League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF! And Janna!

[Neoseanster]

I've been thinking of this since the discussion of Lulu top, using a support in a non 0cs support role (by support I mean Janna, Taric, Soraka, Sona).

Janna's kit does allow for insane counter ganking measures if they attack your bot lane and in that circumstance it isn't fantastically hard to hit. However in a ganking role, she's very fast, has a slow, a knock up (which is harder to hit if they're running away admittidly) and a shield to increase her/lanemates AD. Plus her ult is going to be crazy good if you can get in the right position.

I'd assume the thing that would really let her down is a lousy clear time even with something like wriggles. How did you find her overall Neo?

Rune/mastery setup for that?

Well, I dunno what HE ran but you can jungle Janna with either AD or AP and 21/0/9 works just fine, though if you wanna bruise, that's also doable. Gale + Shield = Best Jungle-kit Ever™.

I played her as a bruiser in my game last night, yeah. Armor yellows, attack speed reds, blues, quints, 21/9/0 masteries. Early skill order was EQEW, did a standard ancient golem start. I plan to try an AP jungle build tonight and see how that goes, I do quite enjoy AP Janna mid.

As for how it performed? I was quite happy all in all, but she's not the next Lee Sin or anything. Her damage was pretty average, even subpar, and she's very squishy in a straight fight early on, but her clear time wasn't bad, and my HP stayed near to full with a good leash. She offers good CC, fantastic once she has her ultimate, but most of that is from the massive slow on her W, her hard CC pre-6 only lasts .8 seconds and isn't impossible to miss. Against someone with a blink who isn't massive overextended you can't do much, unlike Maokai, Alistar, etc, who can offer significant hard CC from a good range.

I wasn't really able to successfully gank Katarina at all, she'd just Shunpo away. Our Wukong was mid and got quite fed anyway, having gotten early double buffs when we ganked Rammus at his red, so he shut her down pretty single handed. I had much better luck counterjungling and ganking top/bottom than I did ganking middle, especially once I had my ultimate. Once I got my boots of mobility and my Oracle's Elixir I was just a ward clearing and ganking machine, and I was able to occasionally solo dragon when I found it ward-free and saw everyone was busy elsewhere. It went well.

[Zen Master]

So um, by accident and demand, I wound up playing (jungle) Amumu in a game. I don't own Amumu, and never tried him before, but it went surprisingly well. We lost, but still .... so I wonder, how does he play? I wound up getting wriggles first, which felt kinda silly, but ... I didn't have time to research.

Also, I got Rylai's rather than abyssal, which I guess was also silly. Also, I started with tantrum rather than despair, which ... yea.

Any pointers?

[Lix Lorn]

I tried teemo
It went terribly
I'm sticking with on-hit Lulu for my adorable AS yordle needs.

[toasty]

HotShotGG, who is fairly famous for his Cho play, almost always grabs a Wit's End on Cho. I certainly do.

He doesn't always buy it, but he admits that its a very good item. One of the things I like to think of is that you can play Chogath as a Bruiser with Wits End+Frozen Heart, or you can play him as a full tank with something like Omen+FoN.

The best way to view chogath is as a laning tank who's damage build is CDR and Onhit. There are a LOT of items that are good on Chogath that people don't often buy. For instance: Spirit Visage. Shurelias. Aegis. Rylais. Atmas. Its really depressing to go into solo queue and see nothing but cookie cutter builds. I'm pretty sure I'm the only GP I've ever seen buy Shurelias. And Shurelias is one of the best items for GP late game. 100%. No one ever buys Spirit Visage on anyone except Vlad or Warwick, yet they forget that Galio, GP, Mundo, Chogath, Irelia, Trundle and a LOT of other heroes benefit from Spirit Visage.

I'm gonna be a hipster and say Sion.

Technically Sion's W is kinda a skill-shot. I admit that Vlad and Ryze don't have skill shots, unless you count Vlad's Ultimate.

So um, by accident and demand, I wound up playing (jungle) Amumu in a game. I don't own Amumu, and never tried him before, but it went surprisingly well. We lost, but still .... so I wonder, how does he play? I wound up getting wriggles first, which felt kinda silly, but ... I didn't have time to research.

Also, I got Rylai's rather than abyssal, which I guess was also silly. Also, I started with tantrum rather than despair, which ... yea.

Any pointers?

For Amumu I would start Philo and HoG. Then get probably Merc treads followed by Aegis. After that its kinda whatever your team needs. Shurelias. Omen. WotA. Rylais. Abyssal. Frozen Heart. FoN. Basically anything.

Don't get wriggles though. Its pretty bad on Amumu. He doesn't need it either.

[Mirrinus]

If Sion's W is a skillshot, then Randuin's Omen is also a skillshot. As is Vlad's Tides of Blood. Or Soraka's Starcall.

[Neoseanster]

So um, by accident and demand, I wound up playing (jungle) Amumu in a game. I don't own Amumu, and never tried him before, but it went surprisingly well. We lost, but still .... so I wonder, how does he play? I wound up getting wriggles first, which felt kinda silly, but ... I didn't have time to research.

Also, I got Rylai's rather than abyssal, which I guess was also silly. Also, I started with tantrum rather than despair, which ... yea.

Any pointers?

WEWQ then whatever you like best. W for better damage, E for better jungle survivability and clear time, Q for more stuns. You can start regrowth pendant, build philosopher's stone, then just build whatever tanks items counter the other team. Some AP helps if you can fit it in, but it shouldn't really be a priority.

He doesn't always buy it, but he admits that its a very good item. One of the things I like to think of is that you can play Chogath as a Bruiser with Wits End+Frozen Heart, or you can play him as a full tank with something like Omen+FoN.

The best way to view chogath is as a laning tank who's damage build is CDR and Onhit. There are a LOT of items that are good on Chogath that people don't often buy. For instance: Spirit Visage. Shurelias. Aegis. Rylais. Atmas. Its really depressing to go into solo queue and see nothing but cookie cutter builds. I'm pretty sure I'm the only GP I've ever seen buy Shurelias. And Shurelias is one of the best items for GP late game. 100%. No one ever buys Spirit Visage on anyone except Vlad or Warwick, yet they forget that Galio, GP, Mundo, Chogath, Irelia, Trundle and a LOT of other heroes benefit from Spirit Visage.

Boots/Warmog's/Atma's/Phantom Dancer/Phantom Dancer/Phantom Dancer. Best Cho'gath build ever.

Technically Sion's W is kinda a skill-shot. I admit that Vlad and Ryze don't have skill shots, unless you count Vlad's Ultimate.

I have seen so many Vlads occasionally overestimate the range on Tides of Blood and miss with it.

[Winthur]

So um, by accident and demand, I wound up playing (jungle) Amumu in a game. I don't own Amumu, and never tried him before, but it went surprisingly well. We lost, but still .... so I wonder, how does he play? I wound up getting wriggles first, which felt kinda silly, but ... I didn't have time to research.

Also, I got Rylai's rather than abyssal, which I guess was also silly. Also, I started with tantrum rather than despair, which ... yea.

Any pointers?

You are very flexible in the rune department. Reds can be either Mpen or Attack Speed or AD or even Armor; Mpen lets you do more damage in ganks (though not to jungle creeps) and the rest are useful for tackling with the jungle creeps
Yellows are pretty much best on Armor. Blues are completely choice (Magic resist [per level] recommended), quintessences can be anything.
Max our R>E>W=Q; whether you get more ranks in W or Q first is your preference, W is more DoT damage (handy for objectives and tanky DPS) and Q is shorter cooldown and more burst.
If you start regrowth + 1 pot, with good runes you shouldn't die or even drop too low to jungle creeps but be wary of aggressive counterjunglers like Lee Sin (note that at full health you are actually not that terrible of a duelist). Farm the jungle as much as possible and only gank lanes before level 6 if you find a clear opening to do so (so no, don't overwork yourself trying to kill champions). If your blue was stolen and you can't have a chance at their blue, start off with Tantrum (E) rather than Despair (W) and kill small camps or your red buff with a leash.
Post level 6 try ganking as often as your ultimate is up. Your ultimate along wtih Q or flash is a great initiation spell, abuse it for teamfights.
Build tanky. Philosopher Stone should be good enough for your early game mana needs, later if you want you can get Glacial Shroud or Catalyst (for a Banshee's Veil). Sunfire, Randuin's, Frozen Heart are all viable armor options, and against magic damage, Abyssal, Banshees and FoN work. Going Warmogs can be useful; when you have accumulated enough resists or if you just have a lead. Remember that you can build your Philosopher Stone into Shurelia's Reverie. You can also get a WotA if you want an offensive option.
Initiate on people, ult groups, and beware of getting kited - when smart people see Amumu they run away. Pay attention to people like Janna who can ruin your initiation.

[Zen Master]

Thanks all ... I can add another tank to my roster =)

[Silverraptor]

So um, by accident and demand, I wound up playing (jungle) Amumu in a game. I don't own Amumu, and never tried him before, but it went surprisingly well. We lost, but still .... so I wonder, how does he play? I wound up getting wriggles first, which felt kinda silly, but ... I didn't have time to research.

Also, I got Rylai's rather than abyssal, which I guess was also silly. Also, I started with tantrum rather than despair, which ... yea.

Any pointers?

Contact Mario. He's the expert on jungle amumu. But I think cloth+5 pots is the standard still.

[Eurus]

Contact Mario. He's the expert on jungle amumu. But I think cloth+5 pots is the standard still.

I've heard Regrowth start is viable? I've never tried it.

[Math_Mage]

I've heard Regrowth start is viable? I've never tried it.

Totally. Early Philo Stone is strong on Mummy, just like other junglers that don't need Wriggle's.

[Silverraptor]

Totally. Early Philo Stone is strong on Mummy, just like other junglers that don't need Wriggle's.

See? I haven't jungled mumu in too long a time to know about the new meta. Need to work on that.

[Math_Mage]

See? I haven't jungled mumu in too long a time to know about the new meta. Need to work on that.

That's not really new, though...I jungled mummy all through last year with a Philo, and I know Dan Dinh did too, when he bothered.

[Temotei]

See? I haven't jungled mumu in too long a time to know about the new meta. Need to work on that.

Cloth + 5 is still good, though. Regrowth leaves him lower than the former, which leaves his already predictable jungling even more vulnerable to counterjungling or invasions.

[u-gotNOgame]

Jungle Amumu

With a good runepage Regrowth +1 is easily doable (I run Magic Pen reds, flat armor yellows, and mr/level blues with MS quints). If you don't have a runepage like that or pre-20 Cloth 5 is solid (since usually you just build it into an aegis). With a good pull your clear time isn't terrible but strong duelist/counter junglers might give you some problems. I usually go Philo-boot1-HoG-boot 2(tabi or mercs)-aegis. After that it's really pretty open. I love frozen heart on Amumu, it solves a lot of his mana issues and since you hope to be near lots of people anyways the passive is nice. For MR I usually just pick up an early negatron cloak and build it into a FoN or Abyssal late game, though versus certain team comps I could see a banshee's veil being useful. If you have a double bruiser comp or a Vladimir or what not and can get away with it Rylai's isn't bad, in general Amumu likes health so even soul shroud isn't terrible if you have some mana hungry champions.

I usually start WEEQ into R>E>W>Q. Look for your first gank at level 4 and try and save your Q for the chase rather than to initiate. If nothings open just keep farming. I also run Smite/Exhaust a lot instead of flash/smite. Generally try and let your lane initiate then run in with W on, if they flash immediately let them go and just come back a bit later. If they don't/it's down pop your exhaust and go for the kill. If they flash after you hit them with exhaust usually you can Q after them since they'll have cleared out of the minion wave and the stun allows your teammate to catch up. Between exhaust, red buff, and a short stun on your q + any other CC from your ally kills aren't terribly hard to secure. Post 6 your 2.5 second root is just deadly in ganks.


-UGNG

[Silverraptor]

That's not really new, though...I jungled mummy all through last year with a Philo, and I know Dan Dinh did too, when he bothered.

I haven't played amumu in the jungle since the jungle rework.

[fred dref]

I haven't played amumu in the jungle since the jungle rework.

Again, Amumu could do a Regrowth start in the old jungle with no problems.

[Silverraptor]

Again, Amumu could do a Regrowth start in the old jungle with no problems.

Well, I didn't know that.

[Reynard]

After much care and deliberation, I have decided on my optimal Lux build, taking into account three thing:

Tear of the Goddess = Bad Early Game.
Laser Beams = Awesome.
Hats = Stylish.

Spoiler

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You have to use that Lux Skin because it's the only one that makes sense with the Tome and also because it's the best. Also you start with two Dorans Rings, but I didn't put those in because I don't like working with GIMP.

[Eurus]

So... I'm curious. How does one deal with Olaf? Can't disable him, he's too beefy to burst down easily, normal defensive stats are of limited use versus true damage...

[Eldariel]

So... I'm curious. How does one deal with Olaf? Can't disable him, he's too beefy to burst down easily, normal defensive stats are of limited use versus true damage...

Kite. He has no hard CC nor any mobility abilities. Also, Health still works against his true damage so Warmog's is a good option. GA, Zhonya & co. are also obviously awesome and Armor does remove most of his damage in spite of Reckless Swing. And he does die to your whole team's damage. Obviously carries with natural escapes are very much preferable against him.

[Neoseanster]

First impressions of AP jungle Janna are pretty good... I went 0/4/12. But, that was against the other team's Skarner who was 3/4/1, so I'd say I came out ahead there. I went attack speed reds (just to help on the initial clear), armor yellows, flat AP blues and quintessences, 21/9/0 masteries, taking the various AP-y stuff, and started a Doran's Ring.

Initial clear was a fair deal harder, but that's to be expected starting a Doran's. It was still pretty easy with a good leash... when I tested in a custom game without one, I just barely managed to get both buffs and level 4 with about 10 HP and no mana left. It'd be far easier if you started cloth/5, but I didn't want to waste the gold.

It performed very well in team fights (as Janna always does!), better than the bruiser build I used last time, and it ganked very well (as Janna always does!). AP has far less dueling ability, though, slow clears of ancient golem/lizard elder, and pretty much can't solo dragon. I'd call them pretty equally viable, with the choice more dependent on what your team needs more between stronger shields/heal and extra DPS.

Lane AP Janna actually gets pretty impressive damage once you're rolling deathcap and lichbane, but I don't think you can reliably get enough gold for that in the jungle. This game certainly didn't go long enough, they surrendered by 25 minutes.

________________________________________________

And on another note! 1902 elo now, platinum for the first time, wee! This has been a good series of games.

Spoiler

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And now to NEVER PLAY ANOTHER RANKED GAME AGAIN.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I tried teemo
It went terribly
I'm sticking with on-hit Lulu for my adorable AS yordle needs.

Having tried AS Lulu, I have to agree. Sorry AS Teemo.

[tyckspoon]

So... I'm curious. How does one deal with Olaf? Can't disable him, he's too beefy to burst down easily, normal defensive stats are of limited use versus true damage...

One on one? Build health, try to bait out the ult (and then run like hell until it's done), try to prevent him from picking up the axe when he uses Undertow so he can't spam/permaslow you with it. Some kind of grievous wounds effect is good to help stop him from just draintanking with Vicious Strikes, and attack speed reduction reduces the impact of his passive.

Speaking of which, Olaf gets a lot more dangerous when he's low health, and a canny Olaf is liable to let you burst him only to then pop all his stuff, rip you apart with his 80% bonus attack speed, and come out healthy. So unlike most champs, if you have decent burst to use on him you probably want to save it until he's lower instead of unloading it upfront- Olaf's mindset is 'his abilities are all on cooldown and my passive bonus is high, time to engage' instead of the more typical 'oh crap I almost died, better back off before his abilities come back up.'

[ex cathedra]

After much care and deliberation, I have decided on my optimal Lux build, taking into account three thing:

Tear of the Goddess = Bad Early Game.
Laser Beams = Awesome.
Hats = Stylish.

Spoiler

Show

You have to use that Lux Skin because it's the only one that makes sense with the Tome and also because it's the best. Also you start with two Dorans Rings, but I didn't put those in because I don't like working with GIMP.

Man up, replace two hats with Mejai's+Lichbane.

[Lix Lorn]

Having tried AS Lulu, I have to agree. Sorry AS Teemo.

Teemo SHOULD be better... but Lulu's utility and early game Q-burst is so nice D=

[fred dref]

Hey Dogmantra.

[Terribad]

After much care and deliberation, I have decided on my optimal Lux build, taking into account three thing:
<snip>

Suggest the following:
1. Sorc boots instead of CDR boots. Between masteries, Morellos and blue buff, you will be hitting the cap pretty hard. Flat MPen is always good too if you combine it with void.
2. Get a RoA in there somewhere. I used to go direct Morellos but she is incredibly squishy and her early game could use the sustain granted by Catalyst. So revised order
Boots + 3 or Mana Crystal + 2
Catalyst -> RoA
Deathcap
Morellos
Void Staff
Moar hats

3. Never ever get Lichbane, its a trap!

[Reynard]

I'd rather swap out the Morellos for Mejais, if anything. The amount of LaserGanking you can do is crazy. Help every gank with a rainbows from the river.

Yeah, Lux is squishy, but if you're getting caught or if you're going anywhere near the actual fight you're doing it badly. And since I've switched back to Mp5/lvl Seals I really don't have any mana troubles unless I'm spamming all the things all the time.

Ring, Boot1, Ring, ONWARDS TO AP.

[Terribad]

I'd rather swap out the Morellos for Mejais, if anything. The amount of LaserGanking you can do is crazy. Help every gank with a rainbows from the river.

Yeah, Lux is squishy, but if you're getting caught or if you're going anywhere near the actual fight you're doing it badly. And since I've switched back to Mp5/lvl Seals I really don't have any mana troubles unless I'm spamming all the things all the time.

Ring, Boot1, Ring, ONWARDS TO AP.

Mmmm ok. The reason I advocate RoA on her is because Lux does not have great lane match ups due to her squishiness, slow burst and no easy escapes outside of summoners. At best, it is a stalemate/farm fest unless your opponent is a bad. So even in lane, she needs that extra survivability (she has one of the lowest base HP values IIRC). Once she burns her flash from an early gank, she's food for 4 mins.She is pretty much the only AP carry I take flash AND ghost for more runaways.

Also DRing start is not very ideal for her. Personally, I feel that only mids with inherent sustain can start DRing (Morg, Fiddle, Swain, Ryze), otherwise harass will just make you B and lose out on XP, despite the extra 100 HP.

But anyway, if it works for you, why not. All I have stated is coming on the back of close to eighty games with her.