V made the right mistake.

[King of Nowhere]

story wise is difficult to tell, but i'd go for a realistic point of view.
from a realistic point of view the order is against 2 teams far stronger than they are, with no advantage of any kind, and that is much worse than being unable to talk to the draketooths because you can't find them or they refuse to listen.
story wise, the order will manage to win somehow, so all will turn out well.
but, story wise, they would also have been able to talk to the draketooths somehow.
So it never was the right mistake if we keep a unified perspective on the story.

However, if we consider the current plotline storywise, and the alternative story where familicide never happened in a realistic pow, then it becomes a conveniente mistake.

[Forikroder]

story wise is difficult to tell, but i'd go for a realistic point of view.
from a realistic point of view the order is against 2 teams far stronger than they are, with no advantage of any kind, and that is much worse than being unable to talk to the draketooths because you can't find them or they refuse to listen.
story wise, the order will manage to win somehow, so all will turn out well.
but, story wise, they would also have been able to talk to the draketooths somehow.
So it never was the right mistake if we keep a unified perspective on the story.

However, if we consider the current plotline storywise, and the alternative story where familicide never happened in a realistic pow, then it becomes a conveniente mistake.

they are against one team of relatively equal strength and one team miles ahead of them

[ThePhantasm]

right roy wont but the order will

Roy might get the finishing blow on him

So in other words you admit that you were wrong in thinking that only epic magic can defeat epic magic?

[Forikroder]

So in other words you admit that you were wrong in thinking that only epic magic can defeat epic magic?

no the only reason i say roy might deliver the coup de grace is because it would be a cool scene thats all

and if Roy does get the final blow something aside from the order will have made it possible unless the order manages to gain another 5~ levels before the final confrontation with Xykon

[ThePhantasm]

no the only reason i say roy might deliver the coup de grace is because it would be a cool scene thats all

This is going in a circle. Here's the salient point: you are saying that only epic magic can defeat epic magic. Ergo, Roy's belief to the contrary is wrong in your framework, even if he is the one who effectively "kills" Xykon via a finishing blow. So the digression about the coup de grace is merely an irrelevant tangent. Kish's logic still holds: you are basically arguing that Roy is wrong and Eugene is right. Right?

[Psyren]

So I take it you think the climax of the comic is going to involve Roy acknowledging that he was wrong and his father was right.

Come now. When Roy beat Xykon using epic magic before, I doubt he was thinking "gee, Dad was right all along, I should have learned this stuff, it's awesome."

[Mike Havran]

when did he say that?

He did not said that in word, however notice strip 821. Tarquin wanted the Order to clear obstacles with their toil, and then ambush them and take over the Gate. The Guild saw them clear the traps (that means no warm welcome from the Draketooths), but saw no resistance or combat either. So Nale figured (correctly) that the pyramid lacks any defenders and Order is just doing their PC character developement stuff, and ordered Z to soak them in acid to get them moving.

If the Draketooths were alive and biting, the Guild would just observe and wait for the outcome

[Forikroder]

This is going in a circle. Here's the salient point: you are saying that only epic magic can defeat epic magic. Ergo, Roy's belief to the contrary is wrong in your framework, even if he is the one who effectively "kills" Xykon via a finishing blow. So the digression about the coup de grace is merely an irrelevant tangent. Kish's logic still holds: you are basically arguing that Roy is wrong and Eugene is right. Right?

well technically i suppose, but Eugene is wrong too the only reason Roy cant kill him is because of the insane level difference as Soon demonstrated very well Roy would put up as much of a fight as a wizard then as a fighter

(well that and Roys inability to fly and deal with magic)

He did not said that in word, however notice strip 821. Tarquin wanted the Order to clear obstacles with their toil, and then ambush them and take over the Gate. The Guild saw them clear the traps (that means no warm welcome from the Draketooths), but saw no resistance or combat either. So Nale figured (correctly) that the pyramid lacks any defenders and Order is just doing their PC character developement stuff, and ordered Z to soak them in acid to get them moving.

If the Draketooths were alive and biting, the Guild would just observe and wait for the outcome

thats not really waht he said he was just saying that as villains the LG is immune to traps and always find the shortcut to the end goal the heros always miss

[Jay R]

Roy getting to land the finishing blow on Xykon still proves that Eugene was right if it was Vaarsuvius who did most of the damage ....

Have you read On the Origin of the PCs?

Spoiler

Show

What Eugene said was that Roy should not bother to try to take on Xykon at all, but should only tell Julia about it so she can.

If Roy's party defeats Xykon, then Eugene was completely wrong.

And to everybody saying that only epic magic can beat epic magic: Frodo beat Sauron. Harry Potter beat Voldemort. Luke in a one-man X-wing beat a Death Star. It is not true, and has never been true, that the strongest side - even the overwhelmingly stronger side - always wins.

[Forikroder]

Have you read On the Origin of the PCs?

Spoiler

Show

What Eugene said was that Roy should not bother to try to take on Xykon at all, but should only tell Julia about it so she can.

If Roy's party defeats Xykon, then Eugene was completely wrong.

And to everybody saying that only epic magic can beat epic magic: Frodo beat Sauron. Harry Potter beat Voldemort. Luke in a one-man X-wing beat a Death Star. It is not true, and has never been true, that the strongest side - even the overwhelmingly stronger side - always wins.

none of those are a good comparison

Roy beating Xykon in a one on one fight would be like Hommunculus being beaten by edward in a one on one fight while Hommunculus had god and all the souls of amestris

[Chessgeek]

none of those are a good comparison

Roy beating Xykon in a one on one fight would be like Hommunculus being beaten by edward in a one on one fight while Hommunculus had god and all the souls of amestris

Funny, I once heard a story about this guy named David and someone called Goliath...

Not that it's likely, of course, but upsets do happen.

[Forikroder]

Funny, I once heard a story about this guy named David and someone called Goliath...

Not that it's likely, of course, but upsets do happen.

would be more like david VS death star

[Anarion]

Every actual goal of the Order has been made harder or impossible by V's action.

If the Order's goals are mistaken, it could still be possible that V's actions will end up helping out in one way or another. That doesn't make it the "right" mistake because you can't ever make genocide right, but it might end up being convenient.

We don't know enough about the gates, the snarl, and the world inside the rift to judge what is good or bad right now. Could be that weakening the gates will further the Order's ultimate goals.

It could be similar to Golden Sun, wherein you spent the first game trying to prevent anyone from lighting the lighthouses and then the second game you worked really hard to light every lighthouse.

Roy getting to land the finishing blow on Xykon still proves that Eugene was right if it was Vaarsuvius who did most of the damage (and I'm pretty sure it was stated during the Battle of Azure City that Roy and Vaarsuvius are the only members of the Order who can significantly injure Xykon). Thus, if the Order defeats Xykon for good, it basically boils down to either a Vaarsuvius-dominated victory (arcane) or a Roy-dominated victory (not arcane).

This might not be true anymore. Haley discussed during that battle that she couldn't hurt Xykon, but that she should have found a way to hurt him because as a rogue it's her job to figure stuff like that out. She's had time since then, and will have more time in the future before any climactic confrontation. Durkon's clerical powers have also increased, and it's possible that Elan or Belkar might get a power boost before all is said and done (depending how long everyone lives of course).


Also regarding the epic magic discussion, let's stop dancing around the conclusion and note that plenty of things other than epic magic can beat epic magic. For example, adequately large armies, non-magical protection abilities, grappling (possibly with dispel or an antimagic field), surprise tactics, deities (without using their own epic magic), optimized non-magic character builds etc.


Edit:

would be more like david VS death star

And since you threw a hanging slider, I can't resist. Three words. Thermal exhaust port.

[Forikroder]

Also regarding the epic magic discussion, let's stop dancing around the conclusion and note that plenty of things other than epic magic can beat epic magic. For example, adequately large armies, non-magical protection abilities, grappling (possibly with dispel or an antimagic field), surprise tactics, deities (without using their own epic magic), optimized non-magic character builds etc.

the diety thing? thats cheating cause gods are like 1 billion levels higher thena non god

and armies? familicide wiped out thousands of people in one spell

Three words. Thermal exhaust port.

ya not sure how many stones you have to sling into a thermal exhaust port before it blows, but imma guess alot

[Anarion]

the diety thing? thats cheating cause gods are like 1 billion levels higher thena non god

and armies? familicide wiped out thousands of people in one spell



ya not sure how many stones you have to sling into a thermal exhaust port before it blows, but imma guess alot

a) deity, not diety
b) you didn't specify and levels aren't epic magic
c) I said adequately large armies. If the spell wipes out thousands, send millions

[Mike Havran]

thats not really waht he said he was just saying that as villains the LG is immune to traps and always find the shortcut to the end goal the heros always miss

OK, that's your interpretation. Mine is different, the one I mentioned before. No problem with that.

[Forikroder]

a) deity, not diety
b) you didn't specify and levels aren't epic magic
c) I said adequately large armies. If the spell wipes out thousands, send millions

well technically any magic used by an epic level wizard/sorcerer could be considered epic magic so any spell a diety casts is epic magic

as for C, the only army large enough to take out an epic mage either consists of tons of high level adventurers

and even then the epic level mage can just whittle it down slowly and escape when things start looking dangerous

before this argument gets too crazy i will say while it is conceivable to beat epic level magic without epic level magic the cost to doing so is pretty inconcievable

[Emperordaniel]

Have you read On the Origin of the PCs?

Spoiler

Show

What Eugene said was that Roy should not bother to try to take on Xykon at all, but should only tell Julia about it so she can.

If Roy's party defeats Xykon, then Eugene was completely wrong.

Ah, thanks for telling me that - I haven't read On the Origin of PCs yet due to where I currently live (Southern Russia) and the fact that my parents don't like to buy things online, so I obviously missed that.

[ThePhantasm]

would be more like david VS death star

And since you threw a hanging slider, I can't resist. Three words. Thermal exhaust port.

That was just too easy.

Bad example, Forikroder.

[Forikroder]

That was just too easy.

Bad example, Forikroder.

last time i checked Davi doesnt own a Xwing fighter nor would he even be able to fly one if he did nor would he have the force powers to actually land the shot

so no the small joke is still accurate

[Jay R]

none of those are a good comparison

Roy beating Xykon in a one on one fight would be like Hommunculus being beaten by edward in a one on one fight while Hommunculus had god and all the souls of amestris

Exactly backwards. No discussion of a one-on-one fight is a valid comparison. Roy would not engage Xykon in a one-on-one fight. He has a party, remember?

Just as with Sauron, Voldemort, and the Death Star, the way to defeat a vastly more powerful entity is with something he doesn't know about - just as when Roy defeated Xykon the first time, with the power of the gate.

[Forikroder]

Exactly backwards. No discussion of a one-on-one fight is a valid comparison. Roy would not engage Xykon in a one-on-one fight. He has a party, remember?

Just as with Sauron, Voldemort, and the Death Star, the way to defeat a vastly more powerful entity is with something he doesn't know about - just as when Roy defeated Xykon the first time, with the power of the gate.

exactly, im sure with the Order theyll manage to be competant enough to find some sort of deus ex machina to bash Xykon over the head with

[Paseo H]

they are against one team of relatively equal strength and one team miles ahead of them

Exactly.

Someone earlier noted that because the Order is having a relatively easy time, that means its just as easy for the baddies.

However...both sets of baddies would be in a better position to fight their way through the defenses, especially Xykon, so this advantage is really in favor of the good guys, because they would otherwise be obligated to reason with Girard's unreasonable kin, thus putting them at a disadvantage.

[Mike Havran]

Exactly.

Someone earlier noted that because the Order is having a relatively easy time, that means its just as easy for the baddies.

However...both sets of baddies would be in a better position to fight their way through the defenses, especially Xykon, so this advantage is really in favor of the good guys, because they would otherwise be obligated to reason with Girard's unreasonable kin, thus putting them at a disadvantage.

I disagree. First of all, it is not at all certain the Draketooths would be unreasonable, or even hostile towards the Order. As Haley pointed out, they would be magically able to confirm that the Order is actually trying to protect the gate, not to conquer it. They probably won't outright trust them, but may very well offer them shelter and put them in the first line of defense. Then the Order would be backed up by some serious force, instead of trying to prepare an ambush in an unknown territory.

Even if the Draketooths told the Order to scram, they would be in a better position to ensure the Gate won't fall to TE or LG's hands. One of thirty or so defenders can easily destroy the gate if the battle is going wrong.

From "reader's" point of view, how do you expect that this arc is going to finish? If it is something like "the Girard's gate will be destroyed, none of TE dies, none of the Order dies, all move to Gate 5", than this could be achieved by Draketooths only. Familicide was useless at best, then, and only meant a lot of toil and risk at the Order's part.

[ThePhantasm]

last time i checked Davi doesnt own a Xwing fighter nor would he even be able to fly one if he did nor would he have the force powers to actually land the shot

so no the small joke is still accurate

Luke didn't require force training to make the shot. He and his friends used to bullseye womp rats back home. The Force only helped him focus. As for the X-Wing, that is simply a weapon, and a very very small one at that compared to the Death Star. Almost like how David's slingshot was a small weapon for use against a giant....

[2xMachina]

Illusion is one of the weakest school of magic.

Oops, did my True Sight just negated all your illusions?

Oops, did my permanent Arcane Sight just see all your illusions?

Oops, did my Detect Magic (a cantrip) just detected all your illusion auras?

[Icedaemon]

Roy getting to land the finishing blow on Xykon still proves that Eugene was right if it was Vaarsuvius who did most of the damage (and I'm pretty sure it was stated during the Battle of Azure City that Roy and Vaarsuvius are the only members of the Order who can significantly injure Xykon). Thus, if the Order defeats Xykon for good, it basically boils down to either a Vaarsuvius-dominated victory (arcane) or a Roy-dominated victory (not arcane).

If Durkon survives until the final battle and learns to take centre stage or dies soon enough for Malack to replace him, Divine magic might play an equal or larger part to Arcane.

[Lissibith]

Honestly, I don't think that Roy admitting that his father may have had a point is necessarily a bad thing or a 'loss' for Roy.

It's set up so that on the surface, their conflict is magic vs muscle. But really, when you look at their personalities, I think the biggest conflict is in a more fundamental outlook. Eugene is very self-absorbed. He believes in magic above all else because he pretty literally cannot think beyond himself. He can't work well with others. He can't admit when he was wrong. He never learned the lesson V got beaten into him.

So yeah, defeating Xykon with only his warrior skills would be a repudiation of Eugene for Roy. But I think an even bigger one would be for him to say, I'm not buying into your stupid, selfish false dichotomy anymore. I'm going to work together with these other people with their other important skills and together we'll be stronger than you ever were alone, with all your magic.

And if Roy in the end feels he HAS to defeat Xykon alone with his warrior skills, then even if he succeeds, he's also become as close-minded as his father, and I have a hard time seeing that as a good thing.

[Forikroder]

Luke didn't require force training to make the shot. He and his friends used to bullseye womp rats back home. The Force only helped him focus. As for the X-Wing, that is simply a weapon, and a very very small one at that compared to the Death Star. Almost like how David's slingshot was a small weapon for use against a giant....

but the point still remains, that DAvid lacks in any sort of Xwing fighter or any sort of practice with it so it would be impossible for David to take down the death star alone

just like its impossible for Roy to take down Xykon alone, hence the other 5 members helping him

[Anarion]

Luke didn't require force training to make the shot. He and his friends used to bullseye womp rats back home. The Force only helped him focus. As for the X-Wing, that is simply a weapon, and a very very small one at that compared to the Death Star. Almost like how David's slingshot was a small weapon for use against a giant....

You have a surprisingly high endurance for slamming your head into a brick wall. I am impressed.

Illusion is one of the weakest school of magic.

Oops, did my True Sight just negated all your illusions?

Oops, did my permanent Arcane Sight just see all your illusions?

Oops, did my Detect Magic (a cantrip) just detected all your illusion auras?

Although it's true that illusions can be negated by certain magical sight spells, that does not make illusion a weak school. Regular traps and the use of antimagic fields can be all that's needed to make the ilussions suddenly useful again. Also, not everyone has those spells available. Indeed, I don't know that anyone in OOTS world has a permanent arcane sight setup. And even with those spells, many illusions are quasi-real and can imitate the full effects of different spells even when they're revealed (e.g. shadow conjuration and shadow evocation).

Honestly, I don't think that Roy admitting that his father may have had a point is necessarily a bad thing or a 'loss' for Roy.

It's set up so that on the surface, their conflict is magic vs muscle. But really, when you look at their personalities, I think the biggest conflict is in a more fundamental outlook. Eugene is very self-absorbed. He believes in magic above all else because he pretty literally cannot think beyond himself. He can't work well with others. He can't admit when he was wrong. He never learned the lesson V got beaten into him.

So yeah, defeating Xykon with only his warrior skills would be a repudiation of Eugene for Roy. But I think an even bigger one would be for him to say, I'm not buying into your stupid, selfish false dichotomy anymore. I'm going to work together with these other people with their other important skills and together we'll be stronger than you ever were alone, with all your magic.

And if Roy in the end feels he HAS to defeat Xykon alone with his warrior skills, then even if he succeeds, he's also become as close-minded as his father, and I have a hard time seeing that as a good thing.

I agree with you. The conversation came up in the context of the quote "only epic magic can beat epic magic," however, and I think Roy would reject that premise. Lots of things can beat epic magic, possibly including the Order working as a team, and even a team that includes some magic as part of its overall whole.