master different spells. An Evoker is made of tougher stuff than a Conjurer, while an Illusionist is sharp with his tongue, as well as his spells.

    The crunch:
    Each of the eight schools uses one of five of the ability scores. Dexterity is excluded as it, really, has no place in any of the schools.

    The way this "fix" works is by forcing wizards to pick and choose which spells they really want. And by extension, force them to carefully decide which ability scores are most important.



    The schools of magic require the following ability scores and by extention, the saving throws use a different score as well. (And a reason for choosing that ability), note that this only applies to Wizards. Magic is more "natural" to Sorcerers, thus all schools are based off charisma for them:

    Abjuration: Intelligence. Abjuration spells are usually defensive in nature, and being wise or strong doesn't help in knowing what is going to be damaging.

    Conjuration: Intelligence. Making something fly across the room is rather simple. Teleporting hundreds of miles requires you to know what you are doing.
    Summoning sub school: Charisma, instead. Ordering a beast to do your work requires a forceful personality.
    Calling sub school: Charisma, instead. Same reason as above.
    Creation sub school: Constitution, instead. Same reason as Evocation and Transmutation.

    Divination: Wisdom. Unsurprising, really. After all, the trope is a wise old oracle. Not a "Only somewhat-wise-but-can-summon-a-demon" oracle.

    Enchantment: Charisma. Understanding some one's mind is the first step in getting them to do what you want. Being socially inept does not help you.

    Evocation: Constitution. The evocation description states: "In effect, they create something out of nothing.". I personally think that doing that should drain the caster a lot. Thus, only the hardiest of evokers would attempt high level magic.

    Illusion: Charisma. Again, understanding patterns of thought is key to manipulating those patterns.

    Necromancy: Constitution. Necromancy manipulates energies that places stress on a living body.

    Transmutation: Intelligence. Since you are breaking apart and reforming structures, it pays to know what those structures are.

    Now then, onto the ability itself:

    Spells: A Wizard casts arcane spells, the same type as a Sorcerer or Bard, which are drawn from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list.

    In order to learn or cast a spell, the Wizard must have an intelligence score of 10 + the level of the spell AND the appropriate ability score (Shown above) equal to 10 + the spells level. Saving throws are based solely off the schools associated ability score.

    Like other spellcasters, a Wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. The Wizard's base daily spell allotment is shown on the PHB table: The Wizard.

    In addition, a Wizard receives bonus spells for having a high intelligence score.

    Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
    Last edited by Sgt. Cookie; 2012-06-15 at 09:00 AM.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    You probably should make the Calling subschool use Charisma just like Summoning does. Creation should probably be Constitution (similar idea as Evocation).

    What level are the bonus spells for a high ability mod? Any level you want?
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    You've literally made Wizards better.

    Read that statement again; you've literally made Wizards better.

    Here's an example. Let's take an usual Wizard at 20th level. He's invested significantly in the following three ability scores: [Insert any ability score here, likely Wisdom or Charisma. Personally, I'm gonna use Charisma for this example], Constitution, and Intelligence. He has a Belt of Magnifince [or whatever it's called, it's the item that grants a bonus to all ability scores] +6. He's also purchased tomes to increase Intelligence, Charisma, and Constitution by 5. He has a boost of 11 to his primary scores; he specifically invested evenly between Intelligence, Charisma, and Constitution, with two going to Intelligence, two going to Constitution, and one going to Charisma. His stats look like this:
    Str: 8+6=14
    Dex: 14+6=20
    Con: 14+6+2+5=27
    Int: 16+6+2+5=29
    Wis: 8+6=14
    Cha: 14+6+1+5=26
    We now have a Wizard with more spells, more incentive to increase Charisma, and more incentive to increase Constitution. He can presently cast half again as many spells as he used to be able to. He's a better Wizard than the stock Wizard. Nothing else needs to be said.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    You probably should make the Calling subschool use Charisma just like Summoning does. Creation should probably be Constitution (similar idea as Evocation).
    Alright, will do.

    What level are the bonus spells for a high ability mod? Any level you want?
    I am going to word it as "You use half your ability score to determine how many and how powerful bonus spells you can cast."

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Lord View Post
    Stuff about how I made Wizards better
    Perhaps change it to "You may select two schools to apply your bonus spells to. You may change the school(s) when preparing spells."
    Last edited by Sgt. Cookie; 2012-02-24 at 12:28 PM.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Hm. I might steal that idea for my own wizard overhaul. Base different spells on different ability scores. I did think of things like that a little, but this system is pretty elegant.

    That said: I don't really see the STR-Necromancy connection. I'd probably put it at Charisma, you are extending your willpower over dead bodies and the souls of the departed.

    Transmutation is also a bit complicated, really. Transmuting oneself is a good fit for constitution. But how about spells that transform one element into another, in the style of Rock to Mud, or that transform others against their will, like Baleful Polymorph?
    Last edited by Eldan; 2012-02-24 at 12:36 PM.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Just remember to give credit where credit is due.

    EDIT: I stuck it as strength to avoid more than two schools going to a single ability score.
    Last edited by Sgt. Cookie; 2012-02-24 at 12:36 PM.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Certainly.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    As for transmutation: You are taking energies that are very difficult to contain, so only hardy individuals can withstand, let along command, those energies.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    Perhaps change it to "You may select two schools to apply your bonus spells to. You may change the school(s) when preparing spells."
    I would leave Intelligence as the only stat that grants you bonus spells. The spell may tax your body as well as your mind, but preparing the spell is still a matter of pure intellect and concentration. (It's also both simpler than the alternative, and won't increase the power at all by granting more spells/day).

    To cast a spell from a given school, you must have an Intelligence of 10+spell level, as usual, and the school's ability at 10+spell level. Saving throws are based purely on the school's ability. That way, MAD is introduced, the wizard is forced to spend money and effort increasing multiple ability scores, and his power goes down slightly.

    On the school:ability associations themselves, I find myself a bit dubious about necromancy and strength. Constitution seems far more fitting, both for the "withstanding powerful energies" and "vital life force" bits. If you're worried about one ability governing too many schools, perhaps make transmutation Intelligence? After all, If you're going to mess with the physical structures of matter, you'd better know what those structures are first. [I wouldn't count Conjuration towards anything, as it's broken up into so many little pieces]
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I would leave Intelligence as the only stat that grants you bonus spells. The spell may tax your body as well as your mind, but preparing the spell is still a matter of pure intellect and concentration. (It's also both simpler than the alternative, and won't increase the power at all by granting more spells/day).
    Yeah, alright. That makes sense.

    To cast a spell from a given school, you must have an Intelligence of 10+spell level, as usual, and the school's ability at 10+spell level. Saving throws are based purely on the school's ability. That way, MAD is introduced, the wizard is forced to spend money and effort increasing multiple ability scores, and his power goes down slightly.
    I'm not too sure about this, especially when the school's associated ability IS intelligence. What would you, or anyone, suggest to do about that?

    On the school:ability associations themselves, I find myself a bit dubious about necromancy and strength. Constitution seems far more fitting, both for the "withstanding powerful energies" and "vital life force" bits. If you're worried about one ability governing too many schools, perhaps make transmutation Intelligence? After all, If you're going to mess with the physical structures of matter, you'd better know what those structures are first. [I wouldn't count Conjuration towards anything, as it's broken up into so many little pieces]
    So, break up conjuration into all the different sub schools, each with it's own associated stat?
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    3e (not 3.5e) psionics kind of did this. You may want to look at that. I think the 3e srd is still online somewhere.

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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    I'm not too sure about this, especially when the school's associated ability IS intelligence. What would you, or anyone, suggest to do about that?
    Nothing? I think this was pretty much what you had proposed. If you could elaborate on your concerns, I could address them more easily.

    So, break up conjuration into all the different sub schools, each with it's own associated stat?
    An interesting idea, but not what I meant. I was suggesting making another school governed by Intelligence; you had expressed concern earlier about having too many spells associated with one school, so I was attempting to head that off by pointing out that Intelligence really only governs one and a half schools right now, given how many subschools are in conjuration.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Analysis View Post
    3e (not 3.5e) psionics kind of did this. You may want to look at that. I think the 3e srd is still online somewhere.
    I'll have a look, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Nothing? I think this was pretty much what you had proposed. If you could elaborate on your concerns, I could address them more easily.
    Your recommendation was that the spells require intelligence AND another stat. My concern was schools that used intelligence as its associated stat, thus negating the MAD this system was trying to incorporate.

    An interesting idea, but not what I meant. I was suggesting making another school governed by Intelligence; you had expressed concern earlier about having too many spells associated with one school, so I was attempting to head that off by pointing out that Intelligence really only governs one and a half schools right now, given how many subschools are in conjuration.
    Ah, that makes more sense now.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    Your recommendation was that the spells require intelligence AND another stat. My concern was schools that used intelligence as its associated stat, thus negating the MAD this system was trying to incorporate.
    Well, it's certainly not any worse than before. Abjuration barely has any spells that require a save, and I can't think of many from Conjuration that require saves and aren't [creation].
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    UPDATE:

    Changed the Transmutation ability score and added MAD into learning a spell.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Conjuration needs a single ability score; all the others have it, and it's awkward to have one like that.

    Also, I propose the following, to make previously weak schools more attractive:

    Abjuration, Conjuration [Creation], Non-[Polymorph] Transmutation, and Evocation are merged together, and called Alteration. It uses Constitution as it's Ability Score.

    Illusion, Enchantment, and Conjuration [Calling] are merged together, and called Psychomancy. It uses Intelligence as it's Ability Score.

    Divination and Necromancy are joined and become Necromancy. It uses Wisdom as it's Ability Score. This one needs something to even it out with all the other schools. Perhaps give it spells that deal with Negative or Positive energy?

    Conjuration [Summoning] and Transmutation [Polymorph] join to become Beastiomancy. It would use Charisma for it's Ability Score.

    Yeah, I'm not sure how this would work, but it sounds at least neat to me.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Why would divination fall under necromancy? I may just be missing something, but that makes absolutely no sense to me.

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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Why would divination fall under necromancy? I may just be missing something, but that makes absolutely no sense to me.
    Historically, Divination was attributed to communing with the spirits of the dead and thereby gaining the answer to something. Hence, Divination to Necromancy.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Lord View Post
    Abjuration, Conjuration [Creation], Non-[Polymorph] Transmutation, and Evocation are merged together, and called Alteration. It uses Constitution as it's Ability Score.
    This is... like, a lot of schools into one. I would put Abjuration and Transmutation into an "Alteration" school, and Evocation and Conjuration [Creation] into a broader Evocation school (Something from nothing).

    Illusion, Enchantment, and Conjuration [Calling] are merged together, and called Psychomancy. It uses Intelligence as it's Ability Score.
    I feel like Conjuration [calling] should go with the rest of the summon spells in Beastiomancy.

    Divination and Necromancy are joined and become Necromancy. It uses Wisdom as it's Ability Score. This one needs something to even it out with all the other schools. Perhaps give it spells that deal with Negative or Positive energy?
    Negative energy spells are already Necromancy. But you could put healing spells into here, since they're messing with life-force.

    Conjuration [Summoning] and Transmutation [Polymorph] join to become Beastiomancy. It would use Charisma for it's Ability Score.
    See above point about adding [calling] spells.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Why would you want to kill the humor potential of necromancy?
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    To simplify things, why not have the Wizard choose their primary casting stat at character creation, rather than a specific school. Schools that match the stat are cast at full progression, with full save DCs; schools that key off a different stat use primary casting stat -6 or something similar.

    For example, I'm a Wizard keyed off Constitution with a Con of 18. I can cast Evocation, Creation and Necromancy school spells using my full 18 Con, and my number of spells/day is based on my Con score. Any spells of the other schools are limited as though I had 12 Con (I.E. can't cast any spells over 2nd level, lower save DCs etc.)

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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    For this necromancy, you have been charged 75 GP for the onyx used.


    In all seriousness though, what you suggested is not the intent of this nerf. The idea was to introduce MAD into the Wizard, meaning he has to pick and choose what spells he wants AND has to maintain his intelligence score.

    Your solution... simply makes a true SAD caster. Not very good. At all.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    I am extremely disappointed that Transmutation and Evocation are not Strength based. Muscle Wizard would be quite displeased.

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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Problem with the necromancer. Many Necromancers somehow become undead, whether as a Lich or Necropolitan...ect

    So to base it off Con....

    Probably not the greatest thing ever.

    I suggest Charisma.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Good point Madara.

    Perhaps a clause that Undead Wizards, despite not having a Con score, may keep and increase it for casting purposes only.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    Good point Madara.

    Perhaps a clause that Undead Wizards, despite not having a Con score, may keep and increase it for casting purposes only.
    Or just say that they use CHA instead, same as Concentration.
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    The other option to giving spellcasters MAD is to split up the basics of spellcasting instead of the specifics (i.e. spells).

    for instance, what I did was split spellcasting into needing three ability scores: one for magical strength (for save DCs and for determining how high a level spell you can cast), magical flexibility (for determining how many spells yuou know), and magical endurance (for determining how many spells per day you can cast).

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    The breakdown went like this:

    {table=head]Spellcasting type|Strength|Flexibility|Endurance
    Arcane/Prepared|Cha|Int|Con
    Arcane/Spontaneous|Cha|Wis|Con
    Divine/Prepared|Wis|Int|Cha
    Divine/Spontaneous|Wis|Wis|Cha[/table]

    The only other thing that I needed to change was the method of learning spells:
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    Prepared casters all have a spellbook (divine casters use a "prayerbook" or holy text), or some other limit list to draw their prepared spells from. At each level they automatically get to write down a number of spell levels equal to their class level + their Flexibility modifier. The maximum level of spell they can copy down from buying/trading spells is equal to their flexibility modifier (so a wizard with a +4 Int modifier can't copy any spells of 5th level or higher into their books; they need to learn them by leveling up, or steal/borrow them from another caster's book).

    Spontaneous casters gain bonus spells known (same chart as bonus spells per day) from their flexibility modifier.


    Lastly, your endurance ability affected the number of active spells you can have at once: 1/2 your class level + your Endurance ability.

    Three easy steps, easily explained in the fluff, and casters are SAD, are much less likely to be able to do everything, and can do much less at once.


    As for your idea of breaking up the ability scores of the different schools, I'd go about it like this (just my opinion, of course): divide the different schools into whether you think they require power, finesse, or perception/willpower. Power gets Charisma, finesse gets Intelligence, and perception/willpower gets Wisdom.

    Personally, I'd split it like this:
    Abjuration - Wisdom
    Conjuration - Charisma
    Divination - Wisdom
    Enchantment - Charisma
    Evocation - Charisma
    Illusion - Intelligence
    Necromancy - Wisdom
    Transmutation - Intelligence.

    This creates a sort of balance between the mental/casting - physical/melee thing, where both sides need to be good in all three of their main ability scores to be good, and having low scores in the other side is still not attractive.

    However, you still have the issue of how to do spells per day in such a way that the switch to ability scores remains important, without potentially giving a caster too many spells per day.

    I'm not quite sure how to go about that, but I'll think on it.


    ~Phoenix~
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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ashtagon's Avatar

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    Jan 2009
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    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    The OP's idea is very similar to what 3.0e psionics did. Everyone said 3.0e psionics sucked because it forced them to be MAD. Personally, I liked the fact that it forced psionics to be MAD. As primary "casters", they need something to take them down a notch.

    As such, this seems like a good idea.

    My only real concern is that it messes up the house rules I have which divides up the schools of magic in a completely different manner (I use 16 colleges which do things very differently, rather than the 8 schools).
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  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Anderlith's Avatar

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    Jun 2011

    Default Re: A wisecracking wizard should not control the dead [3.5, Misc, PEACH]

    Dresden begs to differ...


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