OOTS #850 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't accept that their training time before the arena was at all a test of their respective skills. First, Belkar was only joking, not trying to hurt Roy, just annoy him. Second, they were using wooden swords, and Belkar got in 8 strikes before Roy retaliated. In a real fight, with real weapons, Belkar could easily have won.

Plus there's the issue of Belkar's build not actually being able to do much damage compared to Roy's (Small size, Small weapons which are also daggers, racial strength penalty and no strength-boosters meaning Belkar's maximum possible strength is 22), the fact that they were both guaranteed to hit virtually every time due to medium-to-high attack bonuses and no armor to speak of, and the fact that Roy is overall a more competent fellow than Belkar. Even at their C&LG-stated respective minimum levels, I have no trouble believing that Roy could lay the hurt on Belkar.

[Forikroder]

I don't accept that their training time before the arena was at all a test of their respective skills. First, Belkar was only joking, not trying to hurt Roy, just annoy him. Second, they were using wooden swords, and Belkar got in 8 strikes before Roy retaliated. In a real fight, with real weapons, Belkar could easily have won.

except Belkar was fighting for real and Roy wasnt until he got angry and did enough damage with a wooden sword to one shot belkar

[FujinAkari]

D&D ignorance here.

Normally, all players on T's team would get XP from his defeating OOTS, right?

Assuming he does not want the LG to get that XP, is it affected by proximity or distance to the action?...hence he's riding ahead?

Is it affected by T's either false adherence or a possible last second defection?

Thanks for your patience.

As Kish said, D&D really has no mechanics in place to figure out experience for non-player characters.

However, ignoring that, D&D most certainly does not penalize characters for being farther away. Being an archer doesn't result in an XP penalty or anything like that. Everyone actively engaged in a battle, regardless of their actual actions, will get experience if the battle is won.

[sims796]

except Belkar was fighting for real and Roy wasnt until he got angry and did enough damage with a wooden sword to one shot belkar

Really? I coulda sworn Belkar was just pissing off Roy (since Roy wasn't fighting back, it couldn't have been a fight) until Roy decided to actually hit back. Eh, I guess I was wrong.

[sgtpimenta]

I don't accept that their training time before the arena was at all a test of their respective skills. First, Belkar was only joking, not trying to hurt Roy, just annoy him. Second, they were using wooden swords, and Belkar got in 8 strikes before Roy retaliated. In a real fight, with real weapons, Belkar could easily have won.

Could he? This is, if I may say, just speculation of your part. I have yet to see a single strip that shows Belkar's martial superiority over any colleague but Elan.

And the fact that Belkar was annoying Roy doesn't prove that he wasn't fighting for real. On the contrary, one could say that he was trying his best to prove himself worthy to fight in the arena. I'm with Forikroder here.

And the wooden swords? Both of them were using it, so no big advantage to any side here.

The fact remains that he defeated Belkar (with one single hit), and his performance was considered impressive enough to get him a hot date with the champion.

[Forikroder]

Really? I coulda sworn Belkar was just pissing off Roy (since Roy wasn't fighting back, it couldn't have been a fight) until Roy decided to actually hit back. Eh, I guess I was wrong.

belkar was trying to show the organizers how tough he was by fighting seriously

[Kish]

I don't accept that their training time before the arena was at all a test of their respective skills. First, Belkar was only joking, not trying to hurt Roy, just annoy him. Second, they were using wooden swords, and Belkar got in 8 strikes before Roy retaliated.

These arguments appear to be trying to have it both ways. They were using wooden swords and Belkar wasn't seriously trying to kill Roy, so Roy one-shotting Belkar doesn't count; Roy's failure to respond to Belkar's attacks until Belkar had hit him eight times means Roy is weaker than Belkar.

[zimmerwald1915]

These arguments appear to be trying to have it both ways. They were using wooden swords and Belkar wasn't seriously trying to kill Roy, so Roy one-shotting Belkar doesn't count; Roy's failure to respond to Belkar's attacks until Belkar had hit him eight times means Roy is weaker than Belkar.

I don't think the point is to argue that Belkar could have taken Roy, or vice versa, in an actual fight. Both sides of this argument are trying to make a larger point about Roy's and Belkar's levels based on the sparring scene. The one side argues that since Belkar could hit Roy several times, Belkar would have a decent chance against Roy in an actual fight, and therefore Belkar could easily be higher level than Roy. The other side argues that since Roy smacked Belkar down in one hit, Roy must be equal or higher level than Belkar.

Neither side of that argument has good evidence. Since both combatants were unarmored and both had respectable base attack bonuses, virtually all their hits were guaranteed to land even taking into account the to-hit penalty for using improvised weapons. That Roy was able to do a bunch of nonlethal damage to Belkar in one hit speaks to his strength and to his use of Power Attack, which are the primary contributors to his damage, not to his level. Roy's level impacts his to-hit, in the form of BAB, not his damage. This is why it is believable that a level 12 Roy could do what we saw Roy do to a level 16 Belkar.

The sparring match scene is a good indicator of Belkar's minimum level because it shows that he gets four attacks with his primary hand - that is, from his BAB. It is not a good indicator of Roy's minimum level, because nothing we saw him do indicates that he was a higher level than we had evidence for prior to that scene.

[Math_Mage]

These arguments appear to be trying to have it both ways. They were using wooden swords and Belkar wasn't seriously trying to kill Roy, so Roy one-shotting Belkar doesn't count; Roy's failure to respond to Belkar's attacks until Belkar had hit him eight times means Roy is weaker than Belkar.

At most it shows that Roy can Power Attack for lots of damage, and that Belkar is level 16 (or higher, but that's unlikely). The fact that Belkar wasn't trying doesn't mean Roy's one-shot means nothing, and the fact that Belkar got to hit Roy first cannot mean anything more than that Belkar won initiative, and may well mean nothing at all, considering that Roy didn't want to fight.

[sims796]

At most it shows that Roy can Power Attack for lots of damage, and that Belkar is level 16 (or higher, but that's unlikely). The fact that Belkar wasn't trying doesn't mean Roy's one-shot means nothing, and the fact that Belkar got to hit Roy first cannot mean anything more than that Belkar won initiative, and may well mean nothing at all, considering that Roy didn't want to fight.

That's what I mean. All we know out of that scene is that Roy could hit hard enough to one-shot Belkar, something I had no doubt about to begin with. We can keep saying that Belkar was "fighting seriously", but that means nothing considering the fact that Roy was not fighting during that time, until Roy took the Belkster out with a quick shot.

[Kaulguard]

Like I say, thin gruel. For all we know, Roy spent his turn saying, 'Ow, cut it out!' and not attacking. C&LG saw this as a reason to jump Belkar 3 completely unjustified levels. I'm not buying it. V? Sure. Haley? Ok, I'll bite. But other than a single arena workout scene with a guy who said repeatedly that he didn't want to fight, we have...heh... 0.00 reason to think that B is higher than 13th lvl. Is all I'm sayin.

[Forikroder]

Like I say, thin gruel. For all we know, Roy spent his turn saying, 'Ow, cut it out!' and not attacking. C&LG saw this as a reason to jump Belkar 3 completely unjustified levels. I'm not buying it. V? Sure. Haley? Ok, I'll bite. But other than a single arena workout scene with a guy who said repeatedly that he didn't want to fight, we have...heh... 0.00 reason to think that B is higher than 13th lvl. Is all I'm sayin.

talking is a free action

[sgtpimenta]

The sparring match scene is a good indicator of Belkar's minimum level because it shows that he gets four attacks with his primary hand - that is, from his BAB. It is not a good indicator of Roy's minimum level, because nothing we saw him do indicates that he was a higher level than we had evidence for prior to that scene.

Maybe, but there's a information in the sparring match scene that you are not considering: the organizers' reaction. We were told that the warden divides the prisioners in two groups: those who put on a good fight, and those who put on a great show dying. And, based solely in aforementioned scene, they decided that Roy was one of the best warriors available.

I'll admit that the strip, by itself, doesn't tell us Roy's exact level, but it says something about his power. If you add the fact that Belkar was trying to show the scheduling dudes how extra-awesome he was, and Roy, on the other hand, was trying the opposite approach, then things don't look too great for the Belkster...

Like I say, thin gruel. For all we know, Roy spent his turn saying, 'Ow, cut it out!' and not attacking. C&LG saw this as a reason to jump Belkar 3 completely unjustified levels. I'm not buying it. V? Sure. Haley? Ok, I'll bite. But other than a single arena workout scene with a guy who said repeatedly that he didn't want to fight, we have...heh... 0.00 reason to think that B is higher than 13th lvl. Is all I'm sayin.

Couldn't agree more. I don't pretend to know the exact level of no one in the OotS - and really don't think it matters (if this was so important, the Giant would tell it) - but I don't think anyone can say that Belkar is higher level than Roy.

[Kaulguard]

talking is a free action

Seriously? Look, I know you don't know me, but I've played D&D since 1980. I know that talking is a free action. If I'm actually playing a game, and one of my buddies is jacking around doing subdual, showing off, it is CONCIEVABLE that I might not attack on my turn, right? I might just say 'Ok, enough already, that hurts.'. And then, on the next turn, if he won't stop... I'll lay a beat down on him. I don't understand the desire to just argue for the sake of it. I mean, am I really being so unclear?

[Forikroder]

Seriously? Look, I know you don't know me, but I've played D&D since 1980. I know that talking is a free action. If I'm actually playing a game, and one of my buddies is jacking around doing subdual, showing off, it is CONCIEVABLE that I might not attack on my turn, right? I might just say 'Ok, enough already, that hurts.'. And then, on the next turn, if he won't stop... I'll lay a beat down on him. I don't understand the desire to just argue for the sake of it. I mean, am I really being so unclear?

the only thing unclear is why people are even trying to guess there levels, its impossible it just cant happen theres no way to ever accurately tell what level a character is unless the giant explciatly states there level any debate about what level they are or arent is worthless and just a waste of time its like trying to argue what a cloud looks more like or if the glass is half full or half empty

[sgtpimenta]

the only thing unclear is why people are even trying to guess there levels, its impossible it just cant happen theres no way to ever accurately tell what level a character is unless the giant explciatly states there level any debate about what level they are or arent is worthless and just a waste of time its like trying to argue what a cloud looks more like or if the glass is half full or half empty

Ha!

I can totally relate to that. But, the thing is, people come to web forums to waste time. I know that I do just that. That's the whole point, really.

Just embrace it.

[Kaulguard]

Well, if conversations about levels bother you, I am at a loss to explain why you are hip deep in one. But, fair enough. I will, out of consideration for you, hereafter direct my thoughts towards those that ARE interested in that conversation, and ignore any impulse I may feel to respond to you as though you are in that conversation yourself. Since you aren't.

Now, someone around here said that the OOTS has come from levels 7-9 to where they are now. Didn't they all start the comic at 10th?

[Forikroder]

Ha!

I can totally relate to that. But, the thing is, people come to web forums to waste time. I know that I do just that. That's the whole point, really.

Just embrace it.

dont talk to me abotu wasting time

if were going to waste our time we should be arguing about things that actually matter like tarquins plan or sabines relationship with nale or the IFCCs grand plan something substantial instead of something that there is literally no information about like the OoTS levels

and it doesnt matter what level they are, when has the hero being weaker then the villain ever stopped him from killing him?

[Mr. Pants]

For some reason, Durkon is the only one that hasn't been injured...

[Forikroder]

For some reason, Durkon is the only one that hasn't been injured...

wow good catch, someones been sneaking some cure wounds

[Kish]

Now, someone around here said that the OOTS has come from levels 7-9 to where they are now.

As per the FAQ, yes.

Didn't they all start the comic at 10th?

Even if you had the tiniest scrap of an indication of that, which you don't, it still wouldn't be anywhere near enough dings to make your sweeping Always A Ding For A Level claims true.

[Kaulguard]

Well, I've already backed off of that statement. C&LG has them at 10 in comic #1, so that is a ill scrap there...

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe, but there's a information in the sparring match scene that you are not considering: the organizers' reaction. We were told that the warden divides the prisioners in two groups: those who put on a good fight, and those who put on a great show dying. And, based solely in aforementioned scene, they decided that Roy was one of the best warriors available.

I'll admit that the strip, by itself, doesn't tell us Roy's exact level, but it says something about his power. If you add the fact that Belkar was trying to show the scheduling dudes how extra-awesome he was, and Roy, on the other hand, was trying the opposite approach, then things don't look too great for the Belkster...

After BAB becomes high enough that hitting is virtually a guarantee, level, for the purpose of judging the power of two melee builds, almost ceases to matter. What begins to matter more is damage potential, feats, and ingenuity. As a fighter, Roy has more feats at level 12 than Belkar, as a Ranger/Barbarian, has at level 16. As a greatsword-wielding power attacker with no racial strength penalty, Roy has more damage potential than Belkar, a two-weapon fighter who fights with daggers, and has a racial strength penalty. And as Miko would put it, perhaps Belkar would like to compare his and Roy's respective Intelligence modifiers? The only advantages Belkar has over Roy are his ability to hit a lot of times in one round (we assume, for the purpose of counting attacks-per-round, that one panel equals one round; see for reference Miko's silent fight with Hinjo), his superior mobility (barbarian fast movement and apparently a decent number of points in Jump), and, for the purposes of catching the attention of the judges, a sense of showmanship and self-promotion bordering on attention-whoring. This last, of course, backfires when he gets shut down hard by a single power attack from Roy.

Roy does not need, based on how D&D adjudicates melee combat when hitting is virtually guaranteed to both parties, to be higher level than Belkar in order to seem like the better warrior to the judges. He could, in fact be several levels lower. He could even be several levels lower and still actually be a far superior warrior, the judges' opinions notwithstanding. As I understand it there are several PO melee builds that come online before level 10 that could bring Belkar down in less than five rounds, and while Roy isn't optimized by any stretch of the imagination, he's certainly not anti-optimized the way Belkar is, and is an all-around more competant individual. There is no basis to the argument that Roy must be near or above Belkar's level in order to seem or to be a better warrior than Belkar, except a gut feeling and a misinterpretation of the D&D rules.

[sgtpimenta]

Well, if conversations about levels bother you, I am at a loss to explain why you are hip deep in one. But, fair enough. I will, out of consideration for you, hereafter direct my thoughts towards those that ARE interested in that conversation, and ignore any impulse I may feel to respond to you as though you are in that conversation yourself. Since you aren't.

I second that. If one is not willing to waste time in this discussion, one shouldn't be in this thread. There are a lot of other threads that one may judge more worthy of time-wasting. Frak, anyone can create a new thread to begin a whole new discussion, if one have something interesting to add about things that actually matters.

There is no basis to the argument that Roy must be near or above Belkar's level in order to seem or to be a better warrior than Belkar, except a gut feeling and a misinterpretation of the D&D rules.

I will never have my opinion based in a alleged correct interpretation of the rules. The Giant himself has already said that the D&D rules don't matter so much as they used to do. That ship has sailed.

I'm just saying that Roy is clearly more powerful than some of his colleagues. It makes sense, IMO, that this superior power means he have more levels.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have yet to see evidence in the contrary to that.

[zimmerwald1915]

I will never have my opinion based in a alleged correct interpretation of the rules. The Giant himself has already said that the D&D rules don't matter so much as they used to do. That ship has sailed.

I'm just saying that Roy is clearly more powerful than some of his colleagues. It makes sense, IMO, that this superior power means he have more levels.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have yet to see evidence in the contrary to that.

My argument is precisely that Roy can be both more powerful and lower level than Belkar. This is true both in a universe where the rules matter, and in a universe where the rules do not matter. In a universe where the rules matter, I have shown that Roy's level would have no meaningful impact on whether Roy would be able to do what we saw him do to Belkar in the sparring scene. In a universe where the rules do not matter, well, then, it's pointless to discuss levels at all, isn't it? In neither universe is it necessary for the narrative, or for Roy's personal power to be explained, that Roy be higher level than Belkar.

Now, Roy has not demonstrated that he is of equal to or higher level than Belkar (for instance, by taking four attacks in a round). And that's fine. I'm perfectly happy with Roy having fewer levels, and greater personal power, than Belkar. It doesn't strain my suspension of disbelief in the slightest. I am somewhat perplexed that some people find it difficult to believe that Roy can simultaneously be stronger and lower-level than Belkar, and sufficiently bored to attempt to disabuse them of that notion, but ultimately their choosing to cling to a universe where power directly correlates to character level is no skin off my back.

[Forikroder]

I second that. If one is not willing to waste time in this discussion, one shouldn't be in this thread. There are a lot of other threads that one may judge more worthy of time-wasting. Frak, anyone can create a new thread to begin a whole new discussion, if one have something interesting to add about things that actually matters.

this thread has the best arguments the other ones are more boring then this one hgaving to deal with the odd level argument isnt that bad

I will never have my opinion based in a alleged correct interpretation of the rules. The Giant himself has already said that the D&D rules don't matter so much as they used to do. That ship has sailed.

I'm just saying that Roy is clearly more powerful than some of his colleagues. It makes sense, IMO, that this superior power means he have more levels.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have yet to see evidence in the contrary to that.

Roy was probably the only one to go toe to toe with miko the best

after she fell the fight was pretty much one sided, sinc eher falling wouldnt negatively affect her combat abilities aside from her losing her healing and smite evil the fact ath roy harmed her more then pretty much everyone else combined and pressured her enough to make her want to retreat certainly speks volume for how much he can do with his greatsword instead of an old branch

[Warren Dew]

Well, I've already backed off of that statement. C&LG has them at 10 in comic #1, so that is a ill scrap there...

Seriously?

It seems to me Vaarsuvius' first use of disintegrate on the young black dragon shows pretty strongly that he is then level 11. If he had started at level 10, that means he helped clean out an entire dungeon, and had some additional adventures besides, while gaining only one level.

That just doesn't seem very credible to me. Starting levels in the 7-9 range seem more likely.

[Forikroder]

Seriously?

It seems to me Vaarsuvius' first use of disintegrate on the young black dragon shows pretty strongly that he is then level 11. If he had started at level 10, that means he helped clean out an entire dungeon, and had some additional adventures besides, while gaining only one level.

That just doesn't seem very credible to me. Starting levels in the 7-9 range seem more likely.

we know beyond a shred of a doubt that he gained 2 levels in the dungeon (technically one level in the dungeon and one shortly after but thats jsut splitting hairs), however we dont know that he was lvl 11 when he fired disentagrate he could have been higher

[Math_Mage]

we know beyond a shred of a doubt that he gained 2 levels in the dungeon (technically one level in the dungeon and one shortly after but thats jsut splitting hairs), however we dont know that he was lvl 11 when he fired disentagrate he could have been higher

Indeed, C&LG has her at level 12 at that point.

[zimmerwald1915]

Seriously?

It seems to me Vaarsuvius' first use of disintegrate on the young black dragon shows pretty strongly that he is then level 11. If he had started at level 10, that means he helped clean out an entire dungeon, and had some additional adventures besides, while gaining only one level.

That just doesn't seem very credible to me. Starting levels in the 7-9 range seem more likely.

The first time we see Vaarsuvius level up was in comic 12. This level is significant in that it must be an odd level, because Vaarsuvius mentions gaining a new spell level. The question is, is Vaarsuvius leveling up from 6 to 7, from 8 to 9, or from 10 to 11 at that point? Well, by the Battle of Azure City, we know that Vaarsuvius was precisely level 13. We know this because she can cast Grasping Hand. It's how she restrained Charmed Belkar. We also know that she could mass-buff only thirteen soldiers. Prior to this, we saw Vaarsuvius level up twice: once at the Small Town Inn before heading into Wooden Forest, and once in the Dungeon of Dorukan itself - in strip 12. However, counting backwards from the Battle of Azure City, counting only on-panel level-ups, leaves us with a level-up scheme that looks like this:

12 =>13: Small Town Inn
11 => 12: Dungeon of Dorukan

This doesn't make sense, because we know that the level V gained in the Dungeon of Dorukan was an odd-numbered level. So there must have been a level gained off-panel. Conveniently, the OOTS spent a couple days off-panel traveling from Cliffport to Azure City, and we know that they encountered a roc during that time. Assuming one off-panel level-up leaves us with a level-up scheme that looks like this:

12 => 13: Post-Roc
11 => 12: Small Town Inn
10 => 11: Dungeon of Dorukan

This is perfectly consistent with what we know of the Order. They started mid-level, and they leveled to 13 before the Battle of Azure City. The lower-level you want them to have started, however, the more off-panel level-ups you demand, and the harder they become to justify, since we spent most of our time watching the Order. For instance:

12 => 13: Post-Roc
11 => 12: Somewhere on the Road to Azure City
10 => 11: Somewhere in Wooden Forest, Pre-Dragon
9 => 10: Small Town Inn
8 => 9: Dungeon of Dorukan

This runs up against difficulties in the comic's stylistic changes, however. Prior to War and XPs, we were shown explicit level-ups, in the Dungeon of Dorukan, at the Small Town Inn, and on the Mechane (which takes place at the same time the rest of the Order would be escaping the roc). After War and XPs, we were not shown explicit level-ups until Elan mentioned having "finally leveled up yesterday". Assuming a bunch of off-panel level-ups prior to War and XPs projects backwards into the comic's history a style that it did not have at the time. Was the style change for the better? Probably. But projecting it backwards is not useful or, really, intellectually honest.