LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

[pffh]

Edit: I like the Misters Iceland better. They look more like fit and relatively attractive men. The women just look really dressed-up. Maybe these pageants should be run with the people entirely naked.

That's why there is a swimsuit portion.

[KenderWizard]

Is it? Most beauty pageants I've heard tell of dint have many, if any, male viewers. The ladies involved do it because they want to.

I know that no one forces a grown-up to dress up and compete in a pageant (child pageants, on the other hand... ). However, the existence of pageant culture, and beauty culture and competitions generally, feed and are fed by a culture that says women are valued based primarily on looks, that youth is beauty (many have age limits), that a specific body and face type is beauty, and all that is tightly intertwined with advertising and media and the male gaze, or the presumed male viewer. So again, this is the microproblematic versus macroproblematic thing. It's not an individual pageant competitor or viewer's fault, they can do what they like. It's just that, as a whole, in this system that pushes female beauty so hard, it becomes part of the bigger problem.

Now, I haven't exactly thought this through at all, but; is this a bad thing?

Generally, it points to something being predicated on either gender essentialism (girls are naturally more interested in beauty competitions) or outright sexism. It's not a perfect yes=sexism system; it's a tool for examining something, like the Bechdel Test. Just because a movie has two female characters talking to one another about something other than a man doesn't automatically make it a feminist bastion, and the same goes the other way around. But it's a useful starting point for examining how female characters are treated in the movie. Just because beauty pageants are for women only doesn't mean they're inherently sexist, it's a starting point for examining them from a gender equality perspective. But I do think there's a correlation!

I have an honest question. How do you all feel on the acronym SSA or Same Sex Attraction? I ask because a deacon where my parents go to church said at a meeting or seminar he attented the person, a "former" gay person kept calling homosexuality same sex attraction. To me this felt like he was catagorizing it as a mental illness. I did not like it one bit but stayed quiet due to parental involvment.

I haven't heard that before. Generally, when something sounds innocuous, unless I have other cues to go on (for example, I'm not aware of this being, say, a term mainly used by anti-LGBT+ religious-based groups, but if it was, that would make me suspicious of it) I tend to judge based on tone of voice and context. A perfectly normal word can be used as an insult (think of how people can use "woman" or "gay" or "poor" like it's a bad taste in their mouth).

Wait you don't have male pageants? We have both Ungfrú Ísland (Miss Iceland) and Herra Ísland (Mister Iceland).

I have never come across a male beauty pageant. I have come across male contests to get a "Mr Whatever" title, mainly body-building or such, not based on attractiveness. They could exist, but I'm pretty sure it's an overwhelmingly woman-aimed thing with the pretty outfits and all. What's Mister Iceland like?

[Mono Vertigo]

I know there's a Mister Belgium competition.
Not nearly as advertised as the female version though.
I don't care, I hate all pageants equally. With some pageants being more equals than the others.

[pffh]

I have never come across a male beauty pageant. I have come across male contests to get a "Mr Whatever" title, mainly body-building or such, not based on attractiveness. They could exist, but I'm pretty sure it's an overwhelmingly woman-aimed thing with the pretty outfits and all. What's Mister Iceland like?

Mostly like Miss Iceland just with dudes instead of dames and suits or tuxedos instead of dresses from what I've seen.

Note I haven't actually watched either of those competition and my knowledge only comes from glancing at a TV that happens to be on when they are being shown and the coverage from the news. So I might be way off.

Edit: Ooh there is one difference in that the local hardcore feminists only complain about Miss Iceland.

And yeah minor research has shown that they are quite identical.

[noparlpf]

Child pageants. >:|
"Toddlers and Tiaras" is apparently a thing. A thing in which four-year-old girls put on pads for their rears and chests, and all that other ****, and the parents aren't arrested for abuse, and the judges aren't arrested for sexual harassment of children, and people actually watch this?

Edit:

Edit: Ooh there is one difference in that the local hardcore feminists only complain about Miss Iceland.

Might have to do with the men not wearing (as much visible) makeup. And that the men are more attractive? [sarcasm]Wait, nevermind, feminists are all lesbians, they can't like Mister Iceland because the guys are attractive. Must be something else.[/sarcasm]

[SiuiS]

I know that no one forces a grown-up to dress up and compete in a pageant (child pageants, on the other hand... ). However, the existence of pageant culture, and beauty culture and competitions generally, feed and are fed by a culture that says women are valued based primarily on looks, that youth is beauty (many have age limits), that a specific body and face type is beauty, and all that is tightly intertwined with advertising and media and the male gaze, or the presumed male viewer. So again, this is the microproblematic versus macroproblematic thing. It's not an individual pageant competitor or viewer's fault, they can do what they like. It's just that, as a whole, in this system that pushes female beauty so hard, it becomes part of the bigger problem.

I see what you mean, but it feels incomplete. At this level, where there is consideration for influence by degrees, it's odd that any ameliorating circumstances are disregarded. I get why, but my knee jerk reaction is to wonder what the whole picture looks like - and ignores that it often gets bogged down in minutia.

Generally, it points to something being predicated on either gender essentialism (girls are naturally more interested in beauty competitions) or outright sexism. It's not a perfect yes=sexism system; it's a tool for examining something, like the Bechdel Test. Just because a movie has two female characters talking to one another about something other than a man doesn't automatically make it a feminist bastion, and the same goes the other way around. But it's a useful starting point for examining how female characters are treated in the movie. Just because beauty pageants are for women only doesn't mean they're inherently sexist, it's a starting point for examining them from a gender equality perspective. But I do think there's a correlation!

Here I was afraid of specifying and putting my foot in my mouth. I meant, more broadly.
Exclusion is a valid tactic for grouping, because it increases the feeling of ... Specialness, I suppose. On paper it sounds dangerously closed to validating malicious discrimination, but in practice it's not.
Certainly people can and have used this sort of thing poorly for no reason "no girls because cooties", "blacks need not apply", etc. but a few bad apples haven't necessarily spoiled the bunch.

Oddly, there are some topics about which one would say it was discernment, rather than discrimination. It's usually when people are divided by physical differences that there is a problem. A star wars fans only club would work great. A muscle men only club would raise a fracas. So I don't think that having an arbitrary distinction based on culture is necessarily bad.

Sticky wicket. I can see easily how it would become an issue, but from a neutral starting point I think cultural distinctions have value. They just shouldn't be enforced onto unwilling folks.

[Worira]

I have never come across a male beauty pageant. I have come across male contests to get a "Mr Whatever" title, mainly body-building or such, not based on attractiveness. They could exist, but I'm pretty sure it's an overwhelmingly woman-aimed thing with the pretty outfits and all. What's Mister Iceland like?

Err... how is bodybuilding not based on attractiveness? It's based on a unrealistic and unhealthy ideal of attractiveness, but on attractiveness nonetheless.

[supernerd]

Err... how is bodybuilding not based on attractiveness? It's based on a unrealistic and unhealthy ideal of attractiveness, but on attractiveness nonetheless.

Pheromones.

One of my biggest fears of going to a gym is taking too long to change and the massive amounts of fresh male pheromones putting me in an embarrassing situation.

[SiuiS]

Err... how is bodybuilding not based on attractiveness? It's based on a unrealistic and unhealthy ideal of attractiveness, but on attractiveness nonetheless.

I disagree.
Bodybuilders have come to be considered attractive, but that wasn't the point initially.

... Aaaaand everything else I can say is all personal opinion. Hmm.

[Worira]

At no point has bodybuilding not been a matter of attractiveness. That's what distinguishes it from powerlifting.

[noparlpf]

Err... how is bodybuilding not based on attractiveness? It's based on a unrealistic and unhealthy ideal of attractiveness, but on attractiveness nonetheless.

Isn't bodybuilding working out to be healthy and to be in shape? Nothing unhealthy or unattractive there. Unless taken to extremes. Which you seem to be distinguishing as powerlifting.

[Worira]

Basically, bodybuilding is a competition judged based on the size and definition of muscles, and powerlifting is a competition judged based on picking up large objects. This is a world champion powerlifter, and this is a world champion bodybuilder

[noparlpf]

Basically, bodybuilding is a competition judged based on the size and definition of muscles, and powerlifting is a competition judged based on picking up large objects. This is a world champion powerlifter, and this is a world champion bodybuilder

Oh, okay. Yeah, that's kind of icky. People who work out to keep in shape look fine. When it's taken to extremes it's bad.

[KerfuffleMach2]

So, a situation came up a couple of days ago at work, which popped a question into my head that I feel a strong need to ask, just for the sake of asking. Lovely curiosity.

Lucky for me, I am not a cat.

Anyways, I work at a U-Haul. U-Haul is a company that rents trucks and trailers for do-it-yourself moving, and sells moving supplies. (That's for the people outside of the US and Canada, since U-Haul only exists in those countries.)

There was a couple people in line at the counter, so I look to the next customer to see if they need to be helped. Now, based on appearance alone, I assumed this customer was male. So, I asked, "Can I help you, sir?"

The response given was, "No thanks, I'm with them. And it's ma'am."

...which led to an awkward moment of silence from me.

Now, she said it in a polite tone, so I don't think she took any offense from it. Which leads me to believe that she probably gets that a lot.

But, I still felt kinda bad. I mean, I assumed she was male because she looked completely male. Not even the clothes. Her overall body shape and facial features told me male. But, her voice was kind of feminine.

So, my question is this. I know there are some of you here who have a strong physical resemblance to your opposite gender. Which means that there's a good chance this has been done to you. So...do you take offense to it?

[Reluctance]

Oddly, there are some topics about which one would say it was discernment, rather than discrimination. It's usually when people are divided by physical differences that there is a problem. A star wars fans only club would work great. A muscle men only club would raise a fracas. So I don't think that having an arbitrary distinction based on culture is necessarily bad.

Nine times for ten, it's about who gets turned away at the door. The Star Wars fan club membership would be self-selecting. As would the bodybuilder's club. Or for a more extreme case, strip club. It's when you tell people that they're flat-out forbidden from entering that you raise a fuss.

Beauty pageants ... eh. I'm fine with anybody who wants to try out being given a good once-over. If they're too old, too fat, etc. to make the cut, they can be kept from the main competition. Just like how American Idol and similar shows separate the winnowing phase where you get to see the train wrecks, from the actual competition where a good voice and stage presence are mandatory.

Isn't bodybuilding working out to be healthy and to be in shape? Nothing unhealthy or unattractive there. Unless taken to extremes. Which you seem to be distinguishing as powerlifting.

The only difference is that the bodybuilding physical ideal diverges noticeably from the generally accepted standards for male beauty. It's still all about aesthetics.

If you're looking for places where male body image issues are played up to a comical level, ask yourself one question. Financial scams of the foreign lottery/Nigerian prince type have become the archetypal spam. After that, what's the first thing that comes to mind when you think obvious email scams?

So, my question is this. I know there are some of you here who have a strong physical resemblance to your opposite gender. Which means that there's a good chance this has been done to you. So...do you take offense to it?

Intent is important. I've never been in a situation where misgendering has been an issue, but most people can tell an honest well-intentioned mistake from a slur. It might be an annoyance, but reasonable people don't get angry at others who make good-faith efforts.

[Mono Vertigo]

So, my question is this. I know there are some of you here who have a strong physical resemblance to your opposite gender. Which means that there's a good chance this has been done to you. So...do you take offense to it?

Not me, but my boyfriend. Before he decided to transition, it annoyed him. Once he took his decision, he clearly found it amusing to challenge people's expectations and see them being unable to find the proper pronoun: "Have a nice day, miss... si... err... D:"
Now that his appearance clearly matches his gender (and has a perma-stubble) but all the legal stuff hasn't been obtained yet, there are fewer mistakes, but he's also being careful to shave and appear female/androgynous whenever legal documents with his old identity are going to be involved (like when he went voting). So if he gets misgendered today, it's only on purpose.

Reminds me of an anecdote with plenty misgendering and no good intent.

Spoiler

Show

My boyfriend, his mother, her friend, and I were at the mall. He had just started taking hormones, so still looked androgynous. We end up walking near a kiosk that sells beauty product for women. My mother-in-law and her friend are interested and start looking at products, while us two stay away (as I have no interest whatsoever in beauty products).
The saleswoman, seeing that we were together, asked us if we were interested, and at once, we deny having any interest in checking her stuff. She misgenders my boyfriend and quickly gets corrected.
Then, she mouths a very quick and insincere apology, and turns to me, having already heard I wasn't interested. She asks me, with a mocking voice: "Well, are you not a woman, too, or would you like to take a look at our products?"
Unlike my companion, while I'm not very feminine, my appearance has always matched my gender, and I only was ever misgendered below the age of 8.
"No, [REDACTED], of course I'm a woman, I'm just not [REDACTED] interested."
Well, I said it without the redacted parts. I was MAD.
Good job, woman, one unintentional misgendering, one intentional misgendering, dismissive attitude against transsexuals, and the implication I can't be a woman if I'm not interested by your [REDACTED] beauty products, all in less than 30 seconds.

[SiuiS]

Isn't bodybuilding working out to be healthy and to be in shape? Nothing unhealthy or unattractive there. Unless taken to extremes. Which you seem to be distinguishing as powerlifting.

Body building is literal. They work to give each muscle maximum definition, so every lobe, belly and cord is distinct. It is actually rather unhealthy; the process to get the meat without the gristle is torturous, and they dehydrate themselves so the skin becomes parchment thin and clings to the muscle. Additionally, a muscle in a constant state of felxion is actually weaker than a relaxed, jiggly/flabby muscle. Part of its potential had already Been expended.

On the other end, power lifters work to gain static or sometimes dynamic force. These are the guys who will haul big rigs by their ... Well, whatever they can attach the big rig too. They are thick, as the core must support everything else, and muscle doesn't build up without fat unless you're on a strict diet and or steroids. Not at speed, at least.

That's why I say it's not quite about beauty. They chose to enhance a visual aspect of themselves, not to look good, but to win. That people find it attractive is a secondary thing. So it's not a beauty pageant in my eyes.

This also entertains me because everything I've read in fitness magazines tends to promote a body building physique instead of a useful one. I'm going to start reading Women's health and similar, to see if the differences are actual or incidental; I think men are just marketed the less useful exercise routines.

So, a situation came up a couple of days ago at work, which popped a question into my head that I feel a strong need to ask, just for the sake of asking. Lovely curiosity.

Lucky for me, I am not a cat.

Anyways, I work at a U-Haul. U-Haul is a company that rents trucks and trailers for do-it-yourself moving, and sells moving supplies. (That's for the people outside of the US and Canada, since U-Haul only exists in those countries.)

There was a couple people in line at the counter, so I look to the next customer to see if they need to be helped. Now, based on appearance alone, I assumed this customer was male. So, I asked, "Can I help you, sir?"

The response given was, "No thanks, I'm with them. And it's ma'am."

...which led to an awkward moment of silence from me.

Now, she said it in a polite tone, so I don't think she took any offense from it. Which leads me to believe that she probably gets that a lot.

But, I still felt kinda bad. I mean, I assumed she was male because she looked completely male. Not even the clothes. Her overall body shape and facial features told me male. But, her voice was kind of feminine.

So, my question is this. I know there are some of you here who have a strong physical resemblance to your opposite gender. Which means that there's a good chance this has been done to you. So...do you take offense to it?

This only started happening in the last month. A customer left and called over his shoulder "later [word]!" with [word] being either bro or girl. Five days later a lady leaves after a spot of conversation with my filly (who showed up an hour before closing) and says "have a good night ladies!" and returned seconds later to poke her head into the door with "and... Gentleman... ". It is noticeable because of my beard.

My response was a combination of embarrassment/chagrin and amusement/joy.

[Qaera]

You brought a horse to your job?

~ ♅

[KenderWizard]

Mostly like Miss Iceland just with dudes instead of dames and suits or tuxedos instead of dresses from what I've seen.

Note I haven't actually watched either of those competition and my knowledge only comes from glancing at a TV that happens to be on when they are being shown and the coverage from the news. So I might be way off.

Edit: Ooh there is one difference in that the local hardcore feminists only complain about Miss Iceland.

And yeah minor research has shown that they are quite identical.

Huh, that's mad. Literally never come across one before, but I suppose there's room for everything in this world!

Anyway, of course the feminists are more concerned about the female one because, like I said, the female beauty competition is part of the whole body image thing that disproportionately affects women. (Note: disproportionately, not exclusively). It's a drop. For women, it's a drop in an ocean of messages telling women they're too fat too old too ugly too short too tall too flabby too muscular legs too short breasts too small tummy too big eyes too small. For men, it's a drop in a pond.

Here I was afraid of specifying and putting my foot in my mouth. I meant, more broadly.
Exclusion is a valid tactic for grouping, because it increases the feeling of ... Specialness, I suppose. On paper it sounds dangerously closed to validating malicious discrimination, but in practice it's not.
Certainly people can and have used this sort of thing poorly for no reason "no girls because cooties", "blacks need not apply", etc. but a few bad apples haven't necessarily spoiled the bunch.

Oddly, there are some topics about which one would say it was discernment, rather than discrimination. It's usually when people are divided by physical differences that there is a problem. A star wars fans only club would work great. A muscle men only club would raise a fracas. So I don't think that having an arbitrary distinction based on culture is necessarily bad.

Sticky wicket. I can see easily how it would become an issue, but from a neutral starting point I think cultural distinctions have value. They just shouldn't be enforced onto unwilling folks.

There's a difference between things we choose (star wars fans, exercise nuts, feminists) and things we don't have control over (gender, race, etc).

Err... how is bodybuilding not based on attractiveness? It's based on a unrealistic and unhealthy ideal of attractiveness, but on attractiveness nonetheless.

Well, a few points.
- Bodybuilding isn't really aiming for attractiveness to the other gender, it's aiming for muscle definition (or something, I'm not exactly sure how you win at bodybuilding). It's a very specific aesthetic, and I'm sure some people find it attractive, but it wouldn't matter if they didn't. It's more like a power fantasy than a sexual fantasy.
- The female equivalent of bodybuilding isn't make-up and tiaras, it's also bodybuilding.
- The standard for beauty-pageant-beauty for women is also unrealistic and unhealthy (although less so), but is definitely always framed in an attractiveness (to a presumed heterosexual man) way.

[noparlpf]

So, my question is this. I know there are some of you here who have a strong physical resemblance to your opposite gender. Which means that there's a good chance this has been done to you. So...do you take offense to it?

If I were you I wouldn't feel too bad because how could you know? Although this makes me wonder if there's a good gender-neutral respectful term one can use in a work setting like that.
When I was a kid (ten to thirteen) I was frequently mistaken for a girl. At first it annoyed me because I saw it as further proof that people were incredibly stupid. Then I realised that who gives a poop what other people think if I know who I am. Though, I'm lucky enough to be cis, so I didn't have any gender dysphoria throwing that off for me.

[Heliomance]

So I just booked an appointment with my GP to ask to be referred to a gender therapist, largely because I need some evidence that I wasn't making things up when I went head asplodey back in February. I have no idea how the appointment's supposed to go, though. What do I say? What should I be asking?

[Astrella]

Spoiler

Show

My boyfriend, his mother, her friend, and I were at the mall. He had just started taking hormones, so still looked androgynous. We end up walking near a kiosk that sells beauty product for women. My mother-in-law and her friend are interested and start looking at products, while us two stay away (as I have no interest whatsoever in beauty products).
The saleswoman, seeing that we were together, asked us if we were interested, and at once, we deny having any interest in checking her stuff. She misgenders my boyfriend and quickly gets corrected.
Then, she mouths a very quick and insincere apology, and turns to me, having already heard I wasn't interested. She asks me, with a mocking voice: "Well, are you not a woman, too, or would you like to take a look at our products?"
Unlike my companion, while I'm not very feminine, my appearance has always matched my gender, and I only was ever misgendered below the age of 8.
"No, [REDACTED], of course I'm a woman, I'm just not [REDACTED] interested."
Well, I said it without the redacted parts. I was MAD.
Good job, woman, one unintentional misgendering, one intentional misgendering, dismissive attitude against transsexuals, and the implication I can't be a woman if I'm not interested by your [REDACTED] beauty products, all in less than 30 seconds.

Gah, that sounds really awful and upsetting.

So I just booked an appointment with my GP to ask to be referred to a gender therapist, largely because I need some evidence that I wasn't making things up when I went head asplodey back in February. I have no idea how the appointment's supposed to go, though. What do I say? What should I be asking?

Well, you don't need to say more than "I'm having gender issues and would like to talk about them with a gender therapist; could you refer me to one?". But you can always talk about mores stuff (I did), even if your gp doesn't know anything about this, they should still be able to provide some feedback if they're worth their salt.

[SynissterSyster]

Body building is literal. They work to give each muscle maximum definition, so every lobe, belly and cord is distinct. It is actually rather unhealthy; the process to get the meat without the gristle is torturous, and they dehydrate themselves so the skin becomes parchment thin and clings to the muscle. Additionally, a muscle in a constant state of felxion is actually weaker than a relaxed, jiggly/flabby muscle. Part of its potential had already Been expended.

On the other end, power lifters work to gain static or sometimes dynamic force. These are the guys who will haul big rigs by their ... Well, whatever they can attach the big rig too. They are thick, as the core must support everything else, and muscle doesn't build up without fat unless you're on a strict diet and or steroids. Not at speed, at least.

That's why I say it's not quite about beauty. They chose to enhance a visual aspect of themselves, not to look good, but to win. That people find it attractive is a secondary thing. So it's not a beauty pageant in my eyes.

This also entertains me because everything I've read in fitness magazines tends to promote a body building physique instead of a useful one. I'm going to start reading Women's health and similar, to see if the differences are actual or incidental; I think men are just marketed the less useful exercise routines.

You are true on most of what you say. Fitness mags tend to focus on one primary aspect of the fitness world but they, to me, are more for marketing over priced products that show little beneficial use, YMMV.

But I don't agree with the body building is unhealthy. To develop the muscle growth that a natural builder needs requires the proper diet and lots of water. I can PM you some websites that are super for showing natural body building.

You are correct on the time it takes to build muscle. At best you gain .5 to 1 lbs of muscle a year if you are dedicated. Most of the fitness mags are showing is, to me, low body fat. Having low body fat means your muscles show more, like six pack abs. So one can do crunches untill their face turns purple but that doesn't help show abs. It is about cardio and 12-8% body fat.

[The Succubus]

I have a question directed to Heliomance but I suspect a few others might be able to offer some insight as well.

Does being in a relationship reduce the sense of gender-fluidity a person feels or does it stay the same or even increase? Just a little curious.

[Reluctance]

But I don't agree with the body building is unhealthy. To develop the muscle growth that a natural builder needs requires the proper diet and lots of water. I can PM you some websites that are super for showing natural body building.

Read up on steroid abuse in bodybuilding circles. That's before you get into things like eating disorders and injuries. Simple strength training/weight training isn't enough to get you into the big leagues anymore. We're not just talking regular exercise, a healthy diet, and an awareness of one's body here.

[cycoris]

Re: misgendering

I find it annoying when people label me as a girl, but it makes me happy that I'm (very) occasionally referred to as male even though I'm not male at all either. Mostly I just wish that there was a neutral version of sir/ma'am that clerks and such could use, or that in more personal situations people would bleeping ask instead of assuming, particularly since there is literally NO way to present as any nonbinary gender even if I wanted to, though it really should not be necessary to "present" as a gender in order to be perceived or acknowledged as such...

I know some people who use Mx. as a gender-neutral title, and I know it's now acknowledged in some official capacities in the UK (on deed polls, I think?). While I'm not really a fan of the way it sounds, I do wish it was more popular so people could avoid feeling like they have to guess if they want to use a title, particularly if it's required that they do so to customers at their work.

[KenderWizard]

So I just booked an appointment with my GP to ask to be referred to a gender therapist, largely because I need some evidence that I wasn't making things up when I went head asplodey back in February. I have no idea how the appointment's supposed to go, though. What do I say? What should I be asking?

Good for you!

Doctor referral stuff:

Spoiler

Show

Generally, if I was going to see my doctor for a referral for something non-obvious (something they ask questions about rather than examine your body) I would explain my situation as best I could and explain what you want "I think it would be best if I saw a gender therapist to explore this issue further with someone who's trained to deal with it".

I think usually doctors have a list of people they are comfortable referring to, usually that they worked with before or maybe through mutual contacts? I'm not sure. I know the person my doctor referred me to (for fatigue, recently, I haven't seen this specialist yet) was someone who he had both worked with on cases like mine and, awesomely, was treated by when my doctor had a similar problem himself. So if you're concerned you can say "How well do you know this therapist? Have you referred patients to them before and if so, were those patients satisfied?" Hopefully, they'll have some good reason to refer you to them rather than "I pulled their name from a hat". If you're not happy with their reason, like if they got their recommendation through another doctor and you're not sure, you could ask your doctor to write to the other doctor with your questions, or inquire further "How well do you know the doctor who recommended this therapist?".

Think about the things you want to ask and make a list in advance (I often do this when I go see my doctor because there's always like, six different issues I need to talk to them about plus renewing prescriptions etc). You are entitled to ask questions and feel comfortable.

Edit:
Forgot to add my voice to the general displeasure towards a lack of gender-neutral options for shop people to call customers. Also, what's up with there being only one male version and two female versions? Sir, and then ma'am and miss. It's like Mr and Ms, Miss, Mrs. (I have strong feminist views on this stuff, as I'm sure you'll all be shocked to hear. ) I think there should just be a general politeness term, or else nothing. Surely "Can I help you with anything?" in a polite voice is good enough!

[The Extinguisher]

I'd just thought I'd share some piece of happy information with everyone here.

Tom Gabel, of the punk band Against Me! recently came out as transgender last night. The full story is here, but she plans on taking the name Laura Jane Grace. If I'm not mistaken, that makes her one of the first major label musicians to come out as transgender, which takes a lot of courage for someone in the spotlight like that. And for the most part (from what I can tell), the reaction among fans has been mostly supportive and positive.

Against Me! is one of my favourite bands, and she's one of my favourite singers, so I'm listening intensely on what she plans to do musically now.

Also, for reference, this is their song Gender Dysphoria Blues, which was first performed in March of this year.

[noparlpf]

Good for you!

Doctor referral stuff:

Spoiler

Show

Generally, if I was going to see my doctor for a referral for something non-obvious (something they ask questions about rather than examine your body) I would explain my situation as best I could and explain what you want "I think it would be best if I saw a gender therapist to explore this issue further with someone who's trained to deal with it".

I think usually doctors have a list of people they are comfortable referring to, usually that they worked with before or maybe through mutual contacts? I'm not sure. I know the person my doctor referred me to (for fatigue, recently, I haven't seen this specialist yet) was someone who he had both worked with on cases like mine and, awesomely, was treated by when my doctor had a similar problem himself. So if you're concerned you can say "How well do you know this therapist? Have you referred patients to them before and if so, were those patients satisfied?" Hopefully, they'll have some good reason to refer you to them rather than "I pulled their name from a hat". If you're not happy with their reason, like if they got their recommendation through another doctor and you're not sure, you could ask your doctor to write to the other doctor with your questions, or inquire further "How well do you know the doctor who recommended this therapist?".

Think about the things you want to ask and make a list in advance (I often do this when I go see my doctor because there's always like, six different issues I need to talk to them about plus renewing prescriptions etc). You are entitled to ask questions and feel comfortable.

Edit:
Forgot to add my voice to the general displeasure towards a lack of gender-neutral options for shop people to call customers. Also, what's up with there being only one male version and two female versions? Sir, and then ma'am and miss. It's like Mr and Ms, Miss, Mrs. (I have strong feminist views on this stuff, as I'm sure you'll all be shocked to hear. ) I think there should just be a general politeness term, or else nothing. Surely "Can I help you with anything?" in a polite voice is good enough!

Wait. You, having strong feminist views on a thing? Shocker.
(In other words, I agree.)

I'd just thought I'd share some piece of happy information with everyone here.

Tom Gabel, of the punk band Against Me! recently came out as transgender last night. The full story is here, but she plans on taking the name Laura Jane Grace. If I'm not mistaken, that makes her one of the first major label musicians to come out as transgender, which takes a lot of courage for someone in the spotlight like that. And for the most part (from what I can tell), the reaction among fans has been mostly supportive and positive.

Against Me! is one of my favourite bands, and she's one of my favourite singers, so I'm listening intensely on what she plans to do musically now.

Also, for reference, this is their song Gender Dysphoria Blues, which was first performed in March of this year.

Saw this on facebook yesterday night. No clue who this singer is, but cool.

[Lady Serpentine]

@Cycoris: I'm somewhat confused as to what you mean... While, obviously, one shouldn't have to present as a gender in order for it to be acknowledged that one is that gender, how is one supposed to avoid perceiving someone whose gender doesn't match their appearance as whatever gender they appear to be without knowing them or being informed of it in some way?

Or were you using perceive in the sense of how one metaphorically sees someone, rather than literally, like how I might see a friend of mine as an artist?