3.5 Monster Character ECL/CR

[Adept_Scholar]

A good eve to all. I seek clarification on a matter concerning 3.5 monster ECL/CR. While browsing the 3.5 M.M.I, it gives an example of a 4th level barbarian minotaur being a ECL 12 (6 for minotaur HD, 4 for barbarian, and 2 for level adjustment) on page 290. In contrast, on page 38 in the 3.5 D.M. Guide it gives an example of a 7th level centaur ranger being a CR 8 (7 for ranger & 1 for the centaur's original CR). Which of these is correct when determining a monster character's ECL/CR? For example, if the D.M.'s rule is used, then the minotaur above would be a CR 8 (4 for barbarian & 4 for CR) and not an ECL of 12. Maybe I am missing something...

[Doug Lampert]

A good eve to all. I seek clarification on a matter concerning 3.5 monster ECL/CR. While browsing the 3.5 M.M.I, it gives an example of a 4th level barbarian minotaur being a ECL 12 (6 for minotaur HD, 4 for barbarian, and 2 for level adjustment) on page 290. In contrast, on page 38 in the 3.5 D.M. Guide it gives an example of a 7th level centaur ranger being a CR 8 (7 for ranger & 1 for the centaur's original CR). Which of these is correct when determining a monster character's ECL/CR? For example, if the D.M.'s rule is used, then the minotaur above would be a CR 8 (4 for barbarian & 4 for CR) and not an ECL of 12. Maybe I am missing something...

CR <> ECL. So what's the problem?

The creature's CR is what you use if it's an enemy, ECL is what you use if it's a cohort or PC.

CR for creature's with PC class levels is horribly, horribly broken. (If built even vaguely competently such creatures are often vastly more dangerous than their CR would indicate.) But that's OK.

ECL is often higher than anyone sane would consider it worth, but that's fine since you're not forced to use the rule.

[Starbuck_II]

A good eve to all. I seek clarification on a matter concerning 3.5 monster ECL/CR. While browsing the 3.5 M.M.I, it gives an example of a 4th level barbarian minotaur being a ECL 12 (6 for minotaur HD, 4 for barbarian, and 2 for level adjustment) on page 290. In contrast, on page 38 in the 3.5 D.M. Guide it gives an example of a 7th level centaur ranger being a CR 8 (7 for ranger & 1 for the centaur's original CR). Which of these is correct when determining a monster character's ECL/CR? For example, if the D.M.'s rule is used, then the minotaur above would be a CR 8 (4 for barbarian & 4 for CR) and not an ECL of 12. Maybe I am missing something...

CR is for DMs.
CR represents how it is in battle (for difficulty)
ECL is for PCs.
ECL represents how balance as a PC it will be (and EXP gained as higher levels get less XP, a Level 1 Fighter Minotuar (ECL 7) gets less XP than a level 1 6 human Fighter (ECL 6, as the ECL is the actual level of the minotuar).

[Chronos]

The example I use to clarify the difference between ECL and CR is a couple of hypothetical abilities:

Ability 1 is usable at will, and forces one opponent to save or fall asleep. Ability 2 is usable 1/week, and forces one opponent to save or die. Assume both abilities target the same save, have the same DC, the same monsters are immune or not to both, etc. Which ability is stronger?

Well, as a PC, ability 1 would be a lot more useful. I don't care that I'm not killing them outright; a Coup de Grace after battle will take care of that if I need it. And I can use it as much as I want. Ability 2, though, I'd have to hoard until I'm really, really sure that it's the best time to use it. So a template or whatever that gives ability 1 should have a higher LA than one that gives ability 2.

But which of those two would you less like to fight against? If a monster makes you fall asleep, well, that's inconvenient, but your party members will just wake you up after they finish defeating it. But if a monster kills you, that's going to cost you a bunch of diamonds at the minimum, and probably a class level-- That sucks. And the monster that can do that 1/week is almost certainly going to use it on the PCs, since the PCs are almost certainly the hardest fight it'll ever face in its life. So ability 2 should have a higher CR than ability 1.

[Adept_Scholar]

Hmm...Well, I am not wanting to create PC characters, rather NPC monsters with character classes & in need of knowing their min to max CRs. As that is the case, I should lean towards that 4th level minotaur barbarian being a CR 8? I am capping the level in my world to the standard 20 (for players) & max CR of 20 (for monster's with PC levels). So if said minotaur, for example, is CR 8 currently with 4 levels of barbarian, he could have a max of 12 more PC levels which would equal to roughly CR 20 if I am following correctly.

[Adept_Scholar]

Would a 4th level minotaur barbarian be closer to CR 8 or CR 12 for a group of PCs?

[Roguenewb]

The rule presented in the DMG is associated class levels (aka, ones that further a creature's plan) add +1 CR and unassociated class levels add +1 cr/2 levels.

I take offense at this. If you are adding single level of fighter to a 28 HD CR 14 aberration who attacks in melee, you are not increasing it's power by 50%, which is what a +1 CR is supposed to mean! I add +1 CR if the creature is taking an associated level of tier 3 or higher, and has less than 20 HD. For each 10 HD over 20, or tier lower than 3. I divide the CR boost /2

[Yorrin]

The short answer: CR is really hard to use

If you want to make a monster with class levels just call it a +1CR per class level added until you've got a better feel for the system. It's not a perfect correlation by any means, but it work until you've done enough DMing and lurked on these boards enough to know what you're doing.

[Adept_Scholar]

I see. I had forgotten about that rule in the D.M. Guide. I will just go with it and tweak it as necessary, as yes, I am a newer D.M.

[Chronos]

You shouldn't worry too much about the associated/nonassociated distinction, since you probably wouldn't be adding the class level unless it were associated, anyway.

[Sor-El]

So, i have a problem. Looking for a cr in the 11 to 13 area on an Albino Minotaur sorcerer. Focusing on transmutation

[Uncle Pine]

OP, give a read at this: it should help you solve all the problems.

Short answer: ECL = racial HD + class levels. CR = base CR + levels in an associated class + 1/2 levels in an unassociated class + CR modifier from templates. ECL =/= CR.