Sinfest

[MReav]

Anyone else read Sinfest? I used to like it, but I feel it's recently taken a very sharp turn lately.

On the one hand, wanting to get out a message may be a noble goal, but I feel by literally demonizing his opposition with very little of the humour that punctuated the previous strips, the author is not going to turn nearly as many heads as he'd like and risks alienating potential newcomers. There's writing a story with an important message, and then there's writing something that comes across as a propaganda piece.

[Totally Guy]

I remember reading Sinfest way back in 2001!

[Half-Orc Rage]

Yeah, the strip used to have a tone of light parody. They brought in feminists and it just got preachy. You could make fun of Christians, Uncle Sam, Obama, etc. but not the feminists.

[Gez]

Yeah, Tat has become preachy like a new convert, eager to prove how dedicated to the cause he is, and rejecting his past. A born-again radical feminist.

It's a shame because the character dynamics he had set before were very endearing. Fuchsia and Criminy, the story time zombie, Red, Li'l E, etc. They had some nice development, but it's pushed aside for the sake of making a gang of midgets in tricycle seem like ultimate badasses as well as saviors of humanity. Sorry, huwomanity. Men are pigs.

(I don't know if he realizes the irony in using a Matrix parody to convey the "patriarchy bad" message, given the etymology of "matrix".)

[Mordokai]

I don't much care for the direction the comic is taking lately. Like said, trying to get the message across is all good and well, but Tat is just getting too preachy. I yearn for days of humor and of slapstick comedy. The gag-per-day Sinfest, if you will.

It's all the more shame because he has proven he can tell good story. Fuschia and Criminy, for example. But the little bitches on tricyles just annoy me to no end. Especially Glossy, as she was dubbed on Sinfest forums. I don't think her holier-than-thou attitude is doing anybody any good.

Granted, it took almost eight years(I'm talking from memory here, could be less) for Slick to grow and get some character development. But before he did, he was fun to read about. It was fun watching him walk around, a bag of stereotypes and failing spectaculary more often than not.

It is my undying hope that the patriarchy arch will turn out like this, sooner or later. That is, that Glossy and her posse will figure out what they are doing is wrong and turn their ways around and become more bearable. But as it is, it came to the point that I groan inwardly and outwardly every time I see any of them show up.

My biggest beef with this new Sinfest is the demonization of Squigley, my favourite character. He is supposed to be a pig, in every sense of the word. And he was, down to the T. But he was also always a good guy, if somewhat inept. And now... he just became a scratching post, a butt of jokes. And I don't like seeing that one bit.

[Maryring]

I disagree.

It takes a lot of guts to radically alter your writing the way he has. For a comic that earned its popularity on making women skanks and men into pigs, it's an interesting development into what actually happens when you take the earlier humour and play it straight to its end.

He is a skilled story-teller, and I have complete faith that once the entire arc is done, it will wrap up in an excellent manner. Besides, the patriarchy arc isn't about Trikey. It's about Nique and Squig. Especially Squig. This looks to shape up into an arc to give him actual character development through forced introspection.

[MReav]

Guts is one thing, but this storyline is both intrusive as something like half the strips are focusing on it, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere (at least, relative to the sheer number of strips focusing on it). It's just them being preachy and one-sided while demonizing the opposition, over and over again.

And even if the Patriarchy storyline isn't about Trike Girl, she is certainly the face of it, because she's in every other strip at this point.

[Lvl45DM!]

When I got into Sinfest I enjoyed Slick cos he reminded me of a grown up Calvin. And like Calvin who acted stupid but was actually intelligent, Slick acted like a perv but actually had deep respect for women both in terms of what they do for him and what he can do for them, a dynamic often ignored, and in fact now totally ignored by the same comic. I always thought Slick was a much deeper character than on the surface.

But the main problem is with how the strip is portraying feminism as the most important thing in the world. Seriously remember when Slick first got that demon side? and it blew the gates of paradise apart and burned to flying horses and stuff? Really dark evil symbolic actions. And now all it does is leer at women cos the ultimate expression of evil is misogyny apparently. Not even the worst kind of misogyny of active oppression but just leering.

I have no problem with feminism. Misogyny is a massive problem even today. Some of the feminism comics have been beautiful and genius. But the biggest problem is making feminism the central issue in a world where the devil is a literal being who randomly sets people on fire. Its just...overplaying it. And Devil's archnemesis is a munchkin on a trike? And he can't just set her on fire because....? its just, augh!

And I really do object to his presentation of porn as a uniformly evil phenomenon, and only about the degradation of women. Its misinformed, hateful and wrong. ESPECIALLY how he presents the BDSM culture.

The biggest shame is i only got into the strip a few months ago. And now I'm already leaving it behind.

[slayerx]

Ya i have grown really, really annoyed with the radical feminism; it just feels like he's hammering in the message, it comes off as preachy. The biggest problem however is the fact that it is almost NEVER funny, interesting, clever, or endearing. Nearly every single feminist strip feels the same; In rare cases we might get something kinda funny like Squig finding compromise by becoming a "radical" feminist, or sometimes clever and interesting like Sam cheating on liberty with porn which works as a double commentary on american foriegn policy, but 95% its the same old message; "Feminists are bad ass, fight the patriarchy". It. got. old... I mean really, i would be more than happy to welcome this new turn in the strip if Tat could actually use it to make good jokes or many more of those interesting strips... Take for instance Jesus and the angel duo; They don't just show up to hammer in some obvious message that "Good is badass, Evil is not"; They are able to be used in very fun ways and can get in a lot of great laughs. THAT's the biggest problem with this new turn... its not the message, its that he doesn't actually have any fun with it like he does with everything else

[MReav]

I'm reminded of Zero Punctuation's webcomics review. Obviously, the tonal whiplash isn't nearly as bad as Ctrl-Alt-Del, but statements like "serious storyline", "established as wacky humour comic", "awkward tonal shift", and "mean-spirited, embittered... jerks... calling you out on it" ring true.

Someone else on another forum made the initial reference, but I agree with it.

[Gez]

The thing is, it is possible for a male cartoonist to make funny and relevant comics about feminism and misogynists. For example, David Willis of Shortpacked!.

The differences which explain why it's funny in SP and not in SF?
- Uses existing characters who are not entirely defined by being a mouthpiece for feminism (usually Amber)
- The misogynists aren't literally demons from hell, just average jerks, the kind of which everyone has met (I've yet to meet a horned, forked-tailed demon bouncer)
- The message reflects current situation instead of being stuck in the 60s-to-80s.

[Domochevsky]

The thing is, it is possible for a male cartoonist to make funny and relevant comics about feminism and misogynists. For example, David Willis of Shortpacked!.

The differences which explain why it's funny in SP and not in SF?
- Uses existing characters who are not entirely defined by being a mouthpiece for feminism (usually Amber)
- The misogynists aren't literally demons from hell, just average jerks, the kind of which everyone has met (I've yet to meet a horned, forked-tailed demon bouncer)
- The message reflects current situation instead of being stuck in the 60s-to-80s.

That's funny, hm? Alright then.

[Mono Vertigo]

On the one hand, yes, there has been a LOT of unexpected feminism recently, and I'm missing the truly funny/endearing parts.
On the other hand... I've met RL feminists who were so much more aggressive and radical that Sinfest looks absolutely tame and good-spirited in comparison.
So I'm sticking around to see where it'll go.
*shrugs*

[Mordokai]

I disagree.

It takes a lot of guts to radically alter your writing the way he has. For a comic that earned its popularity on making women skanks and men into pigs, it's an interesting development into what actually happens when you take the earlier humour and play it straight to its end.

He is a skilled story-teller, and I have complete faith that once the entire arc is done, it will wrap up in an excellent manner. Besides, the patriarchy arc isn't about Trikey. It's about Nique and Squig. Especially Squig. This looks to shape up into an arc to give him actual character development through forced introspection.

He did a good story before and it was never preachy. This one is. And that makes it boring it my eyes. Also, annoying, since it's protagonists are annoying. You say it's not about Glossy? Then why is she the focus of more than half the comics that come out as of late? And the half of the other half is focused on her posse. To me, that's pretty clear cut favoritism.

And I would almost buy the argument that this is about Nique and Squig. If it wasn't for the aforementioned focus on the annoying little runts, who don't even deserve to be named. And the fact that one of the characters has already been changed(I'm talking about Fyoosh, just to be clear) and it was endearing and fun to read. This? This is not. And what you call forced introspective is similar to nail pulling to me, something that wouldn't learn you, well... anything.

And like it has been mentioned, the demonization of porn... yeah, I guess it can be bad. But not this bad, for christ's sake!

[Gez]

And like it has been mentioned, the demonization of porn... yeah, I guess it can be bad. But not this bad, for christ's sake!

Not just porn, but sexual attraction in general. It's represented by a horned, tailed heart.

[SaintRidley]

I feel like Tat's using the comic as a sounding board for some major changes in worldview that he's undergone recently.

I see 'Nique, Squigley, and Slick navigating different aspects of the issue. 'Nique is exploring the nature of femininity and womanhood, what it means to be sexy without objectifying herself. Slick and Squigley are navigating different paths around the patriarchy, what it means to men and women, and how to best adjust to the reality that they now see. Slick's trouble is largely in learning how to express himself to women (when has it not been?) in a way that does not further the binary. And Squigley is such an everyman. He's basically good, and he wants to do right, but it's hard to separate what you've always been told from what should be. Conscience is formed by culture, and little is harder than trying to change conscience.

I don't see eye to eye with everything Tat's trying out here, like the 100% anti-porn stance, but I don't think this is hurting the comic overall. I like Glossy (that's what we're calling her, right?) and her attitude as seen when she hit the Reality Zone today. Pitch perfect right there. And I love the Matrix metaphor for the patriarchy. It's great for illustrating just how the patriarchy functions, how pervasive it is, and how hard it is to rebel against.

I'm still on board with the comic.

[Somebloke]

I liked the characters and I really dug the patriarchy joke...the first ten times. It isn't so much that the new direction is bad- it's not- it's that the rest of the series is suffering as s result. I enjoy Glossy and I appreciate the changes that the writer is going through- I agree with a great deal of what he says- but I also miss the earlier themes.

Basically, my issue with modern feminism is that it leaves less time for Criminy and Fuschia. That's not a metaphor, either.

However, I am still very much a fan of his work and will continue to visit his site. The man deserves his artistic integrity.

[Tono]

I would actually forgive all the problems I have had with Sinfest recently if this latest type of strips lead into and Matriarchy thing again. Having the tykes go too far down the path in vengence, etc etc.

[Maryring]

C'mon. Sinfest has ALWAYS played porn to be demonic, and placed lust and love in opposition to one another. This isn't something new.

Furthermore people were saying that Fuschia and Criminy were gonna get stuck in some transient limbo forever as well, and it took a long time, but we got some of the best strips out of that storyline as well.

The way it seems to me, Trikegirl and her posse are to feminism what Seymour is to Christianity. Something that can be very positive, but also blinding when taken to its extreme.

Trikey is an idea. Nique, Squig and the others are the actual people trying to make sense of and understand ideas and how they relate to them personally, how it should relate to them. This strip is a good example of that

[slayerx]

C'mon. Sinfest has ALWAYS played porn to be demonic, and placed lust and love in opposition to one another. This isn't something new.

Except that its no longer funny. Before it was like "Porn is bad, Ha ha" now its more like "Porn is bad, and you should feel bad"... Sure sometimes the strips are funny, but now it feels a bit more lecture than fun.

The way it seems to me, Trikegirl and her posse are to feminism what Seymour is to Christianity. Something that can be very positive, but also blinding when taken to its extreme.

Not really because glossy is never really presented as funny and absurd. I mean just look at the last seymour strip. Tat uses seymour as a way to play up an extreme form of what some Christians believe to poke fun at Christianity; There's plenty of Humor to be found. But not Glossy and feminism. Glossy is presented as always being cool and on the right side of things, feminism is always presented as a positive and its almost never poked fun at; especially not through glossy, if glossy shows up you KNOW its about to show how feminism is cool. "blinding when taken to its extreme" is only bad when the extreme is expressed as being bad; There is nothing harmful about glossy's take on feminism and its a movement that it seems as though we are supposed to support, where as we are not expected to support seymour's take on Christianity because his extremist beliefs are rather harmful.

Frankly, this whole feminist phase of Tat's would be a lot more fun if Glossy WAS more of an absurd and funny exaggeration like seymour; use her for the jokes about feminism and poke fun at it while using Nique to display a more genuine message similar to how Jesus is used for more genuine messages on christians to counter seymour's exaggerated take on it

I'm still on board with the comic.

Yes, when it comes down to ti, Tat DOES still make some funny and interesting strips... its just that his hit-or-miss ratio has shifted. In the past he made great strips like 95% of the time, now its more like 60% of the time. Its worth it to keep following Sinfest for those good strips, even though you have to deal with really dull and uninteresting feminist strips twice a week or so

[Winter_Wolf]

Hey I'm not alone. How 'bout that. Sinfest is really getting on my nerves lately. It seems less preachy and more, "I hate all of you, my previously loyal readers who have made me the success that I am today".

I like the new 'Nique. I like that Slick is a little more rounded out. Loved the Fyoosha (I can't spell!) and Crimminy storyline. Lil E is fun to read about. Even Seymour is funny. Crazy feminazi is not. And I really hate that word and loathe to use it, but there it is.

The radical feminism "Serious Message" bores me and actually kind of offends me. And I can't really point to a line that was crossed, but I'm starting to feel like Tatsuya has found a new baseball bat and is repeatedly trying to beat me over the head with it. It has become less, "oh boy what crazy stuff is happening this time" and more "Please, let this time actually be funny." It's a shame, because I don't really want to just drop Sinfest, but I'm pretty close to doing just that.

It's not fun anymore. Humon (SatW, Manala Next Door, etc.) is a self professed feminist, but she's still lighthearted and doesn't take herself too seriously. Tatsuya Ishida looks like he's a prime candidate to start talking about himself in the third person. (I find it irritating in general, and highly pretentious in anyone who didn't grow up with that as a cultural norm.)

[MReav]

It's not fun anymore. Humon (SatW, Manala Next Door, etc.) is a self professed feminist, but she's still lighthearted and doesn't take herself too seriously. Tatsuya Ishida looks like he's a prime candidate to start talking about himself in the third person. (I find it irritating in general, and highly pretentious in anyone who didn't grow up with that as a cultural norm.)

I think Tat should take a page from Bill Waterson. During his struggles with the Syndicate, he would often write his feelings about the goings on in his comics, but he never let it detract from the comic itself. He wouldn't always make things funny (one of his comic involving the discussion of dreams was done soon after the death of his cat, the major inspiration for Hobbes), but it never felt preachy and he would keep it in the spirit of his comic, instead of derailing it.

Even the comic regarding the dead raccoon was still done in character and didn't involve an invasive non-character mouthpiece.

[Mordokai]

I think Tat should take a page from Bill Waterson.

He really should, especially since he admitted Calvin&Hobbes being a big influence for Sinfest.

[Lvl45DM!]

Ok the last few strips have pushed it too far. 16th of August has the gay guy (no idea what his name is) ogling and perving on the devil bouncer, ie. EXACTLY WHAT SLICK THAT IS APPARENTLY SO EVIL, and even overtly hits on him in a sleazy way "do YOU ever strip?". Then he fantasizes about the bouncer right in front of him. This is the punchline so its supposed to be funny presumably. Even if it wasn't its not played anywhere near as bad as Slick or Squig, or even 'Nique's fanbase.

Then in the strip club we see a devil girl stripping and for three panels seems to be happy and enjoying herself. But after taking the money thrown on stage she clutches her coat to her like shes been violated and insults the people who just paid her.

This is just blatant favoritism to women here. He's gone from a funny interesting webcomic to a preachy one and the message he's preaching is one I find immoral.

[Shogo]

Sinfest. Usually pretty entertaining. Well, that used to be the case anyways. I have to agree that this Patriarchy arc is beyond overbearing and tedious.

It doesn't help that Trike Girl and Anti-Porn Girl are supremely unlikable. With APG, it's mainly that I don't like the suggestion that ALL porn, regardless of content or context, must be treated as the equivalent to a snuff film.

With TG, it's because one strip in particular makes it hard not to conclude her goal is to create feminazis. (Yeah. Yeah. I know it's a loaded term.)

Mostly because of the strip where she decided to convert devil girls by hurling a backpack of feminist literature onto the Devil's property. Specifically because 2 of the 3 shown books were Dworkin and the SCUM Manifesto. (Number 3 had a generic name.)

For those not in the know . . . Well . . . In the simplest terms possible. To get an idea of Dworkin's writing, you just need to look at Anti-Porn Girl.

SCUM? Well, SCUM basically preaches that every single problem that has ever plagued humanity is the fault of man. That the world would literally be perfect if it was just women. To the extent that it promotes gendercide.

Now, some people will say that it's nothing more than satire. Whether it is or not, there are still crazies that buy into it. (The ones deserving of the term "feminazi".)

The fact that she would, when trying to convert someone to feminism, LEAD with SCUM? That alone is reason enough for me to hate Trike Girl.

----------------------

So yeah. Right about now, I can only really tolerate Sinfest when it shifts back to Lil'E and that "innocent" devil girl he's been hanging out with.

Their comics have been quite pleasant.

[teratorn]

This is just blatant favoritism to women here.

And that would be wrong because...?

I like the «new» sinfest, I'm very curious to see what Tat is going to do with these storylines.

[SaintRidley]

Ok the last few strips have pushed it too far. 16th of August has the gay guy (no idea what his name is) ogling and perving on the devil bouncer, ie. EXACTLY WHAT SLICK THAT IS APPARENTLY SO EVIL, and even overtly hits on him in a sleazy way "do YOU ever strip?". Then he fantasizes about the bouncer right in front of him. This is the punchline so its supposed to be funny presumably. Even if it wasn't its not played anywhere near as bad as Slick or Squig, or even 'Nique's fanbase.

Yeah. It's totally not cool to show how absurd objectifying someone is by turning it around on someone who is not traditionally objectified.

Then in the strip club we see a devil girl stripping and for three panels seems to be happy and enjoying herself. But after taking the money thrown on stage she clutches her coat to her like shes been violated and insults the people who just paid her.

Protip for you. A lot of people work jobs they hate and have to put on a happy face about. Lots of waiters/waitresses do it, there are a number of teachers too, and amazingly enough strippers and other sex workers often enough hate what they do but have to put on a smile while they're doing it.

It's like people can do one thing and be thinking the opposite. A crazy world, where nothing has meaning anymore!

[Lvl45DM!]

Yeah. It's totally not cool to show how absurd objectifying someone is by turning it around on someone who is not traditionally objectified.


Protip for you. A lot of people work jobs they hate and have to put on a happy face about. Lots of waiters/waitresses do it, there are a number of teachers too, and amazingly enough strippers and other sex workers often enough hate what they do but have to put on a smile while they're doing it.

It's like people can do one thing and be thinking the opposite. A crazy world, where nothing has meaning anymore!

1) If that was his point then he sold it terribly. The way to do that would be in some way show that the fabulous guy (still don't know his name) was being silly and wrong in the SAME way that he shows that its wrong on the other side. As written, it just shows that gays fantasizing about men who aren't gay right in front of them is ok morally, but fantasizing about women in front of them when they don't want it is evil.

2) Yeah I work in hospitality I get putting on a face. But she is a demon! In the words of Sabine "an incarnation of illicit sex" If it was a normal girl I wouldn't have a problem (beyond the fact its not funny) and if the previous strip didn't exist I wouldn't have a problem. But demons, till Tat's conversion, seemed to enjoy their role generally, Fyoosh being the very rare exception which came about through the intervention of Crimminy. Blue still seems to enjoy her role. Why does this new demon girl hate it? Does she have a Criminy? If that is revealed I will retract my objection but as it stands we have a blatant imbalance here.

You have approached my points as if they were separate. They are not. Either one of these strips stands alone as a critique of the status quo. They aren't funny but they have a message. ALONE. But together they add up to something different which I find immoral.

I get promoting feminism by demonizing male sexualization of women. I get promoting feminism by showing what its like if this sexualization was applied to men and was OK. But doing both just makes it like "The way we treat women is wrong, but if we treated men this way is ok".

The answer to a Patriarchy is not a Matriarchy. That is equally wrong. Up until these strips i never got any of the stereotyped 'feminazi' vibe from the girls in that they had misandrist leanings. They weren't funny, they were preachy and boring but they weren't wrong.

[Lvl45DM!]

And that would be wrong because...?

I like the «new» sinfest, I'm very curious to see what Tat is going to do with these storylines.

It flies in the face of the message he's trying to put out. Feminism should not be about women getting it better than men.

[Eldan]

And that would be wrong because...?

I like the «new» sinfest, I'm very curious to see what Tat is going to do with these storylines.

That's my problem, really. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I often look at Sinfest and think "Haven't I seen this exact same strip before? Several times?"

It's the same message, over and over.

Also, I have finally found out why I find these feminists so unlikeable as characters. They don't have a personality. First of all, they don't have facial expressions. Their mouths are invisible most of the time, and their sun glasses cover half their faces. It turns them into faceless entities, like Matrix agents or Stormtroopers.
And, to take this even further: they only have one character trait. Every older character in this comic has several aspects about him. None of them is one-dimensional. But we never see Trike Girl in her off-time, not being a rebel.