LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is

[Astrella]

Someday I hope to feel that peacefulness... :hopelessromantic:

>.>
<.<
*huggles*

So we walked home today... What a great day.

This is turning out to be the best thing that's happened to me in a long time.

Yay.

I really hate how sucky my internet access is right now. It's even more frustrating that it could easily be fixed if my landlord would even acknowledge that I exist. He claimed (on a rare occasion where he actually *GASP called me back!) that the internet provider fixed it a few weeks ago, but nothing changed after that. I'm paying for this free internet, conflabbit!

And to top it off, I'm having a crisis.

Spoiler

Show

Due to getting an incredible job that I'm not passing up, I'll be moving in May to someplace significantly far away; so far that it won't be just a simple matter to hop in the car and drive back home if I miss everyone. This means that I'll be moving away from everyone in my current city that I've gotten to know and love, including my best friends, immediate family, and other kith and kin who aren't jerks. All the wonderful and supportive people in my life that I've met face-to-face? They'll be hours and hours away.

Also, because of this move, I broke up with my boyfriend. He couldn't move there with me, and neither one of us is too keen on the idea of a long-distance relationship. It seemed like the breakup was amicable, but now he seems to be avoiding me - probably because the breakup is bothering him more than he lets on. Given that he was one of few people who understood my quirks even before we started dating, the idea of losing him as a friend bothers me greatly. I've weighed the pros and cons of getting back together with him, but I'm beginning to think it's out of my control anyway.

I feel like I should be able to adapt to this situation easier, but this is pretty much going to be the biggest change of my adult life. I may be moving to a city I've always thought was awesome, but it's not the city where I grew up, went to school, had meaningful experiences, etc. I'm going to be alone and single in the big, cold city where I won't know anyone at first, and given my habit of not really warming up to people that well, I probably won't feel comfortable around anybody I meet for quite some time. I feel like I should expect the worse, emotion-wise. Not pretty. I also have a really tough time keeping in touch with people I already know once they've moved away, so there's that hurdle to deal with too.

*sigh*

Spoilered just cuz I wrote much more than I thought I would. I need a hug.

*hugs*
I'm sure you'll meet lotsa wonderful new people. For staying in contact, maybe a regular skype call for example? At least for me scheduling things makes it far easier to keep up with them.

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Wore my new shirt for the first time last night. :3
Skirt hasn't arrived yet though. >.>

[Asta Kask]

What it means to be an ally.

Very interesting. I'll have to think upon this.

[The Succubus]

Hmmmm.

It really seems like that post is over-complicating it, at least as far as I'm concerned. I just like the people in this thread and I like their idea that love should be a truly universal quality, regardless of gender/sex or anything else.

That's it.

I don't know whether such sentiments are enough to get me formally qualified as an ally, or anything like that.

I just like hanging around here. *shrugs & hugs*

[Castaras]

RE: My allyness.

I like people in general. People are people are people. Everyone should be equal.

I don't understand people in general. I listen to everyone and like learning about how people think and such.

Therefore, I pop my nose in, listen, and do my bit in sharing important points when it comes to fight for justice.

Yeah...I have a very strong sense of justice and vengeance too. So that comes in as well - it's not right to discriminate, so I fight to stop it.

[Viera Champion]

What it means to be an ally.

Very interesting. I'll have to think upon this.

Is it safe for me to assume that the Anders who asked the question was you?

If everyone but me already knows that, I'll go slink back into a corner.

[Mono Vertigo]

Interesting post, yes.

Complicating the issue? I don't know. It's definitely something I need to think about more. There are times I feel I should not be considered part of the LGBT+ community, because the only thing that separates me form heterosexuality is my skewed libido.

(When I think about it," community" is a strange word to use here. Gays are not lesbians are not bisexuals are not transsexuals are not etc. There's no real subculture: you could be homosexual/transgender/bi/other, and be technically part of the "community", without ever coming in contact with another member or learning about their existence. The sexuality and identity of everyone is unique and can't neatly fit in a box. The only thing all members have in common is that they aren't both cisgender and straight, and our personal characteristics rarely match our neighbour's (although I'm also sure there also are variable brands of cisgender-ness or heterosexuality). Hell, as we know, "we" don't even all have the same goals, and sometimes actively fight against each other. Plus, like every other community, we're full of morons and jackasses, but it's true for all human groups.
... I'm not the right person for a debate on communities, anyway. I don't like being grouped with people who share one small characteristic of mine just because we share it, and being expected to get along with everyone. I'm not a very social or extroverted person, and my standards for deciding whether I should integrate a group are extremely obscure.)

Should that guideline apply only to allies (cis straight people)? Are members of the community free to decide where are the limits, even if they are not willing to respect the rights of the others?


@Lil Shiro: I'm pretty sure Asta Kask is Anders, yes, but it wouldn't be surprising for me to be wrong or mixing up names again.

[Asta Kask]

Yep, that's me.

[Lea Plath]

I'm reading that and I wonder if I'm guilty of any of those things.

And Shrio, that poem idea is really cute. Best of luck with writing it!

[golentan]

What it means to be an ally.

Very interesting. I'll have to think upon this.

I don't think that's necessarily fair. I'd embrace as an ally anyone who wasn't homophobic and factored in lgbt welfare in their voting habits. Not everyone has to be active to be an ally, it's the quiet support, acceptance, and integration that I really see as the goal.

Also, calling out "Die Cis Scum" is something I see as almost a duty. I don't know how it started, but every time I've seen it brought up it's confrontational to the point of driving away potential supporters and completely unhelpful to the dialogue. So .

[Qaera]

I don't think that's necessarily fair. I'd embrace as an ally anyone who wasn't homophobic and factored in lgbt welfare in their voting habits. Not everyone has to be active to be an ally, it's the quiet support, acceptance, and integration that I really see as the goal.

Also, calling out "Die Cis Scum" is something I see as almost a duty. I don't know how it started, but every time I've seen it brought up it's confrontational to the point of driving away potential supporters and completely unhelpful to the dialogue. So .

The people that it's targeted for won't understand, and the cis allies who do understand it are uncomfortable with it and don't want to be associated with supposedly violent trans*. So it's really dumb. #transagainstdiecisscum

~ ♅

[Mono Vertigo]

An article on girls being made to live as boys until majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15262680

[Coidzor]

What it means to be an ally.

Very interesting. I'll have to think upon this.

Right, because calling someone on saying something for it being stupid and pigheaded is "distracting" but the stupid and pigheaded and ultimately pointlessly provocative statement, that's meaningful dialogue.

What a load of hooey. Oh, you're allowed to be uncomfortable, but don't you dare open your mouth or you're a horrible person who is betraying trans* individuals and the movement in general.

[Astrella]

An article on girls being made to live as boys until majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15262680

That was an interesting read. I think it really speaks of how problematic the way women are seen and treated there. :/

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Not going to get into the Die Cis Scum argument; I've spent far too much time arguing about it lately.

[Coidzor]

Not going to get into the Die Cis Scum argument; I've spent far too much time arguing about it lately.

I ain't even getting into that directly. I'm just saying that the article that Asta Kask linked to which he thought was interesting appears to me to be an argument saying to sit down and shut up or just leave and stop supporting the movement in general if you think something stupid or wrong is being done because actually raising your voice in protest of what an actual member of the group is no-bad-wrong betrayal.

Now I admit, after reading through the article several times, this might be an unintended consequence of my understanding of what being a conscientious objector means and the general usage and connotations of using it in writing and general parlance, but even taking that into account, it still seems far too close to coming out and saying it outright for me to feel comfortable with it.

[Mono Vertigo]

That was an interesting read. I think it really speaks of how problematic the way women are seen and treated there. :/

Glad it interested you!
The woman who threatened to beat her husband severely and daily if she was forced to marry shocks and saddens me. I have no doubt she would do exactly what she said, even if her husband was as forced into the union as she was and respected her. I'm not blaming her for thinking that, but it still wouldn't justify the potential violence, and her threat sounds very credible. I really hope she will be free to choose her husband or stay celibate, and gain some peace of mind.
I didn't want to talk about "die cis scum" again, but I feel forced to see a parallel here... no, there is no instutionalized physical bullying of men, but men could very well suffer from misdirected hate and resent.

[Asta Kask]

I ain't even getting into that directly. I'm just saying that the article that Asta Kask linked to which he thought was interesting appears to me to be an argument saying to sit down and shut up or just leave and stop supporting the movement in general if you think something stupid or wrong is being done because actually raising your voice in protest of what an actual member of the group is no-bad-wrong betrayal.

Now I admit, after reading through the article several times, this might be an unintended consequence of my understanding of what being a conscientious objector means and the general usage and connotations of using it in writing and general parlance, but even taking that into account, it still seems far too close to coming out and saying it outright for me to feel comfortable with it.

Look at the comments. She says specifically that allies have the right to complain, it's just that they can't take for granted that the movement will go their way.

[pffh]

Well to me at least that article reads as if there is only one way to show support and if you do it any other way your support is not welcome.

[Lyesmith]

What it means to be an ally.

Very interesting. I'll have to think upon this.

Vile article. Vile. Seriously, what?

Well to me at least that article reads as if there is only one way to show support and if you do it any other way your support is not welcome.

Yes! That is exactly it. Plus there's this whole air of snooty superiority about it that makes my skin crawl.

[Astrella]

Glad it interested you!
The woman who threatened to beat her husband severely and daily if she was forced to marry shocks and saddens me. I have no doubt she would do exactly what she said, even if her husband was as forced into the union as she was and respected her. I'm not blaming her for thinking that, but it still wouldn't justify the potential violence, and her threat sounds very credible. I really hope she will be free to choose her husband or stay celibate, and gain some peace of mind.
I didn't want to talk about "die cis scum" again, but I feel forced to see a parallel here... no, there is no instutionalized physical bullying of men, but men could very well suffer from misdirected hate and resent.

Hm hm, very much. :s

Well to me at least that article reads as if there is only one way to show support and if you do it any other way your support is not welcome.

Well; it's iffy, because there is always a danger that the supporters do "take over" the movement, and this can be dangerous, no matter how benign their intentions. The main thing to watch out for is that the voice of the minority themselves can never be silenced cause of it.

Look at the case of the German trans girl Alex for example; I'm sure all the people involved have her well-being in mind, but she's not even given a voice. In the end, isn't the best way to know what people feel and want to ask them?

[Asta Kask]

You also have to remember that, for instance, trans people are the only ones who know what it is to be trans. They have relevant knowledge that cis people don't. They are really the only ones who know enough to set goals. Now, once the goals are set, that's another matter.

[KenderWizard]

Well to me at least that article reads as if there is only one way to show support and if you do it any other way your support is not welcome.

I didn't read it that way. I read the article on misogyny linked to in it, which makes a related point and does it a bit more clearly, I think. I think the idea is, that if you're an ally rather than a member of the "oppressed" or "minority" group, that you just have to make a bit of an effort to be aware of your privilege. If you're, say, white, and trying to be an ally in the struggle against racism, don't make it all about you. Make an effort to be a bit more patient and listen before you speak. Not because it's a "rule", and you don't count as an ally if you don't, but because it's the right thing to do: when you help someone, you don't want to push in over them and end up being part of the problem in an "I, Straight Person, am going to come to solve your weird queer problems since you can't do it yourself since you're all so gay and stuff." Not that anyone actually says that, I hope! That's an extreme. But if you're an ally, of course you can act, and of course you can speak, and if someone's saying something ridiculous you can call them out, but you should try to do it carefully and make sure you're keeping your own garden clean.

An article on girls being made to live as boys until majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15262680

Okay, ARGH I HIT BACK BY MISTAKE okay everything's fine...

Okay, so when I read your post first I was like "What? (Cis) girls being made to live as boys? That's crazy!" (I didn't think in words, I mean, but that was the gist of it.) Then I was like "oh, trans people are made live as the wrong gender all the time, that must be it. ". But no, apparently it is cis girls. Weird. I imagine this thought process says a lot about my ingrained assumptions and all that, but there ye go.

So, how f**ked up is that? Here's to a world where every baby boy is valued just for being a tiny miraculous bundle of new human life and not because it has the requisite genitalia to be more useful in a messed up society. And that's not just Afghanistan that's messed up in that way. We're looking at you, China. (Also, varying degrees of this and related problems almost everywhere, but hey, baby steps.)

[Coidzor]

Well; it's iffy, because there is always a danger that the supporters do "take over" the movement, and this can be dangerous, no matter how benign their intentions. The main thing to watch out for is that the voice of the minority themselves can never be silenced cause of it.

Is there really? I see people all paranoid about this all the time, but I've never heard of any example where this actually happened that's pointed at to justify and legitimize this fear that has to have steps taken in order to prevent against.

Especially because it seems mostly invoked to justify alienation of allies and potential allies as actually desirable because it wouldn't do to have allies become too comfortable, in an apparent act of missing the point in that it's not the allies that one wants to prevent from thinking one can be ignored, but rather the established order of the day that is being worked against.

Look at the case of the German trans girl Alex for example; I'm sure all the people involved have her well-being in mind, but she's not even given a voice. In the end, isn't the best way to know what people feel and want to ask them?

...The problem there is that apparently Germany has never actually heard of trans people, not that supporters of trans people have taken over the movement.

I didn't read it that way. I read the article on misogyny linked to in it, which makes a related point and does it a bit more clearly, I think. I think the idea is, that if you're an ally rather than a member of the "oppressed" or "minority" group, that you just have to make a bit of an effort to be aware of your privilege.

If that's what the article is trying to communicate then it fails abysmally.

If you're, say, white, and trying to be an ally in the struggle against racism, don't make it all about you.

Well, there's another problem, no? Is it really "making it all about you" to object to the movement sloganizing hate speech against the ethnic group you belong to? Or is it providing a catalyst to potentially cause people to wake up and remember not to be consumed by hate?

Not because it's a "rule", and you don't count as an ally if you don't, but because it's the right thing to do: when you help someone, you don't want to push in over them and end up being part of the problem in an "I, Straight Person, am going to come to solve your weird queer problems since you can't do it yourself since you're all so gay and stuff." Not that anyone actually says that, I hope!

Indeed, so why bring it up? It only serves to distract and detract from the good point you go on to make.

That's an extreme. But if you're an ally, of course you can act, and of course you can speak, and if someone's saying something ridiculous you can call them out, but you should try to do it carefully and make sure you're keeping your own garden clean.

I don't know the full details beyond what spilled over here, so I don't know how carefully the initial criticism was handled and whether that would have helped anything or if the people who wanted to flock to it as a rallying cry were spoiling for some confrontation anyway so even the best worded objection would have gotten their dander up, but, yes, some amount of care should be taken by everyone, especially in things that can provoke knee-jerk defensive reactions.

I view the initial reason for that post much like if, say, in the writer's example of their ableist epithets towards the wait-staff, they had been called on it and instead of realizing what they were doing they chose to explode in self-righteous indignation at how dare someone else call them on something so thoughtless when clearly they were angry and not thinking and that they have no right to criticize at all. and so on and so forth.

[Lyesmith]

You also have to remember that, for instance, trans people are the only ones who know what it is to be trans. They have relevant knowledge that cis people don't. They are really the only ones who know enough to set goals. Now, once the goals are set, that's another matter.

It's no justification for treating people who want to help you like dirt. The writer wants leniency for when she messes up in frustration, but seems to not want to grant others the same clemency. People are but flesh and blood, and they mess up. Just because someone drops the ball or isn't aware of your own personal super special snowflake hangup is no reason to throw toys out of the pram. And objecting to someone saying "Die cis scum" is hardly irrational or 'backstabbing'. I imagine "Die trans scum" wouldn't exactly go down like hugs and puppies.

[Qaera]

I wonder what Chinese parents would think if they had to give up a daughter so they could have a son, and then their son is a trans girl. :x

~ ♅

[Astrella]

Is there really? I see people all paranoid about this all the time, but I've never heard of any example where this actually happened that's pointed at to justify and legitimize this fear that has to have steps taken in order to prevent against.

Oh, it definitely happens. One example of a while back I can think of is several reasonably know gay people telling that the t-word (trans-specific slur, I think you know which one.) was okay to use.

[Coidzor]

Oh, it definitely happens. One example of a while back I can think of is several reasonably know gay people telling that the t-word (trans-specific slur, I think you know which one.) was okay to use.

That sounds more like people outside of the movement who aren't really even pretending to be wearing the ally cap defending use of a word that had become fetishized while calling upon non-heteronormative privilege for their "right" to make such a declaration.

[Mono Vertigo]

I wonder what Chinese parents would think if they had to give up a daughter do they could have a son, and then their son is a trans girl. :x

~ ♅

The stupid, unfunny part of my brain is going "here's karma for you! Hurr durr".
The rest says that it must be more common that we think, given the high population and grossly skewed boy/girl ratio.


@KenderWizard: it's not exactly an unusual or wrong train of thought, either.
There's so much wrong with that tradition, and so much that could be fixed if we just got rid of gender roles. Just let people live the way they want and kids play with each others freely, dammit.

[Lix Lorn]

I wonder what Chinese parents would think if they had to give up a daughter so they could have a son, and then their son is a trans girl. :x

~ ♅

Dramatic irony says that'd be hilarious. On the other hand, oh god that would not end well.

[Triscuitable]

How does it take three days?

And she was so happy.

It feels so wrong.

She says "you didn't do anything wrong".

But it feels like I did.

[Arachu]

I... Should abstain from commenting on the political/traditional/etc. commenting right now. I'm pretty upset about how my sister still hasn't responded yet (she did say something about not being upset, but also not wanting to talk). :/

I'm pretty sure what's bothering her is a perfectly reasonable cause to be angry, but that challenge still hurt... And I can't stand it when she's down.

I also like having more options in character creation. Most of the time, when a character is male, he's also broad and muscular. Bothers me especially when I want to make an OC, I have only one male character who's obviously tall, muscular, and testosterone-overdosed. The others range from "average" to "huge wuss".

I like to make a lot of my characters lean and agile (most of them are capable of fighting in some way), so I'm not too fond of the imposed MANly builds either... Usually female characters work out well enough (it's never that hard to make a tough girl, especially if there are goth/punk accessories and the like >:3), but it can be really tricky just to make an androgynous guy. >.<

I am making an absurdly-muscular superhuman in SC5 at the moment, but I think that was inspired by memories of Berserk.

*Cough* Anyway, I think it'd be neat to have games that let you edit elements of your character's mesh in pretty much whatever way you want to without all of that bland dimorphism getting in the way.

I wanna pet da kitty!!!

GET BACK TO DA KITTEH!

Thanks, I needed that. Not including the run-on plot sentence, there were so many errors, my grammar was atrocious, using wrong words, improper placement of an apostrophe. *shudders*

*More hugs*

>.>
<.<
*huggles*

*Hugs*

Wore my new shirt for the first time last night. :3
Skirt hasn't arrived yet though. >.>

Well, tell it to hurry up!

How does it take three days?

And she was so happy.

It feels so wrong.

She says "you didn't do anything wrong".

But it feels like I did.

*Hugs!*