LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

[golentan]

There tends to be a larger amount of MtF transsexuals than FtM. Most of them that I know are actually along the lines of the girls who claim to be such for sex appeal, or popularity, or the shock of being different.

Okay, I have to admit this is really starting to bother me. You keep making sweeping values judgements on other people in your school and their right to self identify, which I think runs the risk of veering into erasure/denial. And the misanthropy involved is not particularly becoming.

[Triscuitable]

Okay, I have to admit this is really starting to bother me. You keep making sweeping values judgements on other people in your school and their right to self identify, which I think runs the risk of veering into erasure/denial. And the misanthropy involved is not particularly becoming.

Take a step into my school. You'll see that it's a popularity race, where guys gawk over girls, girls avoid guys, and claims are made to keep hormones at bay.

Even my friend, who is genuinely a lesbian, hates these girls on Tumblr who claim to be FtM, just because it's "in". It really is a fad in Washington, Golentan. It may not be where you are, but this is a super-liberal state.

[noparlpf]

Hi and thank you. Are there reasons here to make cis or trans distinctions? I saw an MtF button for sex but I didn't like it.

It's there for the people who want it, and it's not mandatory. I've seen plenty of trans folks on here use the icon for their gender, and others use the XtX ones.

[Laser Frog]

Hello uterus girl! Welcome to the thread! I'm Kender, and I'm a cis, bisexual, feminist woman. I'm the thread's Resident Feminist and Resident Period Expert. And by "expert", I mean I talk a lot.

as implying that you have some sort of uterus based superpower?

I'm that uh, uterus girl that Asta Kask invited here.

I was wondering about that uterus girl thing too. Sounds like the kind of superhero that's invented once the publisher has run out of ideas. Or if they feel really creative for some reason. *totally not designing the super-suit for that one*

Anyway, welcome AuroraF. I hope you like quirkiness, cuz there's plenty of it in this thread. So much that it's often hard to keep up with. Plenty of hugs to go around, too.

I'm Laser Frog, but you can call me any variation of that. Usually I keep thinking of myself as Froggy, so why not? I'm a gay (homoromantic but asexual) cis male, and I'm not even sure I've established an identity for myself here. Could be cuz I feel like I spend most of my time lurking, but meh.

You'll probably like it here.

Oo! I call the general that is in charge of morale. I can use my voice and my body.

Your feeble teenage efforts will not sway me.

[Lix Lorn]

Oo! I call the general that is in charge of morale. I can use my voice and my body.

You realise how that sounds, right?

Should we warn her about the drinks Lix hands out?

No. It is more funny to watch.

O_o
Really, you two are making me look worse than I am.

Speaking of the drinks (or anything else, really) Lix hands out, and their strange and varied effects, what effect would the standard '[item] of reverse [sex/gender but unfortunately not actually clear which]' (for purposes of simplicity, let's say a ring, the effects of which go away when it's taken off) have on trans*/genderfluid/androgynous people?

I'd say it'd work on sex, since that seems to be the intended effect.

[Triscuitable]

It's there for the people who want it, and it's not mandatory. I've seen plenty of trans folks on here use the icon for their gender, and others use the XtX ones.

I still want a bigender, blue/pink mixed icon. It'd be nice.

[noparlpf]

I still want a bigender, blue/pink mixed icon. It'd be nice.

I'm still just amused that blue is for boys and pink is for girls. But yeah, a genderqueer or bigender icon would be nice for genderqueer or bigender people who want gender icons.

[Triscuitable]

I'm still just amused that blue is for boys and pink is for girls. But yeah, a genderqueer or bigender icon would be nice for genderqueer or bigender people who want gender icons.

I'm noting that these are the colors the site uses for the male and female icons. Not conforming to a stereotype.

[Kindablue]

Take a step into my school. You'll see that it's a popularity race, where guys gawk over girls, girls avoid guys, and claims are made to keep hormones at bay.

Even my friend, who is genuinely a lesbian, hates these girls on Tumblr who claim to be FtM, just because it's "in". It really is a fad in Washington, Golentan. It may not be where you are, but this is a super-liberal state.

What makes your friend a genuine lesbian? At what point in your friendship with her did you decide that she's actually a lesbian, and did she get a little pin that she can wear on her lapel for that, to prove "this one's for real"? I'm really curious about this authentication process. I'd like to know more about it.

[Triscuitable]

What makes your friend a genuine lesbian? At what point in your friendship with her did you decide that she's actually a lesbian, and did she get a little pin that she can wear on her lapel for that, to prove "this one's for real"? I'm really curious about this authentication process. I'd like to know more about it.

Alright, don't get on my case. I used the wrong word.

A large portion (as in, way more than what's normal) of the students at this school claim to be LGBT, and as such, it's blown out of proportion. I'm not intolerant, and I'm not a homophobe, but I am very, very frustrated that this has become a fad for kids to be a part of.

"Hey, want to be popular? You should be bi, trans, or gay!"

My point is, this girl I've known for years. She avoided guys, avoided a lot of romance, and eventually found someone she really cared for.

A lot of these girls who claim to be FtM don't even try. They just say it's there, they don't say they have issues with how the appear, they don't dress a little differently, or ask to be called a man, etc. They just think it's fun to pretend, I suppose.

Here's another thing that I've mentioned before: none of the guys boast about their sexuality or gender identity. I know two guys at my school who are openly gay. But a girl I met? She presented herself as bisexual in a powerpoint presentation in front of a classrom, treating is as if it defined who she was.

Now that's another controversial statement. I for one don't like people defining themselves by their sexuality, as it paves way for stereotypes. I hate stereotypes, and I find them frustrating to deal with.

It also makes me think that most of these girls just like to make an impact on others, for added sex appeal. And that's where it all goes back to, isn't it? Sex.

I know that not everyone here views sex as I do. Maybe I vilify it because I haven't performed the act yet. Maybe I don't like it because it makes me uncomfortable. Maybe I don't like it because there's so much that can go wrong, and I always go to the worst possible scenario.

But these people treat it like it's the best thing ever. I do not like that at all.

That was a rant, I do not intend to be a bigot. I think a little differently from how you do, but not all my opinions reflect those of everyone.

[Socratov]

So... I hope I can get some advice here. My best friend, a long time crossplayer in the animecommunity, is currently writing this letter aoubt how he feels and how he is going trough a phase. I haven't had the letter, but I am promised to read it first as some sort of reality check.

Up until now i have been neutral/a bit supportive making some backhanded compliments like commenting how fabulous he looks with "cherry" nails and such, but now I fear i'll have to be frank and maybe a bit blunt. meawhile I'd like to stay supportive (especially more then I am now) and make sure he feels comfortable in his own home (he, I and 12 others are currently living in a student flat which can sometimes lead to some friction and awkward moemnts).

So my question is, how do I tactfully express my honest opinion on this letter without actually insulting or discomforting him? (Yes I know this letter might be less then I expect of it, I just want to be prepared if this is the bomb I imagine he's dropping). I mean this is a sensitive issue and I don't want to lose a dear friend...

[Mina Kobold]

Depends on what your honest opinion is, I'd think. ^_~

The best overall advice that I* can give is to look at whether the revealed phase does any potential harm to anyone. If not, then just try to help your friend succeed at what they wish to do. If they are happy, they are happy.

If it does potentially cause harm, then I presume you'd need to warn about that as tactfully as possible. I suggest in the style of "Great, but X might be an issue. Have you thought about Y?"

*Do remember that I am as far from an expert on social interaction or diplomacy as humanoidly possible. ^_^'

[Socratov]

thanks, tha is something I can use ( I think)
So, any pitfalls I must be aware of, proud peapole are easily offended (though friendship does help in softening the blows, but still...)?

[Kindablue]

Alright, don't get on my case. I used the wrong word.

A large portion (as in, way more than what's normal) of the students at this school claim to be LGBT, and as such, it's blown out of proportion. I'm not intolerant, and I'm not a homophobe, but I am very, very frustrated that this has become a fad for kids to be a part of.

"Hey, want to be popular? You should be bi, trans, or gay!"

My point is, this girl I've known for years. She avoided guys, avoided a lot of romance, and eventually found someone she really cared for.

A lot of these girls who claim to be FtM don't even try. They just say it's there, they don't say they have issues with how the appear, they don't dress a little differently, or ask to be called a man, etc. They just think it's fun to pretend, I suppose.

I, and just about everyone here, have an outsider's point of view on this. I don't go to your school and I can't really know what goes on there. When you caustically deride these "girls who claim to be FtM," you have to understand how that looks.

[Triscuitable]

I, and just about everyone here, have an outsider's point of view on this. I don't go to your school and I can't really know what goes on there. When you caustically deride these "girls who claim to be FtM," you have to understand how that looks.

I think that's the same way my parents describe it when I tell them a joke from a show I watched. I sympathize.

[Astrella]

There tends to be a larger amount of MtF transsexuals than FtM. Most of them that I know are actually along the lines of the girls who claim to be such for sex appeal, or popularity, or the shock of being different.

Actually numbers these days for youths are about the same. (Or at least they are in Belgium, I remember seeing some research on it, I'll see if I can find it.)

[Triscuitable]

The fact that you have to qualify this is discomforting.

Take a step into my head. It's full of discomfort.

Maybe you should stop thinking about what other people want to do with each other, sexually and gender expression wise. I think you might be confused bout your own gender because you spend so much time obsessing over other's, and trying to cram activities into things only one gender can do, as per your earlier posts.

I don't cram things into stuff one gender can do. I don't believe in stereotypes. I do have a very black and white scale of morality, and when people say the crude stuff they say, then I feel disgusted. I'm already trying to solve my own problems, but along comes romance, and suddenly I like girls (I'm 15, almost 16, and that's not normal), and suddenly I don't know who I am, and suddenly it outweighs school itself.

So, here you're saying these fake bisexual FtM guys are pretending to be male for sex? I assume you mean you think they are female and straight, in which case they'd be trying to attract males. Those, yknow, heterosexual males. Who love other males? Think about what you're saying.

They are either claiming to be one of the three. And the guys don't think the girls will go through with it, and the girls won't even go through with it, so I think neither side has enthusiasm.

Even if you don't intend to be a bigot, you still come across as one that wants to erase these males identities, and that's not okay.

~ ♅

As was said before, you've never been to the school. You've never seen it. People say "it's liberal, so there is automatically a larger LGBT population here than anywhere else" (how does that make sense?)

What angers me is how I can't even question how ridiculous it is without getting funny looks. I support everyone here, but I look at the people at my school, going about with this crap, the vile comments from men, the girls trying to be standouts, and the people who have to hide because this whole thing doesn't help the LGBT image at all.

It's really bad. You haven't seen it but it is really, really bad.

[Mono Vertigo]

Yeah, Triscuitable, I understand how the possibility of lying about their identity/orientation to make themselves look more interesting can be annoying, but as several others said, you don't know just how many are sincere.
It is also worrying that you complain so much about it when it doesn't negatively affect you directly (beside those specific issues I remember you talking about, which were, I'll sincerely admit, quite unfortunate).
If your estimation is completely correct, then I agree what these students are doing is not too good; consciously pretending to be someone you're not without being willing to deal with the consequences is bad, lying to others for high school popularity is bad, "reappropriating" identities that frequently get people in trouble is also bad. Problem is, nobody can tell if you're correct, or if you're overestimating the situation (and just how much you're overestimating, if that's the case). We can't police the identity and orientation of all the offenders just to reassure you. The best you can do is stop paying so much attention to it. Of course, I understand that's personally distressing, but what I mean is that you can't change it, it does not actively harm anyone, very few people feel offended, and more importantly, this is high school, a place that emphasizes all the worst traits in teenagers (and god knows how many they have, again, I've been there, and I was terrible in my own way); so I don't believe it is worth trying to fight that tendency, you could instead try to work on yourself.
I wish that situation was the worst thing I had to deal with at school.

[Triscuitable]

*snip* and more importantly, this is high school, a place that emphasizes all the worst traits in teenagers (and god knows how many they have, again, I've been there, and I was terrible in my own way);

... It never occurred to me that I was referring to high school. You bring up many points, all valid.

[Selpharia]

A lot of these girls who claim to be FtM don't even try. They just say it's there, they don't say they have issues with how the appear, they don't dress a little differently, or ask to be called a man, etc. They just think it's fun to pretend, I suppose.

Since Qaera's pretty well covered the rest of this already, I just want to ask a clarifying question.

So, how does this even come up with these girls, exactly? It seems odd to me that someone goes "Hi, I'm <name> and I'm trans/gay/whatever, and just leaves it at that. How does everyone else react to this?

Also, how can "these girls" really dress "differently?" Unless things have changed a lot since i was that age, girls can wear any type of clothes they like and have it be considered appropriate, barring a few very specific cases. Moreover, changing clothing gender is a difficult proposition. Men's clothing isn't made to accommodate the female form and vice-versa.

You do what seems to be a lot of good work promoting tolerance and understanding, but the hardest people to tolerate aren't those who are different than you, but those who act in contravention of your deepest held beliefs.

Lastly, because it's one of my favorite bits of writing, I'll just leave this here

Twilight of the Idols

Spoiler

Show

Reality shows us an enchanting abundance of types, a lavish profusion of forms in change and at play: and some worthless idiot of a moralist sees all this and says: ‘no! people should be different from the way they are’!? … He even knows what people should be like, this miserable fool, he paints a picture of himself on the wall and says ‘ecce homo!'

[Glass Mouse]

Wise words from Qaera, Musashi and Selpharia.

Lastly, because it's one of my favorite bits of writing, I'll just leave this here

Twilight of the Idols

Spoiler

Show

Reality shows us an enchanting abundance of types, a lavish profusion of forms in change and at play: and some worthless idiot of a moralist sees all this and says: ‘no! people should be different from the way they are’!? … He even knows what people should be like, this miserable fool, he paints a picture of himself on the wall and says ‘ecce homo!'

Very nice quote. Much truth.

Making that claim, "I know how things should be!" both implies that you know everything - every part of science, society and philosphy - and that you have the ability to stay objective and non-affected by bias and emotions. How else could you make an informed, sound judgment call?

We all have to muddle through the decisions and weirdness that is this world. The least we can do is acknowledge how limited our knowledge and perception is, and trust other people to be the experts on themselves.
After all, you are the thing you understand the best, even if that knowledge is still oh-so-very flawed.

Save your struggles for the ones where someone is obviously hurting, or openly asks for your help.

So... I hope I can get some advice here. My best friend, a long time crossplayer in the animecommunity, is currently writing this letter aoubt how he feels and how he is going trough a phase. I haven't had the letter, but I am promised to read it first as some sort of reality check.

Up until now i have been neutral/a bit supportive making some backhanded compliments like commenting how fabulous he looks with "cherry" nails and such, but now I fear i'll have to be frank and maybe a bit blunt. meawhile I'd like to stay supportive (especially more then I am now) and make sure he feels comfortable in his own home (he, I and 12 others are currently living in a student flat which can sometimes lead to some friction and awkward moemnts).

So my question is, how do I tactfully express my honest opinion on this letter without actually insulting or discomforting him? (Yes I know this letter might be less then I expect of it, I just want to be prepared if this is the bomb I imagine he's dropping). I mean this is a sensitive issue and I don't want to lose a dear friend...

It's very hard to answer without knowing what you expect from the letter, and what you'd like to say to it. Why do you expect a problem?

[Reluctance]

So, how does this even come up with these girls, exactly? It seems odd to me that someone goes "Hi, I'm <name> and I'm trans/gay/whatever, and just leaves it at that. How does everyone else react to this?

You'd be surprised how many people think it's an appropriate topic to bring up early and often. As if their whole sense of identity rests on those labels.

Thankfully, the number of people acting like petulant adolescents drops off when they stop being actual petulant adolescents. Never goes away completely, sadly, but tails off considerably.

Cynic's aside to Tris: If you visibly get frustrated with people like that, it just ties in with their internal narrative about how hip they are, and how much the world is against them. Being nonplussed is much more effective, with the occasional aside taking note of their real behavior.

[Triscuitable]

what I hear from this is "only girls can wear dresses and only guys can play bass and work out"

I don't really know how to reply. I don't associate those with stereotypes, but I feel like they are the line that I draw towards the gender identity that I don't feel I have.

I don't understand the second part of this, can you explain? Bar sexual girls are annoying, though.

~ ♅

Alright, I knew it wasn't just her that used that term! Yes, my aforementioned lesbian friend refers to most of these girls as bar sexuals. And that's exactly what I see in the ones that just go "oh yeah, and I'm bi, by the way."

[Arachu]

Thanks.

I'm that uh, uterus girl that Asta Kask invited here. You guys wanted me for something?

First things first - *welcomeglomp!*

You can ask whatever questions you need/want/can't-find-a-reason-not to ask, really - someone (often everyone ) will typically respond pretty soon. If you don't know what to ask... Well, someone more diligent than me will probably post some useful links.

Tonight was very fun. I don't really know how to put it.

I don't really know how to reply. I don't associate those with stereotypes, but I feel like they are the line that I draw towards the gender identity that I don't feel I have.

It isn't that 'expression=gender' but rather that 'expression indicates gender', right? I can empathize - realizing that I always wanted to wear skirts was one of my clues.

Alright, I knew it wasn't just her that used that term! Yes, my aforementioned lesbian friend refers to most of these girls as bar sexuals. And that's exactly what I see in the ones that just go "oh yeah, and I'm bi, by the way."

I... Gotta be honest, I do that. The only thing keeping me from loudly announcing my gender and sexuality anytime I walk into a room (common courtesy aside ) is the knowledge of how badly that could go where I am. I don't know if I'd blurt it out in the middle of a presentation or anything, but if I lived around people known for their open-mindedness I'd damn near put up flyers to make sure people heard.

I'm not trying to call you out, it's just that different people act different ways about things. You can't really be certain whether people who seem to be faking are actually faking, because they might just think differently than others expect them to.


~Bianca

[SiuiS]

I think pepper spray and martial arts cost money which she doesn't have. She's on a fairly limited budget as it is.

This is a good point, but learning how to avoid getting hurt would take approximately three hours of YouTube-ing.

Good heavens. It's interesting to take a step back and see where inertia brings you. Such innocuous baby steps, and suddenly... Blah.

I think, conversationally, I should stop listing technicalities that don't support my point.

Thanks.

I'm that uh, uterus girl that Asta Kask invited here. You guys wanted me for something?

I believe we had questions for you, and or tha you had questions but no group to speak to?

Regardless, it's a pleasure to meet you!

She shouldn't have to. :/
Advice like this always places to onus on the victim.

I can see how it would come across that way. I don't intend to. I don't think I am. I recognize that there's often a disparity between what I think I'm saying and what others hear...

I think the best three things to say for this are;

1: one of my cut statements was "a lady should know how to defend herself; she just shouldn't have to do so." I decided at the time the sexist bent of the language would be more hassle than the sentiment is worth. I should stop second guessing my conversational partners.

2: it's a personal opinion, but I feel that if someone comes out of a situation saying "my actions were dictated for me due to fear of violence" more than a handful of times, that person is doing something wrong.

3: I obviously have a lot of work to do reconciling my macro- and micro- views. So I will work on that before continuing. If I can't make clear a percoeved difference between personal responsibility and blaming the victim, then it may not be a clear difference. Though I blame everyone usually, with only the victim having an escape clause. Bystanders and attackers don't get off scot-free.

*gives cheeseburger*

It takes a few minutes for the police to arrive. In that time, she may well have lost a few teeths and cracked a few ribs. That will lead to pain, visits to the hospital and an appointment to the dentist. The latter two costs money she doesn't have. And yes, she really shouldn't have to.

This is a terrible excuse though. Calling the police will not get you more hurt. Calling the police does not require you to stand there. Calling the police requires there to be the threat of an emergency requiring police intervention. Calling the police has, to my knowledge and experience, no cost beyond the tax money you've already paid.

If you are already in danger, the opportunity costs of that danger is MORE reason to call the police.

This might not hold up in every nation across the globe. But in the countries whose police I am familiar with, their job involves protecting; Pre-empting crime. Making sure she does not get hurt is their job. They cannot consider doing their job, while on the job, an inconvenience.

Speaking of the drinks (or anything else, really) Lix hands out, and their strange and varied effects, what effect would the standard '[item] of reverse [sex/gender but unfortunately not actually clear which]' (for purposes of simplicity, let's say a ring, the effects of which go away when it's taken off) have on trans*/genderfluid/androgynous people?*

Edit:*

My guess is that it comes down to whether or not it simply looks at the body of the imbiber, gets into the wearer's mind and reverses their gender identity, or looks at how they seem themselves and then reverses that, but it seems like the kind of thing you'd all be interested in, and that you might know more about...

Most magic works off of what is perceivable. So regardless of the mind or soul, the body is what is noticed and changed. Changing the mind would require the addition of mind magic and a creator aware of non binary differences.

Proof that gingerkind and cats are best friends. We will kill maim become friends with you all.

We're a kind now? I thought that sort of broad labeling was the kind of thing you disliked.

Take a step into any school. You'll see that it's a popularity race, where guys gawk over girls, girls avoid guys, and claims are made to keep hormones at bay.

Even my friend, who is genuinely a lesbian, hates these girls on Tumblr who claim to be FtM, just because it's "in". It really is a fad in Washington, Golentan. It may not be where you are, but this is a super-liberal state.

Fixed that mate.

High school and junior high school (and now some elementary schools nowadays ) are terrible. Everyone there is experiencing the same level of Identity crisis you are experiencing. They handle it in different ways. For some, that's conformity.

You'll be happier, I think, if you didn't let them under your skin so much

I still want a bigender, blue/pink mixed icon. It'd be nice.

Fun fact: there's a secret, third icon that is just a circle, that happens to be the exact same color as the background it sits on. I'm using one right now

[Lady Serpentine]

Most magic works off of what is perceivable. So regardless of the mind or soul, the body is what is noticed and changed. Changing the mind would require the addition of mind magic and a creator aware of non binary differences.

That, or something like a deal with fae/a wish spell/etc., where the effects aren't always what one intends, but rather what one says.

And I should probably stop asking questions like this now. They're technically LGBTA+ related, but I have a feeling that the intent of the thread is rather different (even if I am uncertain as to what other section to use for them, since I doubt the game related areas would have good answers )...

[Rawhide]

People are asking about the gender icons? Well, it may be pertinent to link to the original announcement, as it may answer your questions.

Good day everyone

There has been a lot of talk about binary gender options on forms and when registering at different sites (in particular, social networking sites). Giant in the Playground has been better than most, as your choice of selecting and displaying a gender is entirely optional. But, we still only had three options: Male, Female, and Other/Undisclosed.

Unfortunately, we cannot start creating gender options for every possible representation, but we can modify the options slightly to give you more choices on how you wish to identify yourself. Based on the above mentioned talk, and a conversation with SMEE, it will now be possible for people who are transexual or transgender to identify themselves as such, if they wish to do so.

The three existing gender options, Male, Female, and Other/Undisclosed, will of course remain. So, if these two new options are not suitable for you, you can still select to not display a gender icon or to continue to select only a single gender. We apologise, but, as mentioned, we cannot cater for every possibility.

The two new icons are of Male2Female and Female2Male. Each with both icons separated by an arrow. It is envisioned that people who are transexual and transgender (including those who have no intention of any physical changes, through those currently transitioning, to those who have completed surgery), and wish to identify themselves as such, can optionally use these icons to indicate their physical or birth sex as well as their gender identity or new sex. There may be other potential uses for this as well. For example, someone who was born intersexed and primarily has the physical characteristics of one sex, but chooses the identity of the other.

[Triscuitable]

We're a kind now? I thought that sort of broad labeling was the kind of thing you disliked.

Yes, but I never said I hated satire now, did I?

[Selpharia]

It isn't that 'expression=gender' but rather that 'expression indicates gender', right? I can empathize - realizing that I always wanted to wear skirts was one of my clues.

I personally prefer dresses, and my first clue was that I kept feeling my figure was insufficiently feminine every time I looked at it

I... Gotta be honest, I do that. The only thing keeping me from loudly announcing my gender and sexuality anytime I walk into a room (common courtesy aside ) is the knowledge of how badly that could go where I am. I don't know if I'd blurt it out in the middle of a presentation or anything, but if I lived around people known for their open-mindedness I'd damn near put up flyers to make sure people heard.

I personally could never do that, just because I'm far too introverted to bother someone with something in which I don't think they'd be interested without some drastic need. That and given the way I talk and look at the moment, no one would believe me.

Also bleh today, we saw an advertisement for the Avengers movie my mother was like "Oh, that looks like a great guy movie, you should go see that." Nngh!

[Lady Serpentine]

((Posting to make other posts actually show up.))