V made the right mistake.

[JavaScribe]

So your argument is. They are looking for the trapmakers. They are all dead, but at least that means there aren't traps to prevent them from looking around to ascertain that they are dead, and thus killing them was a net-gain?

How in the world do you figure that?

The only definitive way to know what would have happened would be to recieve a "What If" from the Oracle. But the following doesn't seem unlikely.

With Penelope still alive, the Linear Guild would have exploited that loophole in Girard's epic magic to determine the exact location of the Zigguarat weeks ago. What they would have done with that knowledge remains unknown, but Elan mentioned the possibility of Nale telling them about the Order's involvement with the Sapphire Guard.

There definitely would have been a temporary teamup with Team Evil at some point. With all the bad guys knowing the Zigaraut's exact location, they would have bypassed all of the outer defenses via teleporation and gotten to the Draketooths. Some of the Draketooths were high level, but it doesn't look like any living ones were epic and they would have known nothing of Xykon and the Linear Guild. With a suprise attack and all their illusions bypassed, they would get slaughtered before they could retreat into the Ziggaraut's inner depths.

Eventually, the Order would have recieved Tarquin's tip that the Draketooths are in windy canyon, but would be unaware of the Zigguarat's exact location. They would get lost in the illusions, have to give up, and possibly even getting killed by said traps.

With the Draketooths around, the gate would have been completely screwed. With the Order around... it is still completely screwed. But at least there will be some high level heroes still alive to reach Kraagor's gate.

[Mike Havran]

The only definitive way to know what would have happened would be to recieve a "What If" from the Oracle. But the following doesn't seem unlikely.

With Penelope still alive, the Linear Guild would have exploited that loophole in Girard's epic magic to determine the exact location of the Zigguarat weeks ago. What they would have done with that knowledge remains unknown, but Elan mentioned the possibility of Nale telling them about the Order's involvement with the Sapphire Guard.

There definitely would have been a temporary teamup with Team Evil at some point. With all the bad guys knowing the Zigaraut's exact location, they would have bypassed all of the outer defenses via teleporation and gotten to the Draketooths. Some of the Draketooths were high level, but it doesn't look like any living ones were epic and they would have known nothing of Xykon and the Linear Guild. With a suprise attack and all their illusions bypassed, they would get slaughtered before they could retreat into the Ziggaraut's inner depths.

Eventually, the Order would have recieved Tarquin's tip that the Draketooths are in windy canyon, but would be unaware of the Zigguarat's exact location. They would get lost in the illusions, have to give up, and possibly even getting killed by said traps.

With the Draketooths around, the gate would have been completely screwed. With the Order around... it is still completely screwed. But at least there will be some high level heroes still alive to reach Kraagor's gate.

It does seem unlikely to me. If Penelope didn't die, Nale would have a week or two, tops, to narrow down the search (and that doesn't include the possibility that Tarquin starts to investigate those capable mysterious allies of his wife.)

Not to mention that the booby trap triggered by the Order would put the Draketooths on guard anyway, against epic lich and Order and Sapphire Guard (the last one is dubious, as the Draketooths were probably aware of Azure City fall). So TE would not have a big advantage of surprise.

But I think the weakest link is the team-up. Why would Xykon want to cooperate with Nale to help him on his ultimate quest? Nale is weak and Xykon already has the exact coordinates.

[JavaScribe]

It does seem unlikely to me. If Penelope didn't die, Nale would have a week or two, tops, to narrow down the search (and that doesn't include the possibility that Tarquin starts to investigate those capable mysterious allies of his wife.)

It took a few months to narrow down the location to Windy Canyon out of the entire desert. I doubt narrowing it further would have taken more than a week.

Tarquin himself said that Nale managed to hide under his nose for weeks and he hadn't made any effort to look into those mysterious allies of his wife before. It is doubtful he would have bothered checking before the Order came along. And besides, even if he did check, how does this make things any different than they are now?

Not to mention that the booby trap triggered by the Order would put the Draketooths on guard anyway, against epic lich and Order and Sapphire Guard (the last one is dubious, as the Draketooths were probably aware of Azure City fall). So TE would not have a big advantage of surprise.

The Draketooths have refused to let paladin huggers ressurect them from the dead. They are not going to be reasonable. The Draketooths have already done horrible things to maintain their secrecy, so I wouldn't put it past them to try eliminating the Order for knowing too much about them.

They were aware of gates being smashed, but they are too isolated to learn what's happening by rumour and Cloister would have prevented them from learning anything about Team Evil on their own. For all they knew, it could have been the Sapphire Guard gone bad(der) that's been smashing gates.

All the booby trap would have told them is that they are about to be dealing with fascist Lawful "Good" people and that there MIGHT be some sort of epic sorcerer lich on his way too. It wouldn't have told them anything about what that sorcerer lich can do or that he can bypass their outer defences and fight the clan directly because he knows where the ziggaurat is.

But I think the weakest link is the team-up. Why would Xykon want to cooperate with Nale to help him on his ultimate quest? Nale is weak and Xykon already has the exact coordinates.

Evil. A growth Industry.
"We're ALWAYS hiring!" - Xykon

As the above quote says, Xykon is ALWAYS interested in more minions. Nale seems to think he can get that ritual from Xykon because he's worked with him before, so he must have something along these lines in mind. Obviously there would be a betrayal at some point, but probably not until after all the defenders are dead.

[Mike Havran]

It took a few months to narrow down the location to Windy Canyon out of the entire desert. I doubt narrowing it further would have taken more than a week.

Well, they were narrowing it by eliminating non-important and non-warded parts of the desert. Once they would scry on the canyon, they would encounter magical decoys and other stuff. Not to mention that Orrin could be in a different part of canyon, or even elsewhere trying to make a new-generation defender.

Tarquin himself said that Nale managed to hide under his nose for weeks and he hadn't made any effort to look into those mysterious allies of his wife before. It is doubtful he would have bothered checking before the Order came along. And besides, even if he did check, how does this make things any different than they are now?

Because of Penelope. She had lived exactly one day between finding a good clue and dying and that one evening she was celebrating her success. If she was alive longer, she would start preparing the expedition and messing things up. LG would have to be very careful at this point, if they wanted to both keep searching and hide from savvy Tarquin. After Penelope's death, they just holed up in the palace and laid low.

The Draketooths have refused to let paladin huggers ressurect them from the dead. They are not going to be reasonable.

In OotS-verse, mortal life is not such a big deal compared to the afterlife, you need to have a good reason to return (Roy, Jirix), or little reason to stay (Eugene, that cameo LG chap). After two weeks or so, why would a single Draketooth leave his entire family and return to the dirty desert? Another reason - the epic Familicide may actually make resurrection impossible anyway.

The Draketooths have already done horrible things to maintain their secrecy, so I wouldn't put it past them to try eliminating the Order for knowing too much about them.

Lying and stealing is one thing, murder is another. Even if they didn't have moral restraints to kill the Order, they might have refrained from it because it could be a trap.

They were aware of gates being smashed, but they are too isolated to learn what's happening by rumour and Cloister would have prevented them from learning anything about Team Evil on their own. For all they knew, it could have been the Sapphire Guard gone bad(der) that's been smashing gates.

Since they were pretty paranoid, it makes sense that at least some of them were working outside, gathering intelligence about anything that could threaten them. And Gobbotopia was big news that spread wide - after all, 17 different countries recognized the country.

All the booby trap would have told them is that they are about to be dealing with fascist Lawful "Good" people and that there MIGHT be some sort of epic sorcerer lich on his way too. It wouldn't have told them anything about what that sorcerer lich can do or that he can bypass their outer defences and fight the clan directly because he knows where the ziggaurat is.

They seem the kind of organisation that has a plan for most scenarios, including epic arcane casters trying to get hold of the gate (after all, Girard was one and also knew Dorukan). I very much doubt the Ziggurat is not dimensionally locked, so Xykon would have to storm it from outside, and that would leave Draketooths enough time to destroy the gate if the battle goes ill.

Evil. A growth Industry.
"We're ALWAYS hiring!" - Xykon

As the above quote says, Xykon is ALWAYS interested in more minions. Nale seems to think he can get that ritual from Xykon because he's worked with him before, so he must have something along these lines in mind. Obviously there would be a betrayal at some point, but probably not until after all the defenders are dead.

Nale has no means to contact Xykon (Cloister) and Xykon has no particular need for the likes of Nale. Remember, Xykon was perfectly willing to travel with just Redcloak, Tsukiko and the MitD even when he had city of minions at his disposal. He is not in need of a hireling, especially not a party who can easily betray him and complicate things a little bit.

[Chessgeek]

I'm not entirely sure what the relationship between Xykon and Nale is at this point. Initially, Xykon hired The Linear Guild to take out The OOTS, which they failed to do. But, by the end of the Dungeon of Dorukan, Xykon ends up wanting to get The OOTS in his chamber anyway. Obviously that's just because The Giant didn't have the plot figured out yet, but then where does that leave the two of them? At the least, Xykon can't think of the LG as particularly competent.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm not entirely sure what the relationship between Xykon and Nale is at this point. Initially, Xykon hired The Linear Guild to take out The OOTS, which they failed to do. But, by the end of the Dungeon of Dorukan, Xykon ends up wanting to get The OOTS in his chamber anyway. Obviously that's just because The Giant didn't have the plot figured out yet, but then where does that leave the two of them? At the least, Xykon can't think of the LG as particularly competent.

Xykon got the idea that a Good Guy has to touch the Gate from Nale's plan for the Talisman. Prior to that, he did want them dead.

[Chessgeek]

Xykon got the idea that a Good Guy has to touch the Gate from Nale's plan for the Talisman. Prior to that, he did want them dead.

Yeah, I know, but where does that put Xykon and Nale? The LG failed to do the job he hired them for.

[Math_Mage]

There definitely would have been a temporary teamup with Team Evil at some point. With all the bad guys knowing the Zigaraut's exact location, they would have bypassed all of the outer defenses via teleporation and gotten to the Draketooths. Some of the Draketooths were high level, but it doesn't look like any living ones were epic and they would have known nothing of Xykon and the Linear Guild. With a suprise attack and all their illusions bypassed, they would get slaughtered before they could retreat into the Ziggaraut's inner depths.

The part that confuses me is how Sabine was supposed to narrow down a location exact enough to bypass all the defenses from Penelope's account.

Well, that and Nale HAS to know he can't handle Xykon, or he's even dumber than I thought. Meanwhile, Xykon has demonstrated his lack of interest in bringing extra minions along. Neither side wants to ally with the other.

[JavaScribe]

The part that confuses me is how Sabine was supposed to narrow down a location exact enough to bypass all the defenses from Penelope's account.

Zzd'tri's divinations wouldn't have allowed them to bypass ALL of the defenses, but it would have been enough to get them to the ziggaraut, and therefore the Draketooths. All they have to do is suprise attack the Draketooths before they can hide in the ziggaraut's inner depths. After that, they can deal with the inner defenses at their leisure.

Well, that and Nale HAS to know he can't handle Xykon, or he's even dumber than I thought.

Maybe he really is that stupid. Just by going to that gate he's going to have to handle Xykon one way or another, whether it be by bargaining or combat. Especially since he somehow plans to get his hands on Xykon's ritual.

Meanwhile, Xykon has demonstrated his lack of interest in bringing extra minions along. Neither side wants to ally with the other.

They left behind the horde because it is too slow and individually weak to be of any use where they are going. The logistics of transporting that many minions was the main factor in making Azure City their target in the first place

The Linear Guild is high level and more importantly, already there.

[Kish]

The Linear Guild is high level and more importantly, already there.

More importantly still, Xykon already hired them for a job, and they decided to pursue their own goals on Xykon's time instead. He's not the forgiving sort.

[JavaScribe]

Well, they were narrowing it by eliminating non-important and non-warded parts of the desert. Once they would scry on the canyon, they would encounter magical decoys and other stuff.

Zzd'tri is high level. Only the epic stuff would have been guaranteed to block Zzd'tri's diviniations and it doesn't look like that was applied to the canyon itself. At the very least, Nale seemed to feel that they could narrow down the location further.

Not to mention that Orrin could be in a different part of canyon, or even elsewhere trying to make a new-generation defender.

I doubt Orrin would leave to another part of the canyon for the long term. And if leaving the canyon entirely would have defeated the Linear Guild's efforts, they never would have narrowed it down to the Windy Canyon in the first place.

Because of Penelope. She had lived exactly one day between finding a good clue and dying and that one evening she was celebrating her success. If she was alive longer, she would start preparing the expedition and messing things up. LG would have to be very careful at this point, if they wanted to both keep searching and hide from savvy Tarquin. After Penelope's death, they just holed up in the palace and laid low.

Even if it happened, that still doesn't address how that would have made things any different from the way they are now. Whether to control a superweapon, ensure no one else does, or just to take the measure of his other son, Tarquin may well have just decided to make a temporary alliance with Nale as he is now.

In OotS-verse, mortal life is not such a big deal compared to the afterlife, you need to have a good reason to return (Roy, Jirix), or little reason to stay (Eugene, that cameo LG chap). After two weeks or so, why would a single Draketooth leave his entire family and return to the dirty desert? Another reason - the epic Familicide may actually make resurrection impossible anyway.

Sure, this is possible, but it's every bit as theoretical as my own speculation.

Lying and stealing is one thing, murder is another. Even if they didn't have moral restraints to kill the Order, they might have refrained from it because it could be a trap.

Maybe, but its still a possibility. Girard certainly wasn't above risking the deaths of a few low level paladins. And even if they suspected a trap or had moral concerns, once the Order starts poking around the outskirts of Windy Canyon, alarm bells are going to be ringing.

Since they were pretty paranoid, it makes sense that at least some of them were working outside, gathering intelligence about anything that could threaten them. And Gobbotopia was big news that spread wide - after all, 17 different countries recognized the country.

That doesn't tell them who Team Evil is, just that a bunch of hobgoblins took over Azure City. All the gate business is hush hush, Cloister blocks scrying, and most of the gate defenders are on far too bad terms to speak with one another, especially the Draketooths and the Sapphire Guard.

They seem the kind of organisation that has a plan for most scenarios, including epic arcane casters trying to get hold of the gate (after all, Girard was one and also knew Dorukan).

Sure, and the biggest part of that plan was to trust no one, keep everything completely secret, and rely on Girard's lingering epic magic to prevent divinations from unearthing anything. Unfortunetely, Xykon somehow got his hands on Sereni's Diary. That's something they wouldn't have known to plan for.

The Draketooths didn't seem to have any living epic casters, so they would have required some special preparation to deal with Xykon. If Xykon launched a suprise attack, they wouldn't have time to prepare.

I very much doubt the Ziggurat is not dimensionally locked, so Xykon would have to storm it from outside, and that would leave Draketooths enough time to destroy the gate if the battle goes ill.

It doesn't look like Dimensional Lock can be made permanant and they only have so many casters, so any shielded areas would be relatively small. Maybe even only around the gate itself.

More importantly still, Xykon already hired them for a job, and they decided to pursue their own goals on Xykon's time instead. He's not the forgiving sort.

No, but he isn't completely unreasonable. Nale did TRY fulfill their bargain wielding the power of said goals. He just failed. While Xykon probably would try to eliminate Nale at some point, that doesn't mean he wouldn't see the value in working with a few extra sacrificial pawns for the short term.

Xykon figures in Nale's plans somehow and I doubt Nale is planning on a direct fight.

[B. Dandelion]

More importantly still, Xykon already hired them for a job, and they decided to pursue their own goals on Xykon's time instead. He's not the forgiving sort.

I agree with your overall point, but as to that -- I think the Linear Guild's earlier escapade hurt their credibility more for their lack of results than their ulterior agenda. Nale actually was planning to uphold the deal with Xykon, and since he said it out loud Xykon probably knows about it. He later called Nale worthless, not treacherous.

[Winter]

More importantly still, Xykon already hired them for a job, and they decided to pursue their own goals on Xykon's time instead. He's not the forgiving sort.

True. But sometimes he is of the forgetting sort. It might very well be he does not remember them (a large part of his memory-thing is pure show, but a part of it still seems real enough).

[Chessgeek]

But sometimes he is of the forgetting sort.

Uhhh, he is? Redcloak, his closest (only) friend still has one eye because Xykon was pissed off at him. If he can't forgive RC, who can he forgive?

[Forikroder]

Uhhh, he is? Redcloak, his closest (only) friend still has one eye because Xykon was pissed off at him. If he can't forgive RC, who can he forgive?

someone who didnt lose his soul?

RC isnt Xykons friend, there partners that are both using each other and hating every second of it

[lio45]

Uhhh, he is? Redcloak, his closest (only) friend still has one eye because Xykon was pissed off at him. If he can't forgive RC, who can he forgive?

"Forgetting", not "forgiving". As in, "I'll have revenge over this Bluepommel dude, whoever he is".

He could very well just not remember he's ever seen Nale before. (Not saying it's that likely, but it would be possible.)

[Chessgeek]

Sorry Winter, I misread that one. Yes, that Is certainly possible.

someone who didnt lose his soul?

RC isnt Xykons friend, there partners that are both using each other and hating every second of it

They do? I mean, yeah, they're using each other, but they hate each other too? I didn't get that impression.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Each gate so far has had some sort of amazing defense that slowed or stopped the bad guys. Dorukan's Gate had the rune that kept Team Evil from using it, Soon's had the ghost-paladins, and

Spoiler

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Lirian's had the Guardian Virus.

I'd bet that Girard did, in fact, put something in place that would compare to that.

Very true. I'm guessing...

Spoiler

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...dracolich, which is extremely likely considering the Draketooth's background. Remember how the Order was scryed on when they triggered the programmed message in the middle of the desert? A dracolich related to the Draketooths could know about the message in the desert, be able to scry the Order, be patient enough not to lash out and kill them immediately after the Draketooths had died (actually a non-issue, it wouldn't immediately know that V was responsible but it will quickly find out), and be immune to necromancy (even an epic-level spell). If a dracolich is guarding the Gate, or just investigating the murder of the Draketooth clan, Xykon and Redcloak are in for a world of hurt because they mainly use magic and energy drain effects.

[JavaScribe]

Very true. I'm guessing...

Spoiler

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Remember how the Order was scryed on when they triggered the programmed message in the middle of the desert? A dracolich related to the Draketooths could know about the message in the desert, be able to scry the Order...

It has been all but confirmed that the scrying orb was Zzd'tri's. Nale said he knew the Order was in the desert and the aura matched Zzd'tri's two layered green aura.

[Snippy]

RC isnt Xykons friend, there partners that are both using each other and hating every second of it

They do? I mean, yeah, they're using each other, but they hate each other too? I didn't get that impression.

I don't think Xykon hates RC. I think it's only in a few cases that Xykon drifts to extremes such as 'hate' or 'like', he's mostly indifferent. He doesn't feel anything for anyone, and nor does he care about them. RC hasn't done anything to make Xykon truly hate him.
Redcloak may hate Xykon. He dislikes him, that's for sure, but he has never shown intense hate. He thinks of Xykon as a weapon, not a person.

[Hopeless]

Kish's point seems logical to me. You are saying only epic magic can defeat epic magic. Roy doesn't believe that, but Eugene does seem to. Ergo, if you are right, then Roy will be proven wrong.

I'm not sure what point you are making about Roy's sword. A bit hard to parse out your sentences at times since you use no punctuation. But you've already argued that Roy won't defeat Xykon, so whatever point you are making about his sword seems moot.

Roy's dad believes the answer to everything is magic, fact remains that whilst he lived Roy's dad never succeeded in his sworn oath to stop or destroy Xykon.

Roy on the other hand has actually destroyed Xykon's body with nothing more than his bare hands and a handy Gate, the sword certainly has enough potential to defeat Xykon but only once his phylactery is destroyed will Xykon meet his end.

Ironically everything points to Redcloak being killed by Xykon whilst carrying the phylactery and in so doing kills itself.

I'm more wondering if Roy sacrifices himself to seal the rift and basically becoming the Kraagor of his team and we'll have him meet Kraagor and finally, finally we find out what was going on with the Order of the Scribble because they're certainly screwed up in more ways than one!

So its isn't epic magic that will defeat Xykon, irony however plays a part and it will quite possibly be very funny when Xykon figures out how he's been played!

[Hopeless]

To be fair, "Talk to Girard" seems to have become impossible* years ago, when Girard died of old age.

*Or at least requiring of Speak with Dead.

By someone who isn't Lawful Good or reminds Girard in any way of Soon, his order of paladins, etc... come to think about it unless they remind him of Serini or are a member of his extended (and newly undead) family thats pretty much everyone!

So did they ever think of adopting kids as members of their family?

[Hopeless]

last time i checked Davi doesnt own a Xwing fighter nor would he even be able to fly one if he did nor would he have the force powers to actually land the shot

so no the small joke is still accurate

He does have a sling and since you threw in Star Wars he also has a souped up garage door opener that just happens to cause the Death Star's main weapon to backfire blowing up said artificial moon since they certainly didn't see that one coming!

Thermal exhaust port? I see no thermal exhaust port, I see an undersized accident waiting to happen!

[lio45]

Roy's dad believes the answer to everything is magic, fact remains that whilst he lived Roy's dad never succeeded in his sworn oath to stop or destroy Xykon.

Roy on the other hand has actually destroyed Xykon's body with nothing more than his bare hands and a handy Gate...

"on the other hand"?

handy Gate == Epic magic.

All Roy's bare hands did was move Xykon to where the Epic magic could zap him...

[Peelee]

By someone who isn't Lawful Good or reminds Girard in any way of Soon, his order of paladins, etc... come to think about it unless they remind him of Serini or are a member of his extended (and newly undead) family thats pretty much everyone!

So did they ever think of adopting kids as members of their family?

No form of Resurrection works if the subject died of old age, which certainly seems to be the case for Girard.

[Mike Havran]

Zzd'tri is high level. Only the epic stuff would have been guaranteed to block Zzd'tri's diviniations and it doesn't look like that was applied to the canyon itself. At the very least, Nale seemed to feel that they could narrow down the location further.

We know little of what kind of spells were used to guard the canyon when the Draketooths were alive, only that Roy considers them "high-end stuff". That implies 7th-9th level spells. We know they were regularly casting Screen, which is 8th (7th if they were casting it from Trickery domain, but that seems less likely) level and could be more than a match for Z. Also, Z would risk that Detect Scrying casters patrol the area. Nale's self-confidence can't be trusted.

That doesn't tell them who Team Evil is, just that a bunch of hobgoblins took over Azure City. All the gate business is hush hush, Cloister blocks scrying, and most of the gate defenders are on far too bad terms to speak with one another, especially the Draketooths and the Sapphire Guard.

Sure, and the biggest part of that plan was to trust no one, keep everything completely secret, and rely on Girard's lingering epic magic to prevent divinations from unearthing anything. Unfortunetely, Xykon somehow got his hands on Sereni's Diary. That's something they wouldn't have known to plan for.

Well, they (probably) knew the Azure City was conquered, and certainly knew that the Gate was destroyed and something powerful blocks all their attempt to scry. They must have been aware that some serious arcane power is against the Gates. It would be prudent of them to prepare for it. We can only guess what kind of preparations they took, but it's a stretch to assume that the attackers would find them flat-footed.

[Math_Mage]

What the Draketooths should be able to deduce is that the same force that took out Dorukan's gate also took out Soon's, because the Cloister on Dorukan's Gate faded after Dorukan's death, and then was restored; faded again after Dorukan's Gate was destroyed, and then was reestablished over Azure City after Soon's Gate was destroyed. They may not know it's Xykon, but they know it's bloody strong.

Zzd'tri's divinations wouldn't have allowed them to bypass ALL of the defenses, but it would have been enough to get them to the ziggaraut, and therefore the Draketooths. All they have to do is suprise attack the Draketooths before they can hide in the ziggaraut's inner depths. After that, they can deal with the inner defenses at their leisure.

We don't know that Zz'dtri would be able to pinpoint things that closely. We don't know that the ziggurat would be scryable. And we don't know that the Draketooths would be caught with their pants down if the Linear Guild teleported in, even if LG didn't get immediately caught up in the surrounding illusions.

Maybe he really is that stupid. Just by going to that gate he's going to have to handle Xykon one way or another, whether it be by bargaining or combat. Especially since he somehow plans to get his hands on Xykon's ritual.

He knows there is a ritual. He knows he doesn't want to die at Malack's hands. That he actually wants to secure Xykon's ritual is far from certain.

They left behind the horde because it is too slow and individually weak to be of any use where they are going. The logistics of transporting that many minions was the main factor in making Azure City their target in the first place

The Linear Guild is high level and more importantly, already there.

And has a poor track record as far as Team Evil is concerned.

They do? I mean, yeah, they're using each other, but they hate each other too? I didn't get that impression.

Redcloak probably hates both Xykon and himself. Xykon sees Redcloak as fun to toy with. It's not a happy family down there.

[Chessgeek]

Redcloak probably hates both Xykon and himself. Xykon sees Redcloak as fun to toy with. It's not a happy family down there.

But that's how Xykon shows his wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuv.
I don't really think Xykon "hates" many people, and by that reasoning I doubt he hates Redcloak. Redcloak, yes, I concede that it is very likely that he hates Xykon. So as a whole, I concede, it isn't "a happy family" over at TE.

[Gift Jeraff]

Indeed, Rich has even said that Xykon doesn't really hate anyone because he sees himself as so far beyond them. I forgot the exact wording, but it's something to that effect.

[JavaScribe]

What the Draketooths should be able to deduce is that the same force that took out Dorukan's gate also took out Soon's, because the Cloister on Dorukan's Gate faded after Dorukan's death, and then was restored; faded again after Dorukan's Gate was destroyed, and then was reestablished over Azure City after Soon's Gate was destroyed. They may not know it's Xykon, but they know it's bloody strong.

Due to the non interference clause and their own solitude, the Draketooths would be unlikely to scry on Dorukan's gate until the gate's destruction. And as you just said, Cloister was effectively dispelled by said event. Thus, they would never notice it in the first place.

Heck, I'm not even sure they bothered to scry it after the gate's destruction. They certainly didn't do it right away, or Eugene would have noticed.

We don't know that Zz'dtri would be able to pinpoint things that closely. We don't know that the ziggurat would be scryable. And we don't know that the Draketooths would be caught with their pants down if the Linear Guild teleported in, even if LG didn't get immediately caught up in the surrounding illusions.

Well sure, but we don't really know that they wouldn't. As I said before, the only way to know what would have happened would be to recieve a "what if" from the oracle. Without that, arguments for either way are purely speculation.

He knows there is a ritual. He knows he doesn't want to die at Malack's hands. That he actually wants to secure Xykon's ritual is far from certain.

Alright, then let's consider the alternative. The alternative to teaming up with Team Evil is to fight a minimum 3 way battle. Even if the Linear Guild manages to be the sole victor, they still need something to take control of the gate or the Snarl else the whole thing has been a waste of time.

Acquiring a high level divine cleric is easy enough. Acquiring an epic arcane caster is easy enough too, since the archfiends would be willing to lend theirs in a soul splice. But they still don't have an epic arcane/divine ritual for controlling the snarl or the gate. And I doubt the soul splice would be an effective means for researching such a spell. So what are they going to do with the gate without Xykon's ritual? Sit on it until they reach epic level?

And has a poor track record as far as Team Evil is concerned.

Xykon has let minions survive after making mistakes. He has forgotten stuff in the past. Incompetence doesn't equal death, it just means they are disposable, and Xykon likes having disposable minions around. And if all else fails, Nale could try using that charisma score of his to make a diplomacy roll.