Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[Penguinizer]

Probably not. The main reason it saw use was because it was a re-animation effect you could find with Survival of the Fittest. Now that that's no longer available in the format there aren't really that many reasons to play it. There's also the issue that it's white. Most re-animator or otherwise grave based builds are UB or some variant of such. They have more efficient re-animation from Reanimate and Animate Dead. Retainers doesn't really have any benefits over those.

[Fable Wright]

Probably not. The main reason it saw use was because it was a re-animation effect you could find with Survival of the Fittest. Now that that's no longer available in the format there aren't really that many reasons to play it. There's also the issue that it's white. Most re-animator or otherwise grave based builds are UB or some variant of such. They have more efficient re-animation from Reanimate and Animate Dead. Retainers doesn't really have any benefits over those.

I remember seeing a Maverick list a while back running Fauna Shamans, 1 Elesh Norn, and 1 Loyal Retainers as a Reanimator Package. It seemed like a good inclusion at the time, and if there were more on the market, people would be significantly more likely to try out the package, rather than investing $120+ in a combo that might not pan out as well as expected.

[Bucky]

I've considered those here, but the main issue is I feel like I need more 2 drop creatures in the curve, and I can't think of any good ones aside from Ash Zealot, and that's RR, which I will almost never have on turn two.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on this, but Thrill-Kill Assassin is a moderatly nasty uncommon black 2-drop.

[Foeofthelance]

I've been running a RG Dragon ramp deck at FNM, and it's been performing fairly consistently. I've had a few close games, but as long as I don't flood out on lands it tends to win. The biggest problem it runs into are token decks. I can keep the swarms down to manageable sizes, but between Intangible Virtue, Sorin, and other anthem effects they just pile the damage on too quickly for me to keep up. I've had some success with Bramblecrush and Acidic Slime, either by going after the enchantments or the lands, but it hasn't been enough. Here's the list, so any suggestions would be helpful.

23 Lands
10 Mountains
9 Forests
4 Rootbound Crag

20 Creatures
4x Arbor Elf
4x Somberwald Sage
4x Thundermaw Hellkite
4x Balefire Dragon
4x Utvara Hellkite

17 Spells
4x Farkseek
3x Wildhunger
4x Mizzium Mortars
3x Searing Spear
3x Pillar of Flame

[Bucky]

I've been running a RG Dragon ramp deck at FNM, and it's been performing fairly consistently. I've had a few close games, but as long as I don't flood out on lands it tends to win. The biggest problem it runs into are token decks. I can keep the swarms down to manageable sizes, but between Intangible Virtue, Sorin, and other anthem effects they just pile the damage on too quickly for me to keep up. I've had some success with Bramblecrush and Acidic Slime, either by going after the enchantments or the lands, but it hasn't been enough. Here's the list, so any suggestions would be helpful.

Spoiler

Show

23 Lands
10 Mountains
9 Forests
4 Rootbound Crag

20 Creatures
4x Arbor Elf
4x Somberwald Sage
4x Thundermaw Hellkite
4x Balefire Dragon
4x Utvara Hellkite

17 Spells
4x Farkseek
3x Wildhunger
4x Mizzium Mortars
3x Searing Spear
3x Pillar of Flame

First of all, I think you want to swap out a couple of Mountains for Forests, because Farseek doesn't fetch Forests the swap makes turn-1 Elf more likely. Also, I don't see what Wild Hunger is for... pushing Balefire Dragon damage through? Wouldn't Kessig Wolf Run as extra land be better, since it helps to deploy the dragons in the first place?

The correct answer to tokens depends on whether you're dealing with small tokens (BW spirits) or large tokens (GW populate). In the latter case, a fast fat ground guy (e.g. Thragtusk, Vorapede) will slow them down by a couple of turns, long enough to get a dragon out. In the former case, killing the anthems backed by Reach creatures or cheaper sweepers is likely to be more effective.

[tgva8889]

Has Wild Hunger been effective for you? Also, is Somberwald Sage the best choice? I'm more curious for your thoughts than questioning their inclusion. I would suggest some number of Cavern of Souls if you have access to them since why not if you're playing lots of Dragons.

What kinds of tokens are the biggest problems? Daybreak Ranger is not too bad against small fliers like Spirit tokens, though it won't win a fight by itself. Silklash Spider, however, crushes an air army and is a great choice against Spirit tokens. Blastphemous Act is a good choice. Due to its mana reduction, you can use it to wipe the board for a miniscule mana cost, then play a large Dragon afterwards with your excess mana. Obviously Bonfire of the Damned is effective, though I can understand not having the funds for it.

If what you need to do is destroy the anthem effects, I suggest Naturalize. It is the cheapest option you have that does exactly what you want. Mana is a big deal, especially when it comes to being aggressively beat down by tokens. Naturalize on turn 2 on an anthem might save you a lot more damage than Bramblecrush or Acidic Slime on turn 3 or 4.

[Foeofthelance]

First of all, I think you want to swap out a couple of Mountains for Forests, because Farseek doesn't fetch Forests the swap makes turn-1 Elf more likely. Also, I don't see what Wild Hunger is for... pushing Balefire Dragon damage through? Wouldn't Kessig Wolf Run as extra land be better, since it helps to deploy the dragons in the first place?

The correct answer to tokens depends on whether you're dealing with small tokens (BW spirits) or large tokens (GW populate). In the latter case, a fast fat ground guy (e.g. Thragtusk, Vorapede) will slow them down by a couple of turns, long enough to get a dragon out. In the former case, killing the anthems backed by Reach creatures or cheaper sweepers is likely to be more effective.

The bigger problem is BW and Esper spirit decks. The Populate decks go down to hard removal on the token in the early game, and by late game they're either buried under Utvara tokens or have been wiped multiple times by Balefire. BW and Esper tokens not only play around in my airspace, but they're generally spamming multiple copies of Lingering Souls and Midnight Haunting, often forcing the choice between ramp and damage.

As far as the lands go, yeah, I can swap some of the Wild Hungers for Wolf Runs. They were there to either push damage through with the Elfs and Sages, or to push Balefire through. In regards to the Mountains though, I actually had to cut the number of forests; I was often sitting on too much green. And I don't need to cast Farseek for Forests, as if I can cast Farseek and I can cast an Elf or Sage already. 13 green sources has proven plenty.

Has Wild Hunger been effective for you? Also, is Somberwald Sage the best choice? I'm more curious for your thoughts than questioning their inclusion. I would suggest some number of Cavern of Souls if you have access to them since why not if you're playing lots of Dragons.

Both have, actually. Wild Hunger has let me close out games over blockers that otherwise would have won it for my opponent. Not just on Balefire, but by occasionally sending one of the other dragons over the top, or occasionally saving an Elf or Sage from a Tragic Slip the turn before my guys hit. As for the Sage, yeah, she's proven invaluable. Balefire and Utvara are 7 and 8 mana respectively. With normal ramp, I'm seeing them on turns 5-7. With Sage, I can reliably cast them on turns 3 and 4, respectively. At least locally, that puts me inside the Thragtusk curve.

[Fable Wright]

I've been running a RG Dragon ramp deck at FNM, and it's been performing fairly consistently. I've had a few close games, but as long as I don't flood out on lands it tends to win. The biggest problem it runs into are token decks. I can keep the swarms down to manageable sizes, but between Intangible Virtue, Sorin, and other anthem effects they just pile the damage on too quickly for me to keep up. I've had some success with Bramblecrush and Acidic Slime, either by going after the enchantments or the lands, but it hasn't been enough. Here's the list, so any suggestions would be helpful.

Spoiler

Show

23 Lands
10 Mountains
9 Forests
4 Rootbound Crag

20 Creatures
4x Arbor Elf
4x Somberwald Sage
4x Thundermaw Hellkite
4x Balefire Dragon
4x Utvara Hellkite

17 Spells
4x Farkseek
3x Wildhunger
4x Mizzium Mortars
3x Searing Spear
3x Pillar of Flame

Blasphemous Act, though no one plays it, might work out for you, although it does blow up your Sages and Arbor Elves.

In the early game, Electrickery might help before the Anthem effects start coming down, so that might be an option. I would recommend Street Spasm, except most of the problem cards (Lingering Souls/Midnight Haunting, Angel of Jubilation) fly...

[Foeofthelance]

Oooh, I forgot about Electrickery. That should definitely make it into the sideboard. And I think I have a couple copies of Blasphemous I can use.

[Squark]

Getting ready to pounce on stomping grounds when you can is kind of obvious, but worth mentioning. Also, I'm not sure you need 12 dragons; Perhaps cutting it down a few?

[Foeofthelance]

Getting ready to pounce on stomping grounds when you can is kind of obvious, but worth mentioning. Also, I'm not sure you need 12 dragons; Perhaps cutting it down a few?

Not particularly. Anything I cut them for would just be another large, stompy creature. Its not going to be running Snapcaster any time soon, I'd have to bleed into white to run Restoration Angel, which just leaves Thragtusk and Zealots. Unfortunately, without any way to blink or recur them, the Thragtusk would just be losing the race to theirs, while Zealots loses value if my opponent doesn't have anything worth stealing. I'd rather try to beat them before that point.

[Bucky]

In regards to the Mountains though, I actually had to cut the number of forests; I was often sitting on too much green. And I don't need to cast Farseek for Forests, as if I can cast Farseek and I can cast an Elf or Sage already. 13 green sources has proven plenty.

The critical point I'm worried about is being able to use Arbor Elf on turn 2. Rootbound Crag doesn't count there.

[tgva8889]

Silklash Spider is very good against swarms of flying tokens.

[Lord Seth]

I've been running a RG Dragon ramp deck at FNM, and it's been performing fairly consistently. I've had a few close games, but as long as I don't flood out on lands it tends to win. The biggest problem it runs into are token decks. I can keep the swarms down to manageable sizes, but between Intangible Virtue, Sorin, and other anthem effects they just pile the damage on too quickly for me to keep up. I've had some success with Bramblecrush and Acidic Slime, either by going after the enchantments or the lands, but it hasn't been enough. Here's the list, so any suggestions would be helpful.

23 Lands
10 Mountains
9 Forests
4 Rootbound Crag

20 Creatures
4x Arbor Elf
4x Somberwald Sage
4x Thundermaw Hellkite
4x Balefire Dragon
4x Utvara Hellkite

17 Spells
4x Farkseek
3x Wildhunger
4x Mizzium Mortars
3x Searing Spear
3x Pillar of Flame

Bonfire seems like it'd be pretty strong against token decks.

[Foeofthelance]

The critical point I'm worried about is being able to use Arbor Elf on turn 2. Rootbound Crag doesn't count there.

Yeah, the problem I was running into was that I was often coming up with too many forests and not enough mountains. The dragons didn't care too much about that, since they were coming in off the Sages, but Mizzium Mortars did. The first few games I played with the deck I would often need to overload it but would often have the wrong balance of lands. It came down to the choice between guaranteeing the elves or guaranteeing Mortars and the Mortars won.

So, the cards I currently have at this point are:

Silk Lash Spider
Electrickery
Naturalize
Blasphemous Act
Bonfire

Unfortunately I need to nix the Bonfire; Christmas season starts soon, and that is too much money for my budget.

[Togath]

I'm a bit new to mtg(only started four days ago) and had been wondering; How viable are single colour decks?, And is red/black a viable multi colour deck?(in the booster I've gotten so far, I've managed to pull two cards[both with the same little icon in the text area], one a black creature and the other a black/red one). Also, is there support for a black/green deck outside of the golgari archetype?

[Squark]

Single Color Decks: Depends. Currently, with Ravnica in full force, there's not much insentive to stay in a single color when it's so easy to add a second, but going mono-colored is still much easier on the wallet
Red Black: REasonably competitive. Exactly how much so, is up for debate.
Golgari support: Well, there's of course the original ravnica block, and Eventide. And other multi-color blocks have usually had some BG support.


(A note on color abreviation; As you know, the five colors of Magic are White, Blue, Black, Red, and Green. Typically speaking, the first letter of each color is used as an abreviation, although since Blue shares B with black, and Black is the greedy color, Blue is abbrieviated as U, so the color wheel, abbreviated, is WUBRG)

[Bucky]

I'm a bit new to mtg(only started four days ago) and had been wondering; How viable are single colour decks?, And is red/black a viable multi colour deck?(in the booster I've gotten so far, I've managed to pull two cards[both with the same little icon in the text area], one a black creature and the other a black/red one). Also, is there support for a black/green deck outside of the golgari archetype?

First off, 'viable' depends on your environment. A deck that's viable but not overpowered between a few friends with small collections will not be viable against pro deckbuilders with access to whatever cards they want.

1) Single color decks are mostly viable in environments without many lands around that make multiple colors. The exception is mono-red, which beats up inefficient and unprepared decks even when there is good fixing available.

2)Red-black is a deck right now in Standard. It's in the same category of 'brutalizing unprepared opponents' as mono-red, but is somewhat better at it and involves more expensive cards.

3)Green-black in Standard right now is basically Zombies with Rancor. It has very little to do with the Golgari guild. However, players have been describing green-black decks as 'Golgari' ever since the original Ravnica.

[tgva8889]

...And by the same token, RW as Boros, GWU as Bant, etc. etc. All the names for various color combinations that exist have been in use since the group that was coded said colors premiered in a set. Those names have been adapted to simply name the color combination itself, even if the decks they describe are intrinsically different. As an example, R/B as a color combination is commonly referred to as Rakdos, even though there are many different kinds of decks within that color combination.

[Fable Wright]

I'm a bit new to mtg(only started four days ago) and had been wondering; How viable are single colour decks?, And is red/black a viable multi colour deck?(in the booster I've gotten so far, I've managed to pull two cards[both with the same little icon in the text area], one a black creature and the other a black/red one). Also, is there support for a black/green deck outside of the golgari archetype?

It depends mostly on the format you play in.

Having no presumptions on how much you know about the game right now, here's how formats in Magic: the Gathering work.

There's Standard. This is the format that's easiest to access for most people, and it consists of the last 2 blocks of cards and the latest Core set. Currently, this comprises of Innistrad block (with the expansions Innistrad, Dark Ascension, and Avacyn Restored), M13 (Magic 2013, the latest core set), and Return to Ravnica (Currently only Return to Ravnica, and the next two sets to come out; the next one is called Gatecrash and comes out around February). Standard Tournaments only allow cards from these 3 blocks in them.

There's Legacy. This is the most expensive format to get into, and correspondingly the hardest to access. It allows almost all cards ever printed to be played, save for a banned list. This is mostly going to be ignored.

There's Modern. This is the third major format, and it's halfway between Standard and Legacy. It allows every card from a set called 8th edition, and all the cards from sets released thereafter, save for a banned list.

For the scope of this discussion, I'm going to assume that your objective is to make a 1-on-1 Standard deck that is reasonably competitive.

One thing that you have to understand right now is that we're currently in the middle of a multicolored block. Return to Ravnica is a block that focuses heavily on 2-color pairs, called Guilds. In the Return to Ravnica expansion, there are 5 guilds: Azorius, which is U/W, Selesnya, which is W/G, Golgari, which is G/B, Rakdos, which is B/R, and Izzet, which is U/R. The watermark on both the cards you opened was the Rakdos watermark; each of the guilds has one on their cards. These cards are all always either in the color combination of the guild, or have the guild's special mechanic on it (Detain, Populate, Scavenge, Unleash, and Overload, respectively).

Normally, you have to understand, Single-Color decks are quite viable. Most cards are monocolored, and cards from individual colors tend to work together well. However, in Return to Ravnica, being a multicolor block, doing so is a bit harder, as there are a ton of powerful multicolor cards to use. Currently, the only monocolored deck that seems viable in the tournament scene would be Mono-Black, but that deck would be expensive to build, as it would be a control deck that relies on some relatively expensive cards. However, Black/Red on the other hand, is among the cheapest decks to build.

Black/Red decks tend to be highly aggressive decks, intent on playing cheap creatures rapidly to push damage through. These decks tend to be cheap, as they rely on Common and Uncommon creatures to do so. For example, in Standard right now, there are 2 different 1 mana 2/2 creatures you can run in Rakdos colors (Diregraf Ghoul and Rakdos Cackler); given that you can run 4 of each in a 60 color deck, you have a 63.3% chance to have one in your opening hand. And getting a turn 1 2/2 is, frankly, quite good in just about any format. Given that you start at 20 life and most opponents won't be able to play a blocker on turn 1 and maybe not on turn 2, the creatures can push through a lot of damage on their own. Add in a few more aggressively costed creatures, and you can force through a lot of damage in the early game. Then, after your opponent stabilizes (aka, gets sufficient defenses to stop taking damage), you force through direct damage with cards such as Brimstone Volley and Searing Spear, either killing them outright, killing their blockers to let through the last points of damage, or getting their life total low enough that an alpha strike (swinging in with all your creatures; normally, you only do this if you're going for the finishing blow, as you leave yourself wide open for counterattack. Not usually a problem for Rakdos decks, but I digress) will kill them off.

If you want a sample dirt-cheap deck that might do decently that has plenty of room to upgrade, try a decklist like this:

Spoiler

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4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Rix Maadi Guildmage
4x Rakdos Shred-Freak
4x Gore-House Chainwalker
4x Brimstone Volley
4x Searing Spear
4x Tragic Slip
4x Hellhole Flailer
2x Bloodfray Giant
4x Dragonskull Summit
2x Evolving Wilds
8x Mountain
8x Swamp

They creatures are cheap, they punch through large amounts of damage, and you have sufficient burn to kill blockers that would give you problems and the person hiding behind them. Over time, the deck is easy to modify- add in the more expensive Blood Crypts into the mana base, tweak the amount of burn you have, add in bigger/better beaters, and so on. The individual cards are under a dollar apiece, aside from the Dragonskull Summits, which are closer to $4.

As for B/G decks... Golgari is the catch-all term for B/G decks. One of magic's many shorthands for color combinations- UW is Azorius, WG Selesnya, GB is Golgari, BR is Rakdos, UR is Izzet, RG is Gruul, UG is Simic, UB is Dimir, BW is Orzhov, WR is Boros, GWU is Bant, GWR is Naya, GRB is Jund, UBR is Grixis, UBW is Esper, BUG is BUG, RUG is RUG, and BWG is Junk (I don't know how it got the name, but it stuck. Junk decks can actually be quite good, though). I assume you mean a Golgari deck that isn't Golgari Zombies. And I have to say, Zombies is one of the best decks in the meta right now, so a competitive non-Zombie Golgari deck is unlikely. Outside of Standard, though, there are tons of non-zombie ways to play G/B.

Hope this answers all your questions. Also, a handy resource for understanding the game a bit better.

[Togath]

Thank you for the help with these, I was really clueless about how to build decks and that sort of thing. I think I'll probably aim for a B/R deck, as they look fun, I may also try a golgari zombie deck(I think the starter deck set thingy I got has a bunch of cards for that type of deck), since I already have a few cards for it, so it would be an easy one to start up(I think)

[Fable Wright]

Thank you for the help with these, I was really clueless about how to build decks and that sort of thing. I think I'll probably aim for a B/R deck, as they look fun, I may also try a golgari zombie deck(I think the starter deck set thingy I got has a bunch of cards for that type of deck), since I already have a few cards for it, so it would be an easy one to start up(I think)

I wish to point out that the Golgari Growth precon deck (which is likely the one you got; it's about $15) has exactly 3 cards that would help in a Zombie deck. One thing to note about Golgari Zombie decks is that they're expensive. They tend to run 4 Lotleth Trolls, 4 Gravecrawlers, and 4 Geralf's Messengers (going for $9, $12, and $11 apiece, respectively) to form the core of the deck, and the mana base tends to require multiple Overgrown Tombs ($16 apiece) to get reliable color fixing. All in all... a rather expensive deck to work with at competetive levels.

One thing that slipped my mind earlier is that Wizards has made a series of decks designed for competitive players that don't have many cards yet. They're called Event Decks, and they're preconstructed decks that use good cards that work well with each other. They even have one this set for Rakdos, which includes some cards I wouldn't have thought of including before that are actually pretty good, and it has many of the commons and uncommons that you would want in the deck, such as Rakdos Cackler, Brimstone Volley, and a few solid Rares. It comes premade as a 60 card deck with a 15 card sideboard, which you could use to enter a (casual) Standard Tournament at a local game store and possibly do well in.

[Togath]

Ah. I'll probably aim for building up a R/B deck then. I may also look into the event decks(how much do those usually cost?).

[Fable Wright]

Ah. I'll probably aim for building up a R/B deck then. I may also look into the event decks(how much do those usually cost?).

Generally $25 or so. If they have really valuable cards in them, they can go for $30 or more, but the Rakdos one is petty universally sold at $25.

[Mystic Muse]

What does one do to stop oneself from wanting to play at least half a dozen-a dozen different commander decks, especially when one already has two or three perfectly good ones?*


*I freaking love my Elesh Norn commander deck. Love it, love it, love it. Just needs a few edits when I have the time before going to play commander at a local place on the 13th.

[Lord Seth]

There's Legacy. This is the most expensive format to get into, and correspondingly the hardest to access. It allows almost all cards ever printed to be played, save for a banned list. This is mostly going to be ignored.

Wait, what? Legacy the most expensive format to get into? What about Vintage?

[Squark]

Vintage is, in some ways, a format people talk about, but very few people actually play.

[Fable Wright]

Wait, what? Legacy the most expensive format to get into? What about Vintage?

Vintage, like Extended and Commander, wasn't included due to not having enough tournaments in that format. I have seen more Commander tournaments (though I dislike the competitiveness that brings out in a fun format) than Vintage tournaments. It is the most expensive format to get into, if you take all of them into account. Legacy is the most expensive mainstream format.

What does one do to stop oneself from wanting to play at least half a dozen-a dozen different commander decks, especially when one already has two or three perfectly good ones?*


*I freaking love my Elesh Norn commander deck. Love it, love it, love it. Just needs a few edits when I have the time before going to play commander at a local place on the 13th.

You're going to want to play half a dozen commander decks no matter what. The key is to realize that you don't have the card pool to build all of them, and then you begin to slowly trade for cards that would support that deck. And then, when you have a critical mass of cards for the deck, you cave in and build it.

Alternatively, have 1 deckbox for your Commander deck, and enough sleeves for 1 commander deck. That might help curb the urge to play more decks than you can afford.

[Squark]

So... playing the last few weeks, I've found that I really, really, really need a solid answer to thragtusk. Does anyone have any suggestions for BR midrange-Control? At this point, I'm seriously contemplating running a slaughter games or two main board.

[Sith_Happens]

So... playing the last few weeks, I've found that I really, really, really need a solid answer to thragtusk. Does anyone have any suggestions for BR midrange-Control? At this point, I'm seriously contemplating running a slaughter games or two main board.

Depends. What precisely about Thragtusk are you looking for an answer to? Killing it shouldn't be a problem in your colors, it is a creature after all. Are people populating the token too fast, blinking the Thragtusk, or something else?