Familicide Mega-Thread

[XxXU2XxX]

He couldn't have been happy as a clam! Look at what the Draketooths did to him! That Weepie's demise is the saddest thing in the history of this comic!

[Eigenclass]

The ABD episode occurred presumably about two weeks before the OOTS showed up on the Western Continent. It would seem like a fairly major disaster, given how prolific the Draketeeth are shown to be, across multiple generations, and the horrendous scope of Familicide. Unless the Western Continent is heavily inbred, you would expect almost everyone to at least know one person who's been mysteriously killed - probably entire families at a time.

However, absolutely no one was talking about it in Sandsedge, the caravan, or in the Empire of Blood.

You'd think the ruthless dictators that run the Western Continent to hear about it through their intelligence network, or at least for Malack as a high priest of the death-god to take an interest. But it doesn't seem like anyone at the state dinner Tarquin held were talking about it, and if Malack were aware of this, why wouldn't he mention it to a fellow high-level cleric?

So is this because:

1. ...of a continuity error (hey, even Star Trek had them)
2. ...stuff like this happens all the time in the Western Continent and no one cares.
3. ...shenanigans are afoot?

[Smolder]

I'm betting a third of the population of Reptilia dropped dead.

I'm sure it's been noticed, but since the Order has only been on the Western Continent for a couple weeks, they haven't had time to do a thorough survey of recent death rates.

[JCarter426]

I vote for 2 or 3, or some combination thereof, with a corollary that it only happened a couple weeks ago.

[NerfTW]

I'm betting a third of the population of Reptilia dropped dead.

I'm sure it's been noticed, but since the Order has only been on the Western Continent for a couple weeks, they haven't had time to do a thorough survey of recent death rates.

Oh my god. And the diplomat had "information for the Queen's earholes only"!

Also, in regards to the people, it's entirely plausible that the caravan simply either didn't know anyone, or didn't bring it up. Or even if they did, why would the Order take notice? Given the cutthroat nature of the region, finding a family dead in their homes isn't that surprising. Especially since there's nobody collecting all the reports and noticing they common thread of no visible wounds.

[Elemental]

There's also the possibility that such an event was covered up.
However, the likely event is that no one realised what it was, and because individually, they would have only see only a few people die at most, they didn't notice the connection.

[Goosefarble]

Considering this continent's crazy way of treating life (EoB in particular) I'm guessing not that many people noticed. It was just a few caravaneers and peasants dropping dead from unknown causes - probably people are going to assume some sudden illness or heart attack or something.

[Elemental]

And even if they noticed the lightning, they'd assume one of two things:
In the case of an important person, high-powered magical assassination.
In the case of someone less important, there was a crazy wizard somewhere nearby.

[Alex Warlorn]

Familicide increases the chance of the caster to be killed by herself.

I'd bet that's how Haerta bit it... Someone found her distant half-cousins and tricked them into mugging her. She destroys them with a thought, then tosses on a Familicide for good measure.

That . . . makes perfect absolute sense.

[Smolder]

Oh my god. And the diplomat had "information for the Queen's earholes only"!

When Tarquin finds out that their army has been decimated by a mysterious pink lighting from the sky, he won't waste time invading Reptilia "for their own safety" of course.

[Smolder]

That . . . makes perfect absolute sense.

If you can get a relative from another continent, you can force the pink lightning to travel around the globe before striking her, giving her just enough time to read the note you left for her, letting her know who set her up.

[Zea mays]

Now I wonder if Kyrie would have informed anyone in the elven authorities about the familicide spell.

[ti'esar]

Oh my god. And the diplomat had "information for the Queen's earholes only"!

I still think Gourntonk was just background color, but if he wasn't, this definitely seems a lot more likely now. I don't know if we have any reason to assume that Reptilia was particularly devastated, but they would certainly be keeping an eye on things like this.

As far as the main topic, I suspect a more plausible question is "How come Tarquin's group didn't notice Familicide?" - and perhaps more significantly, "what happens when they do".

[Ron Miel]

Considering this continent's crazy way of treating life (EoB in particular) I'm guessing not that many people noticed. It was just a few caravaneers and peasants dropping dead from unknown causes - probably people are going to assume some sudden illness or heart attack or something.

Hardly. It was entire families dropping dead. The montage shows at least one Royal-looking family dying. A man sits on a throne, and a woman wears a tiara. Penelope's family were/ are rich. Presumably they all died. And if Orrin's technique of seducing a rich woman is standard Draketooth M.O. then many victims are going to be wealthy and important families.

I've got a similar question
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235220

[Secret8znMan]

Wait, if Familicide only affects living relatives then doesn't that mean that Girard must be alive? Or at least alive when V cast Familicide? If Girard wasn't alive, it wouldn't have killed his relatives.

[hoff]

Well, the Draketooth family is big, but if you consider the spam of a full continent it's not that big. Most cities wouldn't have anyone related to them.

[Steward]

Heck, it's possible that that plan actually turns out to be too convoluted -- she might have killed a legitimate enemy who happened to be a distant relative with it.

[SaintRidley]

Wait, if Familicide only affects living relatives then doesn't that mean that Girard must be alive? Or at least alive when V cast Familicide? If Girard wasn't alive, it wouldn't have killed his relatives.

Girard's children and grandchildren and nieces and nephews sharing the bloodline of the dragon is not dependent on him being alive. There is no reason the spell should skip over them if he were dead or for it to require him to be alive to recognize the familial relationship.

[Dr.Epic]

So is this because:

1. ...of a continuity error (hey, even Star Trek had them)

A wizard did it!

Get it?

[Jay R]

Let's see, there's a revolution every year or so. In the last week we've had an invasion, bunches of slaves burned on a hill, a parade commentator slain in public in mid-commentary, and a great entertainment centered on watching people die, in which the crowd cheered the guy who had already killed 37 people.

To the extent that the familicide was noticed at all, the reaction was divided between "Meh," and "Mysterious circumstances? Not another one! When will they find a cure?!?"

[oppyu]

It's possible that Tarquin and co. are aware of something happening, but didn't feel like revealing that to the Order. If you're a military state, you hardly want to announce that your forces have been decimated by some kind of epic magic.

Or it could just be that they live in a violent warzone in a world where magic is real. Combine that with the fractured and highly segregated nations, and I could see how nobody would make the connection between the deaths.

[t209]

What if Draketooth married a stranger, got pregnant but got miscarried? DOes the stranger still count as relative?

excuse me? Do you mind answer me my theory!

[Math_Mage]

Unlikely or else the spell basically leaves at least 5% of the target's family alive due to the Natural 20 rule which runs contrary to the spell's stated purpose of killing everyone related to the target... Period.

Fair point. I always forget which rolls apply nat 20 and which don't.

V went on to say "And I have extinguished their own family lines as well! Countless parents, siblings, and children, dead--down to the last cousin!" This, after we've already gone through all the relatives of the ABD. The issue with this is that the original description of the spell makes sure to say "directly related" and "living creature" several times; "directly related" seems incongruous with this, the widest possible relation, and is completely redundant, and "living creature" is totally useless if it has no effect on the effects of the spell. "Directly related" by the common definition (source, means the direct line of descent, not "any being that shares any ancestors with you".

There is no issue with extinguishing the family lines of the Draketooths' abandoned consorts. It's right there in the spell description, Clause 2.

Similarly, there is no issue regarding "living creature" because it DOES affect the spell, by limiting the number of potential Clause 2 targets. If Penelope's child had been dead before Familicide was cast, the child would not be a valid Clause 1 target. Hence Penelope would not be a Clause 2 target, because Clause 2 specifies direct relations of Clause 1 targets.

Finally, "direct relation" is not an issue because it has been subsequently clarified.

If we don't take V's original gloating as the absolute definition of the spell, there's no problems with that, but it also allows for the second idea. The Tarquin-Nale-Elan claim relies on taking something not very likely to be mentioned as definite proof that isn't relevant...so the "directly related" and "living creature" wording used several times should have more relevance to how the spell works, if anything.

I have no idea what you're arguing here, except that somehow you manage to allow for the second idea when there's nothing at all that allows for it. There is no evidence of indefinite recursion, and no reason to suppose it.

You're making a pretty big assumption that the Draketooth clan is, in fact, part of that first wave. I'm not sure I can agree, as the spell's first wave would have been Momma dragon's family line. Assuming that the Draketeeth are part of that takes some pretty creative defining of that pool of people. It's possible, but I don't find it likely.

The Draketooths are Clause 1 targets because the dragon that sired the Draketooth clan is a Clause 1 target, a blood relative of ABD. Were this not the case, Penelope would not have died.

Further, this comic DOES prove recursive jumps. Yes, both Penelope and her hypothetical child would have been the blood relative of a Draketooth, and so valid targets of the second wave. As would every other donor parent and their half-siblings. But would their cousins? Parents? Their siblings?

Yes. They would all be blood relatives of Penelope's Draketooth child. Not complicated.

Also, as an aside, when you're trying to make an arguement about this comic, insulting the comic and it's creator is probably not the wisest way to go about it. The crack about the Draketooth being Targaryens was pretty uncalled for.

You consider that an insult? Daenerys certainly puts the lie to your supposition. And I doubt Rich is particularly insulted by the comparison to George R.R. Martin (though for my money, OotS does not suffer from the endless worldbuilding sequelitis that permeates A Song of Ice and Fire--but that's another thread).

[Crusher]

Also, Tarquin wasn't especially curious about how Penelope and her family died, because he thought he already knew: Nale did it.

[Math_Mage]

I'm betting a lot of that information hasn't been collected and analyzed. Most of the kingdoms don't trust each other enough to reveal that kinds of damaging information. Tarquin is one of the few people in a position to put the pieces together, but he doesn't seem to care. Of course, Tarquin's defining characteristic is not revealing what he knows until the appropriate moment, so who knows what he knows.

EDIT: No, Tarquin didn't think Nale did it until he found out Nale was hanging around. That's at least a week, possibly more, where Tarquin had no reasonable explanation for Penelope's death (hence 'mysterious circumstances').

[Warren Dew]

The ABD episode occurred presumably about two weeks before the OOTS showed up on the Western Continent. It would seem like a fairly major disaster, given how prolific the Draketeeth are shown to be, across multiple generations, and the horrendous scope of Familicide. Unless the Western Continent is heavily inbred, you would expect almost everyone to at least know one person who's been mysteriously killed - probably entire families at a time.

However, absolutely no one was talking about it in Sandsedge, the caravan, or in the Empire of Blood.

You'd think the ruthless dictators that run the Western Continent to hear about it through their intelligence network, or at least for Malack as a high priest of the death-god to take an interest. But it doesn't seem like anyone at the state dinner Tarquin held were talking about it, and if Malack were aware of this, why wouldn't he mention it to a fellow high-level cleric?

So is this because:

1. ...of a continuity error (hey, even Star Trek had them)
2. ...stuff like this happens all the time in the Western Continent and no one cares.
3. ...shenanigans are afoot?

I think it's a combination of 1. and 2.

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if anything can be learned by tracing the exact paths of the lightning bolts in panels where multiple people got hit by them. In the camels panel it might mean three people slept with a Draketooth! And the king would have a daughter and her child killed.

My theory is an "up and down" one. Step 1 goes up, say 3 generations, then down to the last descendant from those great-grandparents (it might be only 2 generations, but "down to the last cousin" makes me think at least 2 here, and 3 seems more likely because . . . ). This is where Penelope's kid dies, but not yet Penelope (no dragon blood here!)

Step 2 goes up 3 generations from each victim of the last step (so up from the kid of Penelope to her grandparents) and then down to the last descendent (killing Penelope's cousins - that is why I think 3 generations makes sense).

I don't know if "dead relatives" blocks a line but have no reason to believe that it does.

This would kill a heck of a lot of people/dragons, but not all of them. The spell has to stop somewhere!

I don't know if my theory fits in with dragon lifespans/age of the world though.

[term3186]

I think its probably a combination of things:

#1. The Western Continent is in a constant state of flux and killing. While a large number of deaths would've been noticed (especially in the case of say, a royal family), the deaths are probably spread out enough that no one connects all of them. Furthermore, some people would probably claim credit for some of the deaths for their own benefit.

#2. The Order has been running in some fairly small circles lately. Hanging out at the royal palace with Tarquin's inner circle (why should they notice?), in the gladiator arena cells (they know nothing, and no one would bat an eye at a couple of them dropping dead).

#3. Possibly the most important point (and it kind of goes along with number one). The Giant simply hasn't shown people freaking out over the spell. Partly because the Order has been traveling in a closed circle, and there is no reason to view the deaths of a bunch of random people around the continent, and because he didn't want us to know about it until the big reveal. There has been a little bit of foreshadowing, including the messenger from Reptilia, but if we had a lot of people talking about "families" dropping dead, the big reveal might've been a bit anticlimactic.

[SmaugTheYounger]

I wonder what Tarquin will do once he realizes Penelope's death was V's fault. But for the moment, the wizard is out of the picture again.

[B. Dandelion]

Also, as an aside, when you're trying to make an arguement about this comic, insulting the comic and it's creator is probably not the wisest way to go about it. The crack about the Draketooth being Targaryens was pretty uncalled for.

Why would you take that for an insult? It was a joke about how one of my favorite authors used a term another of my favorite authors used all the time when talking about one particular family clan. I figured I couldn't have been the only one to have started a little at the reference to "the blood of the dragon".

(Ironically, if the Draketooths had been MORE like the Targaryens, the body count would have been a lot lower...but eww.)