[PF] Maximizing Bomb Damage?

[RndmNumGen]

I've been playing around with different effects that Alchemists can put on their bombs, but it seems there aren't a whole lot of ways to flat-out enhance them instead of simply altering them. The ways I have found to enhance them seem rather inefficient; for example, it is possible to gain double your INT bonus to damage with Kirin Strike, but that requires A) Three Feats and B) Three Swift actions to even get the benefit on one bomb.

The only thing I found that really seems worthwhile is Targeted Bomb Admixture, but that still takes an action to use and is only really useful when a target is alone(or everyone is really spread out).

Basically, I'm wondering if there are any effective ways to make bombs deadlier, or if I am just stuck with the default Xd6+INT?

[Menteith]

Just focusing on raw damage...

- Half-Orc Favored Class Alternative gives +1/2 Alchemist level to bomb damage.

- Sticky Bomb Discovery causes splash damage to any target hit by a bomb in the round afterwards, which is a significant damage increase. Additionally, the discovery can be used in concert with other bomb discoveries.

- Scrap Bomb Discovery (goblin specific) adds an additional point of damage for every bomb damage die. It appears that this stacks with other bomb discoveries, but the PFSRD may be incorrect, as they've made mistakes about this before.

- Additionally, if you're looking at Goblin, check out the Fire Bomber archetype, for straight damage boosts.

- As you've seen, Targeted Bomb Admixture is the most effective way to boost single target damage. An Eternal Potion of TBA, combined with Congatogens, is going to be the largest damage boost you can find.

The highest potential damage build looks like Goblin Firebomber Mindchemist Alchemist, taking Scrap Bomb, Fast Bombs, Sticky Bomb, and using Targeted Bomb Admixture.

[Corlindale]

An Eternal Potion of TBA, combined with Congatogens, is going to be the largest damage boost you can find.

Slight correction, but you can't use Eternal Potion with TBA, as it's a personal range spell and thus can't be made into a potion.

[Menteith]

Slight correction, but you can't use Eternal Potion with TBA, as it's a personal range spell and thus can't be made into a potion.

Good catch. I generally focus more heavily on the debuffing side of things, and there are more useful Eternal Potion targets that TBA.

Edit

- The Tiefling Favored Racial Alternative for Alchemists is identical to Half-Orcs; if one's DM allows them to pick the bonus they'd receive off the Variant Tiefling Abilities chart, they could potentially start the game with 22 Int, and have +1/2 Alchemist level to bomb damage, on top of an already good race chassis.

- The Pyromaniac Gnome Racial Alternative allows an Alchemist to treat their level for determining bomb damage as one higher.

[grarrrg]

Half-Orcs and Ifrits have a Favored Class bonus of +1/2 bomb damage.
Gnomes (and I think one other) have Favored of +1/2 Bomb/day.

The Crypt Breaker archtype's default bombs deal 1d8 Acid to Constructs and Corporeal Undead, 1d4 all else.

The Defoliant Bomb discovery deals 1d8 vs. Plant types, 1d4 vs. everything else.

Goblins wind up with the most options for increasing damage.
*note: all of the following are Goblin ONLY*
Fire Bomber archetype adds +1 damage per die (fire ONLY) to all affected in the Splash Radius.

Scrap Bomb deals 1 point of Bleed Damage per dice to the targeted victim.

Burn! Burn! Burn! feat adds 1d4 damage to your Bombs (does not apply to splash)

Flame Heart feat treats you as +1 level when determining Fire Bomb damage.

[eggs]

Tiefling race is basically ideal (Dex + Int bonuses, damage as Half-Orc), Deadly Aim works wonderfully with bombs and Sticky Bomb is a decent improvement if you can spare the discovery. Cognatogen is useful too.

[RndmNumGen]

The Crypt Breaker archtype's default bombs deal 1d8 Acid to Constructs and Corporeal Undead, 1d4 all else.

I like that idea... considering using that versus Constructs/Corporeal and possibly Stink Bomb against living targets.

I doubt I'll be able to play a Goblin, though I may be able to run as a Tiefling. Are there any other race-independent ways to boost bombs, though?

[grarrrg]

Half-Orcs and Ifrits have a Favored Class bonus of +1/2 bomb damage.
Gnomes (and I think one other) have Favored of +1/2 Bomb/day.

*note: all of the following are Goblin ONLY*
Fire Bomber archetype adds +1 damage per die (fire ONLY) to all affected in the Splash Radius.

Alright. A more complete listing.

Race-Archetypes

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Gnome, Small, -2S +2C +2R > Saboteur, can take the Bore Bomb (damages Walls/Buildings/etc...) and Complex Bomb (mix two "one per" bomb discoveries). Loses Mutagen and gains "Chameleon Mutagen", which is basically a Stealth Mutagen and does NOTHING for a bomber.

Goblin, Small, -2S +4D -2R > Fire Bomber (as above)

Half-Elf, Medium, +2A > Bramble Brewer, greatly improved Tanglefoot Bombs. Also trades Mutagen for 'Slightly-Different-Mutagen' (Double Nat. Armor, Half Stat Bonus, Fast Healing in bright light).

Ratfolk, Small, -2S +2D +2I > Plague Bringer trades Mutagen for 'Plague Vial'. Basically a Disease oriented Alchemist. Has great Alchemist stats, and while it doesn't add much for Bombs, it doesn't really take anything away either.

Grippli, Small, -2S +2D +2W > Bogborn a rare pure-Upside archetype. And Gripplis can get 1+/day uses of Dex poison as a Racial Trait. A Discovery can make Con poison instead.

Svirfneblin Small -2S +2D +2W -4R > Deep Bomber trades Poison abilities for Silent Bombs, and the ability to inflict Faerie Fire with bombs.

Racial bonuses

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Races with Favored +Bomb Damage
Half-Orc
Ifrit
Tiefling
Vanaras

Races with Favored +Bombs/day
Gnomes (also has Racial Trait for +1 Alch level for Fire Bomb damage)
Hobgoblin
Kobold

Races with +Mutagen Duration (also applies to Conatogen, Plague Vial, etc...)
Damphir
Drow
Orc

Races with +Extracts known
Elf
Halfling
Human
Svirfneblin

Other
Dwarf, +1/4 Natural Armor bonus with Mutagen
Goblin, Fire Resist +1
Grippli, +1/4 day use of Toxic Skin
Half-Elf, +1ft. Range Increment on all Thrown Splash weapons (i.e. Bombs)
Nagaji, +Craft (Alchemy) and +Poison Save DC
Ratfolk, +1/6 Discovery

Notable Discoveries
Precise Bomb does nothing for Damage, but your friends will like you better.
[various] there are various discoveries that change the damage type, and the effected area.

Explosive Bomb larger splash radius, sets Direct target on fire.
Glassfoot Bomb, creates Caltrops (1 damage, 1/2 Movement penalty), that covers the area for 2d6 rounds.
Madness Bomb lose 2d6 damage, gain 1d4 Wisdom Damage
Sticky Bomb direct target takes Splash damage 1 round later
Underwater Demolition, can throw bombs underwater

Notable Feats
Only two worth mentioning.
Extra Bombs, +2/day bombs
Extra Discovery

[Novawurmson]

Tiefling race is basically ideal (Dex + Int bonuses, damage as Half-Orc), Deadly Aim works wonderfully with bombs and Sticky Bomb is a decent improvement if you can spare the discovery. Cognatogen is useful too.

Not really? Deadly Aim does not work on touch attacks, which bombs are.

Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack.

To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.

The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks

[Ravenica]

Not really? Deadly Aim does not work on touch attacks, which bombs are.

Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus.

and thus deadly aim works just fine

[Novawurmson]

But PBS and WF both work with touch attacks - the problem is not that it's weapon-like, the problem is that it's a touch attack.

[Ravenica]

It doesn't say it doesn't apply to RANGED touch attacks ah you might be right but if I were the DM I'd allow it

[RndmNumGen]

It doesn't say it doesn't apply to RANGED touch attacks

Deadly Aim only ever applies to ranged attacks...

[eggs]

Not really? Deadly Aim does not work on touch attacks, which bombs are.

Gah. I remembered something stopping them from working, but I'd chalked it up to a precision damage/deadly aim flavor issue.

And just adding to grarrrg's list, the gnome and half-elf also have archetypes now with some nifty bombing abilities, but neither adds to straight damage.

[grarrrg]

And just adding to grarrrg's list, the gnome and half-elf also have archetypes now with some nifty bombing abilities, but neither adds to straight damage.

Blarg.
Was so focused on all the new stuff for "2nd tier" races that I only glanced at the main ones (my post in question is edited to reflect the ones I missed).

Half-Elves greatly enhances Tanglefoot Bomb's potential. Trades Mutagen for...slightly different Mutagen.

Gnomes can make 'combo'-bombs (combombs?) that can apply TWO 'one per bomb' discoveries at the same time. They can also make Bombs more potent against walls/terrain/etc... Trades Mutagen for "stealth" Mutagen.


For Race Specific archetyeps, Goblin, Half-Elf and Gnome are the best options.
Goblins have +4 Dex, extra damage, and more Feat enhancement options.
Half-Elves have longer Range, +2 Any stat, and better battlefield control.
Gnomes have more bombs per day, and can make Combombs.

[Tokuhara]

Explosive Missile?

Bomb Damage Bonuses on a Goblin-Based Build and you get to enjoy adding a weapon's damage to your bombs

[Menteith]

Explosive Missile?

Bomb Damage Bonuses on a Goblin-Based Build and you get to enjoy adding a weapon's damage to your bombs

Yeah, but you have to hit actual AC instead of Touch, and can't use it in conjunction with Fast Bombs, which are probably a higher damage boost.

[Chained Birds]

Yeah, but you have to hit actual AC instead of Touch, and can't use it in conjunction with Fast Bombs, which are probably a higher damage boost.

At least you can use Deadly Aim now with your bombs.

[grarrrg]

Yeah, but you have to hit actual AC instead of Touch, and can't use it in conjunction with Fast Bombs, which are probably a higher damage boost.

Not if you use Firearms you don't.
Also, if you don't have Cartridges for Free Reloads (can't afford/DM says no/whatever), you'd only be able to Shoot once-per-round anyway.

And yes, Multi-bombs per turn is better damage than One Pistol shot, BUT you have strictly limited Bombs per day, so you'll probably want/have an actual weapon anyway.

[Menteith]

Not if you use Firearms you don't.
Also, if you don't have Cartridges for Free Reloads (can't afford/DM says no/whatever), you'd only be able to Shoot once-per-round anyway.

And yes, Multi-bombs per turn is better damage than One Pistol shot, BUT you have strictly limited Bombs per day, so you'll probably want/have an actual weapon anyway.

I wouldn't say it's strictly limited...by 8th level, assuming that you started with a +5 Int Modifier, are wearing a +2 Int item, and put your stat ups into Int, one should have 15 bombs/day at level 8, which is the earliest one can pick up Fast Bombs. Yeah, you can run out, but it's not something that frequently comes up (at least in my experience).

[Keneth]

I wouldn't say it's strictly limited...by 8th level, assuming that you started with a +5 Int Modifier, are wearing a +2 Int item, and put your stat ups into Int, one should have 15 bombs/day at level 8, which is the earliest one can pick up Fast Bombs. Yeah, you can run out, but it's not something that frequently comes up (at least in my experience).

First off — Assuming you started with Int 20? What kind of ridiculous system are you using that you can afford a max in one stat? Unless you're utterly dumping two stats and enjoy mediocrity in everything else.

Also, 15 bombs/day, according to how most people seem to be playing PF (5+ encounters every day) is hardly a lot, especially if there's a couple of tougher mobs thrown in there. I think "limited" is a fitting word here, it may be enough but it's strictly limited nonetheless.

[panaikhan]

There is a chain of feats that do add damage to bombs (it is specifically listed in the description of bombs - Vital Strike?), but limits you to one per round, and it gives 1D6 per feat.
Precise bomb is a must if you plan to throw into melee, and stacks with explosive bomb to cover a wider area. Talk to your DM about creatures larger than medium and how a bomb interacts with them - making a Huge creature take (Xd6+Int)+((X+Int)x8) or a garganutan one take (Xd6+Int)+((X+Int)x20)is mildly amusing.

Edit - I think the 10'radius misses out the far corners, but I could be wrong

[grarrrg]

Precise bomb is a must if you plan to throw into melee, and stacks with explosive bomb to cover a wider area. Talk to your DM about creatures larger than medium and how a bomb interacts with them - making a Huge creature take (Xd6+Int)+((X+Int)x8) or a garganutan one take (Xd6+Int)+((X+Int)x20)is mildly amusing.

Edit - I think the 10'radius misses out the far corners, but I could be wrong

Precise Bombs is generally very helpful, but it becomes outright mandatory if you use Explosive Bombs.

Splash Weapons (bombs) can only hit any given creature once.
But make your case to your DM, because logically it should do more damage.

And you are correct on 10ft. radius

[Menteith]

First off — Assuming you started with Int 20? What kind of ridiculous system are you using that you can afford a max in one stat? Unless you're utterly dumping two stats and enjoy mediocrity in everything else.

Also, 15 bombs/day, according to how most people seem to be playing PF (5+ encounters every day) is hardly a lot, especially if there's a couple of tougher mobs thrown in there. I think "limited" is a fitting word here, it may be enough but it's strictly limited nonetheless.

Enh, Bomber Alchemists can dump Strength and Charisma without any real issues, and can honestly get by with a low Dexterity (as they have a decent Attack Bonus that only targets Touch, and generally have the option of attacking a square with AC5 if they absolutely need to). Still, drop a Bomb/day if you think it's unreasonable, as sometimes it's just not an option. Bombers are even more Int dependent than Wizards are, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a maxed stat.

15 Bombs/day would be a minimum, and unless you have Fast Bombs, you're not going to run out of those at level 8. And with Confusion Bomb also being a level 8 Discovery (and generally much stronger, as it doesn't allow a Save and utterly shuts down sentient creatures), Fast Bombs isn't a guaranteed assumption. If one runs out of Bombs and is a Mindchemist (which you should probably be on a Bomber unless you wanted the free Precise Bombs from Grenadier), Cognatogen can give emergency access to even more Bombs. In my experience, running out of Bombs is a rare thing.

[eggs]

First off — Assuming you started with Int 20? What kind of ridiculous system are you using that you can afford a max in one stat?

Pathfinder's ability score bonuses and point buy costs make it a fair assumption for "standard fantasy" power levels.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Bomb damage is crap, and the uses are too limited to spam out quickly to achieve some sort of "DPS / DPR" (damage per second/round) build.

Best way to use bombs is with the cloud effects and confusion (which offers no save in return for being single target only compared to the spell) for battlefield control. You're not as good at it as a caster, but you can at least feel useful. Dispelling bomb is ok, I just really hate that you can't choose what to dispel. IIRC, it can actually combine with smoke/stink/poison bomb (can also technically combine w/ confusion bombs, but since you need to do damage to get the confusion...it's not a good idea).

[Menteith]

Best way to use bombs is with the cloud effects and confusion (which offers no save in return for being single target only compared to the spell) for battlefield control. You're not as good at it as a caster, but you can at least feel useful. Dispelling bomb is ok, I just really hate that you can't choose what to dispel. IIRC, it can actually combine with smoke/stink/poison bomb (can also technically combine w/ confusion bombs, but since you need to do damage to get the confusion...it's not a good idea).

This, although I disagree with the notion that Alchemists are bad at BC. I'd put them in the top three classes for it, in Pathfinder. Stink Bomb potentially by level 3, Confusion Bomb effectively shutting down a target without a save, and Tanglefoot Bomb giving a decent Reflex based save or suck are all excellent options, and with Cognatogen the save DCs are fairly high. Splash Weapon Mastery also is invaluable for increasing a bomb's spread.

[Akal Saris]

Unstable Accelerant (50gp, 1/2 lb)

Source Advanced Race Guide

A volatile mix of incendiary reagents, unstable accelerant can be thrown just like alchemist's fire. In the hands of an alchemist, a flask of unstable accelerant can be used as part of creating a bomb, increasing its fire damage by +1d6 points. It has no effect on bombs that do not deal fire damage. If the bomb lasts for more than an instant, the extra damage only applies to the first round's damage.

[Keneth]

Enh, Bomber Alchemists can dump Strength and Charisma without any real issues, and can honestly get by with a low Dexterity

You can, but how exactly are you gonna roleplay that kind of character? Sounds like someone who spends most of their time sitting in a dark room, not walking around the world fighting monsters.

Pathfinder's ability score bonuses and point buy costs make it a fair assumption for "standard fantasy" power levels.

Standard fantasy is 15 points, to get 18 in one stat requires 17 points. If you completely dump two stats down to 7 (± any racial modifiers), you've got 6 points left to distribute to the other three stats. Even with point buy 20, the 11 points you have left leave you with only average stats across the line. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's unfeasible and far from a fair assumption.

My point was, while perfectly doable, that's a mathematical function, not a real character.