Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

[Winthur]

Well, if you want a duelist, you can also make a sorcerer focusing on summons, make Deck of Many Things your core item, and at the end of every duel you could just banish the enemy into a realm of emptiness where they'd reside for eternity. Bonus points if with Vecna + Acceleration (or whatever the X-level spell that makes your spells cast superfast) + Amulet of Power you can summon a bunch of monsters in one turn.

[Kish]

I don't think anyone is stopping you from doing so. You can't stop people from disagreeing with you, though.

"Disagreeing with you"...what an odd phrase here. He hasn't said anything that is subject to agreement; you "disagree with him" that he wants what he thinks he wants?

It would be more accurate to say, "You can't stop people from giving you a hard time about it, though."

At least with the currently-out game, making kits is perhaps the easiest part of modding, so he shouldn't have any trouble making what he wants if WeiDU works with the new edition of the game. Which it very well may not, which would be...unfortunate, to say the least.

[Scarlet-Devil]

It's not just that, it's even worse

Spoiler

Show

Advantages:
-Immune to backstab, +1 to str/dex/con on character creation.
-Movement speed, armour class and saving throws improvements according to combat experience.*
-Gains Armor of Light ability according to his/her combat experience.**
-Gains Heaven's Touch by becoming the LightBringer ***
-Bonus +1 to hit/damage for every 3 levels.
-Bonus -1 to speed factor for every 4 levels.
-Physical, elemental and magic resistance improvements per level.****

-Apprentice: immune to all diseases,and cannot be slowed or hasted.*****
-Expert: Immune to charm and poison.
-Spartian: Immune to fear.
-Morituri: Permanent protection from evil, +1 str/dex/con bonus, regenerate 1hp/sec.
-LightBringer: Immune to stun & blindness, +1 bonus attack per round, +1 str/dex/con bonus,regenerate 2hp/sec.

Disadvantages:
-May not use missile weapons or bows.
-May not use any magic items except weapons and boots.
-May become proficient up to grand mastery only with weapons that comply with the Way of the Sword.
-Cannot stray away from the teachings of the Order.
-Must be of good alignment.
-Humans only.

*-2AC, -2 movement speed, -2 saving throws every 7 levels (saving throws max out at -8 in the Morituri level).
** A combination of Kai and Berserker enrage Armour of Light provides maximum damage for the first 6 seconds plus +2 to hit/damage, -2 to Armour Class, , immunity to death magic,charm,hold,fear,maze,imprisonment,stun,sleep ,level drain,+15 hit points, +4 movement modifier,-2 attack speed for 60 seconds. After that the Morituri becomes fatigued for 30 seconds: -4 to hit/damage, +4 penalty to AC, -15 hit points, -8 movement modifier,+4 attack speed.
*** Heaven's Touch: a combination of Mass Cure, Sunray, Nature's Beauty, Wing Buffet and Protection from Evil 10' radius spells inspired by Solafein's Moonrays and Moonfruit's Improved House Je'elat battle.
**** Resistance to missile,crushing,piercing,slashing,fire,cold,acid, electricity 1% per level + resistance to magic 2% per level up to level 39.
***** Apprentice: level 7, Expert: level 14, Spartian: level 21, Morituri: level 28, LightBringer: level 35.

That's pretty grody.

Well, if you want a duelist, you can also make a sorcerer focusing on summons, make Deck of Many Things your core item, and at the end of every duel you could just banish the enemy into a realm of emptiness where they'd reside for eternity. Bonus points if with Vecna + Acceleration (or whatever the X-level spell that makes your spells cast superfast) + Amulet of Power you can summon a bunch of monsters in one turn.

This.

[mangosta71]

Bonus points if with Vecna + Acceleration (or whatever the X-level spell that makes your spells cast superfast) + Amulet of Power you can summon a bunch of monsters in one turn.

The spell is Improved Alacrity. And it doesn't make your spells cast faster - it just allows you to start casting another spell immediately after the first finishes rather than having to wait until the next round. So what you do, is make you're set to auto-pause after every cast, cast Time Stop, then Improved Alacrity, then, with Robe of Vecna + Amulet of Power pretty much every spell you know below level 4 or 5 has a cast time of 0, so you blow through all of them. Your level 10 spells will also be reduced to 0, so cast them, too. When Time Stop wears off, avert your eyes because the whole screen is going to light up. When all the flashing stops, open your eyes and start looting.

This is one of the times when a mage/cleric is actually kind of cool, just so you can throw a Storm of Vengeance into the mix. Not that you need to, it just looks awesome with the comets falling everywhere, and the magic missiles and flame arrows blazing off in all directions, etc.

[Winthur]

The spell is Improved Alacrity. And it doesn't make your spells cast faster - it just allows you to start casting another spell immediately after the first finishes rather than having to wait until the next round. So what you do, is make you're set to auto-pause after every cast, cast Time Stop, then Improved Alacrity, then, with Robe of Vecna + Amulet of Power pretty much every spell you know below level 4 or 5 has a cast time of 0, so you blow through all of them. Your level 10 spells will also be reduced to 0, so cast them, too. When Time Stop wears off, avert your eyes because the whole screen is going to light up. When all the flashing stops, open your eyes and start looting.

Yeah, I was aware of all this except for the English name of Improved Alacrity. Dunno how Gorion dies in BG1 when he seems to have access to that spell as well.

[Cespenar]

As for my kit... I've been thinking about restricting its access to armor and possibly ranged weapons while giving it access to the Blade's stances. Not sure how balanced it would be - it would require playtesting and tweaking, obviously. I don't like Kensai because he's just too much of a glass cannon.

I would say go with this. It doesn't seem stronger than a Kensai/Mage or a Berserker/Cleric or heck, a pure Inquisitor.

[ThiagoMartell]

"Disagreeing with you"...what an odd phrase here. He hasn't said anything that is subject to agreement; you "disagree with him" that he wants what he thinks he wants?

I disagree that you need to create a kit to get something you can already do in the game.
He wants to create a kit because he wants to create a kit, not because you can't build a duelist in the standard game engine.

[Morty]

You can't get what I want with the current game engine. Kensai is too much of a glass cannon for my purposes - not to mention I want him to wear armour, which Kensai can't - and a Swashbuckler is a beefed-up Thief, but still a Thief. Whether or not you call the end result a duelist is just nitpicking.

[Kish]

I disagree that you need to create a kit to get something you can already do in the game.

Either you haven't taken in anything he's said but the word "duelist," or you're arguing that you can create a lightly-armored, but not-unarmored, nimble fighter who can use all fighter weapons, have fighter hit points, and have fighter THAC0 progression, well before having access to Throne of Bhaal's high level abilities, in the unmodded game. Or, of course, you're just not admitting that there's nothing to "disagree with" because "I disagree with you" sounds better than, "I reserve my right to go right on giving you a hard time about what you want to do."

[ThiagoMartell]

Either you haven't taken in anything he's said but the word "duelist," or you're arguing that you can create a lightly-armored, but not-unarmored, nimble fighter who can use all fighter weapons, have fighter hit points, and have fighter THAC0 progression, well before having access to Throne of Bhaal's high level abilities, in the unmodded game. Or, of course, you're just not admitting that there's nothing to "disagree with" because "I disagree with you" sounds better than, "I reserve my right to go right on giving you a hard time about what you want to do."

Ever heard of the Stalker Ranger kit?

[Kish]

Well done. You've found another thing that clearly isn't what Morty wants but technically fulfills his currently stated requirements (well, some of them; it's not particularly about being nimble). And so you get to chalk up another point, and he has to revise his description of what he wants to make yet again if he is optimistic enough to try to keep interacting with you. I really can't say I see the point of what you're doing, though.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well done. You've found another thing that clearly isn't what Morty wants but technically fulfills his currently stated requirements (well, some of them; it's not particularly about being nimble). And so you get to chalk up another point, and he has to revise his description of what he wants to make yet again if he is optimistic enough to try to keep interacting with you. I really can't say I see the point of what you're doing, though.

You are completely missing the point.
If what he wants is to play a duelist under the game's engine, I'm saving him the time he would take to design, implement and playtest a kit by telling him "it can be done this way, or that way".
If he said "I want to create a kit, because I feel like doing so" that's one thing... and that's not what he did. If what he wants is to create a kit, then I'd be helping him by giving him advice towards doing that. Which is basically what I told him beforehand - he wants people to agree with him that you can't create a duelist in the current engine, but the fact is you can and people have pointed out repeatedly (and politely, I might add). I wasn't even one of the people "giving him a hard time", so I really don't see the point of all your whiteknighting.

[Morty]

Kish explained my point quite well, but I'll reiterate anyway - no, you cannot make what I want with existing game engine. I've explained why. I don't want to make a kit for the sake of making a kit, so it would be nice if you'd stop repeating it. I want to make a kit because the concept behind it cannot be replicated with existing classes - you can come close, but something will always be missing.

[ThiagoMartell]

Kish explained my point quite well, but I'll reiterate anyway - no, you cannot make what I want with existing game engine. I've explained why. I don't want to make a kit for the sake of making a kit, so it would be nice if you'd stop repeating it. I want to make a kit because the concept behind it cannot be replicated with existing classes - you can come close, but something will always be missing.

Then use one of those options, then use ShadowKeeper and add what's missing. Done. I just saved you a few days worth of work.

[mangosta71]

For the record, I never found my kensai character to be a glass cannon, so I'm not sure what that's all about. His AC bonus from kensai may not have been equivalent to the best armor in the game, but I still easily got into negatives.

But anyway, if I understand correctly you want THAC0, hp, and weapon ability of a fighter. All you want from thief is "nimble" and light armor - I see no mention of any of the thief skills in your list. What's the problem with a straight fighter with high dex who chooses to wear leather instead of something heavier?

[Kish]

But anyway, if I understand correctly you want THAC0, hp, and weapon ability of a fighter. All you want from thief is "nimble" and light armor - I see no mention of any of the thief skills in your list. What's the problem with a straight fighter with high dex who chooses to wear leather instead of something heavier?

There's no benefit to not wearing the heaviest armor you can wear, unless they block class abilities, which they don't for a fighter. Is it really so unclear that "nimble and lightly-armored" here means "a character with dexterity-oriented abilities normal Strength-based melee fighters don't get who cannot wear heavy armor," not just, "a fighter with weird stat prioritization who chooses to use suboptimal armor"?

[Morty]

But anyway, if I understand correctly you want THAC0, hp, and weapon ability of a fighter. All you want from thief is "nimble" and light armor - I see no mention of any of the thief skills in your list. What's the problem with a straight fighter with high dex who chooses to wear leather instead of something heavier?

Because I don't want to play a suboptimal Fighter? I'm not so dedicated to this concept as to cripple my character.

[ThiagoMartell]

There's no benefit to not wearing the heaviest armor you can wear, unless they block class abilities, which they don't for a fighter. Is it really so unclear that "nimble and lightly-armored" here means "a character with dexterity-oriented abilities normal Strength-based melee fighters don't get who cannot wear heavy armor," not just, "a fighter with weird stat prioritization who chooses to use suboptimal armor"?

Actually, up to now, I've only seen you mention Strenght. If he wants a Fighter type with low Str, yes, he's going to need a new kit. He never said that, though.
Unless he adds a Str cap to such kit, though, it's going to end up seriously overpowered.

[mangosta71]

Because I don't want to play a suboptimal Fighter? I'm not so dedicated to this concept as to cripple my character.

So you're...creating a kit that makes no changes to a straight fighter other than removing the heavy armor proficiency? Simply so that you can play a character that's exactly like what I described, but isn't "suboptimal" because he can't wear anything heavier rather than simply choosing to wear light armor?

[Morty]

...

Yes, in the finale, with twinking, the Swashbuckler's AC can get sky-high. But on the lower levels, he's still got a Thief's hit points and doesn't get additional attacks. I would know, I played a Swashbuckler from BG2 to the end.
As for my kit... I've been thinking about restricting its access to armor and possibly ranged weapons while giving it access to the Blade's stances. Not sure how balanced it would be - it would require playtesting and tweaking, obviously. I don't like Kensai because he's just too much of a glass cannon.

I said what it does. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that I'm just going to cut its armour proficiency from.

[Kish]

So you're...creating a kit that makes no changes to a straight fighter other than removing the heavy armor proficiency?

Is that what he said?

As for my kit... I've been thinking about restricting its access to armor and possibly ranged weapons while giving it access to the Blade's stances.

...Doesn't look like it.

[Winthur]

Well Morty I honestly think the Beastmaster kit is exactly what you are looking for in a Duelist.

[Morty]

I dunno, it's kinda overpowered, isn't it?

[Kish]

Nah, your duelist should totally be a Priest of Talos.

[Winthur]

Nah, your duelist should totally be a Priest of Talos.

Not even close, baby. Beastmaster is the best right now.
(I'm sure Kinski invented a way to make him broken good, anyway)

[ThiagoMartell]

Not even close, baby. Beastmaster is the best right now.
(I'm sure Kinski invented a way to make him broken good, anyway)

Who the hell is Kinski anyway?

[Morty]

Not even close, baby. Beastmaster is the best right now.
(I'm sure Kinski invented a way to make him broken good, anyway)

Not sure how. Beastmaster trades proficiency in worthwhile weapons in exchange for summoning animals that can't threaten anyone past a certain level.
On the subject of kits, I'm reminded how, in my search for Fighter kits, I ran across another overpowered one. It's called Anti-Paladin and it has all the abilities of an Inquisitor, Fighter's XP progression and weapon proficiency and it casts Dispel Magic on hit.

[Kish]

Pretty sure Winthur is, as I am, making a joke about people's efforts to get you to do something that isn't what you want.

[Morty]

Oh, I know. I was making a comment on the possibility, or lack thereof, of making Beastmaster a good kit.

[Winthur]

Not sure how. Beastmaster trades proficiency in worthwhile weapons in exchange for summoning animals that can't threaten anyone past a certain level.

Nice try guy

Also, maybe Beastmaster is one of those classes that become really strong when mixed with TuTu and played in BG1? Like Totemic Druid?