Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[tgva8889]

Of all the sets for them to reprint Dark Confidant in, I wish they would print it in a set that doesn't have multicolor cards, as multicolor cards tend to cost less than the power of their abilities would be on any mono-colored card. As cool as more Dark Confidants might be, I would actually love to see them not in Ravnica. Though I suppose it probably wouldn't make as much of a difference as it seems, Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage together in Standard is scary and my guess is that it scared Development too. Also Zombies with Dark Confidant.

Just my thoughts. But there are possible other issues at play, like the fact that Commander players (who are apparently their target casual audience now?) couldn't care less about Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant, whereas the shock lands are format staples (because lands that tap for multiple colors are staples). It wouldn't surprise me, but I kind of wish they wouldn't do it.

[Fable Wright]

Unless I'm overlooking something, Dark Confidant is the second most expensive card in the format after Tarmogoyf.

Expensive does not equal mainstay. He did shoot up in price when modern came out due to speculation, like many other cards did. He's still a powerful card in Legacy hanging over the format. However, right now, he's not being used in the main decks, and he's not something that you really need to get to get into Modern. If something happens, and suddenly Bob becomes a must-have in the format, a reprint is likely. Right now, though, he's off the reprint list. Plus, again, Bob would break Standard.

[Lord Seth]

Expensive does not equal mainstay. He did shoot up in price when modern came out due to speculation, like many other cards did.

And he stayed up. Jund is one of the most popular decks in the format from what I understand, and he's big in it.

He's still a powerful card in Legacy hanging over the format.

Except for the fact he isn't at all. What tier 1 deck uses him?

I'm not saying he isn't played at all in Legacy, he certainly is, but he's really not that popular. Stoneforge Mystic is way bigger in the format and has a lower market value than Dark Confidant.

However, right now, he's not being used in the main decks, and he's not something that you really need to get to get into Modern.

What does that even mean? There is no single card you need to get into Modern or Legacy. That's a useless statement.

If something happens, and suddenly Bob becomes a must-have in the format, a reprint is likely. Right now, though, he's off the reprint list. Plus, again, Bob would break Standard.

He didn't the first time, as far as I know.

[Silverlich]

Return to Ravnica Spoilers! I'm going to be reviewing cards as they are spoiled, despite the fact that I'm probably wrong.

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Yay Golgari! Not sure what I think of this mechanic. It does allow added value from cards, but it sets you up to lose a lot from a bounce or removal spell. A 3/3 for 3 with haste is always nice though, as is upside.


This seems...really, really good. Especially with Snapcaster. Instant speed Faithless looting+ versatility=yes please.


An interesting card, but I don't really see it hitting Constructed. Nice against Bonfire, not so much against Mutilate. Populate...it could be nice sometimes, but I think it will too often feel like "Oh. A 1/1. Yaaaay," or just make you feel bad if you can't get value out of it.


Yay! They printed another red X damage spell! That's exactly what I was looking for...This card does not impress me in the slightest. Either a worse Blaze, or an instant speed Bonfire without the part that makes Bonfire really good. That said, I can imagine Overload being on some really fun Johnny build around cards. Good mechanic, but this card makes me yawn.


Because Bears are more fun when they win limited games for you. The first ability is insane in limited. In Standard, not as much, if only because a lot of decks that will be blocking use black or green anyway. (Zombies, Elves, whatever form Ramp takes this year) The second ability seems good though. Tree of Redemption? 13 1/1 Saprolings? Not getting wiped out by Bonfire the turn afterwards? I can dream, can't I?


This looks painful. One mana negate will be an interesting thing, as will think twice. Could this card be what makes Burning Vengeance work? Will UR Delver overcome its perennial relegation to the reject bin? Will Arcane Melee finally emerge as a mainstream deck? Tune in next time for... THE ADVENTURES OF METAGAME MAX!

Ahem. Next card:

I'm going to lose to this card all freaking year in Limited. Possibly some synergy with Trading Post, definitely with the mill in Innistrad, (BUG mill? I want it to be good...). Would it be possible to go Geralf's into this guy? Also, wonderful creature type line.

They should totally reprint Crucible of Worlds.

[Fable Wright]

And he stayed up. Jund is one of the most popular decks in the format from what I understand, and he's big in it.

Jund is one deck, made up of expensive cards. Given that it's the only tier 1 deck that runs it, it isn't really on the must reprint list.

Except for the fact he isn't at all. What tier 1 deck uses him?

Perhaps I misphrased it. It is a powerful card in Legacy, that is currently hanging over the Modern format. People are watching Bob, as the right cheap Instants or Sorceries could make it a must have.

I'm not saying he isn't played at all in Legacy, he certainly is, but he's really not that popular. Stoneforge Mystic is way bigger in the format and has a lower market value than Dark Confidant.

Bob was more expensive before Modern than Stoneforged was after it left Standard, and was printed in a Large set seven years ago with a smaller print run than Worldwake.

What does that even mean? There is no single card you need to get into Modern or Legacy. That's a useless statement.

There are cards that are staples of the formats, played in almost any decks that can run them. Mostly being Shocklands and Goyf, as they are run in any deck that can run them, while not all black decks require Dark Confidants to work, nor necessarily get better with their addition. I know some Life from the Loam decks run him, and Jund, but things like Ad Nauseum don't, Melira pod only runs a few copies, and he's not really a staple of the format.

He didn't the first time, as far as I know.

Ravnica block had a focus on high CMC cards, and was very much a slow, control format. Signets led to great fixing and decent speed, along with the Karoo lands which allowed for consistent mana bases, with a plethora of powerful curve-toppers. Ghazi Glare was one of the best decks, Solar Flare was back in the format then, and it was a very slow format until Guildpack debuted with the Gruul, which didn't take well to splashing Bob. Bob was way too painful in the format for it to be worth it, though it was still powerful outside of the format.

Compare that to now. We have a bunch of low CMC tempo cards that power cheap game-enders that are limited in strength only by the draw engines they have access too, to the point where Ponder isn't getting reprinted. And you think that Bob would be fair in Standard?

[Lord Seth]

Jund is one deck, made up of expensive cards. Given that it's the only tier 1 deck that runs it,

Which changes nothing about its price.

it isn't really on the must reprint list.

I'm sure Wizards of the Coast is glad to know you can read their minds on that matter as to what they view as criteria for "must reprint" cards.

Bob was more expensive before Modern than Stoneforged was after it left Standard, and was printed in a Large set seven years ago with a smaller print run than Worldwake.

Which disproves...absolutely nothing I said!

There are cards that are staples of the formats, played in almost any decks that can run them. Mostly being Shocklands and Goyf, as they are run in any deck that can run them, while not all black decks require Dark Confidants to work, nor necessarily get better with their addition. I know some Life from the Loam decks run him, and Jund, but things like Ad Nauseum don't, Melira pod only runs a few copies, and he's not really a staple of the format.

And neither is Tarmogoyf, you can just run a deck without him. And neither are the shocklands, you can just do a mono-colored deck.

If the argument is "you don't have to play with him" then you don't have to play with any card in any format (not counting basic lands for obvious reasons). It doesn't change the fact the price is the second highest in the format.

Compare that to now. We have a bunch of low CMC tempo cards that power cheap game-enders that are limited in strength only by the draw engines they have access too, to the point where Ponder isn't getting reprinted.

More mind-reading on your part as to why Ponder wasn't reprinted. Unless Wizards of the Coast actually said that. Did they say that? Seriously, did they?

Because I'd think the more likely reason would just be (1) it's banned in Modern and they don't want to, in Standard sets, be reprinting cards that are banned in their main formats, and (2) they want to weaken the dominant deck in the format and of the Delver/Snapcaster/Mana Leak/Ponder package, they can get rid of the latter two a lot quicker than the former two (not to mention it doesn't completely kill the deck and alienate players).

And you think that Bob would be fair in Standard?

I think it's funny you pose this question while having no idea what Standard will actually be considering we don't know what's in Return to Ravnica yet. I don't think either way about whether he'd be fair in Standard because I don't know what Standard will be yet. Unless you have mind reading powers and know the spoilers already...

[Mystic Muse]

Unless you have mind reading powers and know the spoilers already...

Hey, if you do, can you tell me if Birds of Paradise is in it?

[breakdownjason]

So FNM this past Friday didn't go QUITE as well as planned (I ended up going 1-2, 1-2, 2-0 and 0-2). The first two rounds I should have won, but ended up dropping both game threes due to top decking lands the entire time. The worst was when I made a 6 life swing dropping my opponent to 4 and going back to 7 (Killing Wave + Blood Artist = Amazing) and proceeded to top deck lands for the remainder of the game. The second round, I misplayed pretty badly game three and lost of my own accord. Round 3 I had a bye (and it was quite possibly the longest, most boring 50 minutes I've had for a while) and spent most of that time sitting trying to determine how I was managing to pull so much land exactly when I didn't need it. Round 4 I went up against B/R Vampires and cleaned up incredibly fast (good draws and a less experienced opponent played into that I believe) and saved me from being swept the night at least. Round 5 I got thrown to the wolves (literally) against a Kessig Wolf Run deck that just beat me into the ground as fast as it could. So, I made a couple minor adjustments and hopefully next week goes a little better :). Deck posted below and as always, PEACH :) (Despise is going to stay until rotation, as my metagame has TONS of creature based decks).

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Lands
Swamp x21 (Ghost Quarter never saw play and the colorless did slow me down by a turn a couple times. I of course never pulled them against the Wolf Run deck though...)

Creatures
Gravecrawler x4
Diregraf Ghoul x4
Blood Artist x4
Geralf's Messenger x4
Cemetary Reaper x2
Disciple of Bolas x2 (A new addition, I decided that the card draw/sac potential was too much to ignore)
Phyrexian Obliterator

Instants/Sorceries
Doom Blade x2
Go for the Throat x3
Tragic Slip x3
Despise x3
Killing Wave x3

Artifacts
Mortarpod x2
Birthing Pod x2

Sideboard
Ratchet Bomb
Hex Parasite
Mimic Vat x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Appetite for Brains x2
Killing Wave
Duress x2
Geth's Verdict x2
Mutilate x2

So that's about all for now :). Completely looking forward to RTR though. In fact, I went and cashed in a couple cards to help me get ready to update my deck for the rotation (namely 3 more Woodland Cemetery and a couple Stingerfling's for my new sideboard).

[Fable Wright]

Stuff

Okay. Main point I'm trying to make: Bob is not currently at the top of cards that Wizards needs to reprint (They declared that they would reprint staples, not expensive cards, and Bob is by no means a staple card of the format, which I'm trying to say) and would be destructive to Standard right now (because low CMC Tempo cards, Snapcaster Mage, Delver, and Runechanter's Pike are not going to be rotating and feed off of a mass of cheap Instants and Sorceries, which also feed Bob beautifully). There have been articles by Wizards of the Coast about the key players in Delver and why it's so good, most notably this one- The key line about "how powerful it was in concert with the abundance of one-mana cantrips in Standard" (of which there will still be several post-rotation) and the prevalence of Ponder in all the Delver lists and the sheer power it has in that deck, I would assume that Wizards is not reprinting it to act as a power limiter for Delver, much in the way that they aren't reprinting Mana Leak for that reason (hinted heavily at in the above article). No, I can't say for certain that that's the reason- however, given that Ponder has been in the format for 4-5 years now since Lorwyn without any problems, I would assume Delver is the cause.

The fact remains, as the FFL would have discovered if Bob was ever on the Return to Ravnica reprint list- with the shell of cheap Instants and Sorceries, Delver, and Snapcaster (and to a lesser extent Runechanter's Pike) all feeding off cheap cards which react synergistically with Dark Confidant (which adds something that the deck really wanted- a powerful source of card advantage at minimal price to help keep up its tempo based plays)- I would assume that they would mark it out as a card too powerful for Standard.

And now, for something completely different.

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Have any of you seen this yet? I found it in a random google search- in each of the guild sections, they discuss what happens to the guild after Dissension. Particularly interesting, IMO, is the Simic article- this is an interesting plot point...

Either way, the section there doesn't seem to be completely finished- the Guild Leaderboard is down, the images in the quiz don't work, and I can't find any links to the page on the main site. Interesting...

[Lhurgyof]

Local store is selling FTV:Realms for $75!!!! Over twice the MSRP... I hate stores taking advantage of people like this... And I have school so I won't be able to wait in line- nor can my friends get me one- limit 1 per customer.

I hate life sometimes. I sold my Urborg and Grove because I was going to get this...

[Duos]

Price gouging sucks no matter what it is you're buying. I feel for you, though.

Anyways, what with shocks (hopefully) coming back, I think the mana will have improved enough post rotation to run Strangleroot and Messenger in the same deck. I was planning on building something in Izzet colors and something in Golgari colors, but I guess I'll wait and see if spoilers turn up anything juicy in the next week or so.

[Lord Seth]

Okay. Main point I'm trying to make: Bob is not currently at the top of cards that Wizards needs to reprint (They declared that they would reprint staples, not expensive cards, and Bob is by no means a staple card of the format, which I'm trying to say)

Well...

and would be destructive to Standard right now (because low CMC Tempo cards, Snapcaster Mage, Delver, and Runechanter's Pike are not going to be rotating and feed off of a mass of cheap Instants and Sorceries, which also feed Bob beautifully).

Delver of Secrets isn't rotating out technically, but I would be unsurprised to see it rotate out of the tournament scene. The card is absolutely dependent on library manipulation, and the previous best Standard card at doing that--Ponder--is out.

If you want proof of this fact, I invite you to look at the top finishes at Innistrad Block tournaments, the biggest of which are the Pro Tour Avacyn Restored and Grand Prix Anaheim. You will notice that there are, in the top 8 decks of those two tournaments, not a single Delver of Secrets. When you cut out cards like Ponder, Delver of Secrets ceases to be a format-dominating card and becomes too unreliable to be a major player anymore.

Index MAY be enough to keep it around. But unless there's some great library manipulation cantrip in Return to Ravnica, I think the card is going to disappear considerably.

There have been articles by Wizards of the Coast about the key players in Delver and why it's so good, most notably this one-

You know, while there are some things I agree with in that article, the claim that "you can prove mathematically that creatures were too weak for most of Magic's history" is so hilariously silly it practically wrecks the whole article. Just...wow.

The key line about "how powerful it was in concert with the abundance of one-mana cantrips in Standard" (of which there will still be several post-rotation)

Such as...what? Thought Scour? Thought Scour is a good card, at least when paired with Snapcaster Mage, but it doesn't help Delver of Secrets out one iota.

and the prevalence of Ponder in all the Delver lists and the sheer power it has in that deck,

Which it will no longer have.

I would assume that Wizards is not reprinting it to act as a power limiter for Delver, much in the way that they aren't reprinting Mana Leak for that reason (hinted heavily at in the above article).

Which is what I said. However...

No, I can't say for certain that that's the reason- however, given that Ponder has been in the format for 4-5 years now since Lorwyn without any problems, I would assume Delver is the cause.

Or Modern banning it. Honestly, tell me...have they, in a Standard set, ever reprinted a card that was banned in another major format?

The fact remains, as the FFL would have discovered if Bob was ever on the Return to Ravnica reprint list- with the shell of cheap Instants and Sorceries, Delver, and Snapcaster (and to a lesser extent Runechanter's Pike) all feeding off cheap cards which react synergistically with Dark Confidant (which adds something that the deck really wanted- a powerful source of card advantage at minimal price to help keep up its tempo based plays)- I would assume that they would mark it out as a card too powerful for Standard.

What synergism does Delver of Secrets have with Dark Confidant? Dark Confidant doesn't increase the odds of you drawing an Instant or Sorcery to flip it, and as noted, the best thing for increasing Insectile Aberration reliability is Index, which is no Ponder.

[tgva8889]

Lord Seth, I think you misunderstood the very last paragraph you responded to. It didn't say that Delver and Dark Confidant had synergy, but that they had synergy with the same cards (Index and Ponder and the like), which is true.

I think that while Ponder is a card that is too good, it is made problematic by there being something as powerful as Delver of Secrets. I'm sure there are a list of other things you could have done with it, but few of them made games over on turn 2 or 3 like Delver did. I don't think the cards were really thought about enough together.

On the topic of creatures being too weak historically, the whole statement is this:

But the reality (beyond the fact that you can prove mathematically that creatures were too weak for most of Magic's history, based on the number of turns it takes to resolve an average "goldfish" game state) is simply that spells are much more inherently powerful than creatures.

He specifies the terms in which he is making such a statement. It isn't "creatures weren't powerful because they don't win any games" or "there just weren't enough good creatures compared to good spells," it's "creatures moved too slowly in a goldfish situation, or a situation where you are doing things and your opponent is literally doing nothing at all." The statement he is making is actually not a statement of fact but a statement of judgment, as what "too slowly" is means different things to different people and/or groups.

While I'm sure there were exceptions, many creature decks have been powerful not because of their creatures, but because of spells like Green Sun's Zenith, Rancor, Necropotence, Bonfire of the Damned, Blightning, Cranial Plating, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Sword of Bert and Ernie, etc. Just to name all the ones that immediately come to my mind.

Price gouging sucks no matter what it is you're buying. I feel for you, though.

Anyways, what with shocks (hopefully) coming back, I think the mana will have improved enough post rotation to run Strangleroot and Messenger in the same deck. I was planning on building something in Izzet colors and something in Golgari colors, but I guess I'll wait and see if spoilers turn up anything juicy in the next week or so.

I only reply to this to note that the mana did exist in Standard that allowed you to run both Strangleroot Geist and Geralf's Messenger in the same deck...just not as 2 and 3 drops. I had Messenger in a GB Pod deck as a "4 drop" and it worked fine; the card is good enough to go toe-to-toe with 4 drops if you want, and I usually followed with with Pod for the Messenger-Metamorph Machine Gun.

You still don't really want to run both in the same deck, but running, say, the new Guildmage with Messenger is quite possible, assuming you are willing to cry at your mana base a few times.

[Lord Seth]

I think that while Ponder is a card that is too good,

As pointed out, as far as I know it was not particularly disruptive until Delver of Secrets. Did it cause problems in the years before?

it is made problematic by there being something as powerful as Delver of Secrets. I'm sure there are a list of other things you could have done with it, but few of them made games over on turn 2 or 3 like Delver did.

How the heck can you finish a game on turn 2 or 3 with Delver of Secrets? I can't see how you can on turn 2 even on a theoretical basis, as even with the most ridiculously great hand ever you can't do that level of damage.

In Standard, the best you can do is play an Island, cast Delver of Secrets turn 1, have it flip (by pure luck) on turn 2, Mutagenic Growth it 4 times, then use Snapcaster Mage on Mutagenic Growth once, then Gut Shot twice. Even with this hand that you'll never see, you'll deal...15 damage. Not enough.

Turn 3 is theoretically possible, but still another case of you needing such a perfect hand and your opponent not having a single way to disrupt it (all it takes is one blocker or removal spell to put a kabosh on the whole thing).

Heck, I'm having trouble seeing how you could win on turn 2 with Delver of Secrets even in something like Legacy. It is possible (though difficult) to win on turn 2 in Legacy, but if you do it's definitely not going to be through Delver of Secrets, it'll be through Storm or Goblin Charbelcher.

Interestingly, it is possible to win on turn 2 in Standard, but it's not with Delver. Turn 1 play a forest and a Glistener Elf, turn 2 Mutagenic Growth it four times, then cast Rancor on it. It'll even win through a 1 toughness blocker!

On the topic of creatures being too weak historically, the whole statement is this:

He specifies the terms in which he is making such a statement. It isn't "creatures weren't powerful because they don't win any games" or "there just weren't enough good creatures compared to good spells," it's "creatures moved too slowly in a goldfish situation, or a situation where you are doing things and your opponent is literally doing nothing at all." The statement he is making is actually not a statement of fact but a statement of judgment, as what "too slowly" is means different things to different people and/or groups.

He claimed you can prove mathematically that creatures were "too slow." This is impossible because what constitutes too slow is opinion.

[tgva8889]

The statement is meaningless, but perhaps the experiment (of which we do not know enough to judge) was not. It is more a "too weak for or in comparison to what?" situation than a "well that's just not right" one.

And I say "game is over" not in a literal sense but more the feeling sense, like the "well I could keep playing but there's a really large percentage this game is over" kind of feeling. While you aren't just immediately dead, there is an effect of being so far behind that it feels impossible even if it isn't. I suppose Delver might not be that extreme, but it is the closest and part of the reason Delver was such a powerful deck is that sometimes you just crush them by having a 3/2 flier attacking on turn 2 or 3 and it doesn't matter what they're doing.

I'm confused on your beliefs though. Do you think Ponder is too good or not? I think that it is a problematic card and probably too good, but it was never problematic in a way that attracted any attention. The 1-mana deck-stacking cantrips have in the last 2 years, however, generated quite a buzz. In the times of Cawblade Preordain had just as many copies as Jace in Top 8s at one point and there was much discussion of banning it, just as we had discussion of banning Ponder recently. Delver of Secrets is, I think, the card that made Ponder's effect obvious and powerful. But it's hard to determine the effect of Ponder because it isn't winning any games. Because Delver wins the games, though, we're seeing it as problematic. You note yourself that Delver without Ponder isn't particularly powerful. Ponder absent Delver, however, has still been played in many formats. I know it was good enough to get banned in Modern and many Legacy decks play it to support Brainstorm. I'm not sure which of Delver or Ponder is the more powerful or problematic card, but it's much easier to deny people access to 1-mana deck-stacking cantrips than it is to deny people cards that are powerful with them. There are just so many possibilities for the second category and they aren't always so obvious.

[Foeofthelance]

He claimed you can prove mathematically that creatures were "too slow." This is impossible because what constitutes too slow is opinion.

Creatures, by definition, will always be slower than spells. If you and your opponent are both at 5 life and have five mana available, then casting your Hollowhenge Beast means nothing when he casts Lava Axe on his turn. Cards like Merfolk Looter and Rummaging Goblin take three turns to match the effects of things such as Compulsive Research and Faithless Looting, despite being costed similarly. That is what he means by always being too slow in a Goldfish situation, where a creature always loses when compared to a matching spell.

[IthilanorStPete]

I've been reading coverage of the Player's Championship, and it reminded me of a question I've had for a long time - what makes Upheaval good? Since it bounces everything, it seems like it's hard to take advantage of. It acts as a board reset...except that you're not left with a bunch of lands to cast powerful spells with, in traditional control deck fashion. And at 6 mana, it seems difficult to float mana, cast Upheaval, then cast a decent-sized threat. Could someone provide some insight?

[Penguinizer]

Upheaval was good since once you got to 9 mana you could upheaval and then play Psychatog. You could then remove the discarded cards to have very big creature.

[IthilanorStPete]

I can see synergy with Dr. Teeth, but what about more generally? Some of the pros at the Player's Championship were saying Upheaval was one of the best cards in the cube.

[Sith_Happens]

I've been reading coverage of the Player's Championship, and it reminded me of a question I've had for a long time - what makes Upheaval good? Since it bounces everything, it seems like it's hard to take advantage of. It acts as a board reset...except that you're not left with a bunch of lands to cast powerful spells with, in traditional control deck fashion. And at 6 mana, it seems difficult to float mana, cast Upheaval, then cast a decent-sized threat. Could someone provide some insight?

The only mana you need to be able to float is one for a Wild Mongrel or two for a Psychatog (assuming you replay one of your lands). Your opponent now has one turn to live.

Alternatively, use it after a High Tide.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the Mongrel/Tog part (sort of, I left the page open for ten minutes before replying).

[tgva8889]

You restart the game, except for 3 things: 1) you get to go first if you haven't played your land that turn, and 2) life totals don't change, and 3) you get to float extra mana to cast additional spells.

This means on turn, say, 7, you could cast Upheaval, float a mana, play a land and then cast Stoneforge Mystic and go get something absurd. You could on 9 lands cast Upheaval, float 3, and then play a land and cast Jace. In fact, any threat that can win the game on its own decently quickly is a huge play after an Upheaval. And you get to take advantage of extra mana while your opponent starts on turn 1. It can also randomly force them to discard a ton of useful cards, which is not of huge relevance all the time but can be useful in Cube, a format where you only have 1 of any particular card.

And, at its worst, you just get to start over and clear your opponent's board if you need some breathing room. The effect is very, very powerful.

[9mm]

He claimed you can prove mathematically that creatures were "too slow." This is impossible because what constitutes too slow is opinion.

no, actually, creatures have summoning sickness, spells don't. The creatures who's activatiable without the need of haste increase the cost. creatures as a whole, take longer than spells to effect the game as they either come later or have to wait a turn.

[Sith_Happens]

no, actually, creatures have summoning sickness, spells don't. The creatures who's activatiable without the need of haste increase the cost. creatures as a whole, take longer than spells to effect the game as they either come later or have to wait a turn.

I think it's the "prove mathematically" part of the sentence that Lord Seth finds ridiculous. Which, in absence of a quantitative definition of "too slow," it kind of is.

[Lord Seth]

And I say "game is over" not in a literal sense but more the feeling sense, like the "well I could keep playing but there's a really large percentage this game is over" kind of feeling. While you aren't just immediately dead, there is an effect of being so far behind that it feels impossible even if it isn't.

Which you really can't do by turn 3 with Delver of Secrets unless you have the absurd luck of playing a Delver, flipping it, then playing two Delvers and flipping those.

I suppose Delver might not be that extreme, but it is the closest and part of the reason Delver was such a powerful deck is that sometimes you just crush them by having a 3/2 flier attacking on turn 2 or 3 and it doesn't matter what they're doing.

How is Delver the closest? Any deck in Standard--well, any good deck--has that effect once they get going, and they can all get going pretty fast if you don't deal with them (except for the control types, whose strategy is to deal with your threats and then win). An early Delver flip doesn't seem much different to me than when someone gets out a Strangleroot Geist with a Rancor on it on their second turn.

I'm confused on your beliefs though. Do you think Ponder is too good or not?

It probably pushes things a little too far in Standard while Delver of Secrets is around, though it obviously was okay in previous Standard environments. It's hardly overpowered in Legacy, though.

Still, I don't think it's Ponder+Delver that was particularly strong so much as it was Ponder+Delver+Snapcaster Mage+Mana Leak being around at the same time. Though I do think even that combination is a little overrated in terms of how it stacks up to its rival decks in Standard.

I think that it is a problematic card and probably too good, but it was never problematic in a way that attracted any attention. The 1-mana deck-stacking cantrips have in the last 2 years, however, generated quite a buzz. In the times of Cawblade Preordain had just as many copies as Jace in Top 8s at one point and there was much discussion of banning it, just as we had discussion of banning Ponder recently.

I'll admit I wasn't playing Standard at that point, but really? Banning Preordain? When Stoneforge Mystic and Jace were around and far better targets? Preordain got played probably because it's a good card for any Blue deck that doesn't have access to Ponder or Brainstorm, and the top deck at that point was, well, Blue.

Delver of Secrets is, I think, the card that made Ponder's effect obvious and powerful. But it's hard to determine the effect of Ponder because it isn't winning any games. Because Delver wins the games, though, we're seeing it as problematic. You note yourself that Delver without Ponder isn't particularly powerful. Ponder absent Delver, however, has still been played in many formats. I know it was good enough to get banned in Modern and many Legacy decks play it to support Brainstorm.

I've heard some disagreement with the decision to ban it in Modern. I'm not sure if I think it was a bad idea, but I do feel some of their bannings in Modern were rather trigger-happy rather than waiting to see how things would turn out (remember how everyone was freaking out about Griselbrand and saying he needed to be banned in Legacy before he wrecked the format? And the they didn't ban him and he...didn't wreck it?). Hopefully they'll edge off of that, considering that the frequent bannings were a complaint I often heard about the format.

I feel it's worth pointing out, though, that Ponder wasn't banned in Modern because it was too powerful with Delver or anything else aggro/tempo, it was banned (along with Preordain) because it made things too easy for combo decks.

The only mana you need to be able to float is one for a Wild Mongrel or two for a Psychatog (assuming you replay one of your lands). Your opponent now has one turn to live.

Alternatively, use it after a High Tide.

Why would you play Upheaval and High Tide in the same deck?

no, actually, creatures have summoning sickness, spells don't. The creatures who's activatiable without the need of haste increase the cost. creatures as a whole, take longer than spells to effect the game as they either come later or have to wait a turn.

Irrelevant. The claim was that you could mathematically prove they were too slow.

Look at Delver of Secrets and Geist of Saint Traft. Those are pretty fast creatures; Delver of Secrets can be a 3/2 flyer for U if you're lucky while Geist swings for 6 damage a turn and is immune to targeted removal. Some people think they're way too fast, whereas some are fine with them. This is utterly a matter of opinion. You can do all the math you want to show how fast they are, but whether that's too fast is impossible to prove mathematically by definition.

[Sith_Happens]

Why would you play Upheaval and High Tide in the same deck?

1. Get mana.
2. Clear board.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Of course, that's not what High Tide is usually used for, but it's something you could do and you'd probably win not long after doing it.

[tgva8889]

Delver does the most damage for the least amount of turns/mana spent setting up, I think. It might just be a problem with Delver of Secrets the card by itself and have nothing to do with Ponder, but the card is in general powerful because of how quickly it gives you an evasive 3/2 flier and how well its colors are designed to let you keep that 3/2 flier. It's possible that Strangleroot Geist + Rancor is a worse interaction, but it's not being played right now and I haven't played against it so I don't really know for sure.

I suppose it is worth noting that Delver without much deck manipulation has been seeing some play in Modern and is apparently a powerful deck, so perhaps the issue is more Delver than Ponder.

Part of the issue with cards like Preordain in the Caw-Blade era is that they are clearly the best. There were plenty of other playable one-mana blue cantrips, but none of them deck-stack nearly as well as Preordain. Choosing between Opt and Twisted Image is entirely different than choosing between Preordain and Twisted Image just by the void in the power level of what you're doing.

I'm not sure how much of a problem this is, but it was interesting when both Preordain and Ponder were legal because for some decks there was a necessary choice. You did get to play a lot of the effect if you wanted, but I think many decks didn't want 8 copies and therefore chose, and the cards were close in power level but had different effects and did somewhat different things.

I see "made things too easy for combo decks" as "was really powerful in combo decks" or perhaps "made combo decks more powerful than desired" which still applies to my point, which was that Ponder is still a powerful card absent Delver while Delver is not nearly as powerful a card absent Ponder.

Their reasoning for bans in Modern was less for the health of the format and more for format diversity. There wasn't really any problem with Wild Nacatl, as Zoo wasn't destroying the format or anything, but it did invalidate other possible decks by being the best at what it did. Similarly, I think they wanted to weaken the blue combo deck's consistency to make other kinds of decks more viable since at the level of consistency it had, it didn't destroy the format but it did prevent other decks from being viable.

[Lord Seth]

Delver does the most damage for the least amount of turns/mana spent setting up, I think. It might just be a problem with Delver of Secrets the card by itself and have nothing to do with Ponder, but the card is in general powerful because of how quickly it gives you an evasive 3/2 flier and how well its colors are designed to let you keep that 3/2 flier. It's possible that Strangleroot Geist + Rancor is a worse interaction, but it's not being played right now and I haven't played against it so I don't really know for sure.

I feel mono-Green is an underappreciated deck right now. Dungrove Elder, Strangleroot Geist, and Predator Ooze are all strong creatures that are hard to get rid of, and Rancor is probably the best aura ever printed. I considered switching to mono-Green after being stomped by one at a PTQ, but then I saw that Dungrove Elder was rotating out and lost some interest.

I suppose it is worth noting that Delver without much deck manipulation has been seeing some play in Modern and is apparently a powerful deck, so perhaps the issue is more Delver than Ponder.

Er...Serum Visions? Magma Jet?

[tgva8889]

Serum Visions is the one of those being played with Delver (though apparently not always in all 4 copies). I don't pretend to know enough about Modern, but what I've seen recently lacks Magma Jets at all. I did say "without much" not "lacking any."

[Fable Wright]

...Wow, have you seen this article? Ignoring all of the "check out our website" bits, there's still this interesting nugget of information:

The Return to Ravnica Prerelease is going to be awesome for a number of reasons, one of which is that you're going to be able to play with your Prerelease promo. And there are five Prerelease promos—one for each guild in Return to Ravnica!

Wizards really seems to like making big deals out of prereleases. Still, I wonder how this will affect the format...

[raymundo]

Wasn't that one ofmthe first things they announced?

What do you mean - affect the format? The promo probably is the legendary guild champion and this will mostmlikely just reduce their price. Which is a good thing if they are constructed playable and kinda meaningless if they are not ;)