The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[Draken]

so…

they would need BOTH magic and silver to hurt me? as in, it makes the requirements to over come it more complex?

hrm, that actually makes sense. I thought it was an "OR" thing.

I like to think I am not one of those clueless designers who actually hands out an option that makes you actively weaker while taking up space in your sheet.

[ShadowFireLance]

Hehe, Going to use this in a 20th level getsalt with ozodrin, horror themed, this is going to be fun. The Anathemic abilities made everything awesome.

[Lateral]

By the way, I should probably mention that, at this point, I've played three evolutionists, with another on the way. Granted, only one of those is in a campaign that's currently still alive, and the other two previous ones were both in gestalt and MASSIVELY overpowered. (The new one's also in gestalt, but I'm pretty sure there's no possibility of this one being ridiculously powerful, given the support nature of the character.)

[Draken]

By the way, I should probably mention that, at this point, I've played three evolutionists, with another on the way. Granted, only one of those is in a campaign that's currently still alive, and the other two previous ones were both in gestalt and MASSIVELY overpowered. (The new one's also in gestalt, but I'm pretty sure there's no possibility of this one being ridiculously powerful, given the support nature of the character.)

Evolutionist does weird things in gestalt. I am fully aware of this.

Care to share the builds and some anecdotes?

[Kapskaen]

I absolutely love this class. I recently finished running some players through an epic campaign (or more accurately, the epic phase of a campaign that started at level 1 some two years ago, but anyway) and a number of my encounters were made more interesting by adding a few levels of Evolutionist to the mix, but two encounters especially stand out for me, both of which were encountered early on.

The first was a Plant pure Evolutionist 26, who had maximised BAB, saves, and HP, before taking 4 2d6 damage tentacles with 20ft reach, poisonous thorns, improved grab, constrict, DR and ER. For amusement's sake, I added Spores, Solar Burst and Solar Blast. Then, taking Epic Extra Teratomorphism twice, it had Roots, Solar Power III, Offensive Roots, Mobile Roots, Regrowth, and Dire Body. It was only when I attacked them with 12 tentacle attacks and a beam made of light that it occurred to me that I'd accidentally made Venusaur. If only there'd been a way to replicate razor leaf...

The second one had 20 levels of Evolutionist, 1 Fighter (the jiriku remix version that gains Barbarian abilities), and 5 Warshaper. It was originally a Shifter that took the Giant perfection, along with 3 size increase teratomorphs and dire body. Slam, bash, crush, maul, I absolutely pumped everything into Slam damage. I also gave it a tail, rock throwing and a breath weapon just to make a proper Oozaru. What surprised me, however, was when it managed to utterly kill one of my players with a pair of 12d6, Strength 60 slam attacks (there may have been a critical in there, I don't remember now). Of course, being high levels, him being dead didn't stick, but it sure gave the players a fright.

[EdroGrimshell]

Resin [Extraordinaire]
Prerequisites: -
Ability Score: Constitution
Benefit: The evolutionist can produce resin as a standard action. Resin is a useful substance that can be used as raw materials for any form of crafting skill, and also as has other potential uses. The evolutionist can produce resin a number of times per day equal to his mutator level plus his constitution modifier.
Used as a crafting material, each portion of resin is worth 5 gold and the time needed to craft the item is halved. It cannot be used to craft magical items, only mundane objects. Items made of resin are as strong as their steel counterparts, but they also recover one hit point per hour when damaged and may make fortitude saves even if not held by a creature.
The resin can also be shot at a 5 ft. surface or at a medium creature as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A surface covered in resin is considered difficult terrain, however, the DC to climb any such surface is lowered by 10. A creature covered in resin becomes entangled, and must succeed on an escape artist (same DC as a save against mutations) check to free itself, or take a minute to get out of the resin.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per three mutator levels, each time it is taken, the gold value of each individual portion of resin increases by 5 gold, the square area covered by a resin shot increases by 5 feet and the maximum creature size that can be affected by a resin shot increases by one size category.

Question about this mutation: can you only use the resin or can you mix it with other materials?

On another note, I'm noticing no Ooze mutations, most of the standard mutations can be fluffed as such, but there isn't any ascendancy, perfection, or specific mutations or teratomorphisms for the archetype. I'd love to see it, personally.

[Draken]

Question about this mutation: can you only use the resin or can you mix it with other materials?

On another note, I'm noticing no Ooze mutations, most of the standard mutations can be fluffed as such, but there isn't any ascendancy, perfection, or specific mutations or teratomorphisms for the archetype. I'd love to see it, personally.

Sigh. Once per semester.

The Ooze type offers too much by itself for me to give it out as a basic option for ascendancy (quite a few immunities, most of which are baked into Amorphous), and at the same time it simply lacks enough conceptual space for me to make an entire special mutation list for it (Oozes iconically do the following: they secrete acid, they use a special type of swallow whole, they are amorphous and they make rogues sad, all of these capabilities can be found in the standard mutation list).

Furthermore, to me anyway, Ooze, along with Animal and Vermin, are by no means improvements in creature type, since all of these types have default intellect limitations as such, I feel like characters in the game world would consider these creatures to be at the very bottom of the evolutionary ladder.

My recommendation for ooze players is to pick the three amorphous teratomorphisms and go either Aberration or Elemental Ascendant.

-------

And resin does not need to be the only thing you use in any given craft check, if you chose to use it.

[EdroGrimshell]

The Ooze type offers too much by itself for me to give it out as a basic option for ascendancy (quite a few immunities, most of which are baked into Amorphous), and at the same time it simply lacks enough conceptual space for me to make an entire special mutation list for it (Oozes iconically do the following: they secrete acid, they use a special type of swallow whole, they are amorphous and they make rogues sad, all of these capabilities can be found in the standard mutation list).

I realize, I even said that in the last post. It was just a note that, obviously, has been asked before.

Furthermore, to me anyway, Ooze, along with Animal and Vermin, are by no means improvements in creature type, since all of these types have default intellect limitations as such, I feel like characters in the game world would consider these creatures to be at the very bottom of the evolutionary ladder.

And yet some see animals, vermin, and oozes as superior because of their simplicity. All three have their place, and all three have traits that are in the basic mutation list. Could make one called primeval that does roll ooze and vermin together that only gives an ascendancy and perfection trait. Maybe perfection would be something akin to being a swarmshifter. It'd be an interesting take.

My recommendation for ooze players is to pick the three amorphous teratomorphisms and go either Aberration or Elemental Ascendant.

A good baseline, yes, and quite possibly the best option for that sort of thing, just a comment that I thought might be a good variant because of those cults that believe oozes are perfect in their simplicity. That sort of thing.

And resin does not need to be the only thing you use in any given craft check, if you chose to use it.

Nice, I like this option a lot more then

[Swok]

Just want to make sure I understand how the ability score increasing mutations work: At sixth level, an evolutionist could only have one instance of say, powerful form? and could they also not take it before level six?

[Draken]

Just want to make sure I understand how the ability score increasing mutations work: At sixth level, an evolutionist could only have one instance of say, powerful form? and could they also not take it before level six?

You can take any given mutation a number of times equal to a fraction of your mutator level (by all means class level), rounding said fraction up.

So for Powerful Form, a 1/6 mutation, you can take it one time if you are level 1-6, up to two times once you hit level 7, up to a third time any point after reaching 13, a fourth time once you are level 17, etc.

[Swok]

You can take any given mutation a number of times equal to a fraction of your mutator level (by all means class level), rounding said fraction up.

So for Powerful Form, a 1/6 mutation, you can take it one time if you are level 1-6, up to two times once you hit level 7, up to a third time any point after reaching 13, a fourth time once you are level 17, etc.

Thank you for the reply.

[DrunkenMists]

Question About:

Vestigial Wings
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist develops organs or limbs that aid in aerial movement, these give him a +5 bonus on all jump checks and increase any fly speed he has by 10 feet. For every instance of this mutation taken, the evolutionist’s maneuverability improves by one step.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per five mutator levels[/SPOILER]

Does Further Mutations past the First of this one Add JUST maneuverability or does it also add +10ft Fly speed and +5 Jump?

[Draken]

Question About:


Does Further Mutations past the First of this one Add JUST maneuverability or does it also add +10ft Fly speed and +5 Jump?

It improves everything.

[Necroticplague]

For all the stat-improving mutations, how specific is a "[stat] based check"? I'm trying to make a character with dex and strength of those, and was just wondering what it applied to. Does it only apply to ability checks (i.e., breaking rope)?What about ability based skill checks? The same untrained? what about attack rolls or saves?

[Draken]

For all the stat-improving mutations, how specific is a "[stat] based check"? I'm trying to make a character with dex and strength of those, and was just wondering what it applied to. Does it only apply to ability checks (i.e., breaking rope)?What about ability based skill checks? The same untrained? what about attack rolls or saves?

First of all.

Gosh, they add a new spoiler tag but can't add a quote tag.

Powerful Form
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains a +1 bonus on all strength based checks and skill checks and his strength increases by 2.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken up to once per six mutator levels.
Special: Unlike other innate mutations, Powerful Form is not suppressed when the evolutionist is not in his natural shape.

A check in this case refers to an ability check or a skill based on strength. This benefit applies to strength checks to break manacles, doors (basically to break stuff). It doesn't apply to attack rolls, but it does help with trips and bull rushes, for instance. It also benefits climb and jump, of course.

I am a proponent that the Dexterity version applies to initiative, which is called out as a dexterity check. This differs from an attack roll because an attack roll is not an ability check, it merely receives an ability modifier according to a few circumstances.

[Necroticplague]

First of all.

Gosh, they add a new spoiler tag but can't add a quote tag.



A check in this case refers to an ability check or a skill based on strength. This benefit applies to strength checks to break manacles, doors (basically to break stuff). It doesn't apply to attack rolls, but it does help with trips and bull rushes, for instance. It also benefits climb and jump, of course.

I am a proponent that the Dexterity version applies to initiative, which is called out as a dexterity check. This differs from an attack roll because an attack roll is not an ability check, it merely receives an ability modifier according to a few circumstances.

Ithink I got it, it was the addition of "based" that threw me off, just one probing question:

Why would combat maneuvers get the bonus but not melee attacks? Both of those are bab+str+1d20+/- size penalty/bonus.

Then again, the character is a grappler, so it's to my advantage (hitting a touch attack isn't too hard).


EDIT: Nevermind, I looked up "check" in the glossary and realized why: attacks and saving throws are not checks, everything else is a check.

[Draken]

Ithink I got it, it was the addition of "based" that threw me off, just one probing question:

Why would combat maneuvers get the bonus but not melee attacks? Both of those are bab+str+1d20+/- size penalty/bonus.

Then again, the character is a grappler, so it's to my advantage (hitting a touch attack isn't too hard).


EDIT: Nevermind, I looked up "check" in the glossary and realized why: attacks and saving throws are not checks, everything else is a check.

Not "combat maneuvers". Trip attempts and Bull Rushes explicitly call for a Strength check as part of them. Grapple checks are different, the grapple check is a modified attack roll, not an ability check.

[Necroticplague]

Not "combat maneuvers". Trip attempts and Bull Rushes explicitly call for a Strength check as part of them. Grapple checks are different, the grapple check is a modified attack roll, not an ability check.

The fact it says it is "like an attack roll" actually helps argue it is effected, since if it is like one, that means it isn't one. to quote the section you are thinking of:

Grapple Checks
Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Or for possible less ambiguity, let's look under the definition of grapple check:

An opposed check that determines a character's ability to struggle in a grapple. Grapple check = 1d20 + base attack modifier + Strength modifier + special size modifier (+4 for every size category larger than Medium or -4 for every size category smaller than Medium).

Note this definition lacks both any reference to attack rolls, and explicitly calls it out as an oppose check.

[Owrtho]

Furthermore, to me anyway, Ooze, along with Animal and Vermin, are by no means improvements in creature type, since all of these types have default intellect limitations as such, I feel like characters in the game world would consider these creatures to be at the very bottom of the evolutionary ladder.

And yet some see animals, vermin, and oozes as superior because of their simplicity. All three have their place, and all three have traits that are in the basic mutation list. Could make one called primeval that does roll ooze and vermin together that only gives an ascendancy and perfection trait. Maybe perfection would be something akin to being a swarmshifter. It'd be an interesting take.

A good baseline, yes, and quite possibly the best option for that sort of thing, just a comment that I thought might be a good variant because of those cults that believe oozes are perfect in their simplicity. That sort of thing.

Just a thought on this, but perhaps the best route here would be a PRC built around the idea that true perfection of form is found in simplicity, and that attempting to become more complex to reach perfection is an effort in futility, as complexity simply adds more points of possible failure. Might make it possible to enter at level 6, and have two main paths being vermin and ooze. While most of the primary abilities for these can be accomplished via other mutations, there may still be some few taken to the extreme variations that may be used. The culmination of the class could fit as being a swarm form or gaining the swarm subtype, since in the case of vermin it fits being lots of smaller parts making the whole (or to put it simple an actual swarm) and in the case of an ooze, the traits of a swarm could be fluffed as a highly fluid body (being counted smaller, able to flow around others. As oozes generally are an acid or base of some sort the automatic attack on people in the same square along with possible status effects). In exchange might add limitations to what other mutations can be taken, or possibly limit the number of different mutations. That said, I am a bit behind on what all evolutionists can do now given how long it's been since I looked, and this may seem like a better idea than it is due to exhaustion. Oh well.

Owrtho

[DrunkenMists]

TL;DR Version:

Spoiler

Show

Lix Lorn's Swarm Class might be better option for Swarms/Vermin; Evolutionist is a little more biased between 1 powerful being; even the prc seems a little more geared towards 1 power being and one or two expendable powered beings.
Evolutionist = Superhero; Swarm/Vermin = Zombie Apocolypse
Average Superhero could probally take on the Zombie Apocolypse; but it would be a slow going war of attrition; superhero might give up..or die before the end.

It might be a little more that evolutionist is a little bit more based along "better, faster, Stronger" where Vermin and Swarms tend to be based on "MOAR! MOAR TO INFINITY!! MWAHAHA!" (Yes; I'm highly aware thats probally a over-generalization/simplification.) Lix-Lorn made a class I beleive thats a bit more thematically placed along the idea of the swarm becoming stronger.

The issue I see with this class is somewhat how would a swarm/vermin effect be part of the class; without changing how the class works as a whole.

Swarm: the idea of a swarm; is alot of little creatures effectively being "overpowering" to things larger than it. a Fly itself isn't all that annoying or scary. but send 100-1000 at a person; it's almost guarenteed to be a OMFG!!!! *RUN AWAY!*. The only way I could see this being somewhat working is it allows you to spread your evolutions to other creatures; I think that the OP already made a PRC along this lines? Get say..a Rat; send it over a dex, Barbs evolution and let it be a roaming shooter?. Not sure how well that would work power wise; but it could be an interesting concept.

Vermin: Like Draken mentioned; it almost kinda seems a step back; your either kinda falling back into a weaker form of creature (assuming 1 creature; and not a bit of a swarm going) or your having to rely on the concept of a swarm; and evolutions being spread through the swarm in either a watered down version..or spread all around.

[Draken]

I would also like to point you towards the Ancient Teratomorphisms for a small hurdle into using swarms as a capstone for a separate prc.

I mean, it could be done. Animal/Ooze/Vermin prc, following more or less the same recipe as the Worldshaker. Special abilities would just be harsh to think out.

[Milo v3]

Was it intended that you can't have a huge warforged transform into a car or truck or whatever with Baseline Structure Reconfiguration?

As written it doesn't count teratormorphisms, so it would only let you be medium sized stuff.

[Draken]

Was it intended that you can't have a huge warforged transform into a car or truck or whatever with Baseline Structure Reconfiguration?

As written it doesn't count teratormorphisms, so it would only let you be medium sized stuff.

You can transform into any medium object and then your teratomorphisms would adapt your size accordingly.

This limitation is mostly because of creatures, not objects. With objects you can always make a scale version of what you want to turn into and do just that. Sounds like a copout? Sure does, but you can do it.

[adversityarchit]

I have a few questions as to how to interpret some of these combinations of mutations.

"The evolutionist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, he may treat unarmed strikes as grouped natural weapons (as many as he has fists or analogous limbs to use) or as manufactured weapons as he prefers."

"Thorns [Innate]
...Short thorns grow on the evolutionist’s body. These thorns work as Armor Spikes, and also increase the damage of the evolutionist’s other natural weapons and unarmed strikes by one, as well as causing them to deal piercing damage in addition to any other type of damage."

"Rend
Prerequisite: Any pair of slashing or piercing natural attacks"

Does the above work? Can I take Rending for my unarmed strikes if I have the Thorns mutation? As the Improved Unarmed Strike class feature is worded, it is unclear whether the evolutionist can actually treat his unarmed attacks as natural weapons for the purposes of mutation prerequisites, or if it's only possible to do so in terms of combat.

Another one:

"Proboscis [Innate]
...The evolutionist may only add half of his strength modifier to the damage of the proboscis; however, whenever he damages a living creature with it, he heals a number of lost hit points equal to the damage dealt."

"Elemental Attack
...The evolutionist may choose one type of natural weapon he has, all attacks made with that natural weapon deal an extra 1d6 points of damage of an energy type of the evolutionist’s choice."

Firstly, do the above stack so that additional damage caused by elemental attack would translate to additional healing from the proboscis?

Secondly, where it says choose one type, does that mean if I chose claws, each claw would deal 1d6 additional elemental damage? Would this stack with Rending and be included in the additional damage granted by that?

[Draken]

I have a few questions as to how to interpret some of these combinations of mutations.

"The evolutionist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, he may treat unarmed strikes as grouped natural weapons (as many as he has fists or analogous limbs to use) or as manufactured weapons as he prefers."

"Thorns [Innate]
...Short thorns grow on the evolutionist’s body. These thorns work as Armor Spikes, and also increase the damage of the evolutionist’s other natural weapons and unarmed strikes by one, as well as causing them to deal piercing damage in addition to any other type of damage."

"Rend
Prerequisite: Any pair of slashing or piercing natural attacks"

Does the above work? Can I take Rending for my unarmed strikes if I have the Thorns mutation? As the Improved Unarmed Strike class feature is worded, it is unclear whether the evolutionist can actually treat his unarmed attacks as natural weapons for the purposes of mutation prerequisites, or if it's only possible to do so in terms of combat.

Another one:

"Proboscis [Innate]
...The evolutionist may only add half of his strength modifier to the damage of the proboscis; however, whenever he damages a living creature with it, he heals a number of lost hit points equal to the damage dealt."

"Elemental Attack
...The evolutionist may choose one type of natural weapon he has, all attacks made with that natural weapon deal an extra 1d6 points of damage of an energy type of the evolutionist’s choice."

Firstly, do the above stack so that additional damage caused by elemental attack would translate to additional healing from the proboscis?

Secondly, where it says choose one type, does that mean if I chose claws, each claw would deal 1d6 additional elemental damage? Would this stack with Rending and be included in the additional damage granted by that?

In order:

1. That line means your unarmed attacks count as natural weapons. Yes.

2. Thorns makes your unarmed attacks into piercing/bludgeoning natural attacks.

3. Rend can be taken for Unarmed Strike in such a situation.

4. Proboscis only heals for its base damage.

5. Rend does not apply the extra damage from elemental attack.

[adversityarchit]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification!

One more thing - can an Evolutionist with the Nourish and Bounty mutations from the Plant list eat his own produce and gain the healing/benefits of it?

Oh and before I forget, when applying the Karish template to a creature, do I have to use the feats the base creature comes with and additional HD add more, or can I just give it feats based on HD effectively allowing me to replace feats it has normally?

[Draken]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification!

One more thing - can an Evolutionist with the Nourish and Bounty mutations from the Plant list eat his own produce and gain the healing/benefits of it?

Oh and before I forget, when applying the Karish template to a creature, do I have to use the feats the base creature comes with and additional HD add more, or can I just give it feats based on HD effectively allowing me to replace feats it has normally?

1. Yes.

2. Up to how your DM decides that. Same as it would be with animal companions or special mounts.

[Milo v3]

Oh and before I forget, when applying the Karish template to a creature, do I have to use the feats the base creature comes with and additional HD add more, or can I just give it feats based on HD effectively allowing me to replace feats it has normally?

Aren't Karish Companions originally vermin? There are no feats on the base creature.

[adversityarchit]

Several of the 1HD vermin I checked for possible Karish had feats like Weapon Finesse and Diehard. But I'm playing Pathfinder so maybe they are different?

One more question, and this is an interesting one. If I have the following:

Negaton Touch [Supernatural]

...The evolutionist chooses one natural weapon he has, that natural weapon deals additional negative energy damage equal to 1d6 + half his mutator level. In addition, the evolutionist can, instead of making a normal attack, make a touch attack with the any limb that received negaton touch, dealing only the damage from negaton touch if he does this. Touch attacks made with this mutation are considered attacks made with the natural weapon that received it.

As well as Negative Energy Affinity... can I use a touch attack on myself to heal myself for d6? At any time?

[Draken]

Several of the 1HD vermin I checked for possible Karish had feats like Weapon Finesse and Diehard. But I'm playing Pathfinder so maybe they are different?

One more question, and this is an interesting one. If I have the following:

Negaton Touch [Supernatural]

...The evolutionist chooses one natural weapon he has, that natural weapon deals additional negative energy damage equal to 1d6 + half his mutator level. In addition, the evolutionist can, instead of making a normal attack, make a touch attack with the any limb that received negaton touch, dealing only the damage from negaton touch if he does this. Touch attacks made with this mutation are considered attacks made with the natural weapon that received it.

As well as Negative Energy Affinity... can I use a touch attack on myself to heal myself for d6? At any time?

Yes. A simple trick for endless healing. That just so happens to be pretty pointless because Fast Healing is a thing.