League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my!

[PEACH]

You wouldn't build AP if all you wanted were good bases and absurd CC is what I'm saying. You'd build something else with that sololane farm. Same reason you don't really build AP on "AP" (AA Staff) Kog.

But what else is there to build?

Legitimately, Lulu doesn't *have* anything that scales particularly well, besides tanky stats (because her ult is bypasses ignite healing and her shield is, well, a shield, meaning that resists work really well). Either way she's strong to begin with and gains some, but not a lot, of power from getting AP/AD. In reality, AP is probably built because it A: seems like an OK idea, and B: strong bases and absurd CC with meh AP ratios on a self shield and self heal still gives AP some power because AP means she gets off more spells due to the tankiness it provides.

I had forgotten to take into account the benefit AP has regarding shields and heals (basically, AP ratios are more valuable on them because they not only bypass MR, but actively benefit from tanky stats as secondary scaling), so her AP ratios aren't that terrible, but they're still not amazing. I'm still fairly confident she's a mediocre scaling mage that happens to start out really strong and stays that way for quite a while.

[fred dref]

AP Lulu works almost entirely on the merits of her ultimate, which is basically healing that cannot be ignite-reduced, being put on a carry. AP Lulu and AP Soraka make a really strong supercarry support duo.

[PersonMan]

Eh, lategame you shouldn't need Chalice for mana regen anymore; Expanded Mind, potential Runes, level-based mana and the changing nature of engagements means you should be fine once you do that.

Expanded Mind which didn't, I think, exist back then - this was a looong time ago.

I'm not sure how it happened, but I had crippling man problems once Chalice was gone, so I stopped building Chalice and switched to Tear. I'm not sure how it'd work now, but I'm not really keen on playing an hour long game just to test that.

(Could be that my normal Heimer build includes no other source of mana or mana regen. Sorc Shoes, WotA, Rylai's, Void Staff, Derpcap, AA(formerly Chalice).

[Lix Lorn]

If it's worth going AP Lulu over Aura/ASpd Lulu, then her AP scaling has to be at least decent.

Wait wait
Eld, are you saying AS Lulu is actually a thing? (Hopeful)

[fred dref]

Expanded Mind which didn't, I think, exist back then - this was a looong time ago.

Expanded Mind existed before the mastery change. It was a slightly different form, in that it increased your base mana by 5% (I think it was 5%), but it was a similar effect.

[Eldariel]

Wait wait
Eld, are you saying AS Lulu is actually a thing? (Hopeful)

Plausible. The stats are there and it's a good natural scaling for her. It won't enhance her in the support role very much though so in a supercarry it won't be preferred; which brings us back to what fred said, she's built AP 'cause her defensive abilities scale quite well making any carries a sololaning Lulu protects extremely difficult to kill.

Expanded Mind which didn't, I think, exist back then - this was a looong time ago.

I'm not sure how it happened, but I had crippling man problems once Chalice was gone, so I stopped building Chalice and switched to Tear. I'm not sure how it'd work now, but I'm not really keen on playing an hour long game just to test that.

(Could be that my normal Heimer build includes no other source of mana or mana regen. Sorc Shoes, WotA, Rylai's, Void Staff, Derpcap, AA(formerly Chalice).

Banshee's would be my solution to upgrading Chalice while needing Mana. Also, Heimer should have blue.

Expanded Mind existed before the mastery change. It was a slightly different form, in that it increased your base mana by 5% (I think it was 5%), but it was a similar effect.

It also used to be terrible (to reach values you get now, you needed like 4k base Mana at which point you really didn't care all that much unless you were Ryze) and never picked (since Awareness was much better) while now it's basically a must-pick as a prerequisite for Meditation, and pretty good on its own (3 points instead of 4, much greater gains and tier 1 pick with a far less powerful competitor in Good Hands).

[toasty]

Wait wait
Eld, are you saying AS Lulu is actually a thing? (Hopeful)

Seeing as you do actually scale off of damage... yes?

Also: What else to build besides damage (AP) on heroes? Why, CDR, Auras, and tank.

Lulu could easily build Aegis Frozen Heart Shurelias out of solo top. Its not a terrible idea in terms of a pure build. Voyboy et al are obviously aware of this. Yet they build her AP. This implies there is some merit to her scaling.

[Arbitrarity]

Expanded Mind existed before the mastery change. It was a slightly different form, in that it increased your base mana by 5% (I think it was 5%), but it was a similar effect.

Old Expanded Mind was competing at second tier with Awareness. Current Expanded mind has twice the value, for 3 points (i.e. is 8/3 times as much mana per point) and competes with Good Hands, which is... pretty easy to beat. (Good hands only used to be picked because Perseverance was AWFUL)

[Silverraptor]

New item: Athene's Unholy Grail
+80 Ability Power +40 Magic Resist +15 Mana Regen per 5 seconds +15% Cooldown Reduction Passive: Restores 12% of your max Mana on Kill or Assist. UNIQUE Passive: Increases your Mana Regen by 1% per 1% Mana you are missing. Does not stack with Chalice of Harmony. Build: Chalice of Harmony, Fiendish Codex, Amplifying Tome + 380 gold. Costs 2950 total.


I'l be trying this out on Veigar when they have a lot of magic damage...

Nice. I approve of this item.

Also, I love those balance changes.

[Boowells]

I feel like AUG would be great on Swain and Anivia. AUG+Zhonya's Active especially on Swain.

I'm not sure how to feel about the Ryze changes. On one hand, the passive mana bonus on his ultimate was kinda silly and not worth much, whereas the movespeed bonus seems like it's pretty huge. On the other hand, I REALLY don't like the nerf on Overload's range, but it gets mana cost reduction and a base damage buff instead. I think it's overall maybe a buff, but mainly because of the movespeed bonus. I love extra movespeed.

[toasty]

The ryze changes are needed. Ryze is too tanky for the damage he has. This is a slight reduction on that damage, and it also forces Ryze to make use of his full combo. E was pretty worthless, now its only slightly worthless.

The movespeed is, I hope, an attempt to make Ryze more bent towards utility as a Tankymage rather than as a Burst Mage with good sustain and good sustained damage and tankiness. Cuz that was ... yeah, dumb.

[Draken]

The ryze changes are needed. Ryze is too tanky for the damage he has. This is a slight reduction on that damage, and it also forces Ryze to make use of his full combo. E was pretty worthless, now its only slightly worthless.

The movespeed is, I hope, an attempt to make Ryze more bent towards utility as a Tankymage rather than as a Burst Mage with good sustain and good sustained damage and tankiness. Cuz that was ... yeah, dumb.

Overload Lost 1% of its mana scaling and gained 20 damage.

It takes 2000 mana to get 20 damage with that 1%.

Spell Flux gained 1% mana scaling.

Besides the range and root duration nerf bits. This is a straight up buff. Not a single point of damage lost, quite a few gained. No tankyness lost either.

Frankly, Ryze probably just move-speeded himself into overpowered territory.

[Math_Mage]

Overload Lost 1% of its mana scaling and gained 20 damage.

It takes 2000 mana to get 20 damage with that 1%.

Spell Flux gained 1% mana scaling.

You use Q a lot more than E, so a 1% nerf to Q means a lot more than a 1% buff to E even with bounces. Then note the additional .5% nerf to W.

Besides the range and root duration nerf bits. This is a straight up buff. Not a single point of damage lost, quite a few gained. No tankyness lost either.

So, except for nerfs on REALLY IMPORTANT things like RANGE on his primary damage and (former) highest-range spell, and DURATION on his only CC...he wasn't nerfed.

Frankly, Ryze probably just move-speeded himself into overpowered territory.

Well, I'll happily take the movespeed, but I doubt the net effect on Ryze's power is positive.

[Draken]

You use Q a lot more than E, so a 1% nerf to Q means a lot more than a 1% buff to E even with bounces. Then note the additional .5% nerf to W.

Q's damage is still going up by a lot in the early game and probably by a bit in the late game.

That W lost a minimal ammount of damage is likely irreevant because it is not spammed. E, in turn, gains a bit of damage. More than W loses, at any rate.

Overal it looks like the damage goes up

So, except for nerfs on REALLY IMPORTANT things like RANGE on his primary damage and (former) highest-range spell, and DURATION on his only CC...he wasn't nerfed.

Range nerf is relevant, but the extra move speed should compensate for it in the long run. CC duration is a pretty tiny nerf.

Well, I'll happily take the movespeed, but I doubt the net effect on Ryze's power is positive.

I do believe his damage is plain going up.

[Laudandus]

I do believe his damage is plain going up.

His early game damage is going up, but ratio on his Q hurts his damage a lot more than ratio on his E helps, since his Q gets used a lot more times per combo.

[Tesla_pasta]

Ryze's damage is probably going up by a bit, but the range nerf is annoying, as a semi-regular ryze player. the range on q, combined with the good sustain inherit in his build is what made him a rough laner. The q range nerf means he takes more counter-harass in lane. His sustain has always been good, so whatever. The movespeed on his ULT is pretty sweet, though.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Mundo is King.

[Eldariel]

His early game damage is going up, but ratio on his Q hurts his damage a lot more than ratio on his E helps, since his Q gets used a lot more times per combo.

To put some numbers here, it's generally 4 Qs to one E in the full chain. Of course, E does bounce around though, so it has high potential damage but it can also jump to minions or creeps or whatever.

[Eurus]

Any idea HOW much range it's losing? That really seems like the clincher here.

[Litewarior]

It's a 25 range nerf, not huge, but definitely noticeable.

What I think people aren't realizing is that the ult change also changes his spell rotation. I used to be you could go qwqeqrqwqeq and feel good about that, but now it feels necessary to use his r to initiate, which means you have to wait a couple of seconds to finish your rotation.

[TechnOkami]

Mundo is King.

I will second this notion.

[Qwertystop]

I will second this notion.

Mundo not king. King sits on shiny chair all day. MUNDO GOES WHERE HE PLEASES.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Mundo not king. King sits on shiny chair all day. MUNDO GOES WHERE HE PLEASES.

What of the kings that are at the forefront of their armies during wartime?

[Qwertystop]

What of the kings that are at the forefront of their armies during wartime?

Mundo not that kind of king either. Mundo not like having to not-kill some people. MUNDO KILL WHO HE PLEASES.

[Silverraptor]

Mundo not king. King sits on shiny chair all day. MUNDO GOES WHERE HE PLEASES.

Mundo also needs you to do his paperwork.

CORPORATE MUNDO!!!

[Arbitrarity]

Any idea HOW much range it's losing? That really seems like the clincher here.

http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/20...est-beta-realm

25 range down, to 650.

For contrast, this is... the difference between Graves/Miss Fortune, or other "normal ranged" carries. 650 is basically "barely longer than Annie" range, and longer than Brand's Conflagration. Still slightly longer ranged than Rune Prison.

Looks like a slight nerf to me, or possibly an attempt to even out Ryze's skill usefulness, and make AP more useful on him. Spell flux has been pretty useless since Ryze changes. It also is a slight buff to his early game, with lower mana costs, and better base damage on Q.
Assuming a standard combo contains 3 Q's, a W, and an E that hits the target once, at 4k mana, Ryze loses 40 damage with ratio changes. If he has 65 AP, there is no difference, due to the Q ratio buffs. The Desperate Power change costs him 56.25 damage in such a short combo. Similarly, 100 AP will even out even this out.

RoA/AA/FH/Veil/Sorc/WoTA Ryze (no mana runes) (4456 mana, 4681 with current Desperate Power, 294 AP, 300 with current Desperate Power) on QWQEQRQWQEQ (6 Q, 2 W, 2 E), with worst case E bounce (no bounce) will do 5142 up from 5007 base damage.
If we cut the Archangel's, the damage gap narrows... not doing a full recalculation, but quick estimation says 140 points damage difference delta in favor of old Ryze (160 from Q ratio change, minus 20 from extra AP favoring old Ryze due to AA mana->AP), which means equal total damage.
If you look at Catalyst/Tear/Glacial, though, I think you'll find a bit of damage loss, unless you get good E bounces. (3556 mana, 3781 with current Desperate Power, 0 AP), same combo loses 182 damage, in comparison. If you get 2 E bounces, you gain net damage, though, so eh. Also, as level decreases, changed Ryze is relatively stronger (base damage on Q means more)

Appears to be more of a tweak than a nerf.

[Eldariel]

http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/20...est-beta-realm

25 range down, to 650.

For contrast, this is... the difference between Graves/Miss Fortune, or other "normal ranged" carries. 650 is basically "barely longer than Annie" range, and longer than Brand's Conflagration. Still slightly longer ranged than Rune Prison.

Looks like a slight nerf to me, or possibly an attempt to even out Ryze's skill usefulness, and make AP more useful on him. Spell flux has been pretty useless since Ryze changes. It also is a slight buff to his early game, with lower mana costs, and better base damage on Q.
Assuming a standard combo contains 3 Q's, a W, and an E that hits the target once, at 4k mana, Ryze loses 40 damage with ratio changes. If he has 65 AP, there is no difference, due to the Q ratio buffs. The Desperate Power change costs him 56.25 damage in such a short combo. Similarly, 100 AP will even out even this out.

RoA/AA/FH/Veil/Sorc/WoTA Ryze (no mana runes) (4456 mana, 4681 with current Desperate Power, 294 AP, 300 with current Desperate Power) on QWQEQRQWQEQ (6 Q, 2 W, 2 E), with worst case E bounce (no bounce) will do 5142 up from 5007 base damage.
If we cut the Archangel's, the damage gap narrows... not doing a full recalculation, but quick estimation says 140 points damage difference in favor of old Ryze (160 from Q ratio change, minus 20 from extra AP favoring old Ryze due to AA mana->AP)
If you look at Catalyst/Tear/Glacial, though, I think you'll find a bit of damage loss, unless you get good E bounces.

Appears to be more of a tweak than a nerf.

How about the typical FH/Veil/Tear/WoTA/Void/Boots Ryze? Either way, this moves more of his damage to the lategame which I guess is sensible. It's also more or less the end of Manamune Ryze, I suppose, since AP becomes significantly more important. Even Deathcap becomes a remote possibility (though what would one drop, really? Veil or WoTA are really the only options). Also makes ROA more interesting.

I like these changes. They actually make standard caster itemization somewhat useful on him (.4 on a 1 sec CD spell is actually fairly decent) broadening the horizons so you don't build the 5/6 same items every game. They might also make him a bit less stupid of a bruiser.

[TechnOkami]

...this is the second time I've never wanted to log into League of Legends just because the login screen was so damn cool.

The second was with Surprise Party Fiddlesticks.

[Arbitrarity]

How about the typical FH/Veil/Tear/WoTA/Void/Boots Ryze? Either way, this moves more of his damage to the lategame which I guess is sensible. It's also more or less the end of Manamune Ryze, I suppose, since AP becomes significantly more important. Even Deathcap becomes a remote possibility (though what would one drop, really? Veil or WoTA are really the only options). Also makes ROA more interesting.

I like these changes. They actually make standard caster itemization somewhat useful on him (.4 on a 1 sec CD spell is actually fairly decent) broadening the horizons so you don't build the 5/6 same items every game. They might also make him a bit less stupid of a bruiser.

That should be.... tied. Almost exactly. Calculation for damage delta (old - new) for QWQEQRQWQEQ, assuming no bounces, is....

3.75 (225*0.55 total mana ratio, minus 120 base damage on Q) +0.05*mana (total ratio on entire combo is 0.55 old, 0.5 new, assuming no bounces) - 1.2* AP
Add increments of 0.01 mana per bounce (up to 0.10, for 5 bounces on each E, or 0.04, since you can get up to 2 extra hits on main target)
Anyways, that's 3.75 + 184 - 180, for... 7.75 damage less. If you dropped 3 points into AP in offense, and have ignite on cooldown (with offense mastery), new Ryze pulls ahead by a point of damage. Basically identical. Well, except that new Ryze has MS boost on Desperate Power, for the awesome.

RoA now pulls even further ahead of Veil for actual damage, which allows the possibility of a squisher Ryze (at least to magic damage) who deals more damage. I can't justify Deathcap still.
Note that flat mana page results in about 10 points damage delta in favor of old Ryze, which is... irrelevant. Still better than AP, of course (total AP ratio 4.4, total mana ratio 0.5, from 3.2 and 0.55)

[Silverraptor]

...this is the second time I've never wanted to log into League of Legends just because the login screen was so damn cool.

The second was with Surprise Party Fiddlesticks.

Grrr... wish I could log in...

Someone link me to a youtube video with the new log in screen. There should be one out by now I would think...