General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[SiuiS]

The God-Machine Chronicles are here, everyone. Both the book and the free rules updated are available on Drive Thru RPG.

Huzzah!

I mihgt not sleep afterall!

[Mr.Bookworm]

Jesus, 104 pages? Gonna be up for a while.

Also, anyone have the full book? I'm sure it's good, but I am completely broke, and I'm wondering what's in it.

[Morty]

Some things that caught my attention:

• All weapons do Lethal damage now. However, some of the melee weapons do not add any damage to a successful roll and their only advantage is that you deal Lethal damage.
• The rules for resolving fights non-lethally have been expanded considerably.
• Angels and Spirits with Rank 4 or higher can raise the dead now, apparently, if they have the right Numen and spend 10 essence.

[Sith_Happens]

I like the rules update already, and I'm just browsing through the merits!

Anyone interested in running a mortals game? Something like an occult CSI?

Funny story, after watching most of season 1 of Supernatural a while back, one of the first things I thought was, "This would make a perfect WoD mortals game."

[SiuiS]

Some things that caught my attention:

• All weapons do Lethal damage now. However, some of the melee weapons do not add any damage to a successful roll and their only advantage is that you deal Lethal damage.
• The rules for resolving fights non-lethally have been expanded considerably.
• Angels and Spirits with Rank 4 or higher can raise the dead now, apparently, if they have the right Numen and spend 10 essence.

You missed a few

Weapons add successes, not dice, to your attacks.
Armor reduces incoming successes, not dice.

I am curious though, on the beats and conditions. Do you get a beat for resolving the condition as well as for engaging it? Ah well, rest time now. Full digestion on the morrow.

[Xallace]

I'm digging the expanded and altered merits section. Lots of stuff from supplements that should have been core anyway, some re-balanced core stuff, and a whole new take on fighting styles. Still not sure if I like the fighting styles, but they're growing on me.

[Leliel]

Also, the GM is an awesome antagonist, because it's gone back to the OL (Original Lovecraft).

It doesn't hate you. It doesn't even think you're an obstacle or an annoying bug. It just doesn't care about you.

And even with that, you can still score some minor victories against it, but even after you've thwarted the Occult Matrix, you aren't even worthwhile enough for it to bother killing you. It just packs up and moves the operation somewhere else.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Well, this is all very interesting.

Stream of consciousness below:

The only complaint I think I have is about the social combat system, in that you just can't use it for certain things. If you want to fast-talk your way past a security guard, pick up a cute stranger in a bar, or convince your wife that you have no idea how that blood got on your shirt, the system is completely lacking; it only covers social interaction over a relatively large time-scale unless the mark has a perfect impression of you or you're outright threatening them.

I mean, you can certainly just cover it with the usual dice rolls, but it's a little disappointing that you can't use the social system for something like that.

EDIT: It's also odd that you always have to open all of the target's Doors.

If the ex-student from the example wanted to borrow a book from the professor that the professor really didn't care that much for, beyond being a part of his library, she'd still have to open all of his Doors, just as she would if she wanted to borrow his most precious tome.

EDIT2: The timing table also doesn't really match up with reality in a way I can wrap my head around. If it takes three hours/rolls to get someone to do a favor for you, how do you represent that in game time? It seems like you would always have to represent it as either extremely long interactions or as multiple follow-ups, which is sort of silly.

[SiuiS]

Well, this is all very interesting.

The only complaint I think I have is about the social combat system, in that you just can't use it for certain things. If you want to fast-talk your way past a security guard, pick up a cute stranger in a bar, or convince your wife that you have no idea how that blood got on your shirt, the system is completely lacking; it only covers social interaction over a relatively large time-scale unless the mark has a perfect impression of you or you're outright threatening them.

I mean, you can certainly just cover it with the usual dice rolls, but it's a little disappointing that you can't use the social system for something like that.

EDIT: It's also odd that you always have to open all of the target's Doors.

If the ex-student from the example wanted to borrow a book from the professor that the professor really didn't care that much for, beyond being a part of his library, she'd still have to open all of his Doors, just as she would if she wanted to borrow his most precious tome.

Hmm. As I recall, this wasn't really an issue? I mean, blanket single instance is just one check. Why is that a problem?

Also, I recall there being mention in play test about what happens when you have to either burn through doors fast or just act now and take a penalty for remaining ones or something. Is that not covered by these rules?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Hmm. As I recall, this wasn't really an issue? I mean, blanket single instance is just one check. Why is that a problem?

Single, fairly quick interactions can be just as game-defining as persuasion that takes place over the course of a few weeks, and it seems like kind of an odd hole, when most of the player's interactions will probably take place in the span of a single scene.

Also, I recall there being mention in play test about what happens when you have to either burn through doors fast or just act now and take a penalty for remaining ones or something. Is that not covered by these rules?

Those rules are only for when you're performing violent actions. Threatening someone, breaking their legs, drugging them, etc., etc.

EDIT: I'm also a little wary that Athletics might become the One True Stat, but I'll wait to see how that goes in actual play.

[Morty]

The new social system struck me as inflexible as well, yes. It seems pretty well-made, but only really works for prolonged badgering of someone to get something. I suppose one might look at it like at the combat system - there's the long combat and there's the one-roll combat. But then, the one-roll combat system isn't there for quick fights but for less important ones.

As for Athletics, you can get a Merit to add your Weaponry or Brawl to your Defence instead... but I'm unsure about it all the same.

[MugaSofer]

My thoughts:

Virtues and Vices are almost exactly the same, but there's a lot more emphasis on creating your own versus using medieval Christian ones. And WP is slightly easier to get, but also you need it for more things. Seems fair.

Hurrah, balanced Merits! Languages that don't cost three dots! It's a miracle!

Hmm, Profession appears to be a Fighting Style for the mind, complete with brokenness. For one dot, you get two dots in another merit? That's not unbalanced at all.

Uh ... Supernatural Merits can break the Masquerade without any difficulty. Problem, scientists? They also run on WP, which is now more explicitly humanity's weakass Fuelstat.

Sucker-punching someone is now a Merit. So is slamming them up against a wall. The fifth dot in a fighting style allows you to deal a single point of Aggravated damage, and apparently Aggravated damage is the only way to permanently injure someone.

"Morality was great, but occasionally produced weird results. So we replaced it with ... nothing. You just decide if something would seem bad to our character or not. ARE YOU HAPPY NOW."

Huh, did that fluff just describe a reskinned Quashmallim getting a Demiurge to create a Promethean? Guess nobody's planning on releasing Promethian for the new-new WOD. Or if they do, everything'll be steampunk. That's ... pretty good, actually.

Combat is now less lethal and more goal-oriented. This is a Good Thing.

Not sure how I feel about all the altered combat mechanics - General armor blocks bullets, and Ballistic armor downgrades them to bashing? - but I need more time to think about these. Hopefully they've been playtested thoroughly and are now perfect.

Ghosts, Spirits and Quashmallim are now precisely, mathematically equal. So ghosts can use all those powerful Quashmallim-only Numina and Spirits can eat Angels for their delicious Essence. Seems legit.

... and that's as far as I've gotten. Seems like a mixed bag so far - a lot of great stuff, some incomprehensible stuff an a couple of things I'm going to immediately houserule. Reminds me of the move from the oWoD to the nWoD, from what I've heard.

[JMobius]

"Morality was great, but occasionally produced weird results. So we replaced it with ... nothing. You just decide if something would seem bad to our character or not. ARE YOU HAPPY NOW."

I quite prefer whether my character feels guilt over a failure to live up to his own moral paradigm, over going nuts due to something that shouldn't even phase him.

Ghosts, Spirits and Quashmallim are now precisely, mathematically equal. So ghosts can use all those powerful Quashmallim-only Numina and Spirits can eat Angels for their delicious Essence. Seems legit.

Ephemereal beings can't steal essence from other types. IIRC, I'm not sure they can even directly interact without certain Manifestations/Numina.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Ghosts, Spirits and Quashmallim are now precisely, mathematically equal. So ghosts can use all those powerful Quashmallim-only Numina and Spirits can eat Angels for their delicious Essence. Seems legit.

God Machine angels != qashmallim.

If an angel ran into a qashmallim, it would probably blue screen trying to figure out what the hell it was.

Also, Twilight beings of different types explicitly can't consume Essence from each other, and can't even interact without appropriate Numina.

[Selrahc]

Hurrah, balanced Merits! Languages that don't cost three dots! It's a miracle!

Languages have been 1 dot since the errata for the core book, back in... um... 2005?

[Mewtarthio]

I quite prefer whether my character feels guilt over a failure to live up to his own moral paradigm, over going nuts due to something that shouldn't even phase him.

I'd like it if it didn't burn through a permanent score. Right now, running into lots of breaking points leaves your character permanently weakened. It makes logical sense, but it does sort of discourage players from making relatively innocent characters. It'd probably be better if you didn't suffer permanent mental damage: That way, your characters' breaking points are more of a roleplaying thing (if you're a sensitive soul whose breaking points are easy to hit, you get lots of Beats; if you're a calloused veteran who's not fazed by anything, you don't have to suffer through the Conditions).

Basically, there should be a way to recover Integrity without spending Experience. Maybe take a page from how Mummy handled Memory: Whenever you fulfill an Aspiration, get a special Integrity Beat that can only be spent on Integrity (in addition to the normal Beat).

[SiuiS]

I like the rules update already, and I'm just browsing through the merits!

Anyone interested in running a mortals game? Something like an occult CSI?

I would be interested in playing one, but not running. I'm still adapting to both WoD and PbP. Trying to do both? No go.

The new social system struck me as inflexible as well, yes. It seems pretty well-made, but only really works for prolonged badgering of someone to get something. I suppose one might look at it like at the combat system - there's the long combat and there's the one-roll combat. But then, the one-roll combat system isn't there for quick fights but for less important ones.

As for Athletics, you can get a Merit to add your Weaponry or Brawl to your Defence instead... but I'm unsure about it all the same.

Mm. It's about fidelity to source material. This social mechanic is basically every episode of White Collar and Leverage ever. If you need a NOW social thing use regular dice and take the risk, same thing. Socialize to get in good, empathy to find your string to pull, then whichever social attribute you need. It's brute for e but effective, and how the old new world of darkness worked. That hasn't changed.

Single, fairly quick interactions can be just as game-defining as persuasion that takes place over the course of a few weeks, and it seems like kind of an odd hole, when most of the player's interactions will probably take place in the span of a single scene.

Still doable. Just harder to finesse.

Those rules are only for when you're performing violent actions. Threatening someone, breaking their legs, drugging them, etc., etc.

EDIT: I'm also a little wary that Athletics might become the One True Stat, but I'll wait to see how that goes in actual play.

Ah, no. I just read it. The Hard Coercion stuff (as opposed to soft) is for violence. Burning through all the doors is separate but related. If they have five doors left you can just soak a -5 penalty and say "look. I need the book. I need it bad. Please, I'll return it, I'll explain, but I need it" and see what happens.

Personally I am less enthused with the social mechanics because that's what we have been doing anyway. Not quite so codified but the differences are minute.

[MugaSofer]

God Machine angels != qashmallim.

If an angel ran into a qashmallim, it would probably blue screen trying to figure out what the hell it was.

Also, Twilight beings of different types explicitly can't consume Essence from each other, and can't even interact without appropriate Numina.

I'm going off the Numina, those little fluff bits describing what sounds a hell of a lot like a Promethian being made with help from a Quashmallim, and the general weird-looking-angels-following-an-incomprehensible-Purpose thing.

Where, exactly, do they differ beyond the general mechanics changes? And the God-Machine stuff, obviously, but I hear Demon: Revolutions angels run on "Aetheric Magnetism", not Essence, so the sci-fi level is probably variable. At one end, you have "tech-gnostic", Steampunk Cosmic Horror of the GMC is somewhere in the middle, and right on the other end you have the Divine Fire.

The eating Angel's Essence thing is a Numina, which allows the entity in question to consume the Essence of the other two types.

Languages have been 1 dot since the errata for the core book, back in... um... 2005?

D: NOBODY TOLD ME THIS.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I'm going off the Numina, those little fluff bits describing what sounds a hell of a lot like a Promethian being made with help from a Quashmallim, and the general weird-looking-angels-following-an-incomprehensible-Purpose thing.

Very thematically similar, but distinct. You could build a Mage that turns into a wolf and regenerates really fast, but that doesn't make them a Werewolf.

Wouldn't surprise me if they were inspired by the qashmallim, though, and it would be pretty easy to roll them into the same category.

The eating Angel's Essence thing is a Numina, which allows the entity in question to consume the Essence of the other two types.

Then it's no more accurate a statement than saying a human can move stuff around with their mind, yes? It's something the ghost/spirit/whatever has to learn, not an innate power.

D: NOBODY TOLD ME THIS.

To be fair, finding the errata is pretty hard. I think it got buried somewhere in the website update, and I can't even remember where I eventually found a copy.

[MugaSofer]

Very thematically similar, but distinct. You could build a Mage that turns into a wolf and regenerates really fast, but that doesn't make them a Werewolf.

It goes a little deeper than that. They use Numina that are literally copy-pasted from the Quashmallim ones, for example. That's not even getting into the fact that they fill the exact same thematic niche, since the WoD does have a tendency to overlap when it comes to monsters. Demons, for example.

Wouldn't surprise me if they were inspired by the qashmallim, though, and it would be pretty easy to roll them into the same category.

Honestly, while obviously it's far from certain, it seems more likely that these are simply the GMC equivalent of quashmalim. Just like the new variations on ghosts and spirits. Or the new Merits, for that matter.

Then it's no more accurate a statement than saying a human can move stuff around with their mind, yes? It's something the ghost/spirit/whatever has to learn, not an innate power.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply it was. It's just a possibility, that's all.

And, as an aside, mortals can move stuff with their mind, under the new Supernatural Merits, bringing into question why this isn't considered equivalent to learning a martial art or being ambidextrous. (Of course, in practice, I'm sure they're fantastically rare because no ST would let them be anywhere near as widely available as the dots would suggest.)

To be fair, finding the errata is pretty hard. I think it got buried somewhere in the website update, and I can't even remember where I eventually found a copy.

Come to think, I should probably inform the guy I'm playing with who paid three dots for the privilege of speaking Icelandic.

[Chen]

I have VtM question about Majesty (Presence 5). The implication in the fluff of the power is that people view you are great fantastic etc

The mechanics make it seem you a sort of mass dominate whereby people will follow pretty much whatever you say if they fail the requisite rolls.

How exactly do most storytellers deal with this in game during combat? And even outside combat?

[Morty]

And, as an aside, mortals can move stuff with their mind, under the new Supernatural Merits, bringing into question why this isn't considered equivalent to learning a martial art or being ambidextrous. (Of course, in practice, I'm sure they're fantastically rare because no ST would let them be anywhere near as widely available as the dots would suggest.)

Except they're not widely available. It says right there in the file that those merits aren't appropriate for all chronicles and that the Storyteller should exercise caution when dealing with them.

[MugaSofer]

Except they're not widely available. It says right there in the file that those merits aren't appropriate for all chronicles and that the Storyteller should exercise caution when dealing with them.

Well, yes. That would be why I specifically noted that the ST limits them. It's still odd; there doesn't seem to be any explanation of how people get them and what happens if/when they decide to demonstrate them to the public, or worse, the scientific community.

It's not game-breaking or anything, but it is bloody peculiar.

[Friv]

Well, yes. That would be why I specifically noted that the ST limits them. It's still odd; there doesn't seem to be any explanation of how people get them and what happens if/when they decide to demonstrate them to the public, or worse, the scientific community.

It's not game-breaking or anything, but it is bloody peculiar.

Actually, that sort of works!

Seeing weird supernatural stuff constitutes a breaking point under the new system, which means that demonstrating your ability to set things on fire with your mind to someone has an unpleasantly high chance of causing them to freak out and hate or fear you, and then try to block out the memory entirely.


Anyway, my own two cents:

I'm of mixed feelings about this rules system. I'm trying to think of it as a new edition entirely, rather than a "rules update", because that makes it a little less raw, but:

*) I dislike the new reliance on Specialties without toning down base die pools, as I feel like they are going to encourage a lot of trying to game the narrative for an extra 2-4 dice, especially given the low cost of each specialty and ability to push them to two dice for the cost of a Skill dot. I like cross-applicable Specialties, though.
*) I like that combat is more lethal, but I dislike that guns are even more absurdly powerful compared to melee. Guns were already strong compared to melee, and the new changes make them death-throwers. Also I dislike that two roughly-equal characters are going to whiff at each other all day without hitting, while a slight advantage lets one guy pretty much win with impunity.
*) I like the new Virtues and Vices
*) I hate the new Social resolution mechanics
*) I dislike the goal system for combat, as I understand it, but I may have to re-read it to be sure.
*) I hate that all weapons always do lethal damage. I would instead suggest that an exceptional success always deals half its damage as lethal or something.
*) I like that the new Integrity system has aspects for "being driven mad"
*) I absolutely, utterly hate the new breaking point system, because it brutally penalizes people for playing innocent, sheltered or just normal characters by having them go totally insane early on in the game while the police officers and occultists waltz through the setting untouched.
*) I think that I like Aspirations
*) I like the group XP system and hate the personal XP system, as the personal system rewards players for trying to dominate the spotlight.
*) I have mixed feelings about the new XP costs. I like flat costs, but based on average costs in the old game, Merits and Willpower cost less than they used to, and specialties cost quite a lot more. Also Integrity costs a ton, which is horrible in conjunction with the fact that it can be reduced against your will and playing a more normal person makes it drop faster.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot one! I feel as though most players are going to gain a heck of a lot more experience in this system, especially after a few sessions have passed. In nWoD, you're usually getting 3-4 XP per session, which is enough for a single specialty or the first dot of an Skill. Getting a fifth dot in a Skill, for example, takes about four sessions of work.

In GMC, you could conceivably get three experience points at the end of a five-scene session, and each of those is worth anywhere from 2-9 XP depending on what you spend it on.

[Lady Serpentine]

*) I hate that all weapons always do lethal damage. I would instead suggest that an exceptional success always deals half its damage as lethal or something.
*) I absolutely, utterly hate the new breaking point system, because it brutally penalizes people for playing innocent, sheltered or just normal characters by having them go totally insane early on in the game while the police officers and occultists waltz through the setting untouched.

1. Does that mean that one can no longer attempt to just beat someone up without actually breaking bones and such with, say, a club? That also seems to rather heavily depower some of the Contracts of Elements...

2. Does this apply specifically to mortals? Not that it makes it any better if it does, but it would have somewhat less of a direct effect on one of my planned characters...

[SiuiS]

Well, yes. That would be why I specifically noted that the ST limits them. It's still odd; there doesn't seem to be any explanation of how people get them and what happens if/when they decide to demonstrate them to the public, or worse, the scientific community.

It's not game-breaking or anything, but it is bloody peculiar.

The men in black drug you off to their labs for dissection.

Welcome to the world of darkness.

[Friv]

1. Does that mean that one can no longer attempt to just beat someone up without actually breaking bones and such with, say, a club? That also seems to rather heavily depower some of the Contracts of Elements...

That is correct. To quote from the free rules:

Attacks with fists and feet deal bashing damage. If you use a weapon, the damage is always lethal. Cricket bats and brass knuckles can shatter bones and crush skulls with far less effort than kicking someone to death. Some weapons have modifiers of +0. They don’t add any bonus successes, but the attack still deals lethal damage. If you don’t want to kill someone by accident, drop your weapon.

There are some rules for how, if you're not walking into a fight specifically to kill someone, you lose a permanent point of Willpower for killing them, but if you deal any lethal damage at all they have to spend Willpower each turn to keep fighting. It's a weird and kind of heavy-handed way to keep things from getting out of hand.

Also, you can spend one Willpower per attack to deal bashing damage with a weapon.

2. Does this apply specifically to mortals? Not that it makes it any better if it does, but it would have somewhat less of a direct effect on one of my planned characters...

Applies specifically to everyone with a Morality track.

*EDIT* Sorry, that's wrong. Weapons dealing lethal always applies to everyone. The thing about having to declare intent to kill or lose permanent Willpower does not apply to monsters with no Morality track, who are assumed to always be declaring intent to kill.

Also, and this is just a little thing, having a weapon lowers your Initiative, because it's a well known fact that if I have a knife and you have your fists, you're generally going to be able to hit me before I can hit you.

[Lady Serpentine]

I was referring to the breaking point system with '2', actually.

However, that raises new questions - does spending Willpower to deal bashing damage apply to all weapons? I find the concept of someone concentrating really hard to make bullets not go through the person they're shooting at amusing...

I guess the Initiative thing is meant to reflect having to pull out your weapon? If it doesn't include some kind of caveat about having it out already, though, that does seem rather foolish...

[Friv]

I was referring to the breaking point system with '2', actually.

Apparently supernaturals may be interacting with the Integrity system differently, but we don't know how yet.

However, that raises new questions - does spending Willpower to deal bashing damage apply to all weapons? I find the concept of someone concentrating really hard to make bullets not go through the person they're shooting at amusing...

Yep, as written, that's exactly what happens.

I guess the Initiative thing is meant to reflect having to pull out your weapon? If it doesn't include some kind of caveat about having it out already, though, that does seem rather foolish...

Nope, the Initiative penalty lasts for the whole fight, and stacks if you carry two weapons.

A few more bits of combat hilarity!

1) Hitting someone with the butt of your uzi does the same amount of damage as shooting them point-blank, although it is far less accurate.
2) There is no accuracy penalty to shooting someone in close combat, as the rule that you get your defense against guns in close combat has been replaced by a rule that applies a penalty of (Gun Size -1) to the attack roll. This matters a lot since equivalent opponents will generally be throwing 0-1 dice in close combat, but equivalent opponents with guns are always playing rocket tag. So never take a knife anywhere; a hold-out pistol in its holster is a better choice than a knife in your hand, since you can dodge the knife easily, draw your gun, and blow the other guy to kingdom come with one shot.
3) There's no advantage to getting behind cover, unless you get completely behind cover, at which point you're essentially invincible if the cover is tough enough. This means that if two people are in a gunfight, they're pretty much reduced to hiding behind things forever because the first guy to try and move at all is just going to die.
4) Human shields magically cover your entire body and cannot be avoided with good shots, and always take a lot of damage before you do.

Seriously, I cannot stress enough how amazingly deadly guns are now.

[Lady Serpentine]

3) There's no advantage to getting behind cover, unless you get completely behind cover, at which point you're essentially invincible if the cover is tough enough. This means that if two people are in a gunfight, they're pretty much reduced to hiding behind things forever because the first guy to try and move at all is just going to die.

4) Human shields magically cover your entire body and cannot be avoided with good shots, and always take a lot of damage before you do.

3. So assassinating someone as they're driving is now... heavily difficult, to say the least?

A car's driver and passengers are considered under full cover...

...Shots fired must pass through the window or door before the target can be hurt. A typical vehicle window has Durability 1, Size 3, and Structure 4, and an attack to hit a window specifically suffers a -1 penalty. A typical door has Durability 3, Size 3, and Structure 6, and targeting it also imposes a -1 penalty...

4. How does that interact with the rules for 'Specified Targets' (Core, p165 )? It sounds like it makes them almost entirely useless for the main thing they'd be used for...