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2012-03-29, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Oh yeah, it does sound better, and it's shorter. *nods*
Pacifism... I'll say that I'm one out of spite. I just don't trust anyone to use violence in an effective and justified way anymore. Pacifism is far from perfect, but humanity as a whole is too stupid to be allowed to be violent/anti-pacifist.
Hell, I am too stupid to be allowed to be violent. I wish I could directly beat up some people, and I wish that it also was the right solution, but I refrain myself from doing it, because I'm aware it's dumb. I am even stupid enough to regularly say "the person you're complaining about deserve to be slapped with a table", or variations thereof, half-seriously! I don't trust myself to use or suggest violence appropriately, therefore I don't trust others to do it either.
TL;DR: managing to be pacifist and cynical at once.Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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2012-03-29, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
He chose the name "Asher," and expressed the desire to be a mass-murderer. But thankfully something has prevented him from doing so. Of course he is not a nice man.
Probably the worst thing is that he's taught and is possibly still teaching this hatred to young people, apparently.
As is stupidity, yeah.
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2012-03-29, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-29, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
If you posit yourself as an LGBT+-advocate, then you are claiming to be an ally to the LGBT+ movement, which includes trans* people.
Sure, but I feel that people's rights in general are worth fighting for, not matter how they act towards me. And ally is a subjective label, just because person X doesn't consider you an ally doesn't mean person Y doesn't.
Sidethought: That is one of the things it wants to illustrate; people saying they won't fight for you anymore because you aren't playing nice as to say.
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My thoughts: My feelings on the phrase are all over the place. I think it can have value in a discussion; I don't think there's much to be gained by having it as a tatoo / wearing it on shirts, etc... (Because the phrase would only have meaning for people who are already aware of trans* stuff; and the fact that the "slogan" requires a detailed explanation sometimes does make it feel akin to punching someone in the stomach and then explaining why it was okay to do so.) However, I'm not fully convinced that the points the phrase is trying to make can't be made in a different way. So I'm very much in the middle about it. :sLast edited by Astrella; 2012-03-29 at 12:12 PM.
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2012-03-29, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
I'm sure that when someone is killed for being gay/black/disabled/homeless/etc. in the wrong place, they'll take comfort in knowing that it probably had absolutely nothing to do with their gender identity.
To turn back to the friendship metaphor, it cuts both ways. Decide that you can afford to alienate allies, don't be upset if people decide that you're not worth the bother. Insist that other people can't begin to know what you're going through, prepare to have them stop engaging in dialogue. (We have people out there who insist that the most oppressed people are those who can afford to overeat, ferchrissakes. You have to factor in that people are most sensitive to things that affect them. Listening does not mean listening uncritically.) Insist that your pet cause deserves everyone's understanding and attention, while not distracting yourself with other people's causes, means that the movement of you will quickly end up with the support of you.
There's a reason I consider the whole ally mentality toxic. "Friends" who have to continually guilt-trip you aren't really your friends. I thought we all learned this in after-school specials.Last edited by Reluctance; 2012-03-29 at 11:50 AM.
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2012-03-29, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
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2012-03-29, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-03-29, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
That's great in theory. In practice, if people insult me every time I show up to try and help them, I'm going to find other causes to devote my time and energy to.
It's a touch politically contentious, google it if you want to see why, but it comes down to a guy who was shot and killed for being suspicious (read: black) in the wrong area. And for wearing a hoodie. My less-political edit hopefully made things clearer. Focusing on in-group vs. out-group ignores all the other yucky isms at play out in the world. And in ignoring them, earns a whap on the nose with a rolled up newspaper for complicity.
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2012-03-29, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
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2012-03-29, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
I would be very impressed if a person who has almost been killed remained completely neutral and detached in his complaints. Besides, he hasn't got an arm long enough to get a tattoo with all disadvantaged groups. There are objections to the tattoo, but I don't think this is one.
ETA: You can't fix all injustices in the world. You have to concentrate on a few at a time. And the trans movement have concentrated on the most salient point in their daily lives.Last edited by Asta Kask; 2012-03-29 at 01:05 PM.
Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-03-29, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
I'm with Gandhi and King on this one. Violence and violent rhetoric are no way to improve things in the long run. "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
No, it's not easy. Yes, hatred to meet hatred is easier, and comes naturally. But I still think, after all I've been through, after all the hatred people have thrown at me that hatred is never the right response. It only brings more upon you. Anger is good, anger can be a powerful motivator to right wrongs and move away from stagnation, but you should never make the mistake of letting your anger spill over into hatred of other human beings.
And no, I don't always practice what I preach. I'm not that good. But I darn skippy keep trying to.
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2012-03-29, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Re: Voice / LGBT+ group; I wouldn't bar anyone from joining in if they wanted to hang out.
To make this easy everyone interested just add me on Skype? If we have an idea on numbers of people we can see how to handle this further.
(My skype is "lenaleaner")
Edit: Something interesting I came across. A proposed book series for children that explores gender identity.Last edited by Astrella; 2012-03-29 at 01:53 PM.
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2012-03-29, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-29, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Fair. In turn, I'll devote my time and energies into causes that don't tell me to **** off and die. Friendship is a two-way street, not sycophantry.
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And in the real world, you don't get force lightning out of the deal.
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2012-03-29, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-29, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Uhm, I might be missing something, but I think you are confusing people with causes. Causes can not insult you, only people can. And the attitudes of supporters do not affect the validity of the cause in any way. Otherwise any issue would be decided by who has the best manners, wouldn't it?
I am most likely misunderstanding, though. So feel free to correct me.Treasured Quotes
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2012-03-29, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
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2012-03-29, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-03-29, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-29, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
They can if they're an inherently offensive cause. Groups that support the cause can, and if enough groups embrace something so that it becomes ubiquitous...
Indeed. That's the point. Not giving up the moral high ground is impressive.
Mr. Bauer pretty much gave that up in the post he put up for "his anonymous friend."
They didn't cede the moral highground by embracing hate speech or advocating that they wished they could go out and murder people. And don't you dare continue to make such arguments to try to equate this Bauer fellow and people advocating non-violent resolution.
You may have been shamed into accepting that kind of behavior by Bauer as acceptable, but I ain't buying that load of hooey for one moment.
I think you're missing the point in that alienating people causes them to naturally want to put priority to their efforts into groups that don't alienate them.
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2012-03-29, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
True though that may be, nothing is accomplished by telling angry people to **** off. Intolerance isn't the way to promote tolerance.
I think that the comment was counter-productive and bigoted, but I also see that he must have a really good reason to be angry, or there wouldn't be much cause to declare hatred for the majority of humanity. I wholly agree with anyone who'd be offended by it, and they have every right to argue with him as often as they have to. But it shouldn't be responded to with more bigotry. That doesn't even make sense.
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2012-03-29, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
On allies, DCS, etc.
SpoilerHURM.
The "die cis scum" debacle reminds me about a Hulk story I once read. It was from the "The Intelligent Hulk" period when The Hulk had the personality of Robert Bruce Banner, and thus had both the powers of Hulk and the intellect of Bruce Banner. The Hulk, for some reason I don't remember, was brought to or traveled to another planet, in which green-skinned people were suppressed by orange-skinned people. (I'm not sure about the latter.) The green-skinned folks thought Banner/Hulk to be their savior foretold in their scriptures. Long story short, Hulk helped the green people in their struggle, and left them, thinking that everybody would know be happy and live in peace on that planet.
However, while piloting his spaceship, The Hulk took a look at the telescope directed at the planet he was leaving.
He now saw the green people treating the orange people just the same way the orange had treated the green: by beating them, insulting them, enslaving them.
OF COURSE, this won't change the (in this particular topic) self-righteous minds of Natalie Reed and WilloNyx. Because no way a persecuted group would take revenge on the group which persecuted them, because that has never happened in the history of mankind.
Agreed.
Exactly!
I share your sentiment.
I don't know what it means to be trans, but I love some persons who happen to be trans (meaning I have my personal, and if you so say so, selfish reasons to support trans people), and I know what it means to have been bullied and having faced bigotry. I may be "white"/European, but my hair is dark brown and curly, my eyes are brown, and I tan easily.
Heh.
To turn back to the friendship metaphor, it cuts both ways. Decide that you can afford to alienate allies, don't be upset if people decide that you're not worth the bother. Insist that other people can't begin to know what you're going through, prepare to have them stop engaging in dialogue. (We have people out there who insist that the most oppressed people are those who can afford to overeat, ferchrissakes. You have to factor in that people are most sensitive to things that affect them. Listening does not mean listening uncritically.) Insist that your pet cause deserves everyone's understanding and attention, while not distracting yourself with other people's causes, means that the movement of you will quickly end up with the support of you.
There's a reason I consider the whole ally mentality toxic. "Friends" who have to continually guilt-trip you aren't really your friends. I thought we all learned this in after-school specials.
This goes both ways. Those who are against LGBTA+, people of colour, people with disabilities, the elderly, women, men, etc, will find new people to hunt down when they're finished with one. In the end, no one will live, if we let hate live on.
I wish the "die cis scum" crowd got this.
Thank you.
Indeed.
I didn't want to talk about "die cis scum" again, but I feel forced to see a parallel here... no, there is no institutionalized physical bullying of men, but men could very well suffer from misdirected hate and resent.
no, there is no institutionalized physical bullying of men
I have never heard or read about it ever happening.
(Feel free to contact me at MSN or the Facebook chat.)
Look at the case of the German trans girl Alex for example; I'm sure all the people involved have her well-being in mind, but she's not even given a voice. In the end, isn't the best way to know what people feel and want to ask them?
I want to join too.Viking/Paladin by Astrella
Gender Bender by Geomancer.
In love with Skeppio.
Contact me:
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2012-03-29, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Total non-violence - even in the face of lethal threats - seems to me to be a morally bankrupt strategy. You are essentially leaving the resistance to those who are less 'morally perfect'. And if they are sufficiently impressed by your eloquence you will all sit down and let the tyrants cut your throats. No thank you.
This is getting too close to politics for my taste.Last edited by Asta Kask; 2012-03-29 at 03:03 PM.
Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-03-29, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Good thing no one's been doing that?
I don't think we've actually had anyone come into this thread who has been legitimately angry rather than distant from the phrase, after all.
Everything I've seen has mostly been legitimate points brought up about why it's a bad idea to say and try to grow with the occasional observation of "Wow, this guy just said he wanted to commit mass murder by agreeing completely with his 'anonymous friend.' That really just happened." I would not really qualify that last bit as telling an angry person to **** off either.
Indeed, that's a good point to bring up against people who'd want to throw that phrase around a lot. Letting people throw temper tantrums or continue to shoot off at the mouth after they're no longer angry isn't going to be doing anyone any favors. Intolerance and hate are to be combated, not allowed to fester and grow into something new and uglier.
The point is that it doesn't actually matter how much crap the man has been through. It's ultimately irrelevant. You don't get a license to do wrong simply because you have been wronged, it's basic morality that we teach our children, for as few of them actually learn it.
Bigotry should not be responded to by bigotry. Thankfully there has been no bigotry given in response, Arachu, so no worries there.
I would argue that it goes beyond "being offended" by it to object to it being said or people seeking to spread it and grow it. There's a big of sheer pragmatism and principle as well.
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2012-03-29, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
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2012-03-29, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
I'm sorry, I thought Asta came into this thread in the first place and brought "Die Cis Scum" all to our attention about how he had objected to it on Natalie Reed's blog and had a flame war erupt in his face, and then later came back in and admitted that he had seen the light.
My mistake then, I apologize.
The important part is that if he is, in fact, recognizing "Die Cis Scum" as "OK," then he is approving of something morally wrong even if it is ultimately impotent and for that reason I am obligated to disagree with him and anyone else who thinks it is OK in the most vehement and emphatic sense of the word. I will not be dissuaded by you, because my moral compass in this case is fairly rock solid and so I can tell that this is bad guys.
The more I see someone try to legitimize it, the more I must needs remind them that they are legitimizing something wrong and so doing wrong themselves.
I'm pretty sure that entire side discussion that Reluctance brought up and that you were missing the point of by arguing that people should support trans rights even if trans people treat them poorly when they try to support trans rights was about just that. Maybe I quoted the wrong block of text, but I'd swear there was a sub-thread between the two of you about just that.
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2012-03-29, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-29, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
No, I didn't, sadly.
SpoilerWhat I meant is that straight white cismen are not often oppressed because of their gender. When they do, it's generally in ways that discourage that from exhibiting "feminine" characteristics, or that get rid of privileges (like being able to raise or see your children when you're divorced), as opposite to direct violence and denial of basic human rights. Oppression of women is far worse than oppression of men, today, in most if not all places on Earth and around its atmosphere.
Or is it an idea that's directly contradicted by that movie?Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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2012-03-29, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Musashi, H Birchgrove:
SpoilerI suppose it could be argued that oppression is learned and honed on other young cismen as children, so that making inroads on bullying would make them less liable to bully outside their own group and making inroads against viewing other groups as truly "other" would have an effect in diminishing bullying within the group as well.
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2012-03-29, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is
Stop by the next local pride parade. Simple demographics mean that there are likely to be more straight allies than actual people the parade is meant for. (Kinsey's numbers are acknowledged as being inflated, and even by them, straights have a 9:1 edge over everyone else.) The official leaders won't be overturned, but most of the safe spaces will be co-opted.
Having said that, movements have to be much more careful about letting extremists run the show. It's all too easy to let ideological purity become a litmus test, which turns the movement into an ingrown caricature. Most of the examples I can think of are political and/or religious. I'm sure you can think of political and/or religious groups that have turned in on themselves to this degree on your own.
Do we need to discuss the difference between a sane view of self-defense and preemptive attacks?