Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[Mindfreak]

Eh. I'd say that depending on the rare, that can be either good or bad.

Any who, my decks doing surprisingly well among guys who aren't exactly casual players(they go to states and...usually do quite good).
So good that I have my very own, beautiful Pillar of Flame promo.

And yeah, Mythics are 1 in 8 I do believe. I remember my first few packs...from the four packs in my M13 Deckbuilder's kit, I got 3 Mythics.
Most of which aren't that good, except for Entreat the Angels.
And that's going up and up right now...managed to get the final Temple Gardens and four Sunpetal Groves I needed off of it.

[Penguinizer]

Set in stone prices are rarely fitting. The problem is that price varies a lot. You have a lot of rares that are not really worth anything and uncommons worth more than most of the rares in the set.

[Togath]

Ah(I wonder if they happen to have given alternate prices for the really powerful uncommons/rares, or if they are also the static price, I'll check next time I'm there).
Also, how hard are booster drafts for someone new to the game?, The gaming shop holds them about 2-3 times per month and I was thinking of attending one(they were using a 3 booster method, so 20 card decks? Or would it be 20 plus 10 lands?)

[IthilanorStPete]

Ah(I wonder if they happen to have given alternate prices for the really powerful uncommons/rares, or if they are also the static price, I'll check next time I'm there).
Also, how hard are booster drafts for someone new to the game?, The gaming shop holds them about 2-3 times per month and I was thinking of attending one(they were using a 3 booster method, so 20 card decks? Or would it be 20 plus 10 lands?)

Draft (and Sealed) uses 40 card decks. The basic ratio to start with is 23 spells, 17 lands.

[Fable Wright]

Ah(I wonder if they happen to have given alternate prices for the really powerful uncommons/rares, or if they are also the static price, I'll check next time I'm there).
Also, how hard are booster drafts for someone new to the game?, The gaming shop holds them about 2-3 times per month and I was thinking of attending one(they were using a 3 booster method, so 20 card decks? Or would it be 20 plus 10 lands?)

Drafts are fairly intuitive, and you'll understand most of what goes on. Building the best draft deck, however, is something that many people try to master, and few can. The best advice I can give you going into one is to remember to grab a decent number of creatures, stay in 2 or 3 colors, and remember to get a good curve. (As in, grab a good number of 2 drops, slightly more 3 drops, slightly less 4 drops than 3 drops, and the number decreasing after that, forming a parabolic curve that tends to be the hallmark of a good draft deck.)

[Togath]

Drafts are fairly intuitive, and you'll understand most of what goes on. Building the best draft deck, however, is something that many people try to master, and few can. The best advice I can give you going into one is to remember to grab a decent number of creatures, stay in 2 or 3 colors, and remember to get a good curve. (As in, grab a good number of 2 drops, slightly more 3 drops, slightly less 4 drops than 3 drops, and the number decreasing after that, forming a parabolic curve that tends to be the hallmark of a good draft deck.)

I'll keep those bit in mind then

[Eldariel]

Drafts are IMHO the most fun way to play Magic.

Some quick draft tips if you're interested:

Spoiler

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• Large efficient creatures (in the 4-7 drop range), especially ones that match up well against other creatures, tend to rule the format. You call these "bombs". Good examples of dominant creatures from Return to Ravnica include Skymark Roc, Armada Wurm, Rakdos, Lord of Riots or Archon of the Triumvirate. All of them completely dominate the game if you get to play them and they are not removed.
• Removal spells are always at a premium and even bad ones should be rated fairly high (Ultimate Price is an example of a fairly bad removal spell that you still usually want in Return to Ravnica Draft). Being able to clear the way for attacks, surviving some evasion creature or destroying enemy bomb are all very useful abilities and removal spells tend to be fairly rare so pick them high. Temporary removal like Detain or Bounce (see e.g. Voidwielder) are likewise very, very powerful.
• Planewalkers are always at least strong, and usually amazing.
• You want to pay attention to your mana curve: you want a lot of 2-3 drops (1-drops are rarely worth playing; basically, unless a 1-drop has 2 power or a strong ability you probably shouldn't play it as they just get outmuscled by 2-3 drops) to keep you alive in the early game or to pressure the enemy early, and then some cards to close the game out.
• If you pick some strong expensive card, you can build around it and draft a defensive deck that just tries to stay alive until landing the bomb and winning the game with it (card draw and removal are both really useful in a deck like this). Alternatively, you can try to draft a fast, aggressive deck with a lot of cheap creatures and some finisher spells (Teleportal is an amazing example from Return to Ravnica of a great finisher) where you try to kill your opponent before they can play their own bombs.
• Note that creatures with evasion (Flying or similar) are often very useful to get by a "ground stall" where both sides have enough good blockers that attacking is a losing proposition.
• The key to succeeding in a draft is "reading" the draft; that is, pick the best cards, yes, but pay attention what the persons next to you are passing you. Basically, pack 1 you pass to left, pack 2 you pass to right, pack 3 you pass to left. So player to your right passes to you two out of the three packs. If he's not passing a lot of good blue or white cards, chances are he's drafting blue/white himself. In this case you optimally want to draft another color combination since he passes cards to you two out of the three packs and if he's in the same colors as you he'll take the best card in your colors out of each of those packs leaving you with much worse cards.
• Similarly, pay attention to what you pass to the person to your left in pack 1. Chances are he'll pick the color with the most good cards in the packs you pass. Next pack he'll pass to you so optimally you want to pass cards that put him to a different color combination than you. This way he takes the best card from other colors and you get the best cards in your colors.

[Togath]

How does the passing the packs around thing work?

[Bucky]

How does the passing the packs around thing work?

The simplest way to explain is zone drafting. You're passing right for this example but it works the same if you're passing left.

1)If there is no pack in your hand and a pack between you and the person person to your left, pick up the pack to your left.
2)If there is a pack in your hand and no pack between you and the person to your right, you may take a card from the pack in your hand and then put down the pack on your right.
3)If there is a pack in your hand and a pack on the table to your right, review the pack in your hand but don't make your pick yet.
4)If there is no pack in hand and no pack on the table to your left, wait for the person on your left to put down their pack.
5)If all the opened packs are empty and there are sealed packs left, everyone opens a sealed pack, picks it up, and starts over from (2) except with "right" and "left" reversed.

EDIT: Oh, and you might want to read all the commons in the set before the draft; it saves a lot of time during the draft.

[Togath]

Ah, so you sort of trade the cards around, neat. I'll definatly try one sometime then(even if I don't do well in the actual matches, it could be useful for building up a deck)

[Eldariel]

I actually try to never open boosters without drafting them nowadays. Such a terrible waste. Then again, I almost solely buy the cards I need as opposed to buying boosters but if I win something small it's still in Boosters so I get to do it a decent amount.

Really, to be able to draft all you need is one other player (well, you can of course solitaire draft and play against yourself or Plague Rats or whatever too). Though a normal draft table has 8 people, there are other draft formats for lesser amounts and you can read about them in the Magic-wiki if you're interested.

[Togath]

Nearly gotten a W/U deck built(using the advice from here), so how does this arrangement of creatures sound for a (mid to low priced) deck?;
Azorius Arrester x4(obtained)
Hussar Patrol x4(obtained)
Lyev Skynight x4(need 2)
Knight of Glory x4(need 4)
Judge's Familiar x2(need 1
Either Skymark Roc x2(need 2)or Azorius Justiciar x2(need 1)
Angel of Serenity x1(obtained
Archon of the Triumvirate x1(obtained)
and New Prahv Guildmage(need 2) x2
((20 total))

I'm less sure of non-creature spells, but I think I have a decent set planned out;
Swift Justice x4
Inaction Injunction(since it both draws a card, and detains) x4
Paralyzing Grasp x4
Azorius Charm x2
Cancel x2
Martial Law x2
Rebuke x2
Purify the Grave x2
((20 total))

and the following lands(I do worry if I’m heavy on lands)
Transguild Promenade x4
Azorius Guildgate(since the better m10 lands are harder to get a hold of, a gate looks like good choice for now) x4
Plains x10
Island x6
((20 total))

would a few artifiacts be useful?(such as Cobbled Wings, Butcher's Cleaver, or Azorius Keyrune)

[Lord Seth]

Nearly gotten a W/U deck built(using the advice from here), so how does this arrangement of creatures sound for a (mid to low priced) deck?;
Azorius Arrester x4(obtained)
Hussar Patrol x4(obtained)
Lyev Skynight x4(need 2)
Knight of Glory x4(need 4)
Judge's Familiar x2(need 1
Either Skymark Roc x2(need 2)or Azorius Justiciar x2(need 1)
Angel of Serenity x1(obtained
Archon of the Triumvirate x1(obtained)
and New Prahv Guildmage(need 2) x2
((20 total))

You should really have some Elite Inquisitors and/or Precinct Captains, or at least some Fencing Aces. Lyev Skyknights are great also. War Falcon is worth considering because at worst it's a decent blocker and at best is a 2/1 flyer for one mana.

I'm less sure of non-creature spells, but I think I have a decent set planned out;
Swift Justice x4
Inaction Injunction(since it both draws a card, and detains) x4
Paralyzing Grasp x4
Azorius Charm x2
Cancel x2
Martial Law x2
Rebuke x2
Purify the Grave x2
((20 total))

Cancel is a strictly worse Dissipate, so run that instead if you want it. Purify the Grave is a sideboard card.

Though I'd personally recommend just ditching most of them so you can run Thalia. She's spectacular. If not, one (not ideal, but cheap) possibility would be to try to get rid of the enchantments in favor of Instants and Sorceries so you can maybe get Delver of Secrets to be okay. If you want to play with enchantments, try Spectral Flight. While you're missing its best target--Geist of Saint Traft--it's still a good way to amp up the threat level by boosting something's power and giving it evasion.

and the following lands(I do worry if I’m heavy on lands)
Transguild Promenade x4
Azorius Guildgate(since the better m10 lands are harder to get a hold of, a gate looks like good choice for now) x4
Plains x10
Island x6
((20 total))

Glacial Fortress is a great card and you really should be running it. I can understand avoiding Hallowed Fountains for monetary reasons, but Glacial Fortresses have been printed in three core sets and aren't that hard/expensive to find. I think you should replace all the Transguild Promenades with Glacial Fortresses. The Azorius Guildgates should be run in place of Hallowed Fountains, not in place of Glacial Fortresses.

[Lea Plath]

Bolded my suggestions:

Azorius Arrester x4(obtained)
Hussar Patrol x4(obtained) Can't really suggest for constructed.
Lyev Skynight x4(need 2)
Knight of Glory x4(need 4)
Judge's Familiar x2(need 1
Either Skymark Roc x2(need 2)or Azorius Justiciar x2(need 1) I would personally go Skymark Roc. Skymark's rock effect is useful in a format with zombies in it as it will remove +1/+1 counters from Lol troll etc
Angel of Serenity x1(obtained I don't this fits the mana curve for UW aggro
Archon of the Triumvirate x1(obtained) Another meh card that I can't really suggest
and New Prahv Guildmage(need 2) x2 Actually pretty decent for constructed
((20 total))

I'm less sure of non-creature spells, but I think I have a decent set planned out;
Swift Justice x4
Inaction Injunction(since it both draws a card, and detains) x4
Paralyzing Grasp x4 Not worth it
Azorius Charm x2
Cancel x2
Martial Law x2
Rebuke x2
Purify the Grave x2 A sideboard card
((20 total))

and the following lands(I do worry if I’m heavy on lands)
Transguild Promenade x4
Azorius Guildgate(since the better m10 lands are harder to get a hold of, a gate looks like good choice for now) x4
Plains x10
Island x6
((20 total))

would a few artifiacts be useful?(such as Cobbled Wings, Butcher's Cleaver, or Azorius Keyrune)

Butchers/Cobbled Wings ain't great. Keyrune is mildly useful and for lands, just balance it minus transguild promenade cause it sets you back a turn for mana.

Really, for UW aggro though, you want sumin like this:

4 War Falcon
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Knight of Glory
4 Silverblade Paladin
4 Lyev Skyknight
4 Riders of Gavony
4 Elite Inquisitor
4 Champion of the Parish
Instant [3]
3 Feeling of Dread
Enchantment [5]
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Spectral Flight
Land [22]
5 Island
13 Plains
4 Azorious Guildgate

[Mystic Muse]

Is reanimator a deck that can reasonably be effective, or are there just not enough good cards in standard anymore?

If it can be, what colors would you suggest making it?

[Lea Plath]

Reanimator is a good deck and there are at least 2 versions of it.

The most common is Junk reanimator (GWB) that runs Thragtusk, Centaur Healer, Farseek, Lingering, Salvage etc. So turn 1-3 you ramp and grisely salvage or healer to get a graveyard then you Unburial Rites out thragtusk or the like.

4C reanimator is similar but it runs GWBR for Faithless Looting, board clears etc so it has a better matchup versus aggro decks.

[Togath]

You should really have some Elite Inquisitors and/or Precinct Captains, or at least some Fencing Aces. Lyev Skyknights are great also. War Falcon is worth considering because at worst it's a decent blocker and at best is a 2/1 flyer for one mana.

Cancel is a strictly worse Dissipate, so run that instead if you want it. Purify the Grave is a sideboard card.

Though I'd personally recommend just ditching most of them so you can run Thalia. She's spectacular. If not, one (not ideal, but cheap) possibility would be to try to get rid of the enchantments in favor of Instants and Sorceries so you can maybe get Delver of Secrets to be okay. If you want to play with enchantments, try Spectral Flight. While you're missing its best target--Geist of Saint Traft--it's still a good way to amp up the threat level by boosting something's power and giving it evasion.

Glacial Fortress is a great card and you really should be running it. I can understand avoiding Hallowed Fountains for monetary reasons, but Glacial Fortresses have been printed in three core sets and aren't that hard/expensive to find. I think you should replace all the Transguild Promenades with Glacial Fortresses. The Azorius Guildgates should be run in place of Hallowed Fountains, not in place of Glacial Fortresses.

I think I'll aim for Delver of Secrets then. In addition to dissipate, what other white or blue instants/sorceries would be good/cheap?
War falcon sounds good, though I could get fencing aces if they would be better. I was definitely planning to aim for precinct captain eventually, since it's a very good card.
I'll also keep my eyes out for glacial fortress as well, if it's relatively common. And I'll go with Skymark Roc over Justiciar, since it looks more powerful.

[Lea Plath]

I disagree with Delver. In the current format, Delver isn't good.

Midrange decks are king at the moment, so Delver tempo builds just aren't as good as they were.

What you want to deal with midrange at the moment is control, so no room for Delver there, or aggro, and then you can play a lot better cards than Delver.

Also: Bird > Ace. Bird flies. Swings for 2. Blocks as a 2.

[LansXero]

Evolving wilds is still standard legal, it may set you behind a turn, but it lets you fix your mana.

If you wanna run UW Agro you should also consider the redundancy of loyal cathars / doomed travellers, the recycling from a moorland haunt, and of course Thalia.

[Litewarior]

On the topic of drafting, for RTR draft in particular, Pack Rat is king. If you can drop a Pack Rat on turn 2, and t goes unanswered which is highly likely, you'll most likely win the game.

This is an article talking solely about Pack Rat in RTR draft.

[Togath]

If you wanna run UW Agro you should also consider the redundancy of loyal cathars / doomed travellers.

does domed traveler have any advantages over loyal cathar(it can come back when defeated, but so can loyal cathar)?

On the topic of drafting, for RTR draft in particular, Pack Rat is king. If you can drop a Pack Rat on turn 2, and t goes unanswered which is highly likely, you'll most likely win the game.

This is an article talking solely about Pack Rat in RTR draft.

What am I missing about pack rat?, I don't understand why it would be useful, since it would take many turns to reach 4/4 or more, it seems lke a big risk.

[Lea Plath]

In draft or sealed, card advantage isn't such a big thing. You can discard at instant speed and use that to block. You can also discard scavange targets to buff rats, and eventually overwhelm them with rats.

[Eldariel]

What am I missing about pack rat?, I don't understand why it would be useful, since it would take many turns to reach 4/4 or more, it seems lke a big risk.

Your average card quality in a draft tends to be fairly low. Pack Rat converts every card you have into a relevant creature. Worst of all, it gets the more efficient the more you have in play; early they play good defense and once you've got a boardful of 3/3s or 4/4s it's hard for enemy to attack. And you can just keep going, growing until you can swing for the win.

Pack Rat means you can't get manaflooded; every excess land is an extra Pack Rat. It means you won't really be screwed if you have 3 or more mana. It means every 3-mana investment makes every previous investment more efficient to the point where you just overwhelm your opponent. Yeah, it does need a bit of time to get big but that's where the rest of your deck comes in.

Since every copy of Pack Rat can create more copies too, enemy has to deal with them early or deal with all of them or he can't stop them. The only real option is racing them and since they grow big fast, racing in the ground is very hard so evasive creatures are the only thing you really fear but they tend not to be strong enough to actually outrace your rats unless they have a huge headstart, you tend to beat those too. Pack Rat just dominates the game and creates its own minigame of "deal with me or lose", which is pretty strong for an innocent-looking 2-drop.

[Litewarior]

does domed traveler have any advantages over loyal cathar(it can come back when defeated, but so can loyal cathar)?



What am I missing about pack rat?, I don't understand why it would be useful, since it would take many turns to reach 4/4 or more, it seems lke a big risk.

Card quality is going to be much lower in limited than in constructed, that's the nature of the format. So discarding is not that relevant, and when a single 2 drop can take over the game very quickly, that is very strong.

Many removal spells are either narrow (Electrickery, Ultimate Price), or rare (Detention Sphere, Mizzium Mortars), so you're unlikely to encounter them. When a single card can give you 2 2/2s on turn 3, which becomes 3 3/3 the next turn, then 4 4/4s, and all you have to give up is your worst card in your hand, that's pretty good.

The format is also much slower than constructed except in the case of a nut draw by an aggro deck, so Pack Rat is given more time to make many huge rats.

If you have doubts, try building two draft decks, one with Pack Rat, one without, and see how games go when Pack Rat is played turn 2.

[tgva8889]

The worst part about Pack Rat is that once they make a second one, removal won't help you. The only things you can do are Mizzium Mortars, Street Spasm, and Supreme Verdict, and only 1 of those will always solve the problem; the others can easily be escaped.

It is possible to lose against Pack Rat, but in most games, leading with Pack Rat on turn 2 and spending your next 4 turns discarding cards you might have played instead of playing them to make Rats is actually a good way to win.

Advantages of Doomed Traveler over Loyal Cathar:
1) Makes a Flying creature.
2) Costs 1 less mana (is playable a turn earlier, gives you more things to do on certain points in your curve, etc.)
3) Avoids certain graveyard hate effects (specifically Deathrite Shaman and Grafdigger's Cage).

[Squark]

And if they kill the rat turn 2? Hey, they just got rid of a removal spell, and you still have your whole deck. It's not a strategy that needs to be built arround. A limited deck will almost always be made stronger by the addition of a pack rat or two.

[Lord Seth]

I disagree with Delver. In the current format, Delver isn't good.

Wrong. While it isn't as stupendous as it used to be, to say it "isn't good" is wrong. However, it is far superior in a UR or UWR deck than UW one. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement that if they were to replace some of the enchantments with more Instants/Sorceries, Delver of Secrets would be okay. Though I think the best option is just scrapping most of the noncreatures so you can bring in Thalia, though.

[tgva8889]

It isn't top-tier and isn't doing very well by comparison to most other Standard decks. To say it is "not good" isn't that much of an overstatement. There are simply better things that you could and should be doing, and those who tried to make Delver good have, thus far, failed to succeed against new technology.

[Lea Plath]

I just don't think the Delver archtype will ever rise again in standard, unless Simic, Dimir or Sinker give them some of the insane tech they need, like an index cantrip or something. I've looked into a UR burn deck using Delver, and the only thing that makes cards like Index bearable is Guttersnipe and even he is a bit hit and miss.

Something someone also suggested to me was Delver as sideboard tech but I don't see that working either. You side it in versus what? It dies to War Falcon in UW aggro. It just isn't aggro enough to beat down mid before they stabilize. In control and versus control, Jace makes a much quicker victory.

Delver is a good card. The Delver archtype in standard isn't so good. I think we might have to let this card go to Legacy.

[Togath]

I'd missed the exact copy bit of pack rat, definitely makes it a lot better(if you built a deck entirely around it, it could probably even be decent in constructed).
I think I'll go with the doomed traveler option for my W/U deck, since I'd rather not have to worry about anti-res effects.(also, how good would dramatic rescue be in a W/U aggro/light control deck? It seems like a pretty good W/U removal card)