Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[Penguinizer]

Most combo decks have multiple plans to deal with it. For example, in Legacy, if you hit Tendrils of Agony they still have Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens. Hitting their mana is equally pointless as they have enough sources to go around.

Indeed the best method is hitting their draw engine. This means Ad Nauseam/draw 4/doomsday. Even then, they have backup plans in the form of Iggypop/Burning Wish/short storm into Empty the Warrens.

In modern, you don't have that much combo and what there is is rather flexible. For example, in a pod deck they can either go for a combo win with melira+??? or Kiki-Jiki. Even then if you hit one they can just go for pod shenanigans and win with beats.

Essentially, it punishes mono-plan decks and is in turn countered by flexibility. It is also severely hampered by being slow at turn 4 which is why Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are the more likely choices.

[Zavoniki]

I really don't like the uncounterable Cranial because it punishes Engine decks not the combo decks its aimed at.

For example I play a Gifts Ungiven based deck in modern. It can win through various uses of Gifts. All these modes can be done without Gifts(these modes being Splinter Twin combo and reanimating a Gristlebrand), but it is very difficult(I only run 2 Splinter Twin, 1 Kikki-Jikki, and only 1 Gristlebrand). If you cast it against Storm in Modern and taking Pyromancer's Ascension they can't win(I'm assuming you also boarded in graveyard hate for the Past in Flames). Normally I wouldn't mind because I could just counter it, but not anymore. If it resolves and they name Gifts I have to scoop. The chances of me winning a game with a Gifts deck without Gifts is so low that there is no point in playing anymore. Birthing Pod decks don't have it quite as bad, but their deck still runs way worse. I don't see it affecting any other formats that badly, because Standard has no decks that care, and Legacy and Vintage have a combination of speed and the ability to diversify access to engines(though the use of the Wish cycle) that it doesn't matter. Now you could say that that's fair, if you use a broken engine someone should be able to side in four cards and crush you. But these decks aren't breaking Modern. Birthing Pod is one of the best decks, but it shares the space with Delver, Jund, RG Tron, and Storm. Two of those decks are badly screwed up by this(Storm, Birthing Pod) to the point that I don't think they are playable. The both also lose a secondary engine if a second resolves(Past in Flames and Restoration Angel respectively). While Pod doesn't normally play counterspells, my main annoyance is that there is now no answer to this aside from Mindbreak Trap which sees no play as anything other than a zero cost anti-storm card. So its not really an answer. /end rant

tl;dr I really dislike the 2BR screw you named card you suck card.

[Sith_Happens]

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Doesn't matter. As an aggro player, having a three-drop must remove is amazing. Remember, Leatherback Baloth was a card that got people really excited even though it cost GGG, and although it didn't see real play that was more because of a lack of support than anyone over-rating it; I actually did run it in a rogue deck, and it absolutely wrecked face every time I played it. This is another three-mana 4/x, and even if it has 1 less Toughness it more than makes up for it with a less restrictive mana cost and two (2) relevant anti-control abilities. For aggressive deck this card is absolutely incredible, even borderline broken; ramping into a turn-2 4/4 that your opponent can't counter or force you to discard is an incredible advantage for an aggressive deck, and one that's very hard for your opponent to come back from if not immediately answered.

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Also, don't forget which aura Loxodon Smiter shares a color with. Ramping into a turn two 4/4? Not something you can just ignore. Swinging with a 6/4 trample on turn three? You'd better have your precious removal right now or it's going to be a very painful game.

[Squark]

If your combo is that fragile, you need to beaf it up. Extripate was already in format, so it's not that big a game changer

[tgva8889]

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Other effects that do what Memoricide does in effect are just better. Playing Memorcide with Boseiju has never made it better enough, even in formats where people played Cranial Extraction in their main deck (AND HAD BOSEIJU ACCESS). It really isn't that big a deal.

1) You're playing a card that doesn't actually affect the board. Against a lot of decks, it just doesn't do anything (like pretty much any deck that plays dudes and attacks).
2) You're playing a card that costs 4 mana. It's stoppable by the many things that can stop 4-mana cards EXCEPT COUNTERSPELLS. There are ways to, for example, make yourself untargetable. Or, you know, just kill them.

I'm not saying it's not insignificant. But it hasn't broken anything and I doubt it's going to do anything other than look cool and maybe be an effective sideboard card against some decks that are already somewhat unfair to begin with. I don't think Slaughter Games is going to have nearly the effect you think it will.

[breakdownjason]

Well, FNM went a bit better this week than last time I went out for it. I ostensibly went 2-2 (with a bye the first round since i was a little late and the shop felt like being nice I guess), losing to 2 mirror matches of my deck (which to be fair was unexpected since I run mono-black zombies and black/red seems to be the craze in my metagame tonight) and taking down mono white tokens and a seemingly rogue UBG ramp deck. Zombies has an amazingly good matchup against ramp though (especially after sideboarding in a couple of Appetite for Brains and Surgical Extractions) which was a little surprising to me. And my best play of the night came against it as well. Ramp drops a Birthing Pod and my opponent sacs his Mist Raven to look for a 5 drop. The turn before, i had played a Go for the Throat on a Thragtusk, and had top decked a Surgical Extraction that I decided to hold on to. When I saw him go for the pod, I decided that another Thragtusk on the field may cause problems, so i decided to take care of that problem and responded by exiling all 4 of them, leaving my opponent with no 5 drop creatures, so not only did he miss out on the 5 life, he also cleared his own board and i swung for the win (and round) on my next turn. Absolutely beautiful if I do say so myself. Totally worth it. Now come on Ravnica!

[Lord Seth]

no it means it's degenerate combo hate.

A 4-mana card that's relegated to only decks that play Black and Red is hardly degenerate, especially because the Black and Red decks I can actually think of wouldn't be playing this. What decks do you honestly see using it?

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Doesn't matter. As an aggro player, having a three-drop must remove is amazing. Remember, Leatherback Baloth was a card that got people really excited even though it cost GGG, and although it didn't see real play that was more because of a lack of support than anyone over-rating it; I actually did run it in a rogue deck, and it absolutely wrecked face every time I played it. This is another three-mana 4/x, and even if it has 1 less Toughness it more than makes up for it with a less restrictive mana cost and two (2) relevant anti-control abilities. For aggressive deck this card is absolutely incredible, even borderline broken; ramping into a turn-2 4/4 that your opponent can't counter or force you to discard is an incredible advantage for an aggressive deck, and one that's very hard for your opponent to come back from if not immediately answered.

Oh, it's a great card, no doubt. I just don't see it as particularly brutal against control, which was the assertion made. Control might actually be better against it than other decks, because to them it's just another beater to be removed rather than something that legitimately stands in their way.

[Foeofthelance]

Last night was just...weird.

Tried running the Delver/Bolas deck I've been tinkering with. Went 1-3, which isn't unexpected. The problem was that it tended to mana flood, even with only twenty two lands. There was even one game where I managed to play every single last one of them. (The other guy was playing Miracles. The average play was something along the lines of, "I play a land, then play Rampant Growth/Borderland Ranger." "Ok, then on my turn I'll play a land and Devastation Tide/Terminus the Ranger...")

Having lost, I decided to pick up Izzet vs. Golgari and somehow ended up getting a box with two Izzet decks and no Golgari...

[Androgeus]

Having lost, I decided to pick up Izzet vs. Golgari and somehow ended up getting a box with two Izzet decks and no Golgari...

While I may call that a win, I've heard that wizards do replace mispackaged product if you contact them

[Aidan305]

Having lost, I decided to pick up Izzet vs. Golgari and somehow ended up getting a box with two Izzet decks and no Golgari...

Double the Niv-Mizzets, double the fun.

Especially with Curiosity.

[Foeofthelance]

Double the Niv-Mizzets, double the fun.

Especially with Curiosity.

No, just one Niv. They package the face card unattached from the rest of the deck. So I put Niv and Jarad aside, opened the Izzet deck and flipped it over. Kiln Fiend, card, card, card... Then I reached for the Golgari deck, flipped it over and... Kiln Fiend? Wait, this can't be right. Did I pick up the Izzet deck again by accident? Nope, just two identical decks.

[9mm]

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skyline predator proving 1 extra toughness is worth an extra colored mana?

[Zavoniki]

If your combo is that fragile, you need to beaf it up. Extripate was already in format, so it's not that big a game changer

Extirpate requires Gifts being cast in the first case, in which case they are probably already dead. Cranial Extraction effects are very very different from Extirpate/Surgical Extraction. Both are bad cards that you shouldn't put in your decks, but Extirpate/Surgical Extraction don't actually do anything while the others can at least stop some combo decks. The problem with Extirpate/Surgical Extraction is that they don't actually stop anything. You've presumably already cast the card so your just casting something for literally only a shuffle of their library. If you've caused them to discard it using Duress or similar, then you should be focused on making sure they don't draw other copies/winning the game not Extirpating. The only thing I can seem them being against is the Gifts for Unburial Rites/Fatty plan, and thats only because you can hit the Gifts if they Gifts for value in advance(in which case you have to know they are on the Unburial Rights plan) or the Unburial Rites or fatty depending on how the game plays out. They aren't even good against flashback cards as your still down half a card in the exchange.

That being said that was my gut reaction to the card, and I overreacted. Going back and looking over the decks I mentioned, it's not as bad as I thought. All Gifts decks(the decks most affected by this card) in Modern have back up plans(Mystical Teachings, Merchant Scroll, Tron Lands, Delvers, Discard outlets, etc...). It also only really hurts if you are on the draw because otherwise you just cast Gifts in response. Birthing Pod probably cares about this card the most after Gifts but considering you can cost Pod on turn 2 and kill them turn 4 pretty easily, even without Pod thats not that bad. And Storm runs Ascension and Past in Flames for just this situation. I guess maybe Ad Nauseum or Hive-Mind might care?

[Squark]

Extirpate requires Gifts being cast in the first case, in which case they are probably already dead.

No, it requires Gifts to be in the graveyard. Black decks are not exactly bad at getting cards into your graveyard.

[Lord Seth]

Extirpate requires Gifts being cast in the first case, in which case they are probably already dead. Cranial Extraction effects are very very different from Extirpate/Surgical Extraction. Both are bad cards that you shouldn't put in your decks, but Extirpate/Surgical Extraction don't actually do anything while the others can at least stop some combo decks.

Is that why five of the top 8 decks at the most recent SCG Legacy Open had Surgical Extraction?

[Sith_Happens]

Hey look, new spoiler card:

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This plus Corpsejack Menace. Sac it to Disciple of Bolas if you're playing against tokens or some other deck that can keep it tapped down easily.

[Zavoniki]

Is that why five of the top 8 decks at the most recent SCG Legacy Open had Surgical Extraction?

Because one of the top decks in Legacy involves reanimating Gristlebrand, and Surgical Extraction is a free, colorless answer to that. It's also not a terrible counter to Snapcaster Mage(though its still pretty bad. You effectively discarding a card to counter Snapcaster Mage's triggered ability). If the Omniscience version of the Show and Tell/Reanimator deck picks up popularity I expect Surgical Extraction to fade in popularity as it is much worse against that deck.

Basically Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are usable when people are casting things either out of their graveyard without them travelling through the stack first, or casting things that target something in the graveyard, such as reanimation strategies.

[Lord Seth]

Because one of the top decks in Legacy involves reanimating Gristlebrand, and Surgical Extraction is a free, colorless answer to that.

Surgical Extraction was used in Top 8 decks in Legacy before Griselbrand was ever printed.

Basically Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are usable when people are casting things either out of their graveyard without them travelling through the stack first, or casting things that target something in the graveyard, such as reanimation strategies.

So in other words...your claim that they were bad cards people shouldn't play with was incorrect.

[Zavoniki]

Surgical Extraction was used in Top 8 decks in Legacy before Griselbrand was ever printed.

Really? I don't remember that being true...

And yes they are still bad cards. Coffin Purge and Purify the Grave are better for the job of countering those cards. People have top 8ed with bad cards in their decks before. The most recent Pro Tour involved someone top 8ing with Cathedral Sanctifiers main deck.

My issue with both Extirpate and Surgical Extraction is that they don't do anything. By the time they hit something its because either a: Your opponent already cast it or b: you caused them to discard it. If they've cast it already, your Surgical Extraction would be better off as literally any other card in your deck(yes even Land) so that you can at least advance your board state, prevent them from advancing theirs, or continue to disrupt their hand. If you caused them to discard it then they would be better off to continue to advance your game plan or disrupt theirs(again using literally any other card in your deck) than attack something you've already dealt with. Basically your down a card in the Card Advantage War for no gain. If you use it on a flashback spell you're only down half a card, but you are still down. The only time you can break even is if you use it in response to an entire card(Reanimate and the like, not something like Snapcaster Mage) targeting a single card in a graveyard(so this doesn't deal with Exhume, Past in Flames, etc...). The chances of that happening are unbelievable small. The only reason decks use it is when they have no other cheap(1 CMC or less) instant speed graveyard hate available. People however seem to love using these cards. They like going through other people's decks and removing cards from them. So they are put in a lot of decks, especially as a sideboard card. So yes they do show up in top 8 decks, but that's probably more a factor of them being put in to so many sideboards rather than them(well really just Surgical Extraction) actually being the correct tool for the job.

[Lord Seth]

Really? I don't remember that being true...

Perhaps you should refresh your memory then. Starting with the top 8 at the Grand Prix Indianapolis (5 out of 8 decks playing Surgical Extraction).

And yes they are still bad cards.

No they are not. Surgical Extraction is excellent, and Extirpate, while weaker (but okay in Pox), is not worthy of the moniker of being "bad."

Coffin Purge and Purify the Grave are better for the job of countering those cards.

Except for the part where...
1) They don't cost 0 mana.
2) They're restricted to their colors.
3) They don't get rid of the other copies of the cards.

Can you explain to me how Coffin Purge and Purify the Grave are better against Dredge than Surgical Extraction is? Because I'm all ears on that.

People have top 8ed with bad cards in their decks before. The most recent Pro Tour involved someone top 8ing with Cathedral Sanctifiers main deck.

And your point is...?

I mean that seriously. I looked at the deck, and the Cathedral Sanctifiers look fine in it. What card do you think they should have put there instead?

So yes they do show up in top 8 decks, but that's probably more a factor of them being put in to so many sideboards rather than them(well really just Surgical Extraction) actually being the correct tool for the job.

No, it's because Surgical Extraction is a great card for reasons I've explained that you keep ignoring.

[Fable Wright]

Except for the part where...
1) They don't cost 0 mana.
2) They're restricted to their colors.
3) They don't get rid of the other copies of the cards.

Can you explain to me how Coffin Purge and Purify the Grave are better against Dredge than Surgical Extraction is? Because I'm all ears on that.

Chiming in as a Dredge player: Coffin Purge is better when you Entomb it when you have a Blazing Archon on the field and your opponent intends to kill it/you with their reanimation target. In just about any other situation, Surgical Extraction hits harder. Getting rid of all the bridges? Suddenly, comboing out with FKZ became a lot harder, and no more grinding value from Ichorids. Extracting Ichorids? Most of the damage from the deck is gone now. Surgical Extract + Snapcaster the Extract on the aforementioned cards? The only win option left for your opponent is to dredge hard, work at getting 3 creatures in play, and then trying to Dread Return a fatty with no protection, and basically just praying that you don't have a Counter/Swords/Karakas (for Iona) in hand. And all this happens while your deck functions completely as normal, more or less like if you were playing against a really subpar Reanimation deck with a few Chump blockers. Surgical can't stop dredge, per say, but it can slow the deck down quite a lot and it ruins my day far more often than a Coffin Purge.

Oh, and a T1 Thoughtseize, Extract one dredger I have two copies of in hand and Extract it, followed by a later Toughtseize+Snapcaster to eliminate all the other dredgers in my deck has ruined my night before. It's not really something to base an argument on, but when dredge decks stutter (Happens more often than you think) and you hit their only Dredger in the yard with an Extraction, they're going to have a hell of a time trying to dig for the 7 dredgers in their deck when they don't have their engine going. For 2 life and a card, it's a really solid investment. Again, it's no replacement for a Relic or Crypt, but it's a pain to deal with and really slows the deck out to raceable speeds.

[tgva8889]

Surgical Extraction is also quite fine in Standard. Countering Snapcaster Mage's ability and also eliminating all future castings of a specific utilitarian spell is not nothing and is, in fact, often worth the 2 life and a card you pay for it. The fact that you can easily flash it back with Snapcaster Mage gives you even more use out of it and can give you some real power even with just a single copy (which is what many Delver decks used to play if they played Surgical Extraction at all). It's not amazing, but it does what you want and it does it at no mana cost which is key.

With access to Snapcaster Mage, Surgical Extration and Extirpate are actually both way better than Coffin Purge. I think a lot of decks that choose to play these kinds of cards in their sideboards probably have access to Tiago, which gives them infinitely more value, or discard, which allows you to strip combo decks apart much, much faster than Memoricide would ever allow you to and therefore increases the value of these cheap effects.

The card isn't the best ever or possibly even the best at hitting graveyards, but it does have an effect that is meaningful, especially in games that can go long, and it is sometimes absolutely necessary to have access to it. There are a bunch of tiny bonuses you get from it, but they can all made it relevant.

[breakdownjason]

Hey guys, do you think green style removal (i.e. Prey Upon) is viable in a B/G Zombies? I've run mono-black the last few FNM's, but I'm trying to look at the deck post rotation, and thus far I haven't seen much to replace Doom Blade or Go for the Throat (Abrupt Decay is awesome, but it lacks the late game versatility of the current creature removal) and I was considering running 2 Prey Upons and 2 Ulvenwald Trackers along with dropping another Phyrexian Obliterator in that I could Pod into. Thoughts?

Also on the Surgical Extraction discussion, it also works extremely well against zombies to hit Gravecrawlers and Geralf's Messengers (plus Blood Artists) and Green Aggro to hit Strangleroot Geists.

[Sith_Happens]

Hey guys, do you think green style removal (i.e. Prey Upon) is viable in a B/G Zombies? I've run mono-black the last few FNM's, but I'm trying to look at the deck post rotation, and thus far I haven't seen much to replace Doom Blade or Go for the Throat (Abrupt Decay is awesome, but it lacks the late game versatility of the current creature removal) and I was considering running 2 Prey Upons and 2 Ulvenwald Trackers along with dropping another Phyrexian Obliterator in that I could Pod into. Thoughts?

1. Cast Prey Upon.
2. Target your Geralf's Messenger.
3. ???
4. Profit.

[breakdownjason]

See, I was thinking (until rotation)...

1) Pod Messenger into Phyrexian Obliterator (opponent loses 2 to 6 life depending on amount of Blood Artists in play)
2) Cast Prey Upon targeting Phyrexian Obliterator and any large threat on the board. Opponent sacs entire board. I'm down an Obliterator. Opponent loses all board presence
3) ?? (Swing with zombies)
4) Profit.

Edit: This is all pre rotation of course. Post I'll likely target Messenger's as Lightning Bolts and 'Crawlers as Shocks that keep coming back.

[IthilanorStPete]

Hey guys, do you think green style removal (i.e. Prey Upon) is viable in a B/G Zombies? I've run mono-black the last few FNM's, but I'm trying to look at the deck post rotation, and thus far I haven't seen much to replace Doom Blade or Go for the Throat (Abrupt Decay is awesome, but it lacks the late game versatility of the current creature removal) and I was considering running 2 Prey Upons and 2 Ulvenwald Trackers along with dropping another Phyrexian Obliterator in that I could Pod into. Thoughts?

Also on the Surgical Extraction discussion, it also works extremely well against zombies to hit Gravecrawlers and Geralf's Messengers (plus Blood Artists) and Green Aggro to hit Strangleroot Geists.

I wouldn't worry about running the green removal quite yet - there's no doubt going to be black removal in RtR we just haven't seen yet.

[breakdownjason]

I wouldn't worry about running the green removal quite yet - there's no doubt going to be black removal in RtR we just haven't seen yet.

X

I don't doubt that, but will it be more Go for the Throat or more Murder? That one extra mana means a LOT to my curve. Double black doesn't matter with my proposed mana base at least though (14 Swamp, 4 Overgrown Tomb, 4 Woodland Cemetery) so I can still run my Messenger as a turn 3 drop.

[Ninjaman]

X

I don't doubt that, but will it be more Go for the Throat or more Murder? That one extra mana means a LOT to my curve. Double black doesn't matter with my proposed mana base at least though (14 Swamp, 4 Overgrown Tomb, 4 Woodland Cemetery) so I can still run my Messenger as a turn 3 drop.

You seem to be missing 4 caverns in there

[Zombimode]

A question regarding rewinding the game due to an illegal action in a tournament:

If someone tries an illegal action the game state is restored to the point immediately before the illegal action occurred. Does this include mana abilities?

Following example:
Player A has one card in hand (Swords to Plowshares), and one untapped Plains.
Player B has a Knight of Infamy (prot. from White) on the 'field.

Player A taps the Plains for {W} and tries to play Swords on the Knight.
Player B is like "dude, ma dude has protecshion from yellow, you can't not do that".

Game state is restored, but to what?
Possibility 1:
Player A has Swords in hand, Plains untapped.

Possibility 2:
Player A has Swords in hand, tapped Plains, {W} in pool.


Which is it?

[Fable Wright]

You seem to be missing 4 caverns in there

He doesn't actually have to run Cavern. If he wants to run Green removal, or activate abilities of creatures that require Green, or maybe doesn't particularly want to spend $120 to protect against a threat that will have faded by that time, he doesn't have to run Cavern. Cavern still taps for colorless if you aren't casting a creature, and having actual Green mana when you need it can be big.

I'm not saying that Cavern isn't an option or that it's bad, just that you don't need to automatically run a playset of them in any deck you make.