Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

[Aotrs Commander]

When you're hungry, even MREs are considered food!

On reflection, I'm not sure everyone being forced to eat MREs isn't worse than the galactic holocaust...



Changing the subject, I just watched AngryJoe's video on the indoctrination theory.

And I wonder.

Are Bioware actually brazen enough to have planned this? Do the indoctrination and then reveal it later in the "new" DLC? Could they actually have, as there was some evidence that EA was pushing them for a March release when they wanted summer, been unbeliveably cunning, and taken the chance to buy themselves the time to make the "proper" ending they wanted to make at EA's expense and the PR damage? Could they actually have trolled us all, the fans and maybe even EA itself? If they've come this far with it all, lying about what the DLC contains would make sense... In for a penny, in for a pound and all that... (One other thing that makes me think about it is that in that Bioware panel a few pages back, one of the crew made an off-hand comment about Casey Hudson (that's his name, right?) thinking everyone is as clever as he is. Which, when presented with the evidence again, especially that first stuff with the first appearance of the child, makes me wonder if he's actually sneaky and clever enough to have pulled this off.)

Because I want it noted, officially. If they actually HAVE done this, it is the most sensationally crazy awesome thing in the history of gaming, and I will... Actually I don't know what I will do, because it will be the most stupendously brazen, brilliantly amazing thing ever done.

I'm not going to raise my hopes, but there are a few hints, here and there - we'll see I guess.

The only other thing, something that occurred to me, and a sobering thought at that, makes me think there's at least a possibility is this:

It's exactly what I'd have done in the same situation.

[Psyren]

If IDT is true I'll be immensely disappointed. It means we had an incomplete game all along, rather than one that simply lacked explanation. It also raises the major question of why Vendetta didn't detect indoctrination in Shepard.

For Bioware, it would also counter their "no new endings" statement, though it wouldn't be the first time they've contradicted themselves I suppose.

IT is interesting, sure... but not particularly brilliant or amazing from where I'm sitting.

[Name_Here]

Then they grow something more efficient in the vats first. The point is that they don't need actual pastures or farms just yet, which means the state of the planet is less of a worry.

Vat growing isn't done for crops. The only thing that is more efficient to grow in vats is meat and other protiens.

This is because animals be they chickens, cows or fish waste a lot of energy moving around also in producing the parts we don't eat, Digestive tracks, bones, brains and organs. The same can't just be transferred over to making just ears of corn or apples or whatever. Because those are made up of numerous cells working together.

Hell, the Turian shelters in ME2 fed folks with "nutrient paste" - I would imagine levo- and dextro- versions of this would be pretty effiicient to produce and store even if it wasn't the most luxurious thing in the world to eat.

As long as nobody starves, we can work our way back up to the good stuff.

Once again we come up against the fact that industry is destroyed. You need factories to create a nutrient paste that can be stored and transported easily. Factories that will require big mixers to grind and mix up whatever base they use to make the paste machines to remove excess water, big ovens to cook the paste to kill off the bacteria specialized machines to pack it into sterile containers. These take time to build and put into place. Time that the population of earth will spend starving and spreading disease.

[Psyren]

Every factory everywhere is vaporized? That would take an awfully long time, even for Reapers.

And you're assuming the army has no supplies, i.e. will start starving immediately. They didn't know in advance how long the battle for Earth would take; that strikes me as immensely irresponsible.

Neither of us have hard data, obviously, but there's far more wiggle room here than you seem to believe. (Or are willing to.)

[Serenity]

I certainly don't think everyone in the galaxy starves to death. In fact, I think civilians still on their planets are probably doing all right. I'm sure there's some heavily trade dependent colonies that are in serious trouble, but I imagine most places elsewhere in the galaxy are able to hunker down, focus on subsistence, and get themselves by. It's the fleet in the Sol system that I'm worried about. I don't think all of them are going to starve either, but I simply don't believe that any of them had provisions stored for several years, or that many ships besides the Quarian liveships have facilities to cultivate food. So I'll allow that agriculture on Earth is (mostly) untouched, and that the Quarians can produce enough dextro-proteins to feed themselves and the Turians. That still seems to me to leave the fleet on starvation rations at best. Hopefully, Wrex is in charge of the krogans in that event--Wreav would probably turn them to raiding right quick.

Although...I suppose as I think about it, I do see one more possible source of food production. If the Citadel is indeed still mostly intact and functioning, that might be able to cover the worst of the food shortage around Sol.

I do not accept the contention that current-gen FTL is enough to take the various races home in a reasonable amount of time. The Codex says decades-to-centuries, and it's repeatedly driven home that Mass Relays are what makes it possible to get beyond the local (or Local, in Sol's case) cluster. I consider that part of the premise of the series, and if specific numbers seem to contradict that, than it either means the writers didn't consider the implications of the numbers, or there are other factors that haven't been accounted for. By analogy: Janeway says at the beginning of Voyager that it will take them 75 years to get home from the Delta Quadrant under Voyager's own warp capabilities. If there were actual calculations about the capabilities of the warp drive that would have them getting home in a decade, then those calculations must be wrong.

Building next-gen FTL? Lovely idea. I just can't take for granted that it will happen in the timely fashion. The Sol system was already largely depleted of resources before the Reapers came. Its industrial base and infrastructure has been, to paraphrase from Old World Blues, tag teamed by giant Cthuloid frack-bots. Even accepting that we have all the Tony Starks of the galaxy working on this box of scraps, it just doesn't seem like progress could possibly be so rapid.

[Psyren]

Those frack-bots are themselves resources now - whether passively if they're scrap, or actively if they're controlled/synthesized. So either way, I expect technological advances rather quickly.

[Derthric]

On reflection, I'm not sure everyone being forced to eat MREs isn't worse than the galactic holocaust...

Now I feel weird for always bringing MRE's with me when I go camping.

Changing the subject, I just watched AngryJoe's video on the indoctrination theory.

And I wonder.

Are Bioware actually brazen enough to have planned this? Do the indoctrination and then reveal it later in the "new" DLC? Could they actually have, as there was some evidence that EA was pushing them for a March release when they wanted summer, been unbeliveably cunning, and taken the chance to buy themselves the time to make the "proper" ending they wanted to make at EA's expense and the PR damage? Could they actually have trolled us all, the fans and maybe even EA itself? If they've come this far with it all, lying about what the DLC contains would make sense... In for a penny, in for a pound and all that... (One other thing that makes me think about it is that in that Bioware panel a few pages back, one of the crew made an off-hand comment about Casey Hudson (that's his name, right?) thinking everyone is as clever as he is. Which, when presented with the evidence again, especially that first stuff with the first appearance of the child, makes me wonder if he's actually sneaky and clever enough to have pulled this off.)

Because I want it noted, officially. If they actually HAVE done this, it is the most sensationally crazy awesome thing in the history of gaming, and I will... Actually I don't know what I will do, because it will be the most stupendously brazen, brilliantly amazing thing ever done.

I'm not going to raise my hopes, but there are a few hints, here and there - we'll see I guess.

The only other thing, something that occurred to me, and a sobering thought at that, makes me think there's at least a possibility is this:

It's exactly what I'd have done in the same situation.

If IDT is true I'll be immensely disappointed. It means we had an incomplete game all along, rather than one that simply lacked explanation. It also raises the major question of why Vendetta didn't detect indoctrination in Shepard.

For Bioware, it would also counter their "no new endings" statement, though it wouldn't be the first time they've contradicted themselves I suppose.

IT is interesting, sure... but not particularly brilliant or amazing from where I'm sitting.

I am not a fan of the Indoctrination Theory for some of the reasons Psyren gave. But the shipping and distributing a false ending is something even EA isn't evil enough to do.

However the "no new endings" does not make the Indoctrination Theory unavailable if it was planned all along. Its the intending ending restored. Mind Blown!

That being said, I doubt it's going to happen.

[Aotrs Commander]

If IDT is true I'll be immensely disappointed. It means we had an incomplete game all along, rather than one that simply lacked explanation.

Yes, but that might have been the plan all along (or perhaps, since EA didn't want to give them enough time.)

For Bioware, it would also counter their "no new endings" statement, though it wouldn't be the first time they've contradicted themselves I suppose.

That assumes we're seen the "ending" at all. Bioware might be telling us the exact truth, that the ending is not being changed, but expanded - but what we've seen may not be the ending.

Or, like all good DMs, they may be just flat-out, poker-faced lying (no sense in giving the game away at the point, right?)

Is it likely?

Well, I'd have to say probably not.

But the thought of a games company pulling one over on EA and potentially all of us in the biggest PR stunt in gaming history is rather enticing.

Let's face it, if this is true, it's hardly going to make their situation much worse, is it? Given that it seems the majority of the fanbase dislike the ending, it may be a calculated risk that it further alienates some fans for one reason or another for satiating the rest.

(Heck, there's even a cynical reason for EA to be behind this, in that if so, it DOES open the way for paid-DLC endings, which on a corperate level, would be appealing to them.)



I'm still not expecting it - but... Given how much I loathe the ending, the glimmer of hope is extremely appealing. I guess only time will tell whether Bioware have made a brazen move of genius or a disasterous misstep.

[Name_Here]

Every factory everywhere is vaporized? That would take an awfully long time, even for Reapers.

Nobody hides factories. They are built to have people find them, and work in them. The Reapers aren't stupid they would have destroyed nearly all of them.

And you're assuming the army has no supplies, i.e. will start starving immediately. They didn't know in advance how long the battle for Earth would take; that strikes me as immensely irresponsible.

I'm assuming that the civilians that probably still outnumber all the military forces by an order of magnetude don't have a great amount of supplies having not been able to create any during the occupation.

Any supplies that the military has would last hours not days.

Neither of us have hard data, obviously, but there's far more wiggle room here than you seem to believe. (Or are willing to.)

Only thing we don't have wiggle room on is the Bioware statement that nobody in the entire galaxy dies of starvation. Not the shlubs on Omega not the people on Novaria nobody starves. As long as this is your base assumption I'm not the one refusing to budge.

Nothing you have presented could possibly come close to reliably being able to feed the Billions on earth the day after the Crucible fires. Nothing you proposed could be up and running 2 weeks after the crucible fires. There is no way that the humans rescued from the Reaper camps who more than likely are suffering already from malnutrition could survive the time it would require to set up a reliable way to shuttle in food from the ships.

If you were willing to budge from the "Nobody starves" line to "Yeah there probably was a bit of starvation but nothing worse than was going on on earth before the reapers invaded." I'd be more than willing to meet you there.

[Avilan the Grey]

Only thing we don't have wiggle room on is the Bioware statement that nobody in the entire galaxy dies of starvation.

Nobody WE KNOW die from starvation. The Tweet, as far as I understand it, was specifically responding to the "Tali and Garrus will starve to death!" claim fans made.

Edit: I think a total death toll of 25% of everyone in the galaxy is sensible and realistic. I don't have a problem with that. Turian suicide bombers killed MILLIONS of civilians with every Reaper they killed on Palaven. And that was just the sacrifices they did WILLINGLY. Add starvation, casualties, husks etc etc...

[Psyren]

Nobody hides factories. They are built to have people find them, and work in them. The Reapers aren't stupid they would have destroyed nearly all of them.

The Reapers were taking their sweet time. Had they wanted to turn the planet into a parking lot and move on, they could and would have - yet they didn't.

Remember, harvesting the Protheans took centuries to do. That's a long time to go without food, don't you agree? Especially since one of their preferred tactics was to take down enclaves of refugees from within via indoctrinated sleeper agents. Well, those refugees were eating something too.

I'm assuming that the civilians that probably still outnumber all the military forces by an order of magnetude don't have a great amount of supplies having not been able to create any during the occupation.

Any supplies that the military has would last hours not days.

Only if you assume the military is the only source of food in Sol. I don't, and have no reason to.

If you were willing to budge from the "Nobody starves" line to "Yeah there probably was a bit of starvation but nothing worse than was going on on earth before the reapers invaded." I'd be more than willing to meet you there.

You're being way too literal. You can have millions, even a few billion humans or other aliens die, yet still have enough left to sustain a viable population once the rationing is complete. "Nobody starves" doesn't have to be taken so literally; it can easily mean "no races starve" rather than "no individuals starve."

[Derthric]

Those frack-bots are themselves resources now - whether passively if they're scrap, or actively if they're controlled/synthesized. So either way, I expect technological advances rather quickly.

But you still need to break down said frak-bots. In what facilities is this going to happen? How are you going to build new drive cores and install them without drydock facilities? Earth's industries are gone, the Reapers make them priority 2 targets after military targets, just ask the residents of Ft. Worth and Adelaide. To build a drive core you need the proper facilities, which require them to be rebuilt, which means you need the construction equipment, machine tools, fabricators, safety equipment and a trained labor force. That all takes time, time much of the galaxy wont have. And they will find other ways to adapt which creates societal divides when reconnection happens.

Then of course wehave the question about weather or not the reapers stick around in Control or Synthesis? I am pretty sure Shepard gets one order to send out, in Control, and I feel safe in saying that the order is more than likely "F*** OFF". And I doubt they will like people ripping them open to pillage eezo and parts in Synthesis.

That all being said a Galactic Dark Age is not a bad story idea, its just so poorly executed and appears to be a result of them not thinking through what happens that it becomes a problem. At the moment of Shepard's death the sacrifice is hollow, its on someone else's terms and resolves a conflict that that other has been the only one to percieve. The meaning it is given has to come from its results and payoff. What we have is an apparent death for the sake of having the hero die, followed by a whole lot of nuthin'. In that nuthin' I put a Galactic Dark Age because that seems to make sense to me, others do not. The problem of what we say happens next is a symptom of the broken narrative. They need to address the cause of the sickness not the symptoms.

[Name_Here]

The Reapers were taking their sweet time. Had they wanted to turn the planet into a parking lot and move on, they could and would have - yet they didn't.

Remember, harvesting the Protheans took centuries to do. That's a long time to go without food, don't you agree? Especially since one of their preferred tactics was to take down enclaves of refugees from within via indoctrinated sleeper agents. Well, those refugees were eating something too.

Harvesting the entire prothean empire took a century an empire that spanned the entire Galaxy and represented hundreds of worlds. This cycle also doesn't represent their usual MO. Usually they cut off the Mass Relays when they enter through the Citadel cutting off the planets then they overwhelm one planet at at time with the full might of the Reapers while the individual planets remain cut off from each other unable to organize for an actual war.

And the Reapers went out of their way to destroy industry everywhere in the galaxy. Why would they leave any type of industry on Earth untouched?

Only if you assume the military is the only source of food in Sol. I don't, and have no reason to.

No we have Earth which has been blasted to hell and back that can't just start up it's agriculture with a snap of fingers.

You're being way too literal. You can have millions, even a few billion humans or other aliens die, yet still have enough left to sustain a viable population once the rationing is complete. "Nobody starves" doesn't have to be taken so literally; it can easily mean "no races starve" rather than "no individuals starve."

Nobody really can't be taken to mean that an entire race doesn't starve. It's a completely wrong use of language. You don't look at a disaster area and say nobody starved because there are enough people alive at the end to rebuild.

And if you believe that Billions throughout the galaxy might have starved then why argue against my point that there was any starvation? Why argue that the earth would be more than able to produce enough food to feed everybody on planet within days? If you agree that there is starvation why argue that vat grown meat solves everything?

[ShinyRocks]

My take on the Indoctrination Theory is that, well, it works logically. Indoctrination wasn't detected because it's only in the end sequence that it's being attempted. We don't really know how it works. Matriarch Benezia seems to suggest it's slow, from being aboard Sovereign, but we don't know that's the ONLY way.

So everything from the lift onwards is Starkid trying to Indoctrinate Shepard, and your options are whether or not you resist it. It works, and is logically sound in my mind.

HOWEVER! Attempting that much of a mindscrew - you're not choosing what you think you're choosing - is a bit much. It could have a massively negative impact on a player's experience of the game, for the chance for the game to turn around and say 'Ha ha fooled you!'.

And if it's true, and what they planned all along, then I Do. Not. Approve. Because 95% of players will have their consoles online (PC players HAVE to have online access to play, is that right?), sure. But there will be those who don't for whatever reason. And if they're shut off from receiving the true ending, in a single player game that Bioware maintained did not need online multiplayer to complete (even though that was basically a lie), then that is utterly appalling.

It's bad enough that people will miss out on the expanded ending; if it's the 'Real' ending, that is just not cool.

[Derthric]

I am just going to leave this here. This talk about the reconstruction made me think of it.

[Anarion]

Here is where I come down differently from many in this thread. The galaxy is big, very very big. Even if 10% of its population dies off (which would certainly be in the billions) I don't think that leads to a dark age, whatever one might define that to mean. I see that kind of ending more as initial suffering, followed by the fleet and scattered populations getting into contact and banding together to rebuild. That would be followed by improved tech and a reestablishing of intergalactic travel at a minimum at reaper ship speeds. TIM reversed engineered so much reaper stuff in a short time, I don't think it unreasonable, especially with the aid of prothean tech as well, to simply get much faster ships within a few years or less.

I'm also looking at the way that we rebuild in the real world following disasters and how long that takes and assuming that with fabricators, top class military engineers, and the resources of the entire Sol system, they can match or exceed our rates of rebuilding. A few biotics, for example, can easily do the work of heavy machinery in clearing debris and restoring transportation networks. Getting major manufacturing going on Earth should be done within the year.

Finally, a lot of people have thrown out the argument that our decisions don't matter because of the ending. But I played a paragon Shepard. I went through the entire galaxy uniting all the species to come work together and save Earth. I made peace between Geth and Quarians and hopefully led to a renaissance of the Krogan. The peoples in MY galaxy would stick together after my death through whatever hardship awaited them because I had shown them the advantages of working together. And I hope that the extended cut DLC shows exactly that happening because it would vindicate the choices that I made throughout the entire game, even past the ending. And if you played a renegade instead and let a lot more people die, I hope it shows a much darker ending corresponding to the choices that you made.

[Joran]

HOWEVER! Attempting that much of a mindscrew - you're not choosing what you think you're choosing - is a bit much. It could have a massively negative impact on a player's experience of the game, for the chance for the game to turn around and say 'Ha ha fooled you!'.

That much of a mindscrew was the climax of Bioshock and for which it was widely praised.

But the Indoctrination Theory is just wishful thinking on the part of the fans.

[Derthric]

Here is where I come down differently from many in this thread. The galaxy is big, very very big. Even if 10% of its population dies off (which would certainly be in the billions) I don't think that leads to a dark age, whatever one might define that to mean. I see that kind of ending more as initial suffering, followed by the fleet and scattered populations getting into contact and banding together to rebuild. That would be followed by improved tech and a reestablishing of intergalactic travel at a minimum at reaper ship speeds. TIM reversed engineered so much reaper stuff in a short time, I don't think it unreasonable, especially with the aid of prothean tech as well, to simply get much faster ships within a few years or less.

I'm also looking at the way that we rebuild in the real world following disasters and how long that takes and assuming that with fabricators, top class military engineers, and the resources of the entire Sol system, they can match or exceed our rates of rebuilding. A few biotics, for example, can easily do the work of heavy machinery in clearing debris and restoring transportation networks. Getting major manufacturing going on Earth should be done within the year.

Finally, a lot of people have thrown out the argument that our decisions don't matter because of the ending. But I played a paragon Shepard. I went through the entire galaxy uniting all the species to come work together and save Earth. I made peace between Geth and Quarians and hopefully led to a renaissance of the Krogan. The peoples in MY galaxy would stick together after my death through whatever hardship awaited them because I had shown them the advantages of working together. And I hope that the extended cut DLC shows exactly that happening because it would vindicate the choices that I made throughout the entire game, even past the ending. And if you played a renegade instead and let a lot more people die, I hope it shows a much darker ending corresponding to the choices that you made.

I think it comes down to the time scale, ability to communicate, and the maintenance of social order. I think we disagree about time scale and just what their industrial capabilities are. Without agreement on that we wont come to a consensus. The problem is that they say one thing at one time and another thing at another. they say the reapers strip a planet of industry, hence why they glass Adelaide, Ft Worth and Beckenstien. And Beckenstien was just because of binocular factories, according to Allers anyway. We dont know the exact nature of the means by which they built the crucible. Going into the final moments I assumed it was at an alliance base, however others think it was spaceborn and just the fleets themselves did it. I also did not think they would put all the brightest minds in thte Galaxy on the Crucible and bring them into the fight. Once again others do. That's not even getting into if the QEC network is far reaching enough to maintain social cohesion or if it can be maintained when something like 80% of galactic military force is now isolated in one system and huge swaths of populations are displaced from the crazy evacuations that were going on.

On Evacuations, where were they going? Hackett states that they are evacuating places like Elysium, Benning, and the Codex says Eden Prime if you get the intel to the Resistance. They have to be dumping those people off somewhere. That's millions of people now displaced probably in places not meant to house them, its the superdome repeated over and over across the galaxy. Or are they all floating about a ragtag fleet looking for a lost world known only as Earth. Stole the "all this has happened before" and Synthesis BS from BSG why not that too.

[Zevox]

Because I want it noted, officially. If they actually HAVE done this, it is the most sensationally crazy awesome thing in the history of gaming, and I will... Actually I don't know what I will do, because it will be the most stupendously brazen, brilliantly amazing thing ever done.

If that turns out to be the case, my opinion of them will drop tremendously. That would be utterly, inexcusably awful. To make a mistake is one thing, and one I'm more than willing to excuse, especially given their track record. To deliberately make something this nonsensical for the ending to your huge, three-game story, no matter the motive, would be something I could not excuse.

Especially if they use the Indoctrination Theory - whether they were taking it from the fans or had it in mind all along, it's a horrible idea, worse than what we've got as a story and still completely nonsensical in so many ways.

At this point though I'm pretty confident that's not the case. If they had this prepared in advance they'd be ready to release the DLC sooner. If this were planned from the start I don't believe they'd be lying about it now, since it would serve just to continue to tick off fans who like the Indoctrination Theory.

Zevox

[Morty]

Well, I saved the Collector base this time. I still got to tell the Illusive Man to shut up because he's not the boss of me, so that felt good. Still, I don't like how everyone tells me "Gee, that was a bad idea". It's like the writers give us a choice and immediately declare one of the options bad and foolish.

[Avilan the Grey]

Here is where I come down differently from many in this thread. The galaxy is big, very very big. Even if 10% of its population dies off (which would certainly be in the billions) I don't think that leads to a dark age

My point exactly, although I can go as high as 25% as stated above.

[Zevox]

Well, I saved the Collector base this time. I still got to tell the Illusive Man to shut up because he's not the boss of me, so that felt good. Still, I don't like how everyone tells me "Gee, that was a bad idea". It's like the writers give us a choice and immediately declare one of the options bad and foolish.

Seems to me like it's just having the characters react realistically. Because, really, you just gave Cerberus the Collector Base. Aside from maybe Miranda if you haven't won her over yet, who on your crew is going to think that's a good idea?

Zevox

[Aotrs Commander]

If that turns out to be the case, my opinion of them will drop tremendously. That would be utterly, inexcusably awful. To make a mistake is one thing, and one I'm more than willing to excuse, especially given their track record. To deliberately make something this nonsensical for the ending to your huge, three-game story, no matter the motive, would be something I could not excuse.

Especially if they use the Indoctrination Theory - whether they were taking it from the fans or had it in mind all along, it's a horrible idea, worse than what we've got as a story and still completely nonsensical in so many ways.

I cannot think of an ending that would otherwise been more of a perfect storm of utter crap than what we have already been given. So I'm biased because I so loathe the ending on Every. Single. Level. as it currently stands, I'm quite happy to grasp at straws.

(Also, my positive thoughts only apply if they've actually gone all the way and are being extremely strategic with the truth and outright lying about the content, and in fact there is some stuff after (if) Shepard wakes up back on Earth.)

Still, as I say the only reason I can see for doing it this way (aside from coming off a kind of a jerk) would be if it allowed them to tweak EA's nose on the release date. As I said, I've heard somewhere that EA reputedly wanted them to release it early (they wanted a summer release), and if this was planned all along (initially as just a segment in the game), they may have slapped together the current ending and gone "oh whoops. Sorry EA, we bogged that up, we better fix it. Fix will be ready by summer. *snerk*" Giving them time to do the "proper" ending.

Yes. Grasping at straws, but hope springs eternal, right...?!

Also, I just like the idea of ludicrously over-complicated mastermind schemes that fool everyone.

And, as I said, it's exactly what I would have done...

...

Have I mentioned how much I despise the ending?

At this point though I'm pretty confident that's not the case. If they had this prepared in advance they'd be ready to release the DLC sooner. If this were planned from the start I don't believe they'd be lying about it now, since it would serve just to continue to tick off fans who like the Indoctrination Theory.

Zevox

Oh, I don't think it's at all likely either. (For a kick-off, even here, with all the dislike for the ending, no-one apart from me seems to like the idea, showing how risky it would be to do it.) But I'm going to clutch at the faint hope since there is microscopically more chance of that than getting Blasto DLC, and one has to live in hope sometimes...

[Morty]

Seems to me like it's just having the characters react realistically. Because, really, you just gave Cerberus the Collector Base. Aside from maybe Miranda if you haven't won her over yet, who on your crew is going to think that's a good idea?

Zevox

Well then, maybe they ought to have made the Renegade choice something less obviously "WTB Shep?" and instead something some teammates can approve of.

[Anarion]

Well then, maybe they ought to have made the Renegade choice something less obviously "WTB Shep?" and instead something some teammates can approve of.

Why? It's called renegade for a reason. Your squad still goes along with it and is willing to continue working with Shephard after that because they respect him/her as someone who gets the job done no matter what. Doesn't mean they have to like it.

[TheLaughingMan]

My point exactly, although I can go as high as 25% as stated above.

That's still a ton of people. I don't care if the galaxy will bounce back, you still have the blood of millions of people on your hands.
And no one cares.

[Avilan the Grey]

That's still a ton of people. I don't care if the galaxy will bounce back, you still have the blood of millions of people on your hands.

The easiest way I can reply to this is:

?????????????????????????????????????

(Translation: I don't understand how the blood all the dead people the Reaper's are responsible for are on my hands?)

[VanBuren]

That's still a ton of people. I don't care if the galaxy will bounce back, you still have the blood of millions of people on your hands.
And no one cares.

There is no option where you aren't dealing with some kind of negative implications. That's just the unfortunate nature of war. All those same people would have died if the Reapers had won, Shepard just minimizes the casualties in that case.

[Derthric]

The easiest way I can reply to this is:

?????????????????????????????????????

(Translation: I don't understand how the blood all the dead people the Reaper's are responsible for are on my hands?)

There is no option where you aren't dealing with some kind of negative implications. That's just the unfortunate nature of war. All those same people would have died if the Reapers had won, Shepard just minimizes the casualties in that case.

Its more about the lives lost through the destruction of the relays than at the direct hands of the reapers. Its hard to feel triumphant or heroic when you just set the galaxy back. The previous two games didn't really push this feeling, Arrival did, but at the end of 1 and 2 you see Shepard Triumphant.

The concept of the cold calculus of war and the sacrifices needed is fine when handled well. The way the final conflict is presented is not handled well and results in what feels like hollow and arbitrary sacrifices.

[Psyren]

But you still need to break down said frak-bots.

Quarian ships, Xen's fleet in particular, are floating R&D labs (think the Alarei.) Even if no other ships in the army have the necessary facilities (which I doubt), theirs do. And the Geth would likely be able to help as well, working in total vacuum if necessary.

Then of course wehave the question about weather or not the reapers stick around in Control or Synthesis? I am pretty sure Shepard gets one order to send out, in Control, and I feel safe in saying that the order is more than likely "F*** OFF". And I doubt they will like people ripping them open to pillage eezo and parts in Synthesis.

You make assumptions like this and then claim I'm ascribing motives to you Where on earth are you getting "one order" from? Isn't that assuming the worst case scenario just to support the doomsday theory? The details of Control are not specified anywhere. Under blue and green, we see them leave the planet, not the galaxy.

Harvesting the entire prothean empire took a century an empire that spanned the entire Galaxy and represented hundreds of worlds.

Yeah, but they didn't harvest the worlds one at a time either.
Without knowing how long it took them to bleed one planet dry, further speculation on Earth's condition is pointless.

And Anderson's Resistance + all the civilians still alive were eating somehow.

And the Reapers went out of their way to destroy industry everywhere in the galaxy. Why would they leave any type of industry on Earth untouched?

Because they were only there a few days, and fighting a resistance force to boot?

No we have Earth which has been blasted to hell and back that can't just start up it's agriculture with a snap of fingers.

You're assuming all its agriculture stopped.
Again, defaulting to the worst-case scenario without evidence.

Nobody really can't be taken to mean that an entire race doesn't starve. It's a completely wrong use of language. You don't look at a disaster area and say nobody starved because there are enough people alive at the end to rebuild.

There is using language, and there is splitting hairs. This isn't a RAW discussion - this is deciphering a tweet. I see no reason to agree with your interpretation.

As was stated above, her statement could easily be limited to Garrus and Tali, the dextro squadmates being asked about.