LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

[noparlpf]

Um, guys/girls/etc?... I just looked in a mirror... And saw a girl. And she didn't mutate into a 'feminine male' - even when I leaned closer!

... It is so hard not to spam smileys right now. This must be what a "sugar rush" feels like.

~Bianca

Congrats! That sounds really awesome.

Geez, guys. I can't catch up when you spawn two whole threads in just two weeks!

So. Sorry to interrupt a nice conversation, but I kinda have to write this somewhere... Feminism and sexuality venting ohoy.

Spoiler

Show

Growing an interest in feminism has netted me a depression-like state. I hate being a girl. I hate the world's view on girls. I hate being the only one in my RL circle who can see how society and the media treats my gender.

I hate that almost all my friends are guys, and would view me as a crazy feminazi if I opened my mouth. It hurts to hear my friends go "feminism is extreme" and then admit they haven't ever read a single feminist theory or blog. "Make me a sandwich!" jokes are starting to hurt.
My boyfriend is oblivious and sweet. He goes "it's okay you feel like this", which... just makes me angry and hurt. I don't want his accept. I want understanding! I want someone to tell me I'm not entirely crazy for noticing and being bothered by these things.
I'm trying to mask it with humor, but I have no idea how to joke about it without keeping their jokes alive. And it's such a sensitive subject for me that I can't even discuss it rationally without being hurt by people's ignorance... and then going into defensive mode. Of course no one wants to listen to me.
I'm just so ****ing tired of feeling like a paranoid freak for this.

In lighter news, my sexuality is seriously messing with me. I had just decided that I was bi and demi when my mind started going completely gaga over guys... something I've never ever done before.
Then girls.
Then guys again.

I've had to fight myself not to downright ogle attractive people around me. It's frustrating and very confusing.

Right now, it's calmed down. And I've more or less given up. I think I'm bi eventhough I'll never be able to test it, but the demi theory is shaky. But then again, it's not like I would (want to) do anything, even if I were single. It's just... passionate looking
I've kinda made peace with that part, though. If my mind wants to mess with me, eh, I know better than to try to fight it.

But the feminism thing really, really bugs me. Ugh.

Sorry for venting. I just needed to get this out... somewhere people won't see me as a freak. At least I'm pretty sure you won't.
And I do know the solution. Stop feeling like a victim. Grab the empowering parts of feminism instead. Be patient with people around me. Don't take it personally.
I'm... getting there. Hopefully.

I get that occasionally, but out of my friends, I'm the most misogynistic, and I only say misogynistic things ironically. So I'll just go with whatever Kender said in response to you because I'm exhausted and she probably said my thoughts already.

Sounds to me like you are a feminist! Thinking women's rights are important and that women aren't inherently inferior to men? That's feminism. Standing up when someone says something sexist? That's feminism. Believing people deserve the same rights regardless of gender? Feminism. You're free to identify as such. Some people don't want to, as discussed here, but I know men who openly identify as feminist and others who personally identify as such but probably wouldn't shout it out in the middle of a football game.

Pffh is right, though. Sure, a bunch of privileged (privileged enough to go to school anyway) teenage boys can be real jerks. So can a bunch of privileged teenage girls. Or anyone else. I know it can be tough, but try not to judge "men" and "women" by the people who immediately surround you that have been dumped in together based largely on age and geographical location while souped up on hormonal changes.

And once again Kender helpfully says what I was thinking!

I've been reading this thread about this page and even though it's about GKC I feel it would be more appropriate to ask here; does anyone else detect contempt for hetero-romance? In context it seems to be mainly about the fact that the closest thing to a homosexual relationship is in the "weird" characters, and resentment over feelings that the author is teasing romantic feelings between the two female leads. Am I missing something or what?

I just read that comic last week, and I thought it was great. I didn't really see that what you're suggesting is there, though.


In other news today I became a man. Or something like that. Either way I can now die for my country, but I still can't buy liquor except in pretty much any other country in the world.

[Triscuitable]

That's great. The world needs more male, non-white-knighting feminists!

Well, I had to smack my friend after he went on a homophobic rant right as my friend was approaching (she'd take offense). So, sort of white-knighting. But only in the name of removing *******s from the internet!

Irrelevant, but... This has to be real. It sadly, never will be.



Kirk Hammett, Kurt Cobain, Jimmy Hendrix, and Matt Cameron. Holy crap, that'd be awesome.

[SMEE]

Aye, I am still alive and around.
Just have been a tad too busy with too much stuff lately. I shall be a slight more common sight here during the next few weeks.

[supernerd]

*Glomp!* ^_^

*grabs neck, then pins, proceeding to tickle (no hetero)*

Strength isn't a measure of hardships one's been through. Who you are is no less special or amazing than who each of us is. *Hugs*

~Bianca

Thanks so much *hugs*

I mean I envy people that have to go through pain, hardship, and suffering. I think I might be masochistic. But only slightly, and not in the fetish type of way...

Like my romantic situation makes my heart bleed and I love it. I can't get enough and I don't want to find someone else.

[Dogmantra]

Hi honey I'm hoooooome!

so a certain wonderful lady (and her spouse/hivemind cohabitor) has been telling me that the thread seems to have uh
calmed down from where I left it off and has been nagging me to post so even though I've been watching from the sidelines I feel a bit better posting here now since a lot of the issues I had have made themselves a bit scarce.

big ↓

Spoiler

Show

TAKING PHOTOS IN THE BATHROOM MIRROR MAKES ME ARTSY
(I'm the one on the left with the big earring who is just a head)


so I want to yell about stuff and it's irritating so I'm going to spoiler it in a few different sections:
cissexism ↓

Spoiler

Show

I hate it so much and it is frigging everywhere how hard is it to not be cissexist really? Normally I can laugh at it but like, the other day for whatever reason I was talking with my mother about something which included me referring very specifically to people with vaginas rather than women since not all women have vaginas and whatnot. Anyway she later "corrected" the word "women" which would have been appropriate to "people with vaginas" which was incredibly genital essenitialist and feels like she was mocking me. Also in this conversation I got laughed at when I said that the majority of people who had vaginas are women. Ugh.

dysphoria ↓

Spoiler

Show

so a different time to that last conversation a friend's mother referred to me in a group of "the boys" and I almost cried which was nice and I hate this but I feel bad for wishing I was just frigging cis because I feel like I'm being transphobic :(

also I really really want breasts :S
frigging testosterone I mean seriously what is UP with that guy

therapists ↓

Spoiler

Show

I went to my GP and he is quite a good fella, I am on antidepressants now and he referred me to a gender therapist, I don't suppose any UK LGBTA+ers have heard of Bill Brind? If you have, is he any good? Worth a shot asking I guess. I did a little quick googling and there doesn't seem to be much about him online.

bigots ↓

Spoiler

Show

there are some ridiculously bigoted individuals on my course in college and I have to listen to all the awful things they say and all the terrible videos they watch on youtube with such hilarious jokes as homophobia and transphobia and queerphobia and misogyny and rape and also sometimes racism

since they don't listen to me I should probably bring it up with one of my tutors

the thing that pretty much bothers me the most consistently but isn't that big a deal it's just irritating to keep thinking of it ↓

Spoiler

Show

so like, very nearly everyone looks sweet-ass with short hair but I don't wanna cut my hair because I'm worried it will make it harder for me to be read as female when I actually try presenting so there's that which is ridiculous because WHY IS HAIR LENGTH GENDERED

THAT SHOULD NOT BE A THING WHY IS IT A THING

also there's the fact that if I went to a professional hairdresser I would almost certainly chicken out of telling them that no I am definitely sure I want a "girl's haircut" and to make it look as femmey as possible

these are my problems

[noparlpf]

Hi honey I'm hoooooome!

so a certain wonderful lady (and her spouse/hivemind cohabitor) has been telling me that the thread seems to have uh
calmed down from where I left it off and has been nagging me to post so even though I've been watching from the sidelines I feel a bit better posting here now since a lot of the issues I had have made themselves a bit scarce.

big ↓

Spoiler

Show

TAKING PHOTOS IN THE BATHROOM MIRROR MAKES ME ARTSY
(I'm the one on the left with the big earring who is just a head)


so I want to yell about stuff and it's irritating so I'm going to spoiler it in a few different sections:
cissexism ↓

Spoiler

Show

I hate it so much and it is frigging everywhere how hard is it to not be cissexist really? Normally I can laugh at it but like, the other day for whatever reason I was talking with my mother about something which included me referring very specifically to people with vaginas rather than women since not all women have vaginas and whatnot. Anyway she later "corrected" the word "women" which would have been appropriate to "people with vaginas" which was incredibly genital essenitialist and feels like she was mocking me. Also in this conversation I got laughed at when I said that the majority of people who had vaginas are women. Ugh.

dysphoria ↓

Spoiler

Show

so a different time to that last conversation a friend's mother referred to me in a group of "the boys" and I almost cried which was nice and I hate this but I feel bad for wishing I was just frigging cis because I feel like I'm being transphobic :(

also I really really want breasts :S
frigging testosterone I mean seriously what is UP with that guy

therapists ↓

Spoiler

Show

I went to my GP and he is quite a good fella, I am on antidepressants now and he referred me to a gender therapist, I don't suppose any UK LGBTA+ers have heard of Bill Brind? If you have, is he any good? Worth a shot asking I guess. I did a little quick googling and there doesn't seem to be much about him online.

bigots ↓

Spoiler

Show

there are some ridiculously bigoted individuals on my course in college and I have to listen to all the awful things they say and all the terrible videos they watch on youtube with such hilarious jokes as homophobia and transphobia and queerphobia and misogyny and rape and also sometimes racism

since they don't listen to me I should probably bring it up with one of my tutors

the thing that pretty much bothers me the most consistently but isn't that big a deal it's just irritating to keep thinking of it ↓

Spoiler

Show

so like, very nearly everyone looks sweet-ass with short hair but I don't wanna cut my hair because I'm worried it will make it harder for me to be read as female when I actually try presenting so there's that which is ridiculous because WHY IS HAIR LENGTH GENDERED

THAT SHOULD NOT BE A THING WHY IS IT A THING

also there's the fact that if I went to a professional hairdresser I would almost certainly chicken out of telling them that no I am definitely sure I want a "girl's haircut" and to make it look as femmey as possible

these are my problems

*hugs*
Don't worry about sounding transphobic. From what I understand, no trans person ever doesn't want to be cis.
Also dude what happened to your laser eye? This is like the only picture of you I've seen on this site where you don't have one red eye.

[Lea Plath]

Welcome back and you look great!

What type of short hair you looking at getting?

[pffh]

big ↓

Spoiler

Show

TAKING PHOTOS IN THE BATHROOM MIRROR MAKES ME ARTSY
(I'm the one on the left with the big earring who is just a head)

Well you are cute, even though the camera covers half of your face.

the thing that pretty much bothers me the most consistently but isn't that big a deal it's just irritating to keep thinking of it ↓

Spoiler

Show

so like, very nearly everyone looks sweet-ass with short hair but I don't wanna cut my hair because I'm worried it will make it harder for me to be read as female when I actually try presenting so there's that which is ridiculous because WHY IS HAIR LENGTH GENDERED

THAT SHOULD NOT BE A THING WHY IS IT A THING

also there's the fact that if I went to a professional hairdresser I would almost certainly chicken out of telling them that no I am definitely sure I want a "girl's haircut" and to make it look as femmey as possible

these are my problems

Have you considered bangs? They are quite short and very much feminine and, if I say so myself, quite sexy.

Spoiler

Show

You could also bring a picture with the hair you want to help you assert what kind of hair you want.

[Kindablue]

Couple of really thought provoking pages, folks. Thanks for the read.

Well, I had to smack my friend after he went on a homophobic rant right as my friend was approaching (she'd take offense). So, sort of white-knighting. But only in the name of removing *******s from the internet!

How I've always heard it used, you're only a white-knight if you're standing up for others (women specifically) because you think you're better than them; that they need help standing up for themselves not because their opinion is massively outnumbered, but because they're weak. It's a form of condescension, essentially.

[SiuiS]

Is it normal on meeting Smee to want to make pirate puns?

Anyway, I'll ask again. I'm looking to express my feminine side a bit more, and any suggestions? Bianca suggested dressing up.

Hair clips. Everyone uses hair ties, but clips are a big 'girls only' thing, usually.
Small tokens that work for you that don't have to be visible, like wearing stockings instead of socks. You'd remember every time you felt the change of fabric from usual socks. That sort of thing maybe?

Ohmygosh! That's awesome! As are you!

In December, all I knew was that SRS existed and that some people had it, but now I almost envy how much struggle they have to go through, howmuch pain they have to endure to become themselves, to be who they really are. I nearly envy all their problems, not because they go through them, but because they have the strength to surpass them. I am so overjoyed when they accomplish something they set out to do. I know that sometimes it sucks, sometimes can bring about thoughts of suicide, but the fight is a long, long struggle. And I guess I'm slightly masochistic like that. Would explain my romantic situation and my tendency to dwell on an unrequited attraction.

All struggle, not all triumph. It is human nature, which is a speediest way of saying it is natural for thinking critters.

I don't know. Since quoting this but before actually responding my poetry has left me. The nobility of a struggle is a thing of beauty, I agree. It is in striving, becoming, that things are at their best. But to say you envy Sisyphus so his rock, his struggle against all odds, with never a chance to push it yourself? That feels tactless, insulting. Certainly you will have your own struggles, so I cannot say 'you will never have your own rock' without qualifying that maybe you would be bloke who can never reach the water nor bring to hand the peaches above (or dates or whatever fruit), and certainly Sisyphus would envy such easy punishment as to sit, forever, tied fast.

The grass is always greener. One must be careful to keep perspective. Certainly all I've heard from those who would know is that it is awful, terrible, special hell of the soul confined to the most uncomfortable of trappings. They would not wish it upon the greates most reviled of foes. To say anyway that it is a thing worth envying is missing forest for trees, I believe.

Disjointed; I'm struggling for accuracy, brevity, without being insulting. I hope it works.

On a semi-related note: What do you peeps think of women pretending to be lesbian? I've been finding myself pretending to be a lesbian a lot lately (as opposed to bi/pan, which is true) because it just makes work so much easier. I'm in a mostly male environment. It actually significantly lowers the harassment rate if people think I'm a lesbian, and it just makes me a lot more comfortable knowing that the guys aren't seeing me as a potential partner when I'm not interested. I feel bad about pretending, but...

In general I think it is bad. Disingenuous actions bear I'll fruit, always.
In specific, I think it is bad still, but it is the best response to a bad situation that you didn't start. The best solution would be to remove the need for you to require defense at all, but I believe the feminists and egalitarianists are already hard at work on that.

I wish you luck in whatever endeavor you need it in though. People can be aggravatingly self centered.

I'm sorry but how is using hot women in ads sexist? I mean advertisers use hot people of both genders in their ads because people like to look at hot people.

skipping the rest of the thread for this.

[rant] [long] [trigger warning maybe?]

Spoiler

Show

Hi! I work at a gas station due to a sequence of poor life choices requiring immediate but suboptimal fixing. And one of the things that happens here all the time is a passive insight into people's motivations, because their actions happen in a relative social vacuum and patterns emerge.

We had a year or two ago, a life size cardboard cutout of one of the Raiderettes or whatever the cheerleaders for that team are called. Time and again, folks would comment about it. "how much is she?" "she for sale?" etc. and I looked at her, and wondered. Will she ever have friends who like her for her smarts? Her personality? Maybe she has a biting wit? Or a lilting voice, smooth of timbre and great for storytelling? Perhaps she enjoys old novels? Will anyone care?

She will never be appreciated for her smarts or ideals or personality because the first thing everyone saw was her breasts and short skirt. she wasn't a person to these folks. So I asked people, do you think she's smart? Or funny? The universal answer was discomfort, a pause, and then "all I know is, I'd do her!". I know that for a lot of them it was unthinking, giving me, another guy. The "correct" answer. I would like to think a sufficient amount went home and felt bad, thought about it. Pain is a catalyst for growth. But I know too many thought caring about a woman's personality was a waste.

I had an acquaintance who I distanced myself from specifically for his misogyny. One of his life defining moments was a talk with his father. This is the trigger-y part by the way, so women who like being considered people should probably turn back now

Spoiler

Show

This guy told me about a talk he had with his father at a young age. The dad pulled out a centerfold from a pornographic magazine and pointed at the woman's vuvla. "Son," said he, "This is the [old name for cat]. And this," said he, now gesturing at the rest of the woman, "is what you have to go through in order to get to the [old name for cat]." I assume there was some stated reason why getting into someone's pants was a worthy goal in its own right. I stopped listening, as quite frankly I was sickened and disturbed.

This sort of thing is promulgated as okay, even necessary wisdom for getting through life. Menfolk being conditioned through peer pressure and violence to denigrate women, women the same, only to fit the mold of product, rather than to denigrate themselves. In a way, advertisements where a beautiful woman is shown after having been photoshopped into some strange flawless thing perpetuate this. That's the sticky wicket; no hard-line will ever work. Some ads are fine, and some are terrible and misogynist. Some are terrible and misandrist. And superficially they are all 'just hot chicks in bikinis'.

This is why feminism bothers most guys. They assume a hard line becaus stats what they've been fed; lazy feminism isn't equal rights, it's 'if there must be a top dog, it should be us not them' and it becomes so much easier to rationalize from their. Men aren't on top because they are keeping women down! It's obviously an equal system of vicious violence where the strong will rise to the top. Men being on top just means they are better!

Tiny squabbles amplified to apply on a scale where they cannot rationally hold. And I think I've deviated pretty Far from my point...

I had one surprise though, at that gas station job. I lamented when a customer came in that that poor woman will never be taken seriously, never thought of as smart or funny or - and he cut me off. "they're smarter than you think. I've spoken to her and a couple of the other Raiderettes. They aren't stupid or vapid or whatever." and there was real bitterness in his voice. I'm sure to him, I was just another one of those folks dehumanizing a gal so I could think about her Nekkid without worry.

Advertising sends messages and prompts thought. There are huge wings devoted to how to squeeze the most out of such things,which colors and shades and ratios and composition and layout. This business benefits from the status quo. If the status quo involves misogyny, then it an be easily surmised that the 'science' behind advertising likewise benefits from continuing it.

[Arachu]

PSSS. If it wasn't for you guys and gals and in-between and beyond, and some of those at the Facebook Chat Page, especially my dearest Skeppio, I would feel very alone and life would seem much more pointless.

*Hugs!*

In other news today I became a man. Or something like that. Either way I can now die for my country, but I still can't buy liquor except in pretty much any other country in the world.

Congratulations! You are now somehow different than you were 24 hours ago (and capable of making decisions which you apparently couldn't have way back then).

Irrelevant, but... This has to be real. It sadly, never will be.



Kirk Hammett, Kurt Cobain, Jimmy Hendrix, and Matt Cameron. Holy crap, that'd be awesome.

... Excuse me while I go kick time in the shins until that happened. >.>

*grabs neck, then pins, proceeding to tickle (no hetero)*

Thanks so much *hugs*

I mean I envy people that have to go through pain, hardship, and suffering. I think I might be masochistic. But only slightly, and not in the fetish type of way...

Like my romantic situation makes my heart bleed and I love it. I can't get enough and I don't want to find someone else.

*Hugs*

big ↓

Spoiler

Show

TAKING PHOTOS IN THE BATHROOM MIRROR MAKES ME ARTSY
(I'm the one on the left with the big earring who is just a head)

I love your skirt!

so I want to yell about stuff and it's irritating so I'm going to spoiler it in a few different sections:
cissexism ↓

Spoiler

Show

I hate it so much and it is frigging everywhere how hard is it to not be cissexist really? Normally I can laugh at it but like, the other day for whatever reason I was talking with my mother about something which included me referring very specifically to people with vaginas rather than women since not all women have vaginas and whatnot. Anyway she later "corrected" the word "women" which would have been appropriate to "people with vaginas" which was incredibly genital essenitialist and feels like she was mocking me. Also in this conversation I got laughed at when I said that the majority of people who had vaginas are women. Ugh.

dysphoria ↓

Spoiler

Show

so a different time to that last conversation a friend's mother referred to me in a group of "the boys" and I almost cried which was nice and I hate this but I feel bad for wishing I was just frigging cis because I feel like I'm being transphobic :(

also I really really want breasts :S
frigging testosterone I mean seriously what is UP with that guy

therapists ↓

Spoiler

Show

I went to my GP and he is quite a good fella, I am on antidepressants now and he referred me to a gender therapist, I don't suppose any UK LGBTA+ers have heard of Bill Brind? If you have, is he any good? Worth a shot asking I guess. I did a little quick googling and there doesn't seem to be much about him online.

bigots ↓

Spoiler

Show

there are some ridiculously bigoted individuals on my course in college and I have to listen to all the awful things they say and all the terrible videos they watch on youtube with such hilarious jokes as homophobia and transphobia and queerphobia and misogyny and rape and also sometimes racism

since they don't listen to me I should probably bring it up with one of my tutors

the thing that pretty much bothers me the most consistently but isn't that big a deal it's just irritating to keep thinking of it ↓

Spoiler

Show

so like, very nearly everyone looks sweet-ass with short hair but I don't wanna cut my hair because I'm worried it will make it harder for me to be read as female when I actually try presenting so there's that which is ridiculous because WHY IS HAIR LENGTH GENDERED

THAT SHOULD NOT BE A THING WHY IS IT A THING

also there's the fact that if I went to a professional hairdresser I would almost certainly chicken out of telling them that no I am definitely sure I want a "girl's haircut" and to make it look as femmey as possible

these are my problems

*Hugs* across the board.


~Bianca

[Astrella]

*snip*

It's sorta troublesome balancing between liking something even though it's problematic at times. Great article on this.

I like Womanist Musings because it covers a lot of different forms of discrimination. Feministe is pretty cool too. I'd link more stuff; but most of the stuff I read tends to be more trans*/LGBT+-oriented.

PSSS. If it wasn't for you guys and gals and in-between and beyond, and some of those at the Facebook Chat Page, especially my dearest Skeppio, I would feel very alone and life would seem much more pointless. !

Awwww, hugggsss.

Hi honey I'm hoooooome!

big ↓

Spoiler

Show

TAKING PHOTOS IN THE BATHROOM MIRROR MAKES ME ARTSY
(I'm the one on the left with the big earring who is just a head)

You look lovely. :3

*hugs*
Don't worry about sounding transphobic. From what I understand, no trans person ever doesn't want to be cis.
Also dude what happened to your laser eye? This is like the only picture of you I've seen on this site where you don't have one red eye.

Iunno, depends on what you mean with cis. Like, I'd love to be a cis girl, but I wouldn't just want my dysphoria to disappear. Cause, I wouldn't be me if I wasn't a girl if that makes any sense?

[pffh]

skipping the rest of the thread for this.

[rant] [long] [trigger warning maybe?]

Spoiler

Show

Hi! I work at a gas station due to a sequence of poor life choices requiring immediate but suboptimal fixing. And one of the things that happens here all the time is a passive insight into people's motivations, because their actions happen in a relative social vacuum and patterns emerge.

We had a year or two ago, a life size cardboard cutout of one of the Raiderettes or whatever the cheerleaders for that team are called. Time and again, folks would comment about it. "how much is she?" "she for sale?" etc. and I looked at her, and wondered. Will she ever have friends who like her for her smarts? Her personality? Maybe she has a biting wit? Or a lilting voice, smooth of timbre and great for storytelling? Perhaps she enjoys old novels? Will anyone care?

She will never be appreciated for her smarts or ideals or personality because the first thing everyone saw was her breasts and short skirt. she wasn't a person to these folks. So I asked people, do you think she's smart? Or funny? The universal answer was discomfort, a pause, and then "all I know is, I'd do her!". I know that for a lot of them it was unthinking, giving me, another guy. The "correct" answer. I would like to think a sufficient amount went home and felt bad, thought about it. Pain is a catalyst for growth. But I know too many thought caring about a woman's personality was a waste.

I had an acquaintance who I distanced myself from specifically for his misogyny. One of his life defining moments was a talk with his father. This is the trigger-y part by the way, so women who like being considered people should probably turn back now

Spoiler

Show

This guy told me about a talk he had with his father at a young age. The dad pulled out a centerfold from a pornographic magazine and pointed at the woman's vuvla. "Son," said he, "This is the [old name for cat]. And this," said he, now gesturing at the rest of the woman, "is what you have to go through in order to get to the [old name for cat]." I assume there was some stated reason why getting into someone's pants was a worthy goal in its own right. I stopped listening, as quite frankly I was sickened and disturbed.

This sort of thing is promulgated as okay, even necessary wisdom for getting through life. Menfolk being conditioned through peer pressure and violence to denigrate women, women the same, only to fit the mold of product, rather than to denigrate themselves. In a way, advertisements where a beautiful woman is shown after having been photoshopped into some strange flawless thing perpetuate this. That's the sticky wicket; no hard-line will ever work. Some ads are fine, and some are terrible and misogynist. Some are terrible and misandrist. And superficially they are all 'just hot chicks in bikinis'.

This is why feminism bothers most guys. They assume a hard line becaus stats what they've been fed; lazy feminism isn't equal rights, it's 'if there must be a top dog, it should be us not them' and it becomes so much easier to rationalize from their. Men aren't on top because they are keeping women down! It's obviously an equal system of vicious violence where the strong will rise to the top. Men being on top just means they are better!

Tiny squabbles amplified to apply on a scale where they cannot rationally hold. And I think I've deviated pretty Far from my point...

I had one surprise though, at that gas station job. I lamented when a customer came in that that poor woman will never be taken seriously, never thought of as smart or funny or - and he cut me off. "they're smarter than you think. I've spoken to her and a couple of the other Raiderettes. They aren't stupid or vapid or whatever." and there was real bitterness in his voice. I'm sure to him, I was just another one of those folks dehumanizing a gal so I could think about her Nekkid without worry.

Advertising sends messages and prompts thought. There are huge wings devoted to how to squeeze the most out of such things,which colors and shades and ratios and composition and layout. This business benefits from the status quo. If the status quo involves misogyny, then it an be easily surmised that the 'science' behind advertising likewise benefits from continuing it.

Yeah and I'm not saying that ads with hot women can't be sexist I'm just saying that they aren't necessarily sexist just because they have hot women in them.

Look I'm a feminist. I would have to be stupid not be a feminist and quite frankly it would be insulting to my mother, my sister, my niece and my female friends if I didn't support a change in how women and men are viewed but not all things that include a scantily clad woman or man are sexist. Sometimes they are just sexy and for a large portion of the human race sex is their primary motivator so it sells. Now I agree many of those ads are sexist but say is a bikini ad with a sexy woman sexist? What about the old spice ad with the hot guy is that sexist? I would say no to both of those but for example a dentistry ad with nothing but hot blondes in lingerie now that would be sexist.

[Astrella]

Yeah and I'm not saying that ads with hot women can't be sexist I'm just saying that they aren't necessarily sexist just because they have hot women in them.

Look I'm a feminist. I would have to be stupid not be a feminist and quite frankly it would be insulting to my mother, my sister, my niece and my female friends if I didn't support a change in how women and men are viewed but not all things that include a scantily clad woman or man are sexist. Sometimes they are just sexy and for a large portion of the human race sex is their primary motivator so it sells. Now I agree many of those ads are sexist but say is a bikini ad with a sexy woman sexist? What about the old spice ad with the hot guy is that sexist? I would say no to both of those but for example a dentistry ad with nothing but hot blondes in lingerie now that would be sexist.

Volume; women are objectified to a far larger degree than men.

[pffh]

Volume; women are objectified to a far larger degree than men.

Yes that is true but what does that have to do with anything? Again I'm not saying that women aren't objectified I'm just saying that just because there are hot women in something doesn't automatically make it sexist.

[Triscuitable]

I just realized I linked Damage Inc. to Cobain when I meant to link Endless, Nameless. In other words, I feel like this:

............................................______ __........................
....................................,.-‘”...................``~.,..................
.............................,.-”...................................“-.,............
.........................,/...............................................”:, ........
.....................,?........................... ...........................\,.....
.................../.................................................. .........,}....
................./.................................................. ....,:`^`..}....
.............../.................................................. .,:”........./.....
..............?.....__............................ .............:`.........../.....
............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../........
.........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`..... ..._/...........
..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}...........
...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../............
...,,,___.\`~,......“~.,....................`..... }............../.............
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-”...............
............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\...................
.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__...........
,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|........... ...`=~-,....
.....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\... .....................
...................`=~-,,.\,...............................\............. ..........
................................`:,,.............. .............`\..............__..
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``.......
........................................_\........ ..._,-%.......`\...............
...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................`\..............

[Kindablue]

On the topic of misleading advertisements, this is absolutely amazing.

In recent years, advertisers and magazine editors have been widely criticized for taking digital photo retouching to an extreme. Impossibly thin, tall, and wrinkle- and blemish-free models are routinely splashed onto billboards, advertisements, and magazine covers. The ubiquity of these unrealistic and highly idealized images has been linked to eating disorders and body image dissatisfaction in men, women, and children. In response, several countries have considered legislating the labeling of retouched photos. We have developed a quantitative and perceptually meaningful metric of photo retouching. Photographs are rated on the degree to which they have been digitally altered by explicitly modeling and estimating geometric and photometric changes. This metric correlates well with perceptual judgments of photo retouching and can be used to objectively judge by how much a retouched photo has strayed from reality.

[supernerd]

*hugs Arachu*

All struggle, not all triumph. It is human nature, which is a speediest way of saying it is natural for thinking critters.

I don't know. Since quoting this but before actually responding my poetry has left me. The nobility of a struggle is a thing of beauty, I agree. It is in striving, becoming, that things are at their best. But to say you envy Sisyphus so his rock, his struggle against all odds, with never a chance to push it yourself? That feels tactless, insulting. Certainly you will have your own struggles, so I cannot say 'you will never have your own rock' without qualifying that maybe you would be bloke who can never reach the water nor bring to hand the peaches above (or dates or whatever fruit), and certainly Sisyphus would envy such easy punishment as to sit, forever, tied fast.

The grass is always greener. One must be careful to keep perspective. Certainly all I've heard from those who would know is that it is awful, terrible, special hell of the soul confined to the most uncomfortable of trappings. They would not wish it upon the greates most reviled of foes. To say anyway that it is a thing worth envying is missing forest for trees, I believe.

Disjointed; I'm struggling for accuracy, brevity, without being insulting. I hope it works.

Thanks. I'm just really stupid sometimes. And I show an extreme lack of tact on a good portion of the time.

[Reluctance]

so a different time to that last conversation a friend's mother referred to me in a group of "the boys" and I almost cried which was nice and I hate this but I feel bad for wishing I was just frigging cis because I feel like I'm being transphobic :(

also I really really want breasts :S
frigging testosterone I mean seriously what is UP with that guy

I hear if you defeat another woman in ritual combat, her ovaries are now yours. Just putting the thought out there.

Spoiler

Show

This guy told me about a talk he had with his father at a young age. The dad pulled out a centerfold from a pornographic magazine and pointed at the woman's vuvla. "Son," said he, "This is the [old name for cat]. And this," said he, now gesturing at the rest of the woman, "is what you have to go through in order to get to the [old name for cat]." I assume there was some stated reason why getting into someone's pants was a worthy goal in its own right. I stopped listening, as quite frankly I was sickened and disturbed.

Something funny happens when you stop looking at women who are only white, young, cis ... basically, attractive, and functionally straight. Men use dirty tricks to the degree that men are pursuers. When women pursue, they're just as happy to use dirty tricks. And a quick look around fandom tumblrs shows that objectification is alive and well across all segments of the population.

(Is it feminist to say "men and women are pretty much alike - and they're all jerkwads"?)

As for miss cardboard cutout, it literally is a two-dimensional brainless thing. Trying to guilt-trip people for not caring about the personality of a person they're unlikely to ever meet in person sounds rather sanctimonious to me. If you have to complain, at least do it at a con. Booth babes are there in person.

Aside to Kitty: I'm pretty utilitarian, so I don't care what you call yourself, just so long as you don't mess the label for other people. I don't give a toss if you call yourself a jew, just so long as your behavior doesn't make things hard for other jews who enter the picture later.

Still, I'd suggest slightly less subterfuge. Mention that you're E-flirting with someone, make sure it's someone with a feminine name. I'm sure some playground ladies will be happy to stand in for you. If people assume you're gay from that, it's on their heads. If they ask if you're gay or bi, that's a mark in their favor and you can probably be open-minded. And if you do end up with a guy, the fact that you never came out and said "lesbian" yourself gives a buffer of plausible deniability. Not an ideal move, but one that minimizes the bad.

[Arachu]

Woah... I think I just drank a whole quart of milk in less than 30 minutes. I don't have a stomachache or anything. @_@

I just realized I linked Damage Inc. to Cobain when I meant to link Endless, Nameless. In other words, I feel like this:

............................................______ __........................
....................................,.-‘”...................``~.,..................
.............................,.-”...................................“-.,............
.........................,/...............................................”:, ........
.....................,?........................... ...........................\,.....
.................../.................................................. .........,}....
................./.................................................. ....,:`^`..}....
.............../.................................................. .,:”........./.....
..............?.....__............................ .............:`.........../.....
............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../........
.........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`..... ..._/...........
..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}...........
...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../............
...,,,___.\`~,......“~.,....................`..... }............../.............
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-”...............
............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\...................
.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__...........
,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|........... ...`=~-,....
.....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\... .....................
...................`=~-,,.\,...............................\............. ..........
................................`:,,.............. .............`\..............__..
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``.......
........................................_\........ ..._,-%.......`\...............
...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................`\..............

ASCII Deadpool?

Awesome.

*hugs Arachu*



Thanks. I'm just really stupid sometimes. And I show an extreme lack of tact on a good portion of the time.

*Hugs again, then slaps*

I said it before, and I'll say it again; you're awesome. Everyone has awkward moments, it doesn't mean you're stupid.


~Bianca

[Triscuitable]

ASCII Deadpool?

Awesome.


~Bianca

Spoiler

Show

PICARD.

Regardless, made bread. Must retrieve.

[supernerd]

Woah... I think I just drank a whole quart of milk in less than 30 minutes. I don't have a stomachache or anything. @_@

*Hugs again, then slaps*

I said it before, and I'll say it again; you're awesome. Everyone has awkward moments, it doesn't mean you're stupid.


~Bianca

That's an accomplishment!

Also thank you so many times for building my self esteem. You are totally awesome. (I'm thinking about possibly saying "no hetero" because I don't think I'm allowed to say "no homo" yea or nay?)

[Arachu]

That's an accomplishment!

I didn't even realize I was doing it. Have I done that before? How often do I do that? No wonder we run out so quickly (and I've only had, like, one cavity in my life despite terrible childhood hygiene).

Also thank you so many times for building my self esteem. You are totally awesome. (I'm thinking about possibly saying "no hetero" because I don't think I'm allowed to say "no homo" yea or nay?)

Well, I guess you could say "no homo" but it wouldn't make too much sense.

I built your self-esteem?... I, I never thought I'd hear someone say that. Thanks.


~Bianca

[SiuiS]

Yes that is true but what does that have to do with anything? Again I'm not saying that women aren't objectified I'm just saying that just because there are hot women in something doesn't automatically make it sexist.

Yes, but saying they are all not sexist is as wrong as saying they are all sexist. That's the point.

That's an accomplishment!

Also thank you so many times for building my self esteem. You are totally awesome. (I'm thinking about possibly saying "no hetero" because I don't think I'm allowed to say "no homo" yea or nay?)

I don't know what either of those things mean.

Something funny happens when you stop looking at women who are only white, young, cis ... basically, attractive, and functionally straight. Men use dirty tricks to the degree that men are pursuers. When women pursue, they're just as happy to use dirty tricks.

This also makes me sad but did not seem as directly relevant to the point I was responding to. Everyone being equally jerkish just lends itself towards a 'why bother' attitude.

As for miss cardboard cutout, it literally is a two-dimensional brainless thing. Trying to guilt-trip people for not caring about the personality of a person they're unlikely to ever meet in person sounds rather sanctimonious to me. If you have to complain, at least do it at a con. Booth babes are there in person.

You misconstrue. I'm not concerned someone will take him a cardboard it out and punch a fun-time hole in it. I also never inflicted guilt on anyone, so you've lost me there. And wouldn't complaining to someone who chose to get a job being eye candy be in poor taste? I think you missed the spirit of my point.

[Mystic Muse]

Are female hormones (For hormone reassignment) likely to make me retain more weight than I currently do?

[Arachu]

Spoiler

Show

PICARD.

Regardless, made bread. Must retrieve.

[ASCII foot-in-mouth]

In my defense, I totally saw something that had Deadpool looking exactly like that (though it was probably drawn by fans >.>)...

Are female hormones (For hormone reassignment) likely to make me retain more weight than I currently do?

Possibly. According to the bits of Wikipedia I looked at way back, estrogen makes it more difficult to gain or lose weight. I think I'll give it another once-over, and see if I can't Google up another resource...


~Bianca

[KenderWizard]

I wish I could talk about gender issues and similar topics without becoming political about it...

But I will try.

In Sweden, kindergartens (at least the municipal ones) now have to follow "gender pedagogics" (= genuspedagogik, dunno if I'm using the correct word for it in English). While this for good intentions, there are some stuff I take issue with. For example that some kindergartens are more "extreme" than others, like forbidding and taking away toy cars and dolls, because those are "gendered" toys, and that's bad, m'kay?

There are other stuff I have problem with, but writing about them require me to use big words that will probably give me infraction points.

That's the difference between enforced-gender-neutral (which doesn't work very well and is basically impossible to do unless you keep the child in a controlled environment all of the time) and gender-diverse, where there are cars and dolls and all children are encouraged to play with whatever they want, no "girl's toys" or "boy's toys" just "children's toys".

And once again Kender helpfully says what I was thinking!

Also happy birthday!


@Dogmantra:

Hope things are getting better. *hugs* To focus on one thing, your classmates sound pretty awful, and if you have the option to explain to your tutor how it's making you feel, that sounds like a good idea to me.

Yes that is true but what does that have to do with anything? Again I'm not saying that women aren't objectified I'm just saying that just because there are hot women in something doesn't automatically make it sexist.

No, but nobody really said that. I came closest by saying that some of the guys I know don't want feminism to take away the hot women in bikinis in ads. Maybe I should have elaborated (or left that line out). I mean they specifically want gratuitous sexualised images of women on ads for totally unrelated things, like food products.

Specifically, there were some really bad ads a while ago. It actually happened twice (two different sports), the same company (selling snacks) used highly sexualised images of women posing in very skimpy approximations of sports uniforms, with blatant single entendres (pretty close to CHECK OUT HER BOOBIES) and a little picture of the snack in the bottom corner. This wasn't women who happened to be hot playing sport, this was explicitly models posing in a sort of "Imagine if women played sport, it'd be so hot to have them, like, lean over, and kick in their tiny miniskirts so you could see their panties" etc. Annnnyway, I complained about the ads to the Advertising Standards Authority, and posted on facebook the link to their online form because I knew some of my friends also wanted to complain. Instant backlash. Also, at a con AGES later, one of my friends told some people that "it was Kender who got those ads taken down!" (turned out he was using it as an example of me being feminist, which he thought was a good thing) but I got loads of
Random guy: "Hey, S says you got those ads taken down, what a joke he is, right?"
Me: "Well, I didn't do it single-handedly, but I was one of the people who complained."
Random guy: "WHAT?! BUT THE SEXY WIMMINZ I WANT TO LOOK AT THEM PRETENDING TO PLAY SPORTS!!"

[Heliomance]

I'm fond of just showing up to work in a skirt now and then.

Okay, I haven't done that.

But I totally would if I owned a skirt that met uniform requirements.

There was a guy at the Nationals (At least, I assume he was a guy - he was obviously physically male with no effort made to hide this) that spent the weekend wearing skirts. Apparently he's quite a fixture.

Cross-posted from GitP on Facebook:

I'd be up for helping you with this.

Um, guys/girls/etc?... I just looked in a mirror... And saw a girl. And she didn't mutate into a 'feminine male' - even when I leaned closer!

... It is so hard not to spam smileys right now. This must be what a "sugar rush" feels like.


~Bianca

You go girl! Congratulations and hugs!

Problem is, there's a lot of things to change in our preconceptions and our idea of "normal". An example: Why have we decided that the female body is inherently more beautiful than the male?

Because the male body is kinda ugly and silly looking :/

Iunno, depends on what you mean with cis. Like, I'd love to be a cis girl, but I wouldn't just want my dysphoria to disappear. Cause, I wouldn't be me if I wasn't a girl if that makes any sense?

Much as I get annoyed by my genderfluidity, if it were to settle, I think I'd almost prefer it to settle on female. Is that weird?

[The Succubus]

I think this feminism thing is actually starting to sink into my brain and is even showing up in my gameplay. I'm playing through Final Fantasy V again and it suddenly dawned on me that I'd set the two women in the group as a Knight and a Monk and had the two guys as a White Mage and Thief, in a reversal of traditional roles.

It does make me wonder though - why is it that fantasy roles have always pegged women as squishy (and often scandalously under-dressed) caster times that have to have magic in order to be strong?

We need more Femiknights!

EDIT: .....and the first person to mention the whole "chainmail bikini" thing is going to get a sharp poke from a pointy stick.

[Mono Vertigo]

Sooooo in a few hours/tomorrow, we'll know if a friend successfully managed to buy us tickets for Lady Gaga's concert in Paris. I'm very indifferent to her, but BF is a fanboy. So if we both got tickets, I'll accompany him. I really, really hope he at least gets his.

It does make me wonder though - why is it that fantasy roles have always pegged women as squishy (and often scandalously under-dressed) caster times that have to have magic in order to be strong?

Because women are squishy in real life and more intellectual. They're often white mages too, because having a pair of X chromosomes makes you more compassionate. In addition, they are connected to spiritual forces of Mother Nature, more so than men who incarnate power, science and determination. When they're thieves, that is because they are more agile than men, and women who are not naturally nice do need a job where their subtlety will be appreciated.
*cleans mouth fingers and keyboard with soap*
Don't make me do that again, please.

"Spiritual forces of Mother Nature" my [REDACTED]. I've seen so many women who are so into spiritual crap and believe they're naturally spiritual because they have a WOMB and nature is LIFE and FERTILITY and they're more SENSIBLE and they can disregard SCIENCE and bluh bluh bluh.