Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

[AtlanteanTroll]

Kakashi, a minor character

What are you smoking and can I have some?

[Drolyt]

What are you smoking and can I have some?

Eh, that statement is somewhat understandable, since Kakashi is Naruto-speak for Worf (Wolverine is also an acceptable translation).

[Traab]

Some of my favorite quirks about Orochimaru... The man shouted at his dying enemy: "MY ARMS!!! GIVE ME BACK MY ARMS!!! AND THEN DIE!!"
Also.... he had four of his elite-mooks bring Sasuke to him in a wooden barrel. A wooden barrel. And to top it off, they tell him it'll give him tremendous power. Man... Sasuke wasn't even the least bit suspicious. He just shrugs a little "you guys seem legit" and gets in the bucket.

Heh, I liked him because he was so easy to mock in fanfiction. All it took was a SLIGHT exaggeration to turn him into a homosexual pedophile. Or even no exaggeration at all to just have naruto or someone make that claim to tick him off. "I mean really! You run around the forest giving hickeys to 12 year old boys, trying to get them to run away with you, and your admitted greatest desire is to possess his body! What else are we SUPPOSED to think about you?"

He was creepy, sneaky, powerful, and had an at least somewhat interesting personal goal. Honestly? I thought his obsession with the sharingan probably slowed him down in his quest more than anything else. I mean, he is a fricking sanin, how hard would it be to physically memorize the handsigns to a new jutsu and use it properly? How many months or years did he waste preparing for the chance to take over sasuke so he could have three glorious years of lazy jutsu copying? He created a damn hidden village, spent years setting up plots and elaborate schemes, and all this time he could have spent capturing any ninja he heard had a jutsu he didnt know yet and forcing them to give up the handsigns. Once again, he is a freaking sanin. Noone short of the various kages or jinchuriki should have been able to escape him. Just keep body jumping as you go and eventually you would know "all" jutsu that exist.

[lord_khaine]

Actualy, it kinda made sense for him to want the Sharingan after Itachi demonstrated just how insanely broken it were to him.

[Giegue]

I had a theory regarding Oro's obsession with the sharingan, actually, focused around the scroll Suigetsu found. My theory was that, since Oro wanted to learn EVERY jutsu, that he was after not just the sharingan, but the Rinne'gan. I mean, I highly doubt Oro had every elemental affinity, and if he wanted to learn ALL jutsus he would need to be able to use every elemental affinity and the only way we know of to do that is the Rinne'gan. Since we have seen the Rinne'gan was in fact an evolution of the Sharingan, possibly requiring Senju DNA, it would make sense that Oro was so sharingan obsessed because he NEEDED the sharingan, to become the rinne'gan, in order to actually be able to learn every jutsu. This would also explain why Oro was experimenting with Hashirama's DNA if the sharingan-> rinne'gan evolution requires senju DNA. Also, my theory was that the scroll Suigetsu found has the instructions for turning the sharingan into the rinne'gan.

This, however, is mostly just logic-based speculation on my part, so take it at face value because it's probably not true.

[Prime32]

I had a theory regarding Oro's obsession with the sharingan, actually, focused around the scroll Suigetsu found. My theory was that, since Oro wanted to learn EVERY jutsu, that he was after not just the sharingan, but the Rinne'gan.

Didn't Kabuto say something about this?

[Traab]

Actualy, it kinda made sense for him to want the Sharingan after Itachi demonstrated just how insanely broken it were to him.

True, but didnt he constantly mention that he wanted the sharingan specifically to copy every jutsu in the world?

[Lord Raziere]

Heh, I liked him because he was so easy to mock in fanfiction. All it took was a SLIGHT exaggeration to turn him into a homosexual pedophile. Or even no exaggeration at all to just have naruto or someone make that claim to tick him off. "I mean really! You run around the forest giving hickeys to 12 year old boys, trying to get them to run away with you, and your admitted greatest desire is to possess his body! What else are we SUPPOSED to think about you?"

He was creepy, sneaky, powerful, and had an at least somewhat interesting personal goal. Honestly? I thought his obsession with the sharingan probably slowed him down in his quest more than anything else. I mean, he is a fricking sanin, how hard would it be to physically memorize the handsigns to a new jutsu and use it properly? How many months or years did he waste preparing for the chance to take over sasuke so he could have three glorious years of lazy jutsu copying? He created a damn hidden village, spent years setting up plots and elaborate schemes, and all this time he could have spent capturing any ninja he heard had a jutsu he didnt know yet and forcing them to give up the handsigns. Once again, he is a freaking sanin. Noone short of the various kages or jinchuriki should have been able to escape him. Just keep body jumping as you go and eventually you would know "all" jutsu that exist.

perhaps he is an optimizer who wanted to take advantage of those three years in some way. he is a genius, he could've figured out a way to preserve the eyes or something, or get all jutsu NOW if only he had the Sharingan.

The Sharingan is hax dude. I wouldn't be surprised if Orochimaru figured out some way to make it even more hax than it already is and allow one to copy all jutsu in the world at once or something in some twisted doomsday villain scheme.

I mean really, Orochimaru just seems exactly the kind of hammy villain to design some big device that magnifies the Sharingan to infinite vision across all space and time, get inside it then proclaim
"As soon as my Infinite Oracular Sharingan Machine finishes charging up, my vision will be expanded across ALL SPACE AND TIME! I WILL SEE ALL JUTSU THAT EVER EXISTED AND EVER WILL! EVERY JUTSU! EVER! I WILL BECOME GREATER THAN EVEN THE GOD OF SHINOBI! I WILL BE ALL-POWERFUL! I WILL KNOW ALL JUTSU, IN THE WOOOORRRRRRLLLLD!!!"

[Drolyt]

I always assumed that Orochimaru was lying when he said he wanted the Sharingan to learn every jutsu in the world, or at least bending the truth. Given how much he and Kabuto knew about Tobi, Madara, Akatsuki, and pretty much everything else, he probably wanted Sasuke's body so that he could defeat Itachi, take his eyes, gain the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, and then the Rinnegan. To unlock the Mangekyo Sharingan in the first place he probably meant to kill Jiraiya, the closest thing to a friend he's ever had.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I had a theory regarding Oro's obsession with the sharingan, actually, focused around the scroll Suigetsu found. My theory was that, since Oro wanted to learn EVERY jutsu, that he was after not just the sharingan, but the Rinne'gan. I mean, I highly doubt Oro had every elemental affinity, and if he wanted to learn ALL jutsus he would need to be able to use every elemental affinity and the only way we know of to do that is the Rinne'gan. Since we have seen the Rinne'gan was in fact an evolution of the Sharingan, possibly requiring Senju DNA, it would make sense that Oro was so sharingan obsessed because he NEEDED the sharingan, to become the rinne'gan, in order to actually be able to learn every jutsu. This would also explain why Oro was experimenting with Hashirama's DNA if the sharingan-> rinne'gan evolution requires senju DNA. Also, my theory was that the scroll Suigetsu found has the instructions for turning the sharingan into the rinne'gan.

This, however, is mostly just logic-based speculation on my part, so take it at face value because it's probably not true.

I think you have something there, presumably even with Sharingan you would eventually run into elemental limitations. (Which almost retroactively explains why its mega-manning hasn't come up since forever)

Raises the question of why he was after Itachi/Sasuke and not Pain though. I mean presumably he knew him by Akatuski hologram where it was visible. Then again maybe he considered the Rinne'gan unassailable and so decided to go down a rung, then failing that with Itachi sought Sasuke.

Either way is it just me or is Kishimoto totally regretting killing off Orochimaru right now or what? Ol snake is dangerously close to looking like the weakest Sanin right now.

[Madara]

I'm thinking that Oro wasn't good enough for our evil organization.

[Traab]

I think you have something there, presumably even with Sharingan you would eventually run into elemental limitations. (Which almost retroactively explains why its mega-manning hasn't come up since forever)

Raises the question of why he was after Itachi/Sasuke and not Pain though. I mean presumably he knew him by Akatuski hologram where it was visible. Then again maybe he considered the Rinne'gan unassailable and so decided to go down a rung, then failing that with Itachi sought Sasuke.

Either way is it just me or is Kishimoto totally regretting killing off Orochimaru right now or what? Ol snake is dangerously close to looking like the weakest Sanin right now.

Meh, kakashi had no problem using water, fire, lightning, earth, and ice jutsus all pre shippuden. So I think orochimaru would have at least been able to copy the jutsus, even if he hadnt been able to use them directly, like Mei and her lava release techniques, he might have had to be next to an erupting volcano to use them, but he could have. As for Pein, he might have tried to go after pein next if he had beaten itachi. You have to level up before you fight the final boss after all, and as far as he knew, pein was the boss. Was "tobi" even around when orochimaru was a member?

[Madara]

Was "tobi" even around when orochimaru was a member?

He was, but he wasn't in the organization. He was around doing his own work and such.

[Traab]

He was, but he wasn't in the organization. He was around doing his own work and such.

Thats what I meant, he wasnt a part of akatsuki, or even on orchimarus radar at the time of the rochi/tachi fight. I think he was busy controlling/being the mizukage at the time or something.

[darksolitaire]

Meh, kakashi had no problem using water, fire, lightning, earth, and ice jutsus all pre shippuden.

He has natural affinity for electricity, and can also use earth and water. He only uses Fire in anime, not manga. This brings his elements total to three, same as Mei.

[Drolyt]

Thats what I meant, he wasnt a part of akatsuki, or even on orchimarus radar at the time of the rochi/tachi fight. I think he was busy controlling/being the mizukage at the time or something.

Apparently Oro knew all about Tobi though. He might not have figured that out until after his defection however, so you might be right.

[Xondoure]

RE: elemental jutsus. I thought it was pretty clear that jutsus being restricted based on elemental affinity outside of rare bloodlines (ice, wood, etc) was a total retcon. No?

[Soras Teva Gee]

RE: elemental jutsus. I thought it was pretty clear that jutsus being restricted based on elemental affinity outside of rare bloodlines (ice, wood, etc) was a total retcon. No?

Totally so but its not nessecarily inconsistent though either.

I also thinked it played the 'Naruto is an idiot' card past its limits there introducing them too. Really that late in the game he still doesn't know anything, yeesh. Given that all you need is a piece of freaking paper you'd think elemental affinity would be something every ninja would learn right off.

[Traab]

He has natural affinity for electricity, and can also use earth and water. He only uses Fire in anime, not manga. This brings his elements total to three, same as Mei.

Yeah, and Mei had two bloodlines related to elemental jutsus to make that happen.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah, and Mei had two bloodlines related to elemental jutsus to make that happen.

Kakashi hasn't shown any ability to combine them however which is what you consistently need something unusual for. If I recall the exposition correctly while everyone has a primary affinity, you can use maybe a few more... just not all of them.

For all we might call it an informed ability Kakashi is supposed to be an exceptional ninja so have three categories of techniques isn't that big a deal.

[Traab]

Kakashi hasn't shown any ability to combine them however which is what you consistently need something unusual for. If I recall the exposition correctly while everyone has a primary affinity, you can use maybe a few more... just not all of them.

For all we might call it an informed ability Kakashi is supposed to be an exceptional ninja so have three categories of techniques isn't that big a deal.

He used ice jutsu in the land of snow. He couldnt create the ice, but he could manipulate what was there. That seems to imply that you need a bloodline to directly create the element, but that its possible to manipulate the element if its already there. So theoretically, you could use mei's lava release techniques by standing next to an active volcano.

[Socratov]

Totally so but its not nessecarily inconsistent though either.

I also thinked it played the 'Naruto is an idiot' card past its limits there introducing them too. Really that late in the game he still doesn't know anything, yeesh. Given that all you need is a piece of freaking paper you'd think elemental affinity would be something every ninja would learn right off.

ehm... no, It is known that using elements is not that easy and consumes a lot of chakra. Sasuke getting taught about fire technigues is because he was a child prodigy, with charingan hax and it was clear he had great control over his chakra. Naruto learned it later, and quickly blew up the wind technigues poring his unusual haxed max chakra in it. It is acutally typically shonen: the main protagonist has way too much gasoline in it's allready freaking large tank, but consumes at least 5 times as much as the next average joe in terms of efficiëncy. the redeeming feature for this is stamina and the ability to go rocket tag...

[Soras Teva Gee]

He used ice jutsu in the land of snow. He couldnt create the ice, but he could manipulate what was there. That seems to imply that you need a bloodline to directly create the element, but that its possible to manipulate the element if its already there. So theoretically, you could use mei's lava release techniques by standing next to an active volcano.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that this is an anime series with movies and not a manga...

[VanBuren]

He used ice jutsu in the land of snow. He couldnt create the ice, but he could manipulate what was there. That seems to imply that you need a bloodline to directly create the element, but that its possible to manipulate the element if its already there. So theoretically, you could use mei's lava release techniques by standing next to an active volcano.

Pretty sure the movies are about as canon as the fillers.

[Drolyt]

RE: elemental jutsus. I thought it was pretty clear that jutsus being restricted based on elemental affinity outside of rare bloodlines (ice, wood, etc) was a total retcon. No?

I was under the impression that the element restriction was just a practical one. You have one element you have an affinity for, and learning that one is hard enough. You can learn others, but it is very difficult. At least as far as I understand there is nothing physically preventing a Ninja from learning all 5 elements, but it would take a huge amount of time for very little gain; even a single element offers extraordinary versatility, no one really needs more than 2 or 3, especially when there are a lot of effective techniques that don't use any element. I suppose it might be useful for someone with the Sharingan, because they don't have to worry about the specifics of different Jutsus once they've mastered the basics. Also, one of the Rinnegan's powers is apparently to give you an affinity for every element, or maybe it just gives instant mastery, I'm not clear on that. Besides Pain and the Sage of the Six Paths I think that Sarutobi (aka the Third Hokage) and Orochimaru must have been able to use all 5 elements, otherwise Orochimaru's dream of learning every jutsu was pointless and they were lying when they said that Sarutobi knew every jutsu in Konoha.

[Douglas]

I think everyone is technically able to use all 5 basic elements, affinity for an element just makes it easier - and the high end really powerful techniques are so difficult that the affinity difficulty reduction is almost required to bring it into the achievable range.

[Kato]

I think everyone is technically able to use all 5 basic elements, affinity for an element just makes it easier - and the high end really powerful techniques are so difficult that the affinity difficulty reduction is almost required to bring it into the achievable range.

This is probably the best explanation for most stuff we have seen so far... I won't go through the whole manga/anime again to check it but I don't think especially pre-shipuuden they stuck to the elemental rules...

Also, I hate it when we have to accept different continuities for manga/anime/movies....

[Sotharsyl]

RE: elemental jutsus. I thought it was pretty clear that jutsus being restricted based on elemental affinity outside of rare bloodlines (ice, wood, etc) was a total retcon. No?

I was under the impression, and I seem to be the only one but whatever that elemental ninjutsu works like this,translated into gamming terms:

Jutsus come with levels: E,D,C,B,A,S.

Anyone can pay the xp and buy E and D levels of any element.

To get further you have to have the "[Element] Mastery" to buy the C,B,A,S.

Normal ninja at character creation choose a element as their natural afinnity, let's say Shino chose Earth he would then get to buy "Earth Mastery" for 50 xp then time passes and he's almost at the level where he'l be made a jounin and he wants to diversify into Water he can buy "Water Mastery" for 350 xp even more time passes and he wants to learn "Fire Mastery" but that's 2500 xp and he says screw that I'm going to buy 5 more A level bug jutsus for that xp because I already have the "Bug User" feat from chargen.

Now for Sasuke's player among the 250 pg of Uchiha rules there is "All Uchiha have the "Fire Mastery" feat for free this does not count towards your free element at birth." so he picks lightning, or in more mithological terms void or sky, and when the time comes that Kakashi wants to teach him Chidori Sasuke suck it up and pays 50 xp for "Lighting Mastery" then buys Chidori.

I think you have something there, presumably even with Sharingan you would eventually run into elemental limitations. (Which almost retroactively explains why its mega-manning hasn't come up since forever)

Raises the question of why he was after Itachi/Sasuke and not Pain though. I mean presumably he knew him by Akatuski hologram where it was visible. Then again maybe he considered the Rinne'gan unassailable and so decided to go down a rung, then failing that with Itachi sought Sasuke.

Either way is it just me or is Kishimoto totally regretting killing off Orochimaru right now or what? Ol snake is dangerously close to looking like the weakest Sanin right now.

I allways went with the ideea that the Sannin were rougly balanced against each other so even when Jiraya was busting out Sage Mode I was sure that Tsundade and Oro had things on that level but didn"t use them yet, Kishi's really consistent with sticking to themes so I wasn't worried he would go and declare X Sannin is way stronger then the rest.

As for the more feat based fans for the longest time Tsunade was the one who looked the weakest yes massive melee damage and healing are good, but she is kind of a one trick pony being susceptable to battlefiled control and speed blitzes.


About Oro I think after his death he got alot more respect, everybody who is anybody, Danzo,Kabuto,Madara,Sasuke worked with Oro or got powers from him plus at least the art of him has been more badass that panel of him in this chap for example with the cloud effect in the background.

[Socratov]

well to futher put it into gameterms the sannin can be divided into 3 roles: the medic/melee => Tsunade, the DPS/tank => Jiraya and the support/battlefield controller => Orochimaru, wich makes for quite a good team.

[Traab]

I allways went with the ideea that the Sannin were rougly balanced against each other so even when Jiraya was busting out Sage Mode I was sure that Tsundade and Oro had things on that level but didn"t use them yet, Kishi's really consistent with sticking to themes so I wasn't worried he would go and declare X Sannin is way stronger then the rest.

Tsunade really was the weakest fighter of the group. Seriously, ruin her perfect chakra control, not even totally, just enough to make it less than perfect, and suddenly she cant punch people across football fields and stab giant snakes in the face with building sized tantos. She really has little other than standard medic battle techniques aside from monster strength, and even then, messing with her control somehow would likely ruin that as well. Drug her like she did to jiraya at the battle where she agreed to become hokage.

Anyways, on the other side you have orochimaru who has nasty ninjutsu, effective taijutsu, and skilled in kenjutsu. He can fight without his fricking ARMS man. You have to do an awful lot to totally cripple his combat effectiveness. Jiraya is basically the same. He has summons with a wide variety of fighting styles, taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ill include senjutsu in there just because.

None of his techniques barring rasengan and perhaps sage mode really require precise chakra control, so if the same technique was used on all three to damage their chakra control, tsunade would be a freaking civilian, but orochimaru and jiraya would be annoyed but still probably 75% combat effective or higher depending on the amount of damage to their control they took. Their jutsus would take a hit, but their hand to hand combat would still be effective, and im sure they could work around the bad chakra control well enough in a pinch.