Skyrim V: Skyrim

[Avilan the Grey]

Which is a gameplay mechanism - so anyone could join the Stormcloaks without problems.

I guess what side you pick is depending on two things: Role playing and if the player gets offended enough by the intro. Most Let's Plays online seems to be about the latter, most automatically join the Stormcloaks because of the execution issue and then never pay attention to dialogue.

Role playing... Sure that's fine, but that is what keeps me AWAY from then. Even my Patriotic Nord woman is uncertain who to join, mostly because a good 50-60 of all Nords she talks to are FOR the Empire, and as a traveller abroad (before the game starts) she recognizes the political situation for what it is: Get everyone to cooperate or the Thalmor will destroy the world. Literally.

[Milo v3]

I just heard about an acident which affected one of my dads friends.
He just took an arrow to the knee.

My question is, is he now destined to become a guard?

[Tergon]

Which is a gameplay mechanism - so anyone could join the Stormcloaks without problems.

Well of course it bloody is. In fact, guess what?

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All variables in the game are a series of random numbers and you're watching pixels move as a result! Furthermore, all events are scripted and the story is not really happening at all!

Come on, this is like entering a discussion about whether Iron Man could beat Batman and observing that it's a pointless conversation because they're fictional characters. You're being that guy. Don't be that guy.

Besides, even if it is a gameplay mechanism, they could have done it in any way. Add a throwaway line if you're any species but Nord about how you have to prove yourself the equal of a true Nord warrior or something. Instead the writers chose to have Ulfric do and say absolutely nothing that implies he dislikes you less because of your species. He's obviously ambitious and very self-righteous, and I even agree that ultimately if you want to defeat the Thalmor then siding with the Stormcloaks is the wrong choice. But I'm seeing nothing to suggest that he's the bastard that many in-game characters make him out to be.

[DigoDragon]

Well I've decided what I'm going to be doing next. Namely, getting the deadric artifacts I want for my build.

I completed a few of these, and they can make me feel dirty in terms of what I had to do to get the artifacts. I suppose Logrolf had it coming to him, but I still feel bad about Brother Verulus. I think Dawnbreaker is the only artifact I haven't locked away in a box.
I guess some of these Daedric quests can really get me sucked into their moral implications.

[Krazzman]

So I have time to post again.

I am still venturing for the stones of Berenziah. Only got two left, the on in solitude right next to the bards collage i think and the second one in markarth in the museum i think.

I did the quest for mirida... and got a mediocre sword. Whilst trying to get the stone from the Dark Brotherhood (and joining them) I came upon a quest:

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the Whispering door in Whiterun. Anyone knows what to do if you have that sword?

Anyway the Dark Brotherhood accepted me and after 3 Random encounters... I finally was able to join them. I left my dragon bone armor set at my home in riften and put on my nightinggale armor... still running around with my dragon bone shield though. So I try to make my first 3 kills for the family. The first two were quite quick. Fast Travel near them, go to them, pick pocket them, kill them. The third one however was located in dawnstar(?) and after killing her i got a 1000 gold bounty and started to run like hell. I'm now near the mages collage and still can't fast travel... any idea?

Additionally on the mods:
UFO and Jaysus Swords seem to be missing in the steam workshop. But Midas Magic looks awesome... couldn't test it yesterday, maybe i get to it on the weekend.


I think about my next character and can't decide between dual wielding bound daggers with light armor and actually investing in the backstab perk or bound sword with a shield.

[Beowulf DW]

I saw it in a slightly different way. The people of Windhelm clearly despise the Dunmer for the most part. And there's a hell of a lot of folk around Skyrim who have it in for beast races and elves. Whatever else may be true of Ulfric right now, the fact is that if the people of Skyrim turn against him, he'll lose the war. So if the people of Skyrim will support him so long as he puts Nords first, he doesn't really have a choice in the matter. And outside that, all we have for the negative are people who say that Ulfric isn't a nice person based upon things he's done in the past, or things they don't feel he's doing right.
What we do have is his treatment of the Dovahkiin. Even before the Greybeards declare you to be such, you can walk into the Palace of Kings and stand in front of him. You can be a Khajiit, who legally can't be in the city; you can be an Altmer, his hated enemy; you can be an Argonian, treated lower than dirt; you can even be a Dunmer who he's specifically said to hate. The only knoweldge he has is that you were there when he was ambushed and nearly killed by the Imperials, and are at best a criminal. At worst, Ralof might have even reported that you were seen fighting at the side of the Imperials and cut your way through a half-dozen Stormcloaks to escape.
Nobody could fault Ulfric for throwing you out, or even ordering the guards to kill you for being an Imperial spy. Instead, he's willing to give you a chance to prove yourself, and if you do? No matter who or what you are, by the end of the war he'll consider you one of his most trusted officers. At no point does anything else enter into it. The only proof we have of Ulfric's racism and xenophobia are second-hand reports from others, easily justified by the fact that Ulfric desperately needs to gain support from the people of Skyrim who are racist and xenophobic. Beyond that he's actually extraordinarily open-minded and willing to trust you despite some powerfully good reasons not to.

None of this makes Ulfric a good guy, exactly. He's made some questionable calls, done some questionable things, and there's a strong argument that says cutting Skyrim off from the Empire is a terrible long-term move in the battle against the Thalmor. But none of that makes him a villian, either.

I wouldn't call Markarth "questionable" so much as down right evil. Putting children to the sword simply because they didn't fight for you is not a sign of a working moral compass.

[Tergon]

Well, okay, I'll give you that point there. :P Assuming that Arrianus Arius was telling the truth, anyway... he is an Imperial Scholar who seems very pro-Forsworn, and we have to take his word for it, after all. There's not mention of that anywhere else. But yes, if it's true, killing children for not siding with him is a pretty awful thing to do, regardless of any concerns about survivors growing up to further the Forsworn.

[Calemyr]

Ulfric is a prick. Sorry, but that's all there is to it. He wants you because survived a dragon attack, and that makes you valuable, dragonborn or no. If you aren't a nord and aren't useful, he has no time for you. His reign over Windhelm is racist in the highest degree - they isolate non-human races and treat them with contempt if they consider them at all. Ulfric will obliterate any threat to nord citizens but won't raise a hand when non-human races are targeted by bandits and worse. Also his execution of Tullius is stupidly petty - Tullius executes him because he's unrepentant and the war will never end with him in prison, but in this version Tullius surrenders and promises to withdraw and Ulfric just kills him because... just because, I guess. There's no justification for executing someone who is no longer a threat. That right there is one reason I don't sympathize with him.

Of course, he isn't doing it just for the 'evulz', he's got very strong reasons. Just not very good ones. The Thalmor tortured him emotionally, mentally, and physically, and thoroughly to boot. They convinced him that he couldn't trust anyone who wasn't a nord, conditioned him for an "us vs them" mentality, and then set him loose after learning that his father had died in his absence. They built a perfect weapon against the empire. Moreso than they intended, in fact, because Ulfric burned with a charismatic rage and possessed competent leadership ability, enough that he could really be a threat if he beat the Empire.

The Stormcloaks are exactly what the Thalmor wanted. Their vocal insistence on worshiping Talos gave the Thalmor all the excuse they needed to strong-arm the Empire into enforcing the ban. Until the Stormcloaks became active, the ban was just a decree that nobody paid real attention to. The raids, the inquisitions, the breaches of privacy by the Thalmor, that is entirely on the Stormcloaks for inciting, just as the Thalmor intended.

Finally, siding with the Stormcloaks is literally the death of the Empire. The Empire has only five provinces left: Cyrodil, Skyrim, High Rock, Orsinium, and Morrowind (or at least what's left that the argonians haven't taken over). Of them, Skyrim is the only one with land routes to all four other provinces. Without Skyrim, anything left of Morrowind crumbles. Without Skyrim, there's nothing to hold the frankly insane Bretons in check, and nothing keeping Orsinium safe from everyone who wants them wiped out (which is to say, anyone other than the Empire). Remove Skyrim and all that's left of the Empire is Cyrodil.

The Thalmor may be worried about Ulfric, but the Empire was the only faction capable of ever actually fighting them to a standstill. Remove the Empire and the Thalmor win, no matter how much Skyrim might hinder them.

[Triaxx]

I have to say that's pretty much BS. The Bretons are quite crazy and once unleashed the Thalmor are going to have quite enough to deal with, because the Bretons aren't going to wait, they're going to ATTACK, the Summerset Isles. The Thalmor are going to have to pull back from any Imperial and Skyrim holdings.

Now if Skyrim has been resumed into the empire, they'll have the chance to sucker punch them in the back while they're busy with the Bretons.

If not, they can safely reject the White-Gold Concordant, bring Skyrim back into the empire without issue and Sucker Punch the Thalmor.

[Calemyr]

I have to say that's pretty much BS. The Bretons are quite crazy and once unleashed the Thalmor are going to have quite enough to deal with, because the Bretons aren't going to wait, they're going to ATTACK, the Summerset Isles. The Thalmor are going to have to pull back from any Imperial and Skyrim holdings.

Now if Skyrim has been resumed into the empire, they'll have the chance to sucker punch them in the back while they're busy with the Bretons.

If not, they can safely reject the White-Gold Concordant, bring Skyrim back into the empire without issue and Sucker Punch the Thalmor.

The Bretons, from what I've heard and read, don't really care about the Thalmor. They don't give a rat's tail about Talos or the war, they just want to dominate their own little patch of nirn, which includes the Reach. They'd crush Orsinium in a heartbeat, but the Thalmor would have to intentionally start something with them before they'd be a problem on that front. Without the Empire to force them out of themselves, they'll probably destroy each other without any Thalmor influence at all, and the Empire loses one of the biggest magical resources on the continent. Double win for the Thalmor, triple win because they want to see Orsinium wiped out as much as anyone (the orcs are an embarrassment to their claims of racial superiority).

[Tergon]

Let's also consider that if the Thalmor are attempting to end the world, they'll be fighting everyone who doesn't agree with that. Which means, y'know, everyone who's not the Thalmor.

Sure, the Empire might have been the only single entity that could fight the Thalmor to a standstill, but let's assume that Skyrim cecedes from the Empire, Alduin is defeated, and then the Thalmor kick their master plan into action.

First, what's left of the Empire will quite rightly see this as a violation of the White-Gold Concordat. The Thalmor will have to try to put an end to that little uprising. As soon as they do, Skyrim will wade in, with their armies led by the physical God that is the Dovahkiin (who, depending on race and the effects of being Dragonborn, could quite reasonably be alive centuries later even if that's when the Thalmor make their move) and their whole society itching to kick some elven ass. Right beside them will be the march of the Argonian empire, which has been getting more and more powerful by the year, and the Dunmer who they've conquered. Throw in the Orcs wherever their alliegences drive them, remembering that the Altmer despise them as "corrupted elves". The Bretons can be quite cheerfully unleashed on the Altmer to prove who's got the superior magical ability. And as for the Khajiit and the Bosmer, they've been essentially enslaved by the Thalmor - and both of those races specialise in subterfuge, thievery, sneaking and assassination. They're the two races you least want to have scattered all throughout your evil empire, which is exactly what the Thalmor have done.

The Empire was a single entity that could legitimately fight the Thalmor to a standstill... except that they didn't. They lost.
Instead, now there's multiple smaller factions who, upon learning the Thalmor's plans, will drop everything else to crush them. The Thalmor can't even legitimately plot to make their move without anyone knowing, because it's all but certain the Bosmer or Khajiit will be able to find out the details. Instead of fighting one entity in the Empire that could challenge them, the Thalmor will find themselves fighting the remnants of the Empire, the armies of Skyrim and the Dovahkiin, the Argonian Empire, dealing with the unleashed insanity of the Orcs and the Bretons, while a thousand spies and assassins tear them apart from within.

The Empire may be weakened by the loss of Skyrim, but that's a very long way from saying that the Thalmor have a clear shot at victory now.

[Beowulf DW]

I think I must have missed something. Since when are the Bretons crazy?

[Calemyr]

Let's also consider that if the Thalmor are attempting to end the world, they'll be fighting everyone who doesn't agree with that. Which means, y'know, everyone who's not the Thalmor.

Sure, the Empire might have been the only single entity that could fight the Thalmor to a standstill, but let's assume that Skyrim cecedes from the Empire, Alduin is defeated, and then the Thalmor kick their master plan into action.

First, what's left of the Empire will quite rightly see this as a violation of the White-Gold Concordat. The Thalmor will have to try to put an end to that little uprising. As soon as they do, Skyrim will wade in, with their armies led by the physical God that is the Dovahkiin (who, depending on race and the effects of being Dragonborn, could quite reasonably be alive centuries later even if that's when the Thalmor make their move) and their whole society itching to kick some elven ass. Right beside them will be the march of the Argonian empire, which has been getting more and more powerful by the year, and the Dunmer who they've conquered. Throw in the Orcs wherever their alliegences drive them, remembering that the Altmer despise them as "corrupted elves". The Bretons can be quite cheerfully unleashed on the Altmer to prove who's got the superior magical ability. And as for the Khajiit and the Bosmer, they've been essentially enslaved by the Thalmor - and both of those races specialise in subterfuge, thievery, sneaking and assassination. They're the two races you least want to have scattered all throughout your evil empire, which is exactly what the Thalmor have done.

The Empire was a single entity that could legitimately fight the Thalmor to a standstill... except that they didn't. They lost.
Instead, now there's multiple smaller factions who, upon learning the Thalmor's plans, will drop everything else to crush them. The Thalmor can't even legitimately plot to make their move without anyone knowing, because it's all but certain the Bosmer or Khajiit will be able to find out the details. Instead of fighting one entity in the Empire that could challenge them, the Thalmor will find themselves fighting the remnants of the Empire, the armies of Skyrim and the Dovahkiin, the Argonian Empire, dealing with the unleashed insanity of the Orcs and the Bretons, while a thousand spies and assassins tear them apart from within.

The Empire may be weakened by the loss of Skyrim, but that's a very long way from saying that the Thalmor have a clear shot at victory now.

First: Yes, the Thalmor want to break Nirn. They do not advertise the fact, however. They present their hatred of Talos as a matter of racial and religious umbrage, and not many people at all are in a position to piece together that Talos is the only Divine with enough strength left to hold Nirn together, much less that the Thalmor are actively attempting to weaken him so that Nirn falls apart at the seems.

Second: The Empire did, in fact, fight the Thalmor to a standstill. The battle at Red Mountain allowed Mede to turn crippled position into a stalemate, which is why the war ended with the Concordat at all. And the ban on Talos originally didn't have any teeth - Daedra worship is banned in most provinces, but that doesn't stop shrines being erected to them in quiet corners of everywhere. It was only the Stormcloaks that gave the Thalmor the impetus to force the issue. It was a clever bit of tactical diplomacy on their part - require a petty decree that nobody will take seriously, while at the same time arranging an event that will make it enforceable.

Finally: You are right, the other races could work together if they knew what was going on, what is truly at stake. The catch is that they do not, and that the current political climate is such that every race is becoming more isolated, more focused on internal issues and petty squabbles. The Thalmor effectively set up a political climate akin to galactic civilization in the Mass Effect universe - everyone is so caught up in their own plight that it will take a badass among badasses to kick them until they agree to working together rather than trying to save themselves, even after the threat becomes evident.

[Avilan the Grey]

I think I must have missed something. Since when are the Bretons crazy?

Also, the Redguards have already fought the Thalmor to a standstill. Right now. Without the Empire.

[Calemyr]

Also, the Redguards have already fought the Thalmor to a standstill. Right now. Without the Empire.

Not exactly. Hammerfell isn't a high-priority territory for the Thalmor, at least now that they're not allied with the Empire. They took what they could get and stopped when it got annoying. Also there were a surprising number of Legion troops that defected from the Empire to join the Redguard resistance, almost as if they were getting reinforcements under the table, while the Empire could plead innocence. Mede wasn't bowing down and letting the Thalmor have their way, he was trying to match curly thinking for curly thinking.

Also the Bretons have been crazy since Daggerfall. High Rock is like the centerpiece of court intrigue, backstabbing, and plotting. I don't mean to suggest that every Breton is loon, but there's a reason why your last employer in the Dark Brotherhood line is a Breton. Without direct connection to the Empire... well... Washington DC the day before a presidential election would be a less political place. Remember as well that the Forsworn are a splinter faction of the Bretons.

The key thing to remember is that Bretons and Redguard are not Atmorans like the Imperials and Nords are (Bretons have Atmoran blood, but not an Atmoran culture). Talos isn't core to their cultural identity, they don't really care, so they're just a political consideration, not a religious one from the Thalmor standpoint. As such, the Thalmor seek to contain them, to isolate them, not to crush them. Why bother?

[Beowulf DW]

Not exactly. Hammerfell isn't a high-priority territory for the Thalmor, at least now that they're not allied with the Empire. They took what they could get and stopped when it got annoying. Also there were a surprising number of Legion troops that defected from the Empire to join the Redguard resistance, almost as if they were getting reinforcements under the table, while the Empire could plead innocence. Mede wasn't bowing down and letting the Thalmor have their way, he was trying to match curly thinking for curly thinking.

Also the Bretons have been crazy since Daggerfall. High Rock is like the centerpiece of court intrigue, backstabbing, and plotting. I don't mean to suggest that every Breton is loon, but there's a reason why your last employer in the Dark Brotherhood line is a Breton. Without direct connection to the Empire... well... Washington DC the day before a presidential election would be a less political place. Remember as well that the Forsworn are a splinter faction of the Bretons.

The key thing to remember is that Bretons and Redguard are not Atmorans like the Imperials and Nords are (Bretons have Atmoran blood, but not an Atmoran culture). Talos isn't core to their cultural identity, they don't really care, so they're just a political consideration, not a religious one from the Thalmor standpoint. As such, the Thalmor seek to contain them, to isolate them, not to crush them. Why bother?

But the Bretons are a race of half-elves with magical abilities on par with the Altmer. Considering the Thalmor's Nazis-like focus on racial purity and superiority, the very existence of the Bretons should be an affront to them.

[Calemyr]

But the Bretons are a race of half-elves with magical abilities on par with the Altmer. Considering the Thalmor's Nazis-like focus on racial purity and superiority, the very existence of the Bretons should be an affront to them.

Absolutely, if their racial agenda were their primary one. As long as the Bretons aren't advancing Talos, or finding a way to restore Lorkhan or reinvigorate the other Divines, the Thalmor have no problem with them. Oh, they'll spit and decry them, they'll posture and paint the Bretons as petty copies of their glory, but it's all a show, a shell game to keep the world from watching as the other hand undoes the laces holding the world together.

And again, there's no point to making enemies of culture that don't pose a threat to their religious agenda. If Hammerfell or Highrock or Blackmarsh were driven to the point of war, it could hinder their plans. But if their plans succeed, every non-elf everywhere will be blown to Oblivion. So they'll antagonize them, keep everything and everyone uneasy and on edge, but never push them too far. Only Cyrodil and Skyrim need be destroyed, and if they destroy each other all the better.

[Morty]

I've got as far as the peace meeting in the main plot and I haven't done any quests at all for the Empire or the Stormcloaks. I decided that my breton mage probably doesn't give a crap either way. I will have to decide eventually, though.
In news unrelated to the plot, Balanced Magic made combat a lot easier. Maybe even too easy. But after dozens of fights in which I ran around, plinking at the enemy's health and waiting for my Magicka to regenerate, some easy fights are a welcome change.

[Calemyr]

I've got as far as the peace meeting in the main plot and I haven't done any quests at all for the Empire or the Stormcloaks. I decided that my breton mage probably doesn't give a crap either way. I will have to decide eventually, though.
In news unrelated to the plot, Balanced Magic made combat a lot easier. Maybe even too easy. But after dozens of fights in which I ran around, plinking at the enemy's health and waiting for my Magicka to regenerate, some easy fights are a welcome change.

The peace conference is only available if you haven't finished the civil war quest line. Far as I'm concerned the only real reason to do so is to watch Tullius and Ulfric act like jerks and give the Thalmor the finger, even if just a minor one.

[Morty]

Like I said, I just didn't feel like getting my finger in that particular door. It's nice when a game lets you stay neutral, at least for a while.

[The_Jackal]

I wouldn't call Markarth "questionable" so much as down right evil. Putting children to the sword simply because they didn't fight for you is not a sign of a working moral compass.

Hearsay. Arrianus Arius wasn't present during the re-taking of Markarth, so he's only relaying tales told to him by forsworn, and those claims are totally at odds with facts learned by the Dovahkiin in the course of the game.

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For example, in 'The Bear of Markarth', Arius claims that all officials who worked for the forsworn were put to death. Yet we know that many forsworn were sent to Cidhna Mine, including their King! To say nothing of the numerous forsworn still living and working in Markarth at the time when you arrive.

Then there's the issue of Arius' sympathetic portrayal of a people who worship daedra and practice human sacrifice. To say the least, this strains his credibility as an objective chronicler.

Ulfric is a prick. Sorry, but that's all there is to it. He wants you because survived a dragon attack, and that makes you valuable, dragonborn or no. If you aren't a nord and aren't useful, he has no time for you. His reign over Windhelm is racist in the highest degree - they isolate non-human races and treat them with contempt if they consider them at all.

If that's true, then why is one of the hated Aldmer, Niranye, able to run a stall in the market right alongside those 'racist' Nords? The fact is, the Nords of Windhelm are, on the whole, no more or less intolerant of outsiders than the Nords of any other town. Even in Whiterun, the Al'akir are refused entry into the town for no better reason than they are outsiders, which, by the way, is exactly how the Dovahkiin is treated until he convinces the town guard to let him past. Pot, meet kettle.

What's more instructive is what Ulfric's responses when you talk to him about joining the Stormcloaks as a non-Nord. He'll take anyone who will fight for Skyrim as his/her home. He never personally utters an intolerant word, and speaks only of his duty to his homeland and its people.

Ulfric will obliterate any threat to nord citizens but won't raise a hand when non-human races are targeted by bandits and worse.

He's in the midst of a war, and those bandits prey on his own as well. Do you really think that brigands in the hills discriminate between Nords and Khajiit? The fact is, the Stormcloak forces are disposed where they can best throw off the tyranny of the Empire.

Also his execution of Tullius is stupidly petty - Tullius executes him because he's unrepentant and the war will never end with him in prison, but in this version Tullius surrenders and promises to withdraw and Ulfric just kills him because... just because, I guess. There's no justification for executing someone who is no longer a threat. That right there is one reason I don't sympathize with him.

You've got no proof of whether Ulfric would have bent the knee after being captured at Helgen, because Tullius' men just threw a gag on him, and Tullius ordered him beheaded without being able to utter a single word in his defense. Ulfric wasn't even offered the opportunity to surrender, so why should Tullius get the privilege of riding home after causing the deaths of so many valiant Nords, on both sides of the war?

Of course, he isn't doing it just for the 'evulz', he's got very strong reasons. Just not very good ones. The Thalmor tortured him emotionally, mentally, and physically, and thoroughly to boot. They convinced him that he couldn't trust anyone who wasn't a nord, conditioned him for an "us vs them" mentality, and then set him loose after learning that his father had died in his absence. They built a perfect weapon against the empire. Moreso than they intended, in fact, because Ulfric burned with a charismatic rage and possessed competent leadership ability, enough that he could really be a threat if he beat the Empire.

You're reading an awful lot into the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric. More than is really there, in my opinion. They say he broke under interrogation, and that's certainly believable, though they also stipulate that he was 'generally uncooperative' once he was freed. But any conjecture that his rebellion was 'planted' by Thalmor conditioning is a complete fabrication. What's more likely? That he was somehow brainwashed under Thalmor interrogation, or that after having been captured and tortured by the Thalmor, that his suffering for the Empire was rewarded by the abject betrayal of the White-Gold Concordat?

The Stormcloaks are exactly what the Thalmor wanted. Their vocal insistence on worshiping Talos gave the Thalmor all the excuse they needed to strong-arm the Empire into enforcing the ban. Until the Stormcloaks became active, the ban was just a decree that nobody paid real attention to. The raids, the inquisitions, the breaches of privacy by the Thalmor, that is entirely on the Stormcloaks for inciting, just as the Thalmor intended.

Again, this is invented. There's no timeline showing when the Thalmor started kidnapping and torturing Nords, and when Ulfric started his rebellion. And honestly, it doesn't matter who started first, the law of the land is that worshipping Talos is a crime. Saying that it's okay because we promise to look the other way is incredibly naive. First of all, there's no guarantee future policy changes won't result in the detention/persecution of worshippers. And second, Nords are proud. They despise criminals, and can't be expected to react to a decree outlawing their religion with 'That's okay, we'll just do it on the sly'.

Finally, siding with the Stormcloaks is literally the death of the Empire. The Empire has only five provinces left: Cyrodil, Skyrim, High Rock, Orsinium, and Morrowind (or at least what's left that the argonians haven't taken over). Of them, Skyrim is the only one with land routes to all four other provinces. Without Skyrim, anything left of Morrowind crumbles. Without Skyrim, there's nothing to hold the frankly insane Bretons in check, and nothing keeping Orsinium safe from everyone who wants them wiped out (which is to say, anyone other than the Empire). Remove Skyrim and all that's left of the Empire is Cyrodil.

I agree with you here, but when the Empire sided with its enemies over its subjects, then its legitimacy as a ruling body is null and void. The Empire isn't a democracy. You don't have consent of the governed. The Empire is legitimized only by its ability to protect its people from outside oppressors, a duty that it forsook in signing the White-Gold Concordat. So, to be honest, when you tell me that the Empire will die because Skyrim isn't propping it up anymore, my answer is, "Good."

The Thalmor may be worried about Ulfric, but the Empire was the only faction capable of ever actually fighting them to a standstill. Remove the Empire and the Thalmor win, no matter how much Skyrim might hinder them.

False. The Nords decimated the Elves in the time of Ysgramor, when the Elves were a lot stronger, and the Nords a lot weaker. Ysgramor was able to free Skyrim with a mere 500 warriors. Now the Aldmeri dominion might be in a better position with the Empire divided than united, but it's ridiculous to suppose that the fall of the Empire will result in Thalmor hegemony over the whole of Tamriel.

[Avilan the Grey]

Again, this is invented.

It is not invented. It is outright stated in the game.

[Calemyr]

Jackal, you raise some very good arguments. I cannot respond to some of them at the moment, but I will do what I can.

If that's true, then why is one of the hated Aldmer, Niranye, able to run a stall in the market right alongside those 'racist' Nords? The fact is, the Nords of Windhelm are, on the whole, no more or less intolerant of outsiders than the Nords of any other town. Even in Whiterun, the Al'akir are refused entry into the town for no better reason than they are outsiders, which, by the way, is exactly how the Dovahkiin is treated until he convinces the town guard to let him past. Pot, meet kettle.

What's more instructive is what Ulfric's responses when you talk to him about joining the Stormcloaks as a non-Nord. He'll take anyone who will fight for Skyrim as his/her home. He never personally utters an intolerant word, and speaks only of his duty to his homeland and its people.

Whiterun is clearly in panic mode when you get there, over the rumors of the dragon at Helgen. Balgruuf is angry over this strategy and frankly mocks his adviser over it upon hearing confirmation from you. That said, it's a question of all outsiders being hassled, especially those without legitimate business in town (like the Al'akir). There's no racism involved, just a walled city's knee-jerk tendency to turtle in times of uncertainty. They certainly do not display any disparity among Whiterun citizens, although violence against a certain Redguard is almost obligatory - why yes, I do get to the Cloud District often.

Niranye answers your question about her quite clearly: with a lot of effort, by proving herself more useful and more connected than anyone else. She earned that stall by hard (and not always legal) work. As I said about Ulfric's acceptance of the Dovahkiin, a particularly useful individual is given a pass regardless of race. Those willing to swear fealty to him are useful by definition.

He's in the midst of a war, and those bandits prey on his own as well. Do you really think that brigands in the hills discriminate between Nords and Khajiit? The fact is, the Stormcloak forces are disposed where they can best throw off the tyranny of the Empire.

What I was talking about was complaints by the "lesser races" that bandits have learned exactly that lesson - they can pillage khajiit caravans without consequence if they leave nord travelers alone.

You've got no proof of whether Ulfric would have bent the knee after being captured at Helgen, because Tullius' men just threw a gag on him, and Tullius ordered him beheaded without being able to utter a single word in his defense. Ulfric wasn't even offered the opportunity to surrender, so why should Tullius get the privilege of riding home after causing the deaths of so many valiant Nords, on both sides of the war?

Not my point, really. I said the war wouldn't end if Ulfric were in prison. They would just rally behind him to get him out. He's a cult of personality, as long as he's alive his cause will exist. Ulfric is and will always be a threat to the peace. If Tullius surrenders, Ulfric will have won and he will not be coming back.

You're reading an awful lot into the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric. More than is really there, in my opinion. They say he broke under interrogation, and that's certainly believable, though they also stipulate that he was 'generally uncooperative' once he was freed. But any conjecture that his rebellion was 'planted' by Thalmor conditioning is a complete fabrication. What's more likely? That he was somehow brainwashed under Thalmor interrogation, or that after having been captured and tortured by the Thalmor, that his suffering for the Empire was rewarded by the abject betrayal of the White-Gold Concordat?

It's not just the dossier. Alvor the blacksmith makes it absolutely clear that the sudden upswing in Thalmor enforcement is timed to match the Stormcloak insurrection, and that the ban was never actively enforced until that time. Either the Thalmor had that thing planned, or they are really lucky and really good at exploiting random circumstance.

Again, this is invented. There's no timeline showing when the Thalmor started kidnapping and torturing Nords, and when Ulfric started his rebellion. And honestly, it doesn't matter who started first, the law of the land is that worshipping Talos is a crime. Saying that it's okay because we promise to look the other way is incredibly naive. First of all, there's no guarantee future policy changes won't result in the detention/persecution of worshippers. And second, Nords are proud. They despise criminals, and can't be expected to react to a decree outlawing their religion with 'That's okay, we'll just do it on the sly'.

Ulfric is the focus here, and there is definitely a timeline.
* Ulfric fights in the war.
* Ulfric retires in disgust over the concordat
* Ulfric aids the Jarl of Morthal on the promise that they'll allow Talos worship
* Thalmor hear about this deal
* Thalmor lean on the Jarl, the Jarl sells out Ulfric
* Ulfric is imprisoned, and subjected to Thalmor hospitality
* Ulfric's father dies
* Ulfric is freed, a bitter and angry man

And why not worship Talos on the sly? Alvor said that's exactly what they did (without complaint) until the insurrection started. The Nords are proud, yes. They will do what they think is right no matter what anyone tells them.

I agree with you here, but when the Empire sided with its enemies over its subjects, then its legitimacy as a ruling body is null and void. The Empire isn't a democracy. You don't have consent of the governed. The Empire is legitimized only by its ability to protect its people from outside oppressors, a duty that it forsook in signing the White-Gold Concordat. So, to be honest, when you tell me that the Empire will die because Skyrim isn't propping it up anymore, my answer is, "Good."

Ah, so it isn't a democracy, but its legitimacy is derived entirely from the mass's view of a decision he was forced to make under duress. And a war turned from "blindsided and losing" to "stalemate" doesn't count as protecting the populace because the peace required to rebuild and rearm comes at the cost of an unenforced decree. I don't see a point in arguing this one, as it's purely a matter of perspective and you've every right to yours.

False. The Nords decimated the Elves in the time of Ysgramor, when the Elves were a lot stronger, and the Nords a lot weaker. Ysgramor was able to free Skyrim with a mere 500 warriors. Now the Aldmeri dominion might be in a better position with the Empire divided than united, but it's ridiculous to suppose that the fall of the Empire will result in Thalmor hegemony over the whole of Tamriel.

The Nedes, after getting absolutely gutted by their snow elf neighbors, hunt said snow-elves to rout and drive them into the tender arms of the the Dwemer. They never fought any other sub-species beyond the Falmer, and the Falmer are never portrayed as exceptional in terms of arcane, technological, or martial competence. Were we talking about the Bosmer or Dunmer here, I might be inclined to agree it's applicable, but we're talking about the most powerful magical race among the elves fashioned into a militarized force capable of rivaling the Empire (including Nord support). I don't think a single band of badasses led by a guy with an awesome beard will save the day.

[Beowulf DW]

Hearsay. Arrianus Arius wasn't present during the re-taking of Markarth, so he's only relaying tales told to him by forsworn, and those claims are totally at odds with facts learned by the Dovahkiin in the course of the game.

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For example, in 'The Bear of Markarth', Arius claims that all officials who worked for the forsworn were put to death. Yet we know that many forsworn were sent to Cidhna Mine, including their King! To say nothing of the numerous forsworn still living and working in Markarth at the time when you arrive.

Then there's the issue of Arius' sympathetic portrayal of a people who worship daedra and practice human sacrifice. To say the least, this strains his credibility as an objective chronicler.

The Silver-Bloods kept Madonach's existence hidden so that they could make use of him. In all likelihood, most people believed Madonach to be well and truly dead. Additionally, the conditions of the Reach natives living in Markarth and the stories we hear from the prisoners and older residents of Markarth confirm the brutality of the Nords toward the Forsworn.

[The_Jackal]

It is not invented. It is outright stated in the game.

Cite your source, please.

[Partof1]

Calemyr kinda cited it, I figure

[Misery Esquire]

and drive them into the tender arms of the the Dwemer.

I think that technically deserves some " " just to make it entirely clear on the... tenderness... of Dwemer.

[Avilan the Grey]

Cite your source, please.

Blacksmith in Riverwood.

[Seharvepernfan]

Ya know, I'm pretty sure the argument is moot. Bethesda made it as morally/ethically grey as possible, so that neither side is "right". This keeps it an "issue" that people will keep arguing about, all the better for the Thalmor's Bethesda's wallet.

[t209]

Blacksmith in Riverwood.

I remember that guy! His name is Alvor and he's Hadvar (the nord who was sad to see you get executed for being in their ambush). He also said that many people has Talos Shrine in their home when he was a boy (he look like 30 or 40s during Skyrim era) and Empire is doing a good job trying to preserve Talos Worship for 20 years after White Gold Concordat.
For the Forsworn

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Not all the Forsworn were killed, they escaped and probably launched a counterattack with infiltration operation.