Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[tgva8889]

Not really. Isochron Scepter+Silence is overrated even if you're playing a 4-of for each in a 60 card deck (which gives you a reasonable chance of drawing both), but if you're playing only 1 of each in a 100-card deck even that chance goes way down.

It helps, and is really one of the few ways to do so in Commander. It's not perfect and it's worse than Orim's Chant for this, but it's an option. I mean, I assume your deck also does other things to kill them in Commander, since you have at least 40 other cards and a Commander with which to kill them in your deck.

[Lhurgyof]

Silence certainly helps to buy me time while I'm getting my planeswalkers up there.

I like Mana Drain on a stick more, personally. But that's because I always seem to get my seedborn muse.

[Stille_Nacht]

I play UB zombies and i don't play any fume spitters, not because they aren't good, but because i have other stuff i want to use.
But i think the problem with fume spitters is that it is an utillity, while diregraf ghoul is a win con. And while utillity is nice, you don't want to much of it, especially in an aggro deck. But like Dm of Darkness said, post your list, then we can tell better, you might have enough win cons for it to work.

yeah but zombie pod (BRG in this case) doesnt really need the ghouls for the "fast kill" and in the meta nowadays, they rarely swing in more than once anyway.

(honestly i stopped playing ub zombie aggro because it seems to just lie down and die to bonfire ><)

[Elagune]

Sooo... What's everybody's thoughts on the spoiled Jarad?

I don't know much about Ravnica, but it seems there's a lot of hype for it. To be honest, I'm a little bit apprenhensive. Lord knows I have enough trouble wrapping my head around mono-coloured decks. I have no idea how I'll be drafting this format.

Also, did a booster draft tonight. I actually ended up in mono-blue! Shut down my opponent first game with four Kraken Hatchlings and then Sphinxed and Invocation'ed for the win. Turns out my next opponent had fliers, which destroyed me. My third opponent trampled all over me with his rings and Rancors. I learned a lot about playing blue after this, though! Counterspells are fun.

[Mr._Blinky]

Sooo... What's everybody's thoughts on the spoiled Jarad?

Don't know how good he is but he looks really cool. Plus I was already running Splinterfright.dec before it became cool (like the MTG-hipster I am) and this gives it an awesome new tool.

[IthilanorStPete]

Jarad seems slow and grindy, but potentially interesting. I'm not quite sure how to parse the "Sacrifice a Swamp and a Forest" rules-wise; will sac-ing an Overgrown Tomb be enough? Or is it like the Heralds from Shards?

[Fable Wright]

Jarad seems slow and grindy, but potentially interesting. I'm not quite sure how to parse the "Sacrifice a Swamp and a Forest" rules-wise; will sac-ing an Overgrown Tomb be enough? Or is it like the Heralds from Shards?

It's like the Heralds. Still, it is a good card. Early on, he can give a beating in the right deck; a couple of creatures die, and you have a 4/4 for 4 that grows and has a burn option (Gravecrawler/Messenger, anyone?), and a recursion option for the lategame when you weren't using those lands. It's an advantage engine, but not necessarily slow and grindy.

[Lord Seth]

It helps, and is really one of the few ways to do so in Commander. It's not perfect and it's worse than Orim's Chant for this, but it's an option. I mean, I assume your deck also does other things to kill them in Commander, since you have at least 40 other cards and a Commander with which to kill them in your deck.

Well, yeah, of course Orim's Chant is better. Now to be fair, I'll admit I don't really play Commander, but as the Scepter+Chant combo is vastly overrated outside of it, it'd seem to me that it'd be even worse in Commander. But maybe the format is slow enough that it can work anyway...

Sorry, just overall really annoyed at how overrated Isochron Scepter is. To be fair years and years ago I overrated it also, but I still didn't overrate it as badly as some people I've seen recently (not here).

[Lhurgyof]

Well, yeah, of course Orim's Chant is better. Now to be fair, I'll admit I don't really play Commander, but as the Scepter+Chant combo is vastly overrated outside of it, it'd seem to me that it'd be even worse in Commander. But maybe the format is slow enough that it can work anyway...
Sorry, just overall really annoyed at how overrated Isochron Scepter is. To be fair years and years ago I overrated it also, but I still didn't overrate it as badly as some people I've seen recently (not here).

You know what's REALLY good on a stick? Word of Command .

[tgva8889]

Well, yeah, of course Orim's Chant is better. Now to be fair, I'll admit I don't really play Commander, but as the Scepter+Chant combo is vastly overrated outside of it, it'd seem to me that it'd be even worse in Commander. But maybe the format is slow enough that it can work anyway...

Sorry, just overall really annoyed at how overrated Isochron Scepter is. To be fair years and years ago I overrated it also, but I still didn't overrate it as badly as some people I've seen recently (not here).

It's not a bad card. You aren't going to win games with it, but you only ever need to use it twice for it to be not a bad deal.

There are a lot of good cards that you want to play anyways that are perfectly good on an Isochron Scepter, and in Commander it's fine to "do nothing" for a turn to set up some advantage. Unlike 20 life formats, people aren't going to be attacking you for 10 on turn 4 or anything. ScepterChant isn't absolutely amazing, but in a format like Commander where people play lots of very large and powerful Sorceries and Creatures, preventing a player from doing that at all is a powerful thing to be able to do every turn.

It's not amazing, but if you have enough instants to make it work it can be pretty useful. It's not going to make you win, but there really aren't any instants that you can put on Scepter that will make you win a game of EDH.

[Penguinizer]

The problem with that is you're only locking down one player and more than likely getting plenty of hate in the process. Even then it doesn't stop any sort of instant based plays or plays with stuff on the field.

[tgva8889]

There are other things happening. I imagine that if you play smart with it it will be effective. Like, if you have it when it's 1 on 1, you'll probably pull ahead if you combine it with, like, you casting other cards. Sure, it doesn't stop instants or cards on the table, but you still get to play more things unless your opponent has Teferi or something.

You aren't going to play Scepter + Silence before it's 1 on 1 because yes, you are likely to get hated out of the game. It's not like you have to play it as soon as you draw it or something.

[Lord Seth]

It's not a bad card. You aren't going to win games with it, but you only ever need to use it twice for it to be not a bad deal.

It's not bad certainly, but it bugs me to see people call it terms like "broken" (or in at least one case, "most broken card ever") or for it to somehow have a higher rating on Gatherer than cards like the Moxen.

On a more positive note, going 4-0 in a tournament and opening a foil Tamiyo in the prize packs is fun.

[tgva8889]

It's not bad certainly, but it bugs me to see people call it terms like "broken" (or in at least one case, "most broken card ever") or for it to somehow have a higher rating on Gatherer than cards like the Moxen.

Oh yes, certainly. But Gatherer ratings are...wrong isn't the right word. But something similar to that is what I want.

Also congratulations!

[Elagune]

Guys. I've got a Mono-W humans deck and I'm contemplating Butcher's Cleaver and Angels of Jubilation.

My thought process is this. For Angel of Jubilation I'm thinking about two for my top-end. Every game I've gotten two Honors of the Pure out on the field I've pretty much destroyed, and Angel of Jubilation is pretty much Honor on a Flying body, which seems pretty good. Butcher's Cleaver would help my double and first-strikers survive fights, and would be especially good on my Elite Inquisitors since vigilance, first-strike, and lifelink would be ridiculous on a creature with 5 power. Also, Mirran Crusader and Silverblade Paladin would both benefit a lot from it.

Talk me out of it?

[Penguinizer]

I was curious how many people here have seen this: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ly/arcana/1035

It looks to be another thing similar to the From the Vault series in that they're doing a limited print-run of older cards to get them out there. Once again it's Commander based. They've spoiled Sylvan Library and oversized Azusa, I think it'll have Command Tower but beyond that no idea. I might consider getting one if it has some really good reprints but at that price I don't think I'll really bother.

The problem I see with it is that if it A: doesn't have normal sized versions of the commanders and B: uses the FtV foiling process it might not really be that useful.

[tgva8889]

The Mimeoplasm has also been spoiled to be in it. I would guess that they do have normal-sized Commanders in there, and that 10 of the 18 cards that will be in it are going to be the same as the 10 oversized cards.

The biggest problem with this is that it doesn't do anything to affect the market value of those cards. It's not useful to print special promo versions of cards that people want to increase in numbers or decrease in price (an increase in numbers would cause that).

So I am highly disappointed by what I expected to be a much cooler product. They should just call this From the Vault: Cards for Commander.

[Penguinizer]

If 10 of the cards are just reprints of fairly easy to find legendary creatures my interest just fell. While Sylvan Library is setting an intersting standard I doubt they'll keep it up. We might see a Stripmine but their previous track record with FtV suggests otherwise.

[Lhurgyof]

>oversized cards

God damnit. I thought they'd realize how stupid that was.

[Sith_Happens]

>oversized cards

God damnit. I thought they'd realize how stupid that was.

My cousin has an oversized Griselbrand. If nothing else (like usable anymore) it's just really cool.

[Lhurgyof]

My cousin has an oversized Griselbrand. If nothing else (like usable anymore) it's just really cool.

Well, I can see how they're really cool, but I hope it's not part of the cost. Because I know that using them isn't an option unless they're a general (and even then it can be annoying, what if it gets put into your library?), and giving me TEN new generals is a bit much.

Even if they make big versions of generals I do use, it'd be iffy. If it doesn't factor into the cost (like, for example, they print the 18 cards as all crap cards and then the oversized cards are supposed to "make the difference) then it isn't a problem, but if they do I'm going to be slightly annoyed.


Also, let's hope that stores don't mark these up.

[Lord Seth]

Gee, no discussion for this long? Let's try to get it started with something new: How do you think the rotating out of Scars of Mirrodin and Magic 2012 will affect Standard?

Obviously, with Return to Ravnica unspoiled, we're operating on limited information, but we can still make some guesses.

I think that Delver of Secrets is going to lose some power. I don't think it'll go out entirely, but Ponder and Mana Leak--two critical cards in its arsenal--are going away, and their replacements aren't going to work as well.

Mono-Green is probably out also. Granted, the deck doesn't see that much play as it is, but Dungrove Elder and Green Sun's Zenith are both rotating out, and with Return to Ravnica being...well, Return to Ravnica (a set emphasizing multicolor), there's probably not going to be too many cards encouraging mono-Green. There was a Mono-Green Infect deck that took #2 at the most recent SCG Open, but Infect is going out also so there goes that.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't know how much it'll affect things in general, but I'll be glad to see Phantasmal image and Phyrexian Metamorph rotate out.

[Zavoniki]

Well obviously all the Birthing Pod decks are dead due to a lack of Birthing Pod.

That being said Naya Pod is currently basically the block Naya deck plus Birthing Pod and better creatures(and better mana), so I think their will be a Naya deck going forward. I'm not as sure about Bant Pod as it loses Phantasmal Image.

Also I could see Block Boros becoming very good as well if it gets a little bit better mana.

Zombies basically doesn't lose anything(Porcelain Legionare I guess???) and depending on the mana may gain the ability to really play white and or green instead of just blue or red.

I was tooling around with Delver now and I think their will still be a Blue-White tempo deck(Runechanters Pike and Spectral Flight aren't leaving) but I wonder if Delver will be a part of it. I could see Delver branching more than it already has into Blue-White Tempo without Delver(due to lacking Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, Mana Leak, etc...) that would probably be close to a U/W humans list with Snapcaster, Geist, and Restoration Angel and a U/x Delver/Talrand deck.

Their will probably be some kind of U/x control deck but I'm not sure what it will look like.

Once again, depending on how good mana becomes, I could see either Esper Tokens(Favorable Winds and Talrands Invocation are awesome) or B/W tokens appearing as they are already kinda decks(well B/W tokens is) that lack good mana.

Wolf-Run will probably go away but I think their will be a G/x ramp deck, I'd guess that relies on the Mana-Dorks into Craterhoof Behemoth plan.

I'm not sure about combo decks... maybe some kind of Burning Vengeance deck? Also if the Golgari mechanic is similar to Dredge(or is dredge... which it isn't(luckily)) I could see the Block Spider Spawning Decks making the jump. Possibly a reanimator deck as Tormods Crypt isn't quite as good as Necrogen Spellbomb and without Birthing Pod or GSZ Grafdiggers cage might see less play. And Gristlebrand is still Gristlebrand even if Elesh-Norn is leaving us.

And now I'm done musing. In summary I predict:

Naya
Boros
Zombies(of all colors)
U/W Tempo
U/x Delver
U/x Control
B/W Tokens
Esper Tokens/Spirits
G/x Ramp

And Possibly in the Combo Department:
U/G/x Spider Spawning
U/R/x Burning Vengeance
B/w/x Reanimator

[Fable Wright]

Zombies actually does lose something important with the loss of Scars and M12: 2-cost removal spells, and Mortarpod. Go for the throat, Doomblade, and Geth's Verdict are all rotating. Also, B/U Zombies loses Phantasmal Image and other color Zombies lose Cemetary Reaper.

[Sith_Happens]

With Rancor around I refuse to believe that G/x something won't make it big. You draw one of those, and more often than not the pain train just doesn't stop for the rest of the game.

[Zavoniki]

Zombies actually does lose something important with the loss of Scars and M12: 2-cost removal spells, and Mortarpod. Go for the throat, Doomblade, and Geth's Verdict are all rotating. Also, B/U Zombies loses Phantasmal Image and other color Zombies lose Cemetary Reaper.

I forgot about Phantasmal Image but I don't know any Zombie list that plays Cemetary Reaper. You want your three drops to be Messanger or possibly Diregraf Captain(though I'm pretty sure Blood Artist is an almost strictly better Captain in Zombies). And without Phantasmal Image I really don't see Blue Zombies. So 4 color Zombies! As for removal, Zombies still has access to Tragic Slip(which it can trigger nearly at will) and Victim of Night for cheap removal plus whatever is in Return to Ravnica. I don't think you even need 8 removal spells(6 is probably fine) and the only important card Victim doesn't hit is Huntmaster of the Fells and the Mirror Match(especially because almost all of your non-Zombies are Vampires) The biggest loss is Porcelain Legionare but that was for fighting Mirran Crusader and other pro-black guys of which their are a lot less after rotation.

[Elagune]

How do you guys think Humans are going to fare after rotation?

I just started playing recently, so I'm not sure about how Ravnica is going to go, but it seems that Humans aren't losing much in the transition with the exception of Mirran Crusader, who could easily by replaced by Silverblade Paladin.

Are either Azorius or Selesnya known for using humans? I've got a W Humans deck that I'm thinking of shifting into G/W post-rotation for Rancor and Mayor of Avabruck, but I don't know...

[tgva8889]

The most important thing Delver loses from rotation is the Phyrexian mana spells. I don't think you can reasonably play a 20-land deck without any real removal spells. Not only are all their other spells weaker, but U/W Delver has no replacements for Gut Shot or Dismember. Maybe there will be a U/X tempo deck, but I doubt that it will be anywhere near as flexible and (therefore) powerful as U/W Delver is today.

However, I find it impossible that there won't be a U/W Geist of St. Traft deck. I mean, we're getting the U/W Guild in Return to Ravnica, so clearly there will be some tools available to help Geist out. Alternatively, U/R with Bonfire might be plausible. Losing Ponder really hurts Delver of Secret's playability. I imagine that Izzet and Azorious will have to give us some tools to make Delver worth it; vanilla 1/1s for U are bad.

I suspect Liliana of the Dark Realms will see some play, at least early on. Being able to fix for Green and Red will be nice, and if you have 4 or 5 Swamps her -3 is a powerful option. And don't tell me we won't get lands with basic land types, it's almost impossible at this point.

Bonfire of the Damned will still be one of the most powerful cards you can possibly play after rotation. I feel that R/G and/or Naya will both remain major players, and with Rakdos coming I'm sure there will be some kind of deck there.

Also, with Phantasmal Image gone, Sigarda becomes a possibly powerful threat. Definitely a card worth keeping your eyes on as things move forward.

None of the Guilds are well-known for having lots of Humans, but this is a Magic set and we've been to Ravnica before. There are certain to be several Human creatures for someone dedicated to such a strategy to play.

Ground Seal is always a card worth remembering. I have a feeling it might be an interesting tool to protect some of your own graveyard shenanigans, depending on what graveyard hate people are trying to play and obviously what you're doing with it.

Spoilers on RTR below.

Spoiler

Show

Golgari Mechanic has apparently been discovered as the following:

Scavenge [Cost] ([Cost], Exile this card from your graveyard: Put X +1/+1 counters on target creature, where X is this card's power. Scavenge only as a Sorcery.)

[Ninjaman]

Maybe there will be an Izzet deck with Delver, Talrand, Runchanters pike and Snapcaster.