Kilkil: Replacement Kobold

[thepsyker]

Rich doesn't care about the rules beyond the basics. If he wants to give a kobold wings, he doesn't need to make sure he has Feat A so he can get Feat B, he just gives him wings.

Of course Rich can do whatever he wants, but people are asking why anyone would think that Kilkil is anything other than a low level expert and the rules surrounding the wings are a reason one might expect that Kilkil is not a "low level" expert, although he might still just be an expert.

[KillianHawkeye]

Of course Rich can do whatever he wants, but people are asking why anyone would think that Kilkil is anything other than a low level expert and the rules surrounding the wings are a reason one might expect that Kilkil is not a "low level" expert, although he might still just be an expert.

And I'm saying that the fact the kobold has wings is not necessarily indicative of being a certain level in Rich's world.

[thepsyker]

And I'm saying that the fact the kobold has wings is not necessarily indicative of being a certain level in Rich's world.

If Rich decides to ignore the rules, so far we have nothing to indicate that he is doing so in this case. Thus it is a perfectly fair argument to point to the rules as a reason why Kilkil might be more than just a low level expert. Heck maybe Rich will decide to ignore the rules and Kilkil will intact be a low level expert that can cast finger of death as an epic level caster at will because all winged kobold's in Rich's world can do that, but we have no indication that Rich is going to ignore the rules in that fashion. By the rules for Kilkil to fly the way he has been shown to he has to be around 12th level, maybe Rich will ignore those rules, but I have yet to see any reason why we should think he is doing so. Either way it is a reason why people might think Kilkil is not just a low level expert.

[Fenice]

If Rich decides to ignore the rules,

Why should he be ignoring the rules, if the kobold turns out to be a low level expert?

He could be a 1st level expert kobold with the winged template. Which is perfectly fine by the rules. Races of the Dragon does in fact mention the existance of a subrace of winged kobolds, known as irsvern.

[The_Weirdo]

Archivist would be great, divine caster, and those built in buffs of knowing your enemies, but none of the order would be the type for the dark secerets to come in... if on the other hand the IFF or Team evil show up...

Yeah, it's not like Haley has a secret "not even V knows" or V leased his soul to fiends and accidentally killed the Draketooth family.

[thepsyker]

Why should he be ignoring the rules, if the kobold turns out to be a low level expert?

He could be a 1st level expert kobold with the winged template. Which is perfectly fine by the rules. Races of the Dragon does in fact mention the existance of a subrace of winged kobolds, known as irsvern.

What book is that template in? I'll admit I'm not an expert on 3.5 and could easily have missed that, but when i tried googling that template all I found was this, which seems to be a homebrewed rule. Obviously though if that isn't the case then I was saying that because i was unaware of the existence of that template and am in fact simply wrong.

As for the irstvern if memory serves aren't they setting specific to Eberon and even than isn't their existence described as as something to the effect of being rumored or theoretical?

[Blisstake]

If Rich decides to ignore the rules, so far we have nothing to indicate that he is doing so in this case.

Beside, perhaps, the fact that he's explicitly stated he doesn't care about making sure everything in the comic is 3.5 accurate. I'd be willing to wager that Kilkil is simply a kobold with wings, without feat choice or templates even being an issue.

Also, I doubt Kilkil would end up being some obscure class like Archivist or Factotum. That would require unnecesary explaination for readers unfamiliar with them.

[thepsyker]

Beside, perhaps, the fact that he's explicitly stated he doesn't care about making sure everything in the comic is 3.5 accurate. I'd be willing to wager that Kilkil is simply a kobold with wings, without feat choice or templates even being an issue.

Also, I doubt Kilkil would end up being some obscure class like Archivist or Factotum. That would require unnecesary explaination for readers unfamiliar with them.

The fact that Rich says he doesn't care about making everything 3.5 accurate isn't evidence in itself that something isn't 3.5 accurate. Rich could have just given Kilkil wings for the heck of it or he could have given Kilkil wings as a way of indicating he is more than just your run of the mill kobold, which would happily enough fit with the 3.5 rules that would require Kilkil to be of roughly the same level as the order whatever his actual class.

None the less that is rather beside my point. I was responding to the claim that we have no reason to think that Kilkil was anything other than a low level expert, by pointing out that following the rules he would need to be mid-level meaning there is a reason to think he might be something other than a low level expert. I even recognized that the Giant might ignore that reason in my post, but none the less the reason exists.

I would raise the question though as to what reason we have to think that Kilkil is just a low level expert? It seems to be based entirely on the fact that we haven't seen him do anything that indicates he isn't a low level expert, however the absence of evidence that he is not a low level expert is not in and of itself evidence that he is a low level expert.

[Fenice]

but when i tried googling that template all I found was this, which seems to be a homebrewed rule.

No, it's an official template. You can find it in Savage Species.

As for the irstvern if memory serves aren't they setting specific to Eberon and even than isn't their existence described as as something to the effect of being rumored or theoretical?

Yes. This doesn't mean the setting of OotS can't have its own subrace, does it? Probably with another name. Afterall, if I'm not mistaken, the Giant contributed to write one of the Eberron setting handbooks.
And the deathless Ghost-Martyrs were already "homebrewed" from another setting.

[hamishspence]

And the deathless Ghost-Martyrs were already "homebrewed" from another setting.

Or possibly BoED, given BoVD has already made an appearance.

[mrmcfatty]

It might be possible that Kilkil is a monk, hence the reason there is no apparent weapon (although if i remember correctly rich said somewhere,i want to say SSaDT, he either didnt like them or they were overrated so this most likely isnt the case)

Someone mentioned earlier about him being a mathematician so he can pinpoint weaknesses possibly, i was thinking that there was a class that did something similar to this. The only thing that i seem to be able to find is the assassins death attack which can be used to paralyze an opponent if you wish it to, which would be one way to pinpoint a weakness.

I just thought there was one that focused more on things like submission-like moves, disarms, hitting vital areas to lower damage or speed. if not then that would be something i would be interested in creating :)

[Marlowe]

Why are people treating "no visible weapons" as a significant datum? The same applies to Tarquin, Durkon, Elan and Belkar.

Most one-handed weapons in OOTS are not visible until they are drawn. So..not drawn until they are. It's a little unusual that Nale's longsword can be seen in 847.

[Finagle]

Durkon only has his shield showing because that's the stick figure style, too much trouble to draw the hammer in there. Tarquin doesn't carry a weapon. He keeps his axe in storage and only has a dagger for personal protection. He's a general, not a frontline soldier. Elan is special because he's the protagonist. Belkar keeps his daggers in the same place as Tarquin, concealed because they're small enough. I don't want to turn this discussion around because characters can whip out weapons for reasons of plot, but otherwise the comic is remarkably consistent in drawing the characters with their appropriate weapons.

Kilkil's class seems to be Factotum. This would make sense as the author invented the class, and seems keen to show off what one would do in "real life". How would a high-level Factotum apply his skills in a fight such as the one the LG just started? He already advised Tarquin on an important matter of damage probability.

[hamishspence]

Kilkil's class seems to be Factotum. This would make sense as the author invented the class, and seems keen to show off what one would do in "real life".

Afraid not:

The factotum was all Jason

[Gift Jeraff]

Whatever he is, he probably can't heal (or at least heal that often/well), seeing as how he brought "Nale" to the chapel for healing.

I also think it's worth noting that his scales are significantly darker than every kobold we've seen. So I think he's a dragonwrought kobold or something like that with red dragon heritage, but probably with NPC class levels.

[ti'esar]

Why are we assuming he isn't a caster (or at least a 'normal' caster class)?

[KillianHawkeye]

Why are we assuming he isn't a caster (or at least a 'normal' caster class)?

Because he hasn't done any magic yet.

[Cirin]

Between strips #629 and #630, hundreds of theories were posted on this board about how Vaarsuvius' mate was going to kick the dragon's ass.

People also came up with wild speculation that Girard Draketooth was related to the Black Dragon, and that was called ridiculous.

Of course, that is the main example of a wild theory that actually panned out.

Personally, if Kilkil has PC class levels, I'm going with Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple.

9th level Dragon Disciple is a way, right there in the core rules, to get dragon wings, without going to funky splats.

He doesn't seem like much of a spellcaster though, and for D. Disciple you only need any spontaneous arcane casting & be able to Speak Draconic and have 8 ranks in Knowledge Arcana. He Might be Expert 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 9. Pretty weak, but it would account for everything he's got, especially if his Sorcerer spells were not combat oriented (Identify and Comprehend Languages for his 1st level spells, Dragon Disciple gives extra spell slots but not continued casting and spells known).

[ti'esar]

Because he hasn't done any magic yet.

He hasn't done much of anything yet, though.

[Finagle]

Why are we assuming he isn't a caster (or at least a 'normal' caster class)?

Because the Linear Guild already has three spellcasters. Besides, Evil Opposite theme, I'm not seeing it! Remember Kilkil is Belkar's opposite.

[Steward]

Because the Linear Guild already has three spellcasters. Besides, Evil Opposite theme, I'm not seeing it! Remember Kilkil is Belkar's opposite.

Technically, Belkar is a divine spellcaster. Technically.

[ti'esar]

Because the Linear Guild already has three spellcasters. Besides, Evil Opposite theme, I'm not seeing it! Remember Kilkil is Belkar's opposite.

Depends on how you look at it: intellectual, bureaucratic kobold caster against unintellectual, instinctive halfling melee-monster looks like a decent opposite match-up to me.

I don't particularly think Kilkil is a caster, but I'm not sure why people seem to have dismissed it entirely.

[Marlowe]

Durkon only has his shield showing because that's the stick figure style, too much trouble to draw the hammer in there. Tarquin doesn't carry a weapon. He keeps his axe in storage and only has a dagger for personal protection. He's a general, not a frontline soldier. Elan is special because he's the protagonist. Belkar keeps his daggers in the same place as Tarquin, concealed because they're small enough. I don't want to turn this discussion around because characters can whip out weapons for reasons of plot, but otherwise the comic is remarkably consistent in drawing the characters with their appropriate weapons.

.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Tarquin currently IS heading into battle, and yet we don't see his axe. Being a protagonist has nothing to do with anything. Haley is presumably carrying Crystal's kukri and we're not seeing it all the time. A whole mass of minor other characters have not had their weapons visible until they drew.

Again, Kilkil (or any other character) being drawn with no visible weapons doesn't mean anything other than that he's not using a polearm.

Factotum would be an excellent choice considering obvious prime attribute and his job, trouble is Rich doesn't generally use non-core material for anything other than brief gags. Yokyok (Swashbuckler, presumably) is a counter-example, but he very nearly falls into "brief gag" himself. Plus could easily have been a Fighter/Duelist instead, and thus core.

Did we ever figure out what class the Dwarven hitman (the one who hangs out with the unperceptive shadowdancer) belonged to?

[Blisstake]

I would raise the question though as to what reason we have to think that Kilkil is just a low level expert? It seems to be based entirely on the fact that we haven't seen him do anything that indicates he isn't a low level expert, however the absence of evidence that he is not a low level expert is not in and of itself evidence that he is a low level expert.

Nothing really. If him fighting is important to the plot, however, then I highly doubt he's going to be some obscure class that could confuse readers (such as the factotum or archivist) and require some amount of explanation, when he could simply be an expert, rogue, or fighter or something. Personally, I think he's an expert because it's funny. They're bringing along a kobold whose only powers are statistical analysis and bookeeping. I can't claim he is for sure, and quite frankly, I couldn't care less what is the most likely. We'll find out when we find out, or we won't at all.

The only thing I was trying to say, however, was he could just have wings because the author had an idea for a flying kobold. It doesn't need to go into proper feat or template application in order to justify having one.

[Marlowe]

How "obscure" are the Factotum and Archivist exactly?

[ti'esar]

How "obscure" are the Factotum and Archivist exactly?

Well, speaking personally as someone who's played 3e D&D, but not regularly and not as an expert, all I know about them that I don't have to look up is what sourcebooks they come from.

[Steward]

How "obscure" are the Factotum and Archivist exactly?

Most of the other classes and races seen in this comic are either made up or found via the d20srd. The Factotum and the Archivist aren't obscure in the sense that they are completely unknown but information about them isn't in the SRD.

[Marlowe]

And as I previously stated, not being in the SRD is a mark against the likelihood of him being one of chose classes, but I don't think it's a conclusive one. We've had Ninjas in the strip almost from the beginning, a Warlock and a Soulknife were present at the tavern brawl, and there's still the debatable status of Yokyok. I wouldn't say they're terribly obscure either. They are popular classes, more so than Bard, if I had to make a guess.

[ti'esar]

We have no reason to believe that the ninjas were actually classed as ninjas, though - they could easily have been some combination of rogue/fighter/assassin that were flavored as ninjas, much as Miko did not have any samurai class. And the others have all been relatively minor characters - Kilkil isn't that important, but he has been around for a while, so I'd say he's important enough that the odds are against him having an "obscure" class.

[Marlowe]

Fair enough. We're liking the Factotum/Archivist theory here because both terms describe aspects of his job, so him being either of them would be a nice joke.

The "low-level expert" theory has a glaring hole in it. Why would both Tarquin and Nale be so pleased about bringing a low level NPC into a hunt for some level 13-15 PCs? Nale's used a low-level PC against the OOTS before (Pompey) but he's since recognized it as a mistake.

A lot depends on Nale and Tarquin. Are they really the sort of people who would pointlessly endanger a useful, allied non-combatant for the sake of a running gag? Well,yes. When doing so would actively reduce their own chances of success compared with many other possible options? Well, still possibly yes for Nale. But Tarquin? The person who would know more about Kilkil's abilities than anyone else?

I think that Tarquin bought Kilkil along for a reason beyond a single punchline, and that Kilkil is more than he seems.