My Little Pony XXXIX: There is no Pegasus Mafia!

[SiuiS]

Ah, the classics. When I was a teenager, I detested archaic writing and old books. They were the result, I reasoned, of a time when the number of authors was tiny and the rules of effective storytelling were still being explored. While that perspective still holds sway in my mind, more and more I have come to find that some classics are classics for a reason. I have A Study In Rainbows to thank for this growing fascination. I find myself compelled by the middle path, the blend of old and new, and that interest has woven through all my writing recently.

I'm reading Dracula now. Did you know Dracula actually had a moustache? I've never seen any picture or film of Dracula with a moustache. Funny how that worked out, yes?

The point of this ramble, and what makes it pony related, is that Dracula actually holds a genius format. It switches between letters and diaries - ah, why didn't I think of that! - and pits doomed scientific minds against the horror of the supernatural. I'm collecting notes on Dracula, oh yes, which may see resolution in my next piece. I'm feeling optimistic, creative. I have for days. I've got inspiration in my mind. Like a thunderstorm's brewing, sculpting the conditions for lightning with hands made of wind and rain. There's a stillness, ah! A stillness in the air as mere anarchy begins to structure itself!

As I recall, the movie entitled Bram Stoker's Dracula did indeed include a mostach on Dracula. And that book is entrancing. I bought McBeth and Dracula at the same time. I know I read McBeth, but I can't remember a lick of it, so far has it been overshadowed.

That you went through a phase of stuffed shirts being stuffy is fascinating. I keepforgettin how relatively young you are.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'll agree on Twilight's magic being "inconsistently available". She is fairly conveniently forgetful sometimes, as for all her organizational skills she seems to be fairly scatterbrained when what she needs to do isn't written down in a checklist of some kind. Therefore, her being inconsistent in her magical ability or spells available is at least believable from an in-universe standpoint. Of course, there is the simpler narrative explanation, specifically New Powers As The Plot Demands, which suits her perfectly, but I prefer explaining in-universe things through in-universe logic.

(Looking at metaverses just isn't fun when you remember that they don't really exist by themselves, that everything you see is a product of someone's imagination. Even the tree structure of the meta-multiverse is due to the multitide of physical 'verses and their infinite variance (accompanied by waveform collapse of sufficiently similar timeline segments), not because the characters in the 'verse make decisions of their own.)

And Unicorn TK is the same basic magic ability that Pegasi have, just focused differently. Pegasi use it to propel themselves, Unicorns use it to manipulate objects. In a way, those aren't cantrips so much as at-will spell-like abilities. Earth ponies likely have one of these as well, focused in their hooves or simply distributed through the body.
Overanalysis:

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So, earth ponies are the most mundane, as the "magic nerves", or whatever is responsible for conscious magic usage, are the most spread out in them, making focusing the power difficult. However, this also means that they subconsciously control all of this power at once, it is simply as natural as moving to them.
Pegasi have the magic concentrated in their wings, reducing the level of overall subconscious control over the magic in exchange for more power in the direction of flight and related abilities. They still don't have precise enough conscious control to use spells, but the greater concentration of power allows them to produce more pronounced effects with less effort.
Unicorns have all of their power concentrated in one focus, the horn, which means that they can manipulate all of their power more easily than anyone else, more or less manifesting in subconscious thought "taking shape", as basic telekinesis. The placement of the focus and the way it is (most likely) directly linked to the cerebral cortex (as opposed to wings, which connect through the spinal column), also means that unicorns are the only ones with sufficient conscious control over this power to form spells. The power is probably versatile enough on its own, because the underlying basic principles should be the same across the board, which means that any unicorn can feasibly learn any spell, their cutie mark only determining the spell they have an innate understanding of. Twilight's talent of "magic" thus probably means that she has a (substantially) greater energy potential, more power to throw around, rather than any sort of "hax talent" with spells. She was a bookworm fascinated with magic even before she got her cutie mark, after all.

[Thanqol]

So, earth ponies are the most mundane, as the "magic nerves", or whatever is responsible for conscious magic usage, are the most spread out in them, making focusing the power difficult. However, this also means that they subconsciously control all of this power at once, it is simply as natural as moving to them.

Am I the only one who really dislikes the idea of earth pony magic?

I always have. I think it's the result of people trying to 'balance' earth ponies, unicorns and pegasus ponies in their heads as if they were designing a MMO. It feels apologist, coming up with invisible, intangible, make-believe reasons why one type isn't as 'good' as the others.

"These ponies can fly!" the logic goes, "These ponies can do magic! The earth ponies must have some kind of hidden talent that is just as good, right? It wouldn't be fair otherwise."

I don't think it needs to be fair.

I think there's drama in one-sidedness, in unfairness; and there's strength there, too. I also think that there's only so many hours in a day and mastery demands practise. We've seen ineffective unicorns, unicorns who'd straight-up lose to an athlete like Applejack, magic or no. Who'd you put money on, Applejack or Snails? Pinkie or Lyra?

Even though unicorns have access to magic, every hour spent practising magic is an hour not spent training their bodies, or practising a skill. Having hands doesn't mean you can draw a picture or win a fight.

Unicorns are as caught in their specialities as Earth Ponies and there doesn't need to be a hidden magical talent or affinity living in the hearts of all Earth Ponies to balance them. The lack of magic can be just as important a drive as it's presence. They're good farmers because they've learned how to be good farmers. They're strong and durable because they've spent time running everywhere rather than reading books. A limitation becomes an advantage, and apologising for them saying that their magic is 'subconscious' does a disservice to the hard work and determination that they build up the hard way.

[DigoDragon]

Here is a question for you ponythread. What sort of twist do you hate to see in fanfics or would hate to show up in the show?

Hmm... well in fanfics probably anything murder.
Death I guess is okay, but I find it hard to see such cute ponies go around and "off" each other. *shrug* But it's fanfiction. Mileage varies.

Now it seems that there are plenty of spellbooks around, with all sorts of different magics. I'm wondering, is it possible for a unicorn whose talent is not magic to learn the spells in those books?

My interpretation is that unicorns are like D&D specialist wizards. They can learn lots of different spells, but due to their talents they have an easier times learning spells related to their talents and a harder time learning spells opposing their talents.
How much magic a unicorn can learn would then be dependant on their inner-personal force as Twi somewhat mentioned in "Feeling Pinkie Keen".

Occasionally you'll have ponies like Twilight who turn out to be more like a generalist D&D wizard-- capable of learning any spell from any talent tree.

Am I the only one who really dislikes the idea of earth pony magic?

Well, I don't think of earth ponies having the same kind of "magic" that unicorn ponies do. I see earth ponies as having more of an internal effect like talents or skills. Perhaps in D&D terms it's like unicorns get spells and earth ponies get skill tricks?
Out of the mane 6 cast, AppleJack is the most mundane of the group, but she can keep up with the others most of the time,even when the unicorns are using magic.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Am I the only one who really dislikes the idea of earth pony magic?

I always have. I think it's the result of people trying to 'balance' earth ponies, unicorns and pegasus ponies in their heads as if they were designing a MMO. It feels apologist, coming up with invisible, intangible, make-believe reasons why one type isn't as 'good' as the others.

You're likely not the only one, but insofar as all three races are biologically compatible and (assumably) have evolved from a common ancestor, there is no reason to believe they should not be similar. If two out of three races deriving from a common ancestor are capable of magic, then it's not too much of a stretch to believe that at least on some level, the third is also attuned to it, even if in not in a form that can be controlled. Take Pinkie, for instance. You can write off her cartoon "abilities" as mere animation medium conventions or applied Rule Of Fun, but she does have the Pinkie Sense as well, and to me it's a lot more interesting to have an in-universe explanation relying on a common ground between the three magical pony subraces, than an out-universe one using medium or narrative conventions.

And true, Earth Ponies devote themselves to physical excellence, because that's all they can do. They don't need no fancy magic background to make them special, to make them good at what they do - Charles Atlas Superpowers everywhere, as it were. This still does not preclude a magic background from being there, and it being there helps explain quite a lot of things that cannot be explained otherwise. For instance, it's been fairly well proven that RD isn't that much worse than AJ in a straight-up physical contest, but for some reason RD has trouble stopping a runaway carriage, when AJ does not, even though the resistance should be the same as long as the hooves dig into the ground. Or Big Mac's leisurely hopping along, a house in tow, despite all physics saying this shouldn't work. You can argue medium conventions all you want, but as long as there's an explanation to be found in-universe, I will stay by it.

Also, somebody ought to do something about the forum, really. All these swallowed up posts are getting annoying.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Am I the only one who really dislikes the idea of earth pony magic? [snip]

Earth Ponies don't have... overt (I'm strungling for the right word here, I mean simply that their magic isn't flashy) magic, that much is obvious. But they do clearly have some kind of superpowers - you can't explain Big Mac in any other way. Me, I suspect that earth ponies' magic simply takes the form of extraodinary agility or strength. Edit, no that can't be quite right - Pinkie Sense is obviously a superhuman ability of some sort. This needs more thinking, but it's clear to me that earth ponies do have superpowers. Whether you refer to this fact as "magic" or "Charles Atlas Superpowers" is... pretty much irrelevant. What difference does it make?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Earth Ponies don't have... overt (I'm strungling for the right word here, I mean simply that their magic isn't flashy) magic, that much is obvious. But they do clearly have some kind of superpowers - you can't explain Big Mac in any other way. Me, I suspect that earth ponies' magic simply takes the form of extraodinary agility or strength. Edit, no that can't be quite right - Pinkie Sense is obviously a superhuman ability of some sort. This needs more thinking, but it's clear to me that earth ponies do have superpowers. Whether you refer to this fact as "magic" or "Charles Atlas Superpowers" is... pretty much irrelevant. What difference does it make?

A "Charles Atlas Superpower" is an ability or feat that borders on the supernatural, but obtained purely through hard training and dedication. Batman's combat prowess, for instance. (eh, there's probably better examples)

Magic, on the other hand, is magic. And yes, overt would probably be correct. Earth Pony magic is all innate, unfocused, like a connection to nature. For lack of a better term, consider Earth Pony magic to merely be "a very strong aura". Just like a human's, if you consider the concept of "ki" applicable to reality. Some ponies spend their lives rigorously training their physical bodies, amplifying their flow of ki and gaining near-supernatural strength or agility. Some, like Pinkie Pie, may have suddenly found entirely new ways in which their ki manifests, due to sheer chance or some supernatural effect (jury's out on that one in regards to Pinkie - the Sense is likely not a part of her special talent, and she seemed to be close enough to the Rainboom to trigger some sort of magic feedback effect, but who knows? This is one of those areas where there's woefully little data to go on. She definitely has some form of ESP, and if anything, the way it manifests reinforces the idea that Earth Pony magic is linked with their whole body rather than, for instance, just the brain). Some ponies may never even come to tap into their magic at all, living perfectly ordinary lives as teachers or what have you.

[PrinceAquilaDei]

@Kyouhen

You said what you said very well, so I'll just say I agree.

Also, this isn't really relevant, but I seem to share a birthday with darthbobcat. (March 11)

Happy Birthday!

Same offer as always.

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Unrelated, since tinypic took down one version of Erikun's picture I reuploaded it.

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[Eakin]

Re: Earth Pony magic

Faust addressed this directly a while back

[RdMarquis]

Magic, on the other hand, is magic. And yes, overt would probably be correct. Earth Pony magic is all innate, unfocused, like a connection to nature. For lack of a better term, consider Earth Pony magic to merely be "a very strong aura". Just like a human's, if you consider the concept of "ki" applicable to reality. Some ponies spend their lives rigorously training their physical bodies, amplifying their flow of ki and gaining near-supernatural strength or agility.

Speaking of which, I can't help but compare what Granny Smith was doing in Family Appreciation day to Feng Shui or geomancy. As in, earth ponies don't have explicit magical abilities, but they've discovered ways to nurture and guide the ambient magic of the land in ways that Pegasi and Unicorns have never needed to learn (as far as we know).

Rather than casting spells, they just nudge the magic in the direction they want it to go.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

A "Charles Atlas Superpower" is an ability or feat that borders on the supernatural, but obtained purely through hard training and dedication. Batman's combat prowess, for instance. (eh, there's probably better examples)

Magic, on the other hand, is magic. And yes, overt would probably be correct. [snip]

You don't say. No really, this is something that bugs me. 'Magic' is a word so vague as to be virtually meaningless. 'Vampire' means 'bloodsucker who dislikes the sun'. When you say your novel contains vampires, you have to define what 'vampire' means, specifically for your 'verse. 'Magic' on it's own just means 'superpowers', until explicitly defined in-'verse.

Whether you call earth ponies' powers CAS or just magic doesn't really matter - they obviously have superpowers, and these superpowers are distinct from those that pegasi or unicorns. Call it Ki, call it ESP, call it whatever you want. Until you explicitly define what each of those things are in-universe, there's not really any practical difference between them. Word of God is that Earth Ponies have magic, so that's that.

Now, CAS does have a general definition - it's almost superhuman powers obtained simply by training. But you have to define in-universe the limits of what 'almost superhuman' actually is. In most comic-book 'verses psychic powers are result of a mutation. However, in the City of Heroes 'verse, psychic powers are something any human can develop - it's a matter of innate talent, willpower and training. Psychic powers can be a CAS.

But that's just an aside. As to the topic at hand, I agree with you regarding how earth pony magic* works.

*Might as well call it that.

[Sean Mirrsen]

You don't say. No really, this is something that bugs me. 'Magic' is a word so vague as to be virtually meaningless.

Magic (noun) is magic (adj.). In other words, magic in-universe is what is defined in-universe as magic. Simple as that. It's pointless nomenclature, true, but that was exactly what I meant. In our universe, magic is explicitly that which is impossible to justify using any conventional science. In MLP-verse, "conventional science" includes the study of magic, therefore the term as used in our 'verse is inapplicable, and "magic" is one of the fundamental things native to the world, which are gradually understood and studied. This still leaves "blank areas" which are outside of conventional science, and those could in turn be labelled as "magic", except the term is already taken and the mind becomes confused because there's no real substitute. Since in-universe, "Magic", the noun, is inherently meant as the unicorns' spellcasting abilities and the "ambient magic" in pegasi and earth ponies (and unicorns for that matter too) is never addressed, this "ambient magic" becomes "magic", the adjective, something that exists but isn't researched because of whatever reason. And thus ends my explanation of what was clearly a fluke of the tired mind at the time.

And CAS most usually means physical powers like strength or agility, but I hadn't visited the trope page in a while, and expanding it to cover everything that is normal for the universe in question does make sense. So, let's say that, if you were an average member of your race and were able to rise beyond what could be considered "normal" through intense training alone, you have CAS. If you're a member of a race where everyone has innate psychic ability to some degree, and you were able to train it to the point where you can forcefully project tangible illusions into others' brains, you may well have CAS.

[Aotrs Commander]

I remind everypony that Applejack, three-foot-nothing Applejack (28 inches in we recall Bobcat's calulations from way back), can kick a tree so hard that the apples fall off.

When you next encounter a small tree, give it a kick, and see how hard it is. And then bear in mind unless Applejack is indeed made of Dark Matter (which begs the question of how she can walk in first story buildings made of wood), Applejack is likely to weigh about about half your weight.

That is magically-enhanced strength, no two ways about it. Just because Earth pony magic isn't active, but rather passive and subconcious (because I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to applebucking than just kicking the tree), doesn't mean they don't have it.

Ponies have superpowers.

Superpowers.

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Incidently, the reason I've been more quiet than usual is with the failure of Secret Project for the immediate future, I'm having to move to plan B, which is to do the Strayvian ground force for 144. (them rather than the Jalyrekions for four reasons: a) already opponents of the existant ESU/Soviets; b) high-tech and so low-bit count and so less models needed; c) use modular technology, so the same hull can be even more easily adpated for variants and d) already had some ideas for them anyway.)

I will no doubt show you at some point.



Also, having recently got a couple of Professor Branestawm books, adding to my enormous collection of that one I've had since school, it occurred to me the possibility that that would lend itself well to adaption to pony, with Twilight as the Professor, Rainbow as Colonel Dedshott and Spike as Mrs Flittersnoop, but then I realised that probably nopony what have the faintest idea of what I'm talking about, and wouldn't get the joke about the long run-on sentences, because everypony is probably mostly too young or not British enough, which is a shame because it would have hilarious, but considering I probably couldn't emulate Norman Hunter's writing style quite as well as I should, it's probably is a good thing for all concerned, anyway.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Magic (noun) is magic (adj.). In other words, magic in-universe is what is defined in-universe as magic. [snip]

So we are in perfect agreement. And I was quite able to follow your explanation, if it that's any help.

Earlier I said that it didn't matter whether we called what earth ponies do CAS or magic, but I wasn't aware of Faust having said it is magic. Since she called it magic, magic is what it is.

[OracleofWuffing]

As I recall, the movie entitled Bram Stoker's Dracula did indeed include a mostach on Dracula. And that book is entrancing. I bought McBe-.

*Slams hands over ears*

As one who has seen the curse in action, I kindly request- for your own safety- that you exit the building, turn around three times, and recite a line from a different story by the same author.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I remind everypony that Applejack, three-foot-nothing Applejack (28 inches in we recall Bobcat's calulatiosn fro wat back), can kick a tree so hard that the apples fall off.

When you next encounter a small tree, give it a kick, and see how hard it is. And then bear in mind unless Applejack is indeed made of Dark Matter (which begs the question of how she can walk in first story buildings made of wood), Applejack is likely to weigh about about half your weight.

That is magically-enhanced strength, no two ways about it. Just because Earth pony magic isn't active, but rather passive and subconcious (because I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to applebucking than just kicking the tree), doesn't mean they don't have it.

Ponies have superpowers.

Superpowers.

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There's a trope for that.
Or wait, was it the other one? Gotta recheck.

...is it bad that I can type in links to TVTropes pages from memory?

edit: yep, definitely the other one, in this case there aren't any actual spells, just magic invoked by motion.

[Lix Lorn]

What's the time?

What's the time?

It's adventure cuddle time.

(Thanqolsnuggles)
^_^

*Slams hands over ears*

As one who has seen the curse in action, I kindly request- for your own safety- that you exit the building, turn around three times, and recite a line from a different story by the same author.

It only applies if someone currently acting in the play says it. I can say Macbeth as much as I like in perfect safety.

[erikun]

Well I had a fun birthday if a little tiring.

It's a bit late, but happy birthday! Have some slightly aged cake.

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Also, this isn't really relevant, but I seem to share a birthday with darthbobcat. (March 11)

Well since I'm late of the other one, I might as well be early for this one.
Happy Double Birthday!

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It is surprising hard to find good art of these two.

Unrelated, since tinypic took down one version of Erikun's picture I reuploaded it.

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Woohoo, thanks! That looks really nice.
I was going to ask who this was supposed to be, but I woke up a bit since then. Just goes to show that I shouldn't post in the morning anyways.

Would it be alright if I used this as an avatar for a bit? It does look very good.

[PhantomFox]

New Extended Hurricane Fluttershy synopsis

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“Fluttershy struggles to overcome her fear of public humiliation so she can help Rainbow Dash and the other pegasi create a tornado powerful enough to lift the water required for rainy season in the cloud-producing city of Cloudsdale."

I must say that this is suitably awesome.

[Gamerlord]

New Extended Hurricane Fluttershy synopsis

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“Fluttershy struggles to overcome her fear of public humiliation so she can help Rainbow Dash and the other pegasi create a tornado powerful enough to lift the water required for rainy season in the cloud-producing city of Cloudsdale."

I must say that this is suitably awesome.

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Why do I have the feeling those Cloudsdale bullies are going to return?

[Aotrs Commander]

*Slams hands over ears*

As one who has seen the curse in action, I kindly request- for your own safety- that you exit the building, turn around three times, and recite a line from a different story by the same author.

So you're saying you don't want anypony to say Macbeth?



Sorry, Evil.

Actually, I'm not sorry at all...

[OracleofWuffing]

I haven't yet seen her introductory episode, and I'm on my 3DS so her wiki page won't load for me, but where does Zecora fit in with the Earth Pony Magic thing? Are zebras a kind of pony, or is she like an exception because of where she lives, or am I just confuzzling things?

It only applies if someone currently acting in the play says it.

Is not all the world a stage? Are not all the men and women merely actors?

[PrinceAquilaDei]

Woohoo, thanks! That looks really nice.
I was going to ask who this was supposed to be, but I woke up a bit since then. Just goes to show that I shouldn't post in the morning anyways.

Would it be alright if I used this as an avatar for a bit? It does look very good.

Nothing would make me happier. But you might want someone more savvy to resize it for you.

[erikun]

I haven't yet seen her introductory episode, and I'm on my 3DS so her wiki page won't load for me, but where does Zecora fit in with the Earth Pony Magic thing? Are zebras a kind of pony, or is she like an exception because of where she lives, or am I just confuzzling things?

Twilight points out that zebras are not ponies, although I don't know if that discludes them from some sort of magic. You could argue she's good at alchemy, but we've seen more potion-making from Applebloom than we've seen from Zecora. Either potions is Applebloom's real talent (much as talking to animals is Fluttershy's, despite it being an "earth pony thing") or anyone could make potions without too much trouble.

[Edit]

Nothing would make me happier. But you might want someone more savvy to resize it for you.

Thanks! Resizing isn't a problem, although sadly I had to crop it a bit for it to look good as an avatar. Thank you, though, as this should be fun to use for awhile.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I haven't yet seen her introductory episode, and I'm on my 3DS so her wiki page won't load for me, but where does Zecora fit in with the Earth Pony Magic thing? Are zebras a kind of pony, or is she like an exception because of where she lives, or am I just confuzzling things?

Zecora is supposed to be a stranger to these lands, and on the scale of pony magic it is uncertain where she stands, but of what was shown to us of her abilities on-screen, wiccan crafts like alchemy, and illusions are her forte, it would seem. In other words, Zecora's tribe most likely does have the "magic" vibe, but it goes even deeper than that of Earth-ponykind, having knowledge of the nature rather than strength or body or mind.

Rhymes aside, zebras are probably still attuned to magic in some way, but I haven't given enough thought to it yet to really tell if it's closer to that of Earth ponies or, Unicorns, say. Unicorns do have the horns, but in order use magic beyond the basic "telekinetic handling", they still need to either read books or have their talent provide the understanding. Zebra magic could work in a similar fashion, and perhaps Zecora's "cutie mark" simply reflects her alchemical passion, and oh god stop these rhymes, why am I speaking in rhymes?!?!

*runs off*

[Lix Lorn]

Is not all the world a stage? Are not all the men and women merely actors?

I said in THE play, meaning Macbeth.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

It only applies if someone currently acting in the play says it. I can say Macbeth as much as I like in perfect safety.

Unless you say it three times, in which case an old scottish king appears before you, gibbers some nonsense about bloody daggers and leaves.

[erikun]

Unless you say it three times, in which case an old scottish king appears before you, gibbers some nonsense about bloody daggers and leaves.

So THAT'S what happened! And here, I thought I just had another crazy uncle I didn't know about.

[MCerberus]

So crazy thought for the day:

Mass Effect 3 Pony DLC. You'd get a portable OFC weapon and a new squad member! But who?

[Lix Lorn]

So crazy thought for the day:

Mass Effect 3 Pony DLC. You'd get a portable OFC weapon and a new squad member! But who?

Colonel Derpy.