General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[Leliel]

News on the Demon front: Subtitle is Descent.

Similar to Falling, but much safer and deliberate. Also doesn't carry the same implication at all: you came down from Heaven because you wanted to come down. You weren't pushed.

[MugaSofer]

Funny, Descent sounds much darker to my ears. A slow but inevitable slide downwards ... a Fall is something that happened in the past, but a Descent is something ongoing.

On the other hand, it's hard to see the sense in which these demons are "fallen" anyway - they aren't lower in any sense, just ... unrestricted.*

*Fun fact: I went through approximately ten different versions of that last word, trying to pick one that wasn't unambiguously a good or bad thing.

[Leliel]

Funny, Descent sounds much darker to my ears. A slow but inevitable slide downwards ... a Fall is something that happened in the past, but a Descent is something ongoing.

According to Ian Watson BlackHat_Matt (on RPGnet), that's actually the same logic demons use-Falling is the moment an angel decides to tender his resignation and reprogram himself, the Descent is the state of demonic existence.

Given how infamously corrupt most resistance groups get, it seems fitting.

But still, what falls may rise again. It's not particularly bleaker a title than Fallen. That implies you lost forever.

[123456789blaaa]

9 pages since the last reply in the debate...wow. Sorry SiuiS.

<snip>No, I don't believe so. I'm speaking in general. The difference between a normal legacy and the Legion is in the fluff. Mechanically, they still show up on soul marks, and are still just shaping your soul, which still requires induction into the legacy somehow. The strongest way into that is through a mentor. Although I could see the mentor being the Gulmoth itself.

Okay but having your soul shaped by a Legacy doesn't seem to actually influence you in any way. It doesn't make you more evil by itself

Harder or easier is moot. If you make it known to the ST this is your goal, you'll get there at the speed of plot. The most important part is what's good for the story.

A legacy is evolving your soul. You could consider that as important as having a template in D&D and get it for the +2 then ignore it, or it could be important to the game. I prefer and respond more to the second one, because otherwise you don't get any role playing you just have a bunch of dice rolls and declarations of successes. It becomes like arguing a contract, and its boring to me.

So preemptively, yes, you could have the Legion legacy and no one bats an eye and you have cool powers, but that's stupid and I don't care and I don't understand why you would want something so useful and powerful at driving a story and then not want that story.

Now see...Legion isn't actually all that great for power. It's attainments are not really that good. They're good enough to not make taking Legion a horrible waste but they certainly aren't good enough to justify all the social implications you'll face in the game world. If a WOD player wants a Legacy with good power than the Orphans of Proteus is a much better choice. Broad use, almost no social problems caused by it. Heck, if you really really want effects that duplicate Legions attainments for some reason then just create a new Legacy and file of the serial numbers.

I'm arguing what I'm arguing because I think it opens up many interesting story opportunities. The philosophical implications of the Abyss are very interesting and I think you're doing it a disservice by making into "evil bad thing that is bad". I think that you're pideonholing the Abyss into one specific role that it isn't even really that good at. I don't understand why you think there's only one usefull and powerful thing driving one specific story when there are so many more.

I don't think so, actually. Using the abyss to file your magic is addictive and eventually twists you into serving it. Tome of the mysteries lets a Mage infuse his casting with abyssal energy, cuts paradox and works like most drug mechanics. You get to the second stage of addiction, and you're now scelestus.

You can be a Scelestus and not use those rules. I don't even think it would be all that unusual for a Scelestus to abstain from doing so. Maybe they don't want the signs on their aura, maybe they just hate being addicted to anything, maybe they think it's sign of weakness. Their are lots of good reasons. I don't see why almost all Scelestus would force their apprentices to do it.

That's possible, but unlikely. Your mast would have gnosis 7' which is a requirement (I think?) for passing on a legacy, which means that its not just between you. And your master — it's between you, your master, and three reality-feasting demons, one of whom may have replaced said master's CNS.

The Brain gulmoth is the only one that actually influences you so I'm not seeing the problem.

I find it a little tacky that you request a citation and then counter my assertion with surmise of your own. Either we are dealing in good faith or we are not.

You are free to request citations for the stuff I say. I do have text evidence behind my claims. I said what I said in the part you quoted to show that they were my interpretations of the text and interpretations can of course be wrong.

The abyss is many things, possibly nonsense included. The abyss in non-ens, but you missed the point of my statement. If you pin down the abyss then you're setting yourself up, because anecdotally (and this you CAN get from the writers, since it shows up in every example of the abyss that applies which I have read) everyone who thinks they have hate abyss figured out gets twisted. Every. One. It's not a rule, it's not fluff, it's a metaconceit.

Aren't you pinning down the Abyss yourself with your first sentance? In fact, aren't you pinning it down by saying that the Abyss is (paraphrasing here) The worst!
POSSIBLE!
THING!?

While the Abyss as a whole is unknowable and uncomprehendable and unpinnable and un-etc, I think that we can at least pin down specific parts of the Abyss. We can say that this particular gulmoth is corruptive or this particular acamoth doesn't like puppies. If this is not so than we might as well give up on talking about the Abyss altogether except for purely practical matters like gaming sessions.

And what about Theumiel? He's actually a great example of what I'm talking about. He wants a more compassionate world and is using the Abyss as a tool to do that. And while he isn't really a full "good guy", he didn't really seem that corrupted from his bio (it has been a while since I've read it though. Maybe he slaughtered his teammates or something? I'll check once I get access to my books again).

If you want pure evil, look to pandemonium. It is He'll, after all. Except pandemonium is the kind of evil you can learn from, and better yourself thereby. Stygia is a terrible bleak place and no one would ever really want to get there, except its balm for the soul in a literal fashion.

The abyss isn't. It takes. It does not give. And this does come from somewhere, though I can't recall exactly which section of which book (but I only have core, tome of the mysteries, adamantine arrow, mysterium, tome of the watchtowers, keys to the Superbad tarot, legacies: the ancient, magical traditions and seers of the throne)' but it does say somewhere that there are those who think they get something out of the arrangement, but in the end it is ashes in their mouth, as they trade away substance for fleeting illusion.

Pandemonium isn't really very evil. There's a line in Imperial Mysteries where it states that as you go deeper into Pandemonium there are portals to Inferno which turn the self-improvement of the denizens of Pandemonium into "naked atrocities". Pandemonium is like boot camp-tough but good for you.I think it's been pretty well hammered by the books that the supernal is a good thing. Inferno on the other hand went out of its way to show that Inferno was bad bad BAD.

I vaguely recall what you're talking about in the second paragraph. I'll try and find it and I'd appreciate if you did too (unless you're willing to drop this line of the argument).

Also, I don't get why the Abyss is so great for telling stories about hubris. It doesn't even seem that good at it. Something like Inferno seems far more suited to doing that. What does the Abyss really have to tempt you with that they don't?

And I think I can give you a logical and plausible way the Abyss could be "good" (this is a modified version of an idea by a poster called TheKingsRaven):

One of the known aspects of the Abyss is that it is a realm of Paradox. Another is that it has everything in it.

Deep inside the Abyss there is a realm. This world is one that could not exist anywhere but the Abyss. This is because it violates a fundamental principal of the universe. In this world, everything is perfect. You get everything for nothing. The law of equivalent exchange is broken. This is a fundamental paradox.

And I don't mean it's only perfect on the surface and that horror lies beneath. I'm not saying that it is too perfect and will leave your mind numb or broken. I'm saying it is genuienly and actually perfect. There is no hidden fist. It is awesome.

Now something like this can breed many story opportunities. Perhaps there is a group-a Legacy even-that wants to travel to that world and bring everyone who wants to with them. They're not Scelestus or corrupt (though indiviual members might be) they genuinely believe that this world is impossible to fix.

Just because the Abyss isn't automatically turning them into evil sociopaths doesn't mean you can't use them for stories that unfold in true WOD fashion. You could (for example) use them for a story which contrasts the horrors of the Abyss with the horrors of the human condition. You could show that people don't need alien beings from other demensions to make the world scary and meaningless. And/Or you could use them to explore the concept of cowardice. When is it appropriate to run and when to fight?

Man I'm really getting inspired by this. If they were a Legacy what attainments would they have? It has to be partially messed up of course (what's the point of using the Abyss otherwise?) but I don't want the downsides to be from the Abyss just being objectively bad...

I'm thinking that they create their own mini-paradise, an imperfect version of the perfect world (a paradox you might say ho ho ho). When you come out of the mini-paradise however you become more susceptible to degeneration (and perhaps you have to make a degeneration roll when you come out). Being in such an amazing place and then coming back down to a place where you have to work for your happiness is bound to cause mental strain. It's so much easier to just stay in the paradise more and more...not because of the abyssal nature of the paradise but because it's just so perfect.

<snip>Not for nothing. Cerebral stimulation is fun on occasion, I just like variety. If I wanted pure numbers crunching I'd go back to D&D ;)

You can have cerebral stimulation in dnd. You just have to initiate it for yourself since the books don't expect you too.

"I know thousands of years of history say the abyss is
The
Worst
POSSIBLE
THING!
But I know better because I'm not shackled to objective morality like those other guys" is hubris at its finest, it is at its core saying I'm correct, you're not, because I'm better.

Personally, I think the game benefits from an objectively bad thing which cannot be beaten. You don't triumph against the abyss. There is no abyssal happily ever after. The best you can do is lock it back up and move on. It's a poisonous thing, like an abusive relationship. You don't reform the abyss. You move, change your phone number and don't send a postcard.

How much info do mages in general have on the Abyss anyways? We have a ton but how much of that do they know? And who said anything about morality? I thought you said the Abyss wasn't evil?

Saying "everyone else failed so you will too" leaves something of a bad taste in my mouth. Isn't rational debate a better way to decide what to do? What about all those other people who took the first step? You don't see too many sickly kids becoming body builders and movie stars but Arnold Schwarzenegger did.

On your second paragraph...I actually partially agree with you. Having an objectively bad thing that cannot be beaten is practically required in setting like the WOD. I just think that the Abyss is far to interesting to put into that role.

It's like those henchmen antagonists in stories that care for nothing but satiating their own physical urges. Those guys can benefit a story but I'd hate to make say...Darth Vadar into one.

<snip>The Gulmoth replaces the body part with a gulmoth, which is an abyssal entity, which the book does posit is likely corrosive to reality.

I do remember something like that. Can I get quote?

<snip>Abyssal entities are extensions of the abyss. Literally. If the abyss goes away, the Gulmoth also goes away because it doesn't exactly have the same relationship to the abyss as a human has to earth.

Is it also worth pointing out that you say Gulmoth involved may be as dumb as insects but also smart enough to realize that's lone Mage cannot beat the abyss?

Can I get quote on gulmoth being extensions of the abyss?

And I was giving them as seperate examples. Like if the Gulmoth aren't as dumb as insects (or if they don't even have minds at all) then they would realize that a lone mage couldn't destroy the Abyss just by beating up Intruders.

And of course, it's possible the mage's goals don't involve specifically hurting the Abyss at all. Maybe he became a Legion mage as a stepping stone to a method of creating more puppies using the power of the Abyss. He'll still fend off the Abyss when neccesary but he won't specially seek it out.

To follow this further, they wouldn't be human anymore. They would be changed enough to survive spacecattle environs, genetically, mentally, spiritually. Attaching legion Gulmoth changes your soul. With other legacies, we have a nominal nod to "you're still human, just refined" from the rest of the awakened world on most legacies. Not so much with legion.

Or Daksha. But I'm not sure if blue skinned, three eyed hermaphrodites are lateral, or an improvement to the human condition. But legacies don't exist so I guess it doesn't matter. At least they are nice enough not to ape being human.
<snip>

Since the humans in this analogy are gulmoth I'm not seeing the problem .

Attaching Legion gulmoth don't change your soul anymore than any other Legacy does. You're free to houserule for your games of course but from the Legacy writeup I'm not seeing it.

And of course you have the question of "what is a man".

Really, the WOD books have had multiple writers. Some share your view (which is probably how you got the text quotes I'm vaguely remembering) and some probably lean a bit more towards my view (which is how we get Theumiel). I could be wrong about my interpretation of course but I think there's enough text evidence for it to go either way.

[Leliel]

Since I only need to say one thing, I won't quote:

@123456789blaaa: Most, if not all of that, is true. It's quite possible there is a utopia in the Abyss, it's probably where Theumiel draws all those predation-less animals from when he and the Shadow Angel cultists are trying to replace an ecology.

And yet, they're horrifying. They're friendly, they're tame, and yet they're horrifying. Why?

Because the Abyss is fundamentally incompatible with reality. No matter how nice it is, no matter how wonderful it would be in its own reality, an intrusion is something that simply doesn't mesh with the universe, and it corrupts reality because of it.

Thus, it is bad. No because the contents are bad in and of itself, but it's bad for everything else, for the same reason that nuclear radiation is bad for you.

[Water_Bear]

Not to mention that most of what we see of the Abyss is more on the "nightmarish horror" side; Prince of 100,000 Leaves anyone?

In my view, this isn't because the Abyss is evil per se, but because it is random. Think about it like a simplified view of entropy; there are a small number of "ordered" bits of the Abyss which humans can thrive and live comfortably, and a nigh-infinite number of "disordered" ones which are horrific in one way or another. Any time you introduce a bit of Abyss into the Fallen World, especially in an uncontrolled way like Paradox, you are almost certainly making it a little less habitable for humans.

[SiuiS]

9 pages since the last reply in the debate...wow. Sorry SiuiS.

Okay. I won't be as invested as previously though.

Okay but having your soul shaped by a Legacy doesn't seem to actually influence you in any way. It doesn't make you more evil by itself

Committing murder changes the state of your soul. Committing murder doesn't influence you in any way.

You're still a murderer.

Now see...Legion isn't actually all that great for power.

Powerful at driving the story.

You can be a Scelestus and not use those rules.

I don't think you can. It's specifically one of those things you get mechanically forced to via exposure, right?

Aren't you pinning down the Abyss yourself with your first sentance?

No. This was a meta level decision. Acknowledging a soft rule in the system is different from making a declarative, in game statement.

Pandemonium isn't really very evil. There's a line in Imperial Mysteries where it states that as you go deeper into Pandemonium there are portals to Inferno which turn the self-improvement of the denizens of Pandemonium into "naked atrocities". Pandemonium is like boot camp-tough but good for you.I think it's been pretty well hammered by the books that the supernal is a good thing. Inferno on the other hand went out of its way to show that Inferno was bad bad BAD.

it can be good for you. Post traumatic stress, leads to either PTSD or post traumatic growth. But it is hell.

Also, I don't get why the Abyss is so great for telling stories about hubris. It doesn't even seem that good at it. Something like Inferno seems far more suited to doing that. What does the Abyss really have to tempt you with that they don't?

Find for me the Mage book with all the details of Inferno, then. Because as much you can mash all the WoD books together, each one is indeed it's own closed system.

Deep inside the Abyss there is a realm. This world is one that could not exist anywhere but the Abyss. This is because it violates a fundamental principal of the universe. In this world, everything is perfect. You get everything for nothing. The law of equivalent exchange is broken. This is a fundamental paradox.

That's not an abyssal-required realm, that's what the pentacle wants to get rid of the Throne for. Equivalent exchange, kyriarchy, predator/prey, entropy as inviolable decline, and things we have long assumed have so utterly part of reality that it is hard to imagine a world without them? All exist because anywhere from 11 to a thousand horrid jackasses rewrote reality retroactively and locked the door to secure their power.

You can have cerebral stimulation in dnd. You just have to initiate it for yourself since the books don't expect you too.

And? This doesn't contradict, or agree, with what I said, nor does it drive our discussion any further. It's an acknowledgement for the sake of being technically complete?

How much info do mages in general have on the Abyss anyways? We have a ton but how much of that do they know? And who said anything about morality? I thought you said the Abyss wasn't evil?

Depends on what the ST wants to run.

Saying "everyone else failed so you will too" leaves something of a bad taste in my mouth.

Me, too.

I do remember something like that. Can I get quote?

Can I get quote on gulmoth being extensions of the abyss?

Bot these bits of info come up in the descriptions of the abyss. Most likely the core. But as I go back and forth from book to PDF and around again, no, I can't find it quickly.

Really, the WOD books have had multiple writers. Some share your view (which is probably how you got the text quotes I'm vaguely remembering) and some probably lean a bit more towards my view (which is how we get Theumiel). I could be wrong about my interpretation of course but I think there's enough text evidence for it to go either way.

woD is written specifically to allow exceptions and such. It is a hard and fast rule that the abyss is bad, the end. whether that can be changed is, however, fluid. In game, the possibility of utilizing the abyss, of finding a new way of soing things, is open and always possibile. It is a valid in game discussion of which you can never be sure.

Out of game, rules-only, it's not. Out of game, there is a clear, hard answer that requires ST fiat or selective application. This is intended, and works well. It makes sure the driving forces of personality occur in game, where there is benefit.

Since I only need to say one thing, I won't quote:

@123456789blaaa: Most, if not all of that, is true. It's quite possible there is a utopia in the Abyss, it's probably where Theumiel draws all those predation-less animals from when he and the Shadow Angel cultists are trying to replace an ecology.

And yet, they're horrifying. They're friendly, they're tame, and yet they're horrifying. Why?

Because the Abyss is fundamentally incompatible with reality. No matter how nice it is, no matter how wonderful it would be in its own reality, an intrusion is something that simply doesn't mesh with the universe, and it corrupts reality because of it.

Thus, it is bad. No because the contents are bad in and of itself, but it's bad for everything else, for the same reason that nuclear radiation is bad for you.

Basically, yes.

[MugaSofer]

Now, I never really got "into" Mage, but ... the Abyss is the dark side of changing reality, right? It's the impossible Matrix glitches, the Things that really Should Not Be. In a game focused on sticking it to the Exarchs, the Abyss represents the hubris of thinking that your vision is better or even internally coherent when you try to put it into practice.

I mean, sure, it's also a physical place and a source of guilt-free antagonists to kill, but that's the thematic point behind it, right? And that theme is important. It's a dark mirror held up to magic.

[Leliel]

Now, I never really got "into" Mage, but ... the Abyss is the dark side of changing reality, right? It's the impossible Matrix glitches, the Things that really Should Not Be. In a game focused on sticking it to the Exarchs, the Abyss represents the hubris of thinking that your vision is better or even internally coherent when you try to put it into practice.

I mean, sure, it's also a physical place and a source of guilt-free antagonists to kill, but that's the thematic point behind it, right? And that theme is important. It's a dark mirror held up to magic.

Yes. It's also the unsolvable mystery, the inscrutable, hostile Other, and the results of recklessness.

Frankly, the Abyss hits everything in cosmic, Lovecraftian horror, except the cosmic part-it's there because you, personally, let it in. There's nothing in it that speaks to man's insignificance, because man's significance is why it exists in the first place.

And that makes it so much worse.

[SiuiS]

Yes. It's also the unsolvable mystery, the inscrutable, hostile Other, and the results of recklessness.

Frankly, the Abyss hits everything in cosmic, Lovecraftian horror, except the cosmic part-it's there because you, personally, let it in. There's nothing in it that speaks to man's insignificance, because man's significance is why it exists in the first place.

And that makes it so much worse.

Yes.

The abyss is a planar location. This is the. Worst. Possible. Thing.

Why?
Because every human soul contains the universe. In ancient times, you could literally meditate into your own soul, and keep walking from this world to dream to the world soul to heaven or hell. Now? Now, between your soul and heaven, lies the corruption of the abyss.

The abyss is in your soul. Entropy exists inside you, forever. You are your own worst enemy. You are a pod person working against your own best interests. And any time magic collapse causes the abyss to grow... You literally lose more of your soul – which has limited real estate – to this non-ens that devours everything special and worthwhile about you.

Sure, maybe eventually utopia arises from the abyss, but it does so by bursting out of your chest like a xenomorph.

[123456789blaaa]

@ everyone: Sorry if some of my post comes off as rude. I was mostly focusing on just getting it done.

Since I only need to say one thing, I won't quote:

@123456789blaaa: Most, if not all of that, is true. It's quite possible there is a utopia in the Abyss, it's probably where Theumiel draws all those predation-less animals from when he and the Shadow Angel cultists are trying to replace an ecology.

And yet, they're horrifying. They're friendly, they're tame, and yet they're horrifying. Why?

Because the Abyss is fundamentally incompatible with reality. No matter how nice it is, no matter how wonderful it would be in its own reality, an intrusion is something that simply doesn't mesh with the universe, and it corrupts reality because of it.

Thus, it is bad. No because the contents are bad in and of itself, but it's bad for everything else, for the same reason that nuclear radiation is bad for you.

Does it matter if they look horrifying? If they're not harming anyone than what's the problem?

Can I get a quote on Abyssal creatures corrupting reality just by existing?

Not to mention that most of what we see of the Abyss is more on the "nightmarish horror" side; Prince of 100,000 Leaves anyone?

In my view, this isn't because the Abyss is evil per se, but because it is random. Think about it like a simplified view of entropy; there are a small number of "ordered" bits of the Abyss which humans can thrive and live comfortably, and a nigh-infinite number of "disordered" ones which are horrific in one way or another. Any time you introduce a bit of Abyss into the Fallen World, especially in an uncontrolled way like Paradox, you are almost certainly making it a little less habitable for humans.

Can I get a quote on that? I understand specific instances like if you provoke a paradox manfestation but I don't know about in general.

<snip>
Committing murder changes the state of your soul. Committing murder doesn't influence you in any way.

You're still a murderer.

I don't follow. In WOD commiting murder does influence you because it is a Wisdom sin. There are many ways moving down the Morality track influences you mentally and spiritually.

Attaching Gulmoth to your body on the other hand is not very different from getting an organ transplant except you also get superpowers.

Powerful at driving the story.

Did I ever dispute this?:

I don't understand why you think there's only one usefull and powerful thing driving one specific story when there are so many more

I don't think you can. It's specifically one of those things you get mechanically forced to via exposure, right?

Nope. I'm looking at my copy of the Tome of Mysteries right now and drawing the Abyss into your magic is a concious choice.

No. This was a meta level decision. Acknowledging a soft rule in the system is different from making a declarative, in game statement.

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this part of your post. Could you rephrase? What is "this"? By "soft rule in the system" do you mean the percieved metaconceit of the Abyss being the Worst Possible Thing? By "declarative, in game statement" do you mean your saying that the abyss is "many things, possibly nonsense included"?

it can be good for you. Post traumatic stress, leads to either PTSD or post traumatic growth. But it is hell.

I was under the impression that (unlike boot camp) Pandemonium always succeeds in strengthening you. People who go to Pandemonium don't break.

I never disputed that it was "hell", I disputed that it was evil.

Find for me the Mage book with all the details of Inferno, then. Because as much you can mash all the WoD books together, each one is indeed it's own closed system.

I'm sorry but I don't follow again. Are you saying that I shouldn't assume Inferno exists when talking about M:TA?

That's not an abyssal-required realm, that's what the pentacle wants to get rid of the Throne for. Equivalent exchange, kyriarchy, predator/prey, entropy as inviolable decline, and things we have long assumed have so utterly part of reality that it is hard to imagine a world without them? All exist because anywhere from 11 to a thousand horrid jackasses rewrote reality retroactively and locked the door to secure their power.

Just look at the Oracles and the Exarchs. Both of these people (assuming they're real) exist in the Supernal and both are at least a little unhappy. This makes it inferior to the Abyssal realm I was talking about.

The whole point of the Abyssal realm I was talking about is that things can be completely perfect for everyone in there even when that would be impossible. You can both have the joy of having your parents be alive and at the same time have the strength gained from coping with their loss. The person whose idea of paradise is torturing animals all day can be with the person whose idea of paradise is saving animals from being tortured all day and they can both be happy. You can have Exarchs that want to brutally rule the world and Oracles who want to keep it free. This only works because the Abyss is a realm of Paradox. Things that shouldn't be able to exist can inside it.

And? This doesn't contradict, or agree, with what I said, nor does it drive our discussion any further. It's an acknowledgement for the sake of being technically complete?

Your post implied to me that dnd didn't have anything in it that would provoke cerebral stimulation (this isn't that uncommon an opinion among WOD players either). I was correcting that because as someone who prefers DnD to WOD, it was slightly insulting.

It's true that it doesn't drive our discussion on the Abyss any further. However, neither does the part of the post I was replying too. I do not see the problem in this.

Depends on what the ST wants to run.

So as far as you know the books don't give a "canon" answer?

Do you agree then, that it is perfectly possible for a mage to not know about thousands of years of history declaring the Abyss to be the Worst Possible Thing?

Bot these bits of info come up in the descriptions of the abyss. Most likely the core. But as I go back and forth from book to PDF and around again, no, I can't find it quickly.

I'm fine with waiting as long as you need. However, if you do not want to search at all then it would be best to drop that line of the argument.

woD is written specifically to allow exceptions and such. It is a hard and fast rule that the abyss is bad, the end. whether that can be changed is, however, fluid. In game, the possibility of utilizing the abyss, of finding a new way of soing things, is open and always possibile. It is a valid in game discussion of which you can never be sure.

Out of game, rules-only, it's not. Out of game, there is a clear, hard answer that requires ST fiat or selective application. This is intended, and works well. It makes sure the driving forces of personality occur in game, where there is benefit.
<snip>

Your first sentance and second sentance seem to contradict themselves.

Also, in this part of your post you seem to be making statements without any backing. Unless you can find an authorial quote saying what you are saying, then you've got to show me evidence from the books to convince me. That was the point of this debate right?

Yes. It's also the unsolvable mystery, the inscrutable, hostile Other, and the results of recklessness.

Frankly, the Abyss hits everything in cosmic, Lovecraftian horror, except the cosmic part-it's there because you, personally, let it in. There's nothing in it that speaks to man's insignificance, because man's significance is why it exists in the first place.

And that makes it so much worse.

Wasn't it the ah Exarchs who let it in? Weren't they the ones who shattered the Ladder?

Yes.

The abyss is a planar location. This is the. Worst. Possible. Thing.

Why?
Because every human soul contains the universe. In ancient times, you could literally meditate into your own soul, and keep walking from this world to dream to the world soul to heaven or hell. Now? Now, between your soul and heaven, lies the corruption of the abyss.

The abyss is in your soul. Entropy exists inside you, forever. You are your own worst enemy. You are a pod person working against your own best interests. And any time magic collapse causes the abyss to grow... You literally lose more of your soul – which has limited real estate – to this non-ens that devours everything special and worthwhile about you.

Sure, maybe eventually utopia arises from the abyss, but it does so by bursting out of your chest like a xenomorph.

May I assume that you're mostly being poetic in this post? That is, you don't actually have quotes for the Abyss devouring a part of your soul everytime it grows bigger?

[Water_Bear]

Can I get a quote on that? I understand specific instances like if you provoke a paradox manfestation but I don't know about in general.

If you're looking for RAW in the World of Darkness you're going to be disappointed. The fluff is sketchy on details because characters aren't supposed to know much, some degree of crossover between booklines is anticipated, and ST's are supposed to decide these things on their own.

My reasoning is based on more basic principles; if the Abyss is truly random and doesn't typically obey our physical laws (probably true given the fluff), and humans can only tolerate a narrow band of habitable environments (absolutely true), then pulling in any given bit of Abyss is most likely a bad idea by virtue of basic math. The same way that shaking up a container of black and white marbles could result in an even checkerboard arrangement but will almost certainly just end up as a jumble.

Just look at the Oracles and the Exarchs. Both of these people (assuming they're real) exist in the Supernal and both are at least a little unhappy. This makes it inferior to the Abyssal realm I was talking about.

The whole point of the Abyssal realm I was talking about is that things can be completely perfect for everyone in there even when that would be impossible. You can both have the joy of having your parents be alive and at the same time have the strength gained from coping with their loss. The person whose idea of paradise is torturing animals all day can be with the person whose idea of paradise is saving animals from being tortured all day and they can both be happy. You can have Exarchs that want to brutally rule the world and Oracles who want to keep it free. This only works because the Abyss is a realm of Paradox. Things that shouldn't be able to exist can inside it.

The thing is, the Supernal is supposed to be paradise (even if a ruined one) and the Abyss is the thing in the way, much like in the Kabbalistic Judaism it's based on. Reversing that, where the Abyss is utopian and Supernal conflicts are the problem, is 100% at odds with that core idea of the gameline. Not that it's a bad idea or wrong, just that it's not going to be easy to reconcile with the default fluff.

[Leliel]

Does it matter if they look horrifying? If they're not harming anyone than what's the problem?

Can I get a quote on Abyssal creatures corrupting reality just by existing?

(A) Not inherently. But they can only survive in an ecology that is corrupted, and a large problem in the Shadow (often involving Umbragos, who pretty much is the textbook definition of a hostile Abyssal spirit-he's in Intruders, he's basically a spirit that appears in damaged loci and gets other spirits to feed from him, turning them into nihilistic servants). That, and they're toxic to other animal life, due to being composed of alien matter.

(B) I can't find the source right now but a dev responded to this exact argument with a single .gif. Of Glitch City.

Even in Summoners, they're called "software bugs in existence."

[123456789blaaa]

Alright, so I was looking through my copy of Intruders: Encouters with the Abyss and found this quote:

Likewise, once the Void has found a foothold, the Void can only act according to its instinctive mandate: debase, devour and destroy. Nothing in the Abyss is even capable of working toward any end that we would consider ultimately beneficial. An intruder may use means that seem good, or at least harmless, and it might, intentionally or otherwise, bring about occurrences that have the seeming of benevolence about them, but the intruder can no more avoid causing harm to the things of the Fallen World than the scorpion can be taught not to sting.

So canon pretty much rules out the Legion demonhunter idea. And while it does only talk about Intruders, it seems like splitting hairs to exclude places or ideas in the Abyss from this quote.

So yeah. canon proves me wrong on this one. However, if anyone is still interested I'd still enjoy debating on why I think the version of the Abyss I've been talking about is more interesting than the default as well as answering your posts above.

If you're looking for RAW in the World of Darkness you're going to be disappointed. The fluff is sketchy on details because characters aren't supposed to know much, some degree of crossover between booklines is anticipated, and ST's are supposed to decide these things on their own.

My reasoning is based on more basic principles; if the Abyss is truly random and doesn't typically obey our physical laws (probably true given the fluff), and humans can only tolerate a narrow band of habitable environments (absolutely true), then pulling in any given bit of Abyss is most likely a bad idea by virtue of basic math. The same way that shaking up a container of black and white marbles could result in an even checkerboard arrangement but will almost certainly just end up as a jumble.
<snip>

Not really RAW...more like FAW (Fluff As Written). While it's true that much of the fluff in the WOD is left murky, there is some that isn't. For example, the "truth" of the Abyss is detailed on page 40 and 41 of Intruder: Encounters with the Abyss.

Speculation is fine but unless you have direct text evidence behind it, you should probably mark it as such. Otherwise things can get confusing.

[SiuiS]

Does it matter if they look horrifying? If they're not harming anyone than what's the problem?

I read that as they are horrifying, not that they look horrifying.

I don't follow. In WOD commiting murder does influence you because it is a Wisdom sin. There are many ways moving down the Morality track influences you mentally and spiritually.

Attaching Gulmoth to your body on the other hand is not very different from getting an organ transplant except you also get superpowers.

You do have me there. So.
Murder does not always lower your morality.

The idea however was one of backwards progression. Summoning Gulmoth. does not make you a bad person, but you have to be a bad person to summon gulmoth. Leaning how requires reading through tomes which corrupt you, making deals with entities that corrupt you, or serving a scelesti who corrupts you. If none of these come to pass, you are in an Exception, so the Rule does not apply, while still being true.

Did I ever dispute this?:

You were misapplying it. Any use of the word power in that statement not aimed at driving the story is misreading my intent. You began talking about the mechanical power you get from Gulmoth, so I corrected you. The strength of the Gulmoth (at anything other than narrative drive) is irrelevant.

Nope. I'm looking at my copy of the Tome of Mysteries right now and drawing the Abyss into your magic is a concious choice.

Okay. It must be addictive once you start, then.

I was under the impression that (unlike boot camp) Pandemonium always succeeds in strengthening you. People who go to Pandemonium don't break.

I never disputed that it was "hell", I disputed that it was evil.

Semantic quibbles. I have no interest in the finer points of whether hell is evil.
Pandemonium is responsible for mental and spatial weirdness. Where pandemonium leaks into reality, you get stuff like dementia and OCD. You also get super geniuses, sure. But no, not everyone is up to the task, that's why they are supposed to be able to flow trough other Supernal realms when they die. To recharge the parts of themselves that were deficient.

It's also true that "Pandemonium" is not a single place which houses all pandemoniacal things; it is a name for a grouped and like set of concepts, objects and ideals. From one of the writers, saying "The Aether is not a place, it's" as above, a collective name for all Aethyric things. The Supernal is conceptual as much as extra planar, if not more so; they are, true to gnostic and new age perceptions, more states of mind, states of being, and vibrational states than a physical place you move to. They have to be, ecauae movement an distance are dirty lies forced on you by some jackass who conquered pandemonium.

Pandemonium is things which are mind****s. They are not good; having everyone around you die in a collapsing building and leaving you as the only survivor is not good. But it can make you stronger. I you face it, there is growth. And demons will assail you until you do face it; hell is inevitable.

I'm sorry but I don't follow again. Are you saying that I shouldn't assume Inferno exists when talking about M:TA?

To a degree? Yes.

Just look at the Oracles and the Exarchs. Both of these people (assuming they're real) exist in the Supernal and both are at least a little unhappy. This makes it inferior to the Abyssal realm I was talking about.

The Supernal is True. Your abyssal realm is not True. It is gnostically inferior and will remain that way. It is the illusion i fulfillment which keeps you in the flesh and prevents your transcendence.

You misunderstood though. The only reason the fallen world sucks is because the existence of the Exarchs – of any awakened – at the source of reality, the Supernal, changes things. Fundamentally. Being able to quantify all things, abstract them to numbers and run equations, is only possible because Mammon enforces the concept of worth. The circle of life involves predation and the view o predator as superior to pray only because the Raptor exists. These things would not be without them.

There is a strong undercurrent you can find that the "Fall of Atlantis" happened in the 1400s, around the renaissance. How? Time and space are both illusion art in their own way. The past changed during the fall. Every time a new awakened soul makes it to the Supernal, they can change reality this fundamentally. The Exarchs and, possibly, the Oracles can do it better because they are there body and soul; their power is utter and absolute. If a new sorcerer ascended to Supernal in this fashion, everything would change and only those shielded with strong imperial magic would know things were not always this way.

And I'm not sure if strong imperial magic would work.

Your post implied to me that dnd didn't have anything in it that would provoke cerebral stimulation (this isn't that uncommon an opinion among WOD players either). I was correcting that because as someone who prefers DnD to WOD, it was slightly insulting.

I've been playing D&D for over twenty years, and world of darkness for about three. I am a magical unicorn, and not limited to being merely a D&D player or WoD player.

However, D&D does not have gnostic principles built into it's metagame. It is very hard to pick up and read a D&D book and miss the point. Different tools for different situations, and all.

Do you agree then, that it is perfectly possible for a mage to not know about thousands of years of history declaring the Abyss to be the Worst Possible Thing?

Nope.

1) anything to do with the abyss feels wrong. Not in a "maybe I'm just reacting weird" way but in a definite, you know in your soul this sucks way.
2) awakened society is a series of cults designed to either force you to join and accept their dogma, or let you die cold and alone in a world vaster than you can understand. You're either dead, or being indoctrinated.

Every branch, even the apostates, teach the abyss is terrible and always has been.

3) a newly awakened Mage is perfectly capable of encountering the abyss and using his powers to find out its history on the spot. That spell will return "always has been a bad thing" (unless it returns 404 reality not found).

[auote]
Your first sentance and second sentance seem to contradict themselves.[/quote]

Luckily, it's not just two sentences. The first gives a broad premise, the second and third temper it into form via rhetorical tension.

Also, in this part of your post you seem to be making statements without any backing. Unless you can find an authorial quote saying what you are saying, then you've got to show me evidence from the books to convince me. That was the point of this debate right?

I have no idea what the point of this debate is. I recall you asking for opinions and then saying "prove it! Page numbers and URLs or bust", honestly.

Wasn't it the ah Exarchs who let it in? Weren't they the ones who shattered the Ladder?

No! Actually. That's the fun part. The Exarchs took over and locked the gates. The diamond orders stormed the ladder and were held at the gates, and their assault broke the ladder. The throne was content to rule and just kick interlopers in the face until they stopped interloping. It was the hubris of the diamond insisting they too, had a right to the Supernal, which caused the abyss.

May I assume that you're mostly being poetic in this post? That is, you don't actually have quotes for the Abyss devouring a part of your soul everytime it grows bigger?

No, actually!
The abyss exists in every human soul. This is verifiable in game, and out (Mage core, Astral Journies, somewhere in Tome of the Watchtowers I think).
The abyss in your soul is not a symbolic manifestation or Jungian archetype. It's the actual, whole, complete and utter abyss.
If the abyss grows, and the whole thing is in your soul, the abyss literally overtakes more of your soul.

It's also called out in various snippets as part of why the pentacle is so damn careful. The throne nurtures the abyss as part of their duties to keep mankind down. If the pentacle flubs, they help their enemies ideology and directly damage their own, by damaging humanity.

The thing is, the Supernal is supposed to be paradise (even if a ruined one) and the Abyss is the thing in the way, much like in the Kabbalistic Judaism it's based on. Reversing that, where the Abyss is utopian and Supernal conflicts are the problem, is 100% at odds with that core idea of the gameline. Not that it's a bad idea or wrong, just that it's not going to be easy to reconcile with the default fluff.

Hmm. I recall bullet points both for and against this. I don't think it's supposed to be paradise as we understand it, but then again, who knows?

Alright, so I was looking through my copy of Intruders: Encouters with the Abyss and found this quote:



So canon pretty much rules out the Legion demonhunter idea. And while it does only talk about Intruders, it seems like splitting hairs to exclude places or ideas in the Abyss from this quote.

So yeah. canon proves me wrong on this one. However, if anyone is still interested I'd still enjoy debating on why I think the version of the Abyss I've been talking about is more interesting than the default as well as answering your posts above.

The version of the abyss you've been debating does exist, though. The quibble is whether it is Exception or Rule. And some weirdness with an infinitely possible number of Exceptions fictionally becoming the Rule, but eh.

My point has always been that declarative statements about how the abyss can be good and is misunderstood is what the abyss wants you to think. That doesn't belie it paradoxically being possible or true. I just reject the concept of it as a given.



There is also no distinction between "fluff" and "crunch" as such in WoD. That is a conceit of D&D and such games. The implication is that ultimately, fluff is unimportant and inferior. In WoD this is not true.

[Lady Serpentine]

There is also no distinction between "fluff" and "crunch" as such in WoD. That is a conceit of D&D and such games. The implication is that ultimately, fluff is unimportant and inferior. In WoD this is not true.

Mm. Not necessarily. The two are separate, and serve different purposes, they're just closely interwoven.

One could, for instance, rip the Glamour mechanics out of Changeling, stick them onto the rules for default humans in nWoD, with a few new powers, and use them to run a game about a bunch of people finding out they're empaths, set in an otherwise normal mortal world*, thereby using the crunch for something with completely different fluff.

On the other hand, one could take the entire fluff of Geist, write up completely different rules, and still tell much the same stories, thereby using the fluff for something with entirely differing crunch.

Neither one is inferior to the other, they just do different jobs; crunch makes sure the game works mechanically, while fluff ensures that the world the game runs in is internally self-consistent - or that if it isn't, there's a reason why - and each reinforces the other, the fluff by making sure that what you're doing with the crunch reinforces that doing it that way makes sense, and the crunch by making sure that what you're doing with the rules fits the tone of the game. (Of course, this assumes both do their jobs properly, which isn't always the case, but you get the point.)

*On another note, does anyone else want to play that now?

[SiuiS]

Notice you need to change the fluff to make that work though.

[Sith_Happens]

Notice you need to change the fluff to make that work though.

Which is in disagreement with anything C'Nor just said how?

[SiuiS]

If the idea is that the fluff and crunch are separate, and you can change one without hanging the other; then changing the rule should not require changing the fluff. But it does.

Typing this out I see how the components can be viewed a different way though, which is interesting. I'll have to think about whether my initial thought was the more accurate, or not. Thank you.

[Lady Serpentine]

If the idea is that the fluff and crunch are separate, and you can change one without hanging the other; then changing the rule should not require changing the fluff. But it does.

Typing this out I see how the components can be viewed a different way though, which is interesting. I'll have to think about whether my initial thought was the more accurate, or not. Thank you.

You're welcome.

And... Eh, sometimes that's true, sometimes it's not. Sure, if you want to, say, do a Changeling game that involves Kami being the ones to grant Contracts, you might end up having to make it so that talking to a Kami would be required to buy dots in one, and either entirely redo the Contract system to make it more like pledges or heavily rewrite some of the existing Contracts.

On the other hand, if one takes the same basic fluff for Synergy, the Geist Morality/Clarity/Humanity/You-get-the-picture-now (:P) stat, which is that it's how well you get along with the roommate you have in your head, you can steal Integrity and have it work just fine as long as you make sure to tailor the questions to the game and bear in mind that two different sets might be required for each player due to the fact that they're playing two characters who might, in theory, be radically different from each other - all of which might be necessary in a Mortals game; in fact, one could argue that works better, because not every Geist will feel the same way about the current list of infractions, to the point that some would, in fact, have opposite reactions.

[WitchSlayer]

I still think Demon: the Rise is a better title.

Run

[Water_Bear]

I'm sure this has been addressed before, but has anyone done a conversion of Harmony/Clarity/Wisdom/etc into the new Integrity format? I just downloaded the God Machine Rules Update and the first thing that I wondered was how that change would work with the game lines.

[SiuiS]

I'm sure this has been addressed before, but has anyone done a conversion of Harmony/Clarity/Wisdom/etc into the new Integrity format? I just downloaded the God Machine Rules Update and the first thing that I wondered was how that change would work with the game lines.

Probably taking a cue from the new Humanity rules.
I'd leave them be, mostly. The alternates already work pretty well. Just allow external influences to have an effect.

[Leliel]

Probably taking a cue from the new Humanity rules.
I'd leave them be, mostly. The alternates already work pretty well. Just allow external influences to have an effect.

Also, create a breaking point/sin quiz. Exchange the "what has your character forgotten" and such with something appropriate: "What was the most traumatic thing your character experience in their Durance" for Changeling, "What is the fear your character feels about magic" for Mage, and so forth.

Remember, the default idea is that if in doubt, do not roll. It's actually fairly forgiving, you probably want to roll only because more rolls means more XP.

[Water_Bear]

Probably taking a cue from the new Humanity rules.

Okay, I feel kind of dumb but I really can't find any Humanity update in my PDF. Can I get a page number?

[SiuiS]

Okay, I feel kind of dumb but I really can't find any Humanity update in my PDF. Can I get a page number?

Sorry, that's my fault. They released several blood & smoke play tests/previews, humanity amongst them. I thought I had said something about the source, but I seem to only have thought about it had enough to convince myself

DaveB on the white wolf forum also has his official unofficial Mage update rules.

[Water_Bear]

One more question;

Starting XP have been updated so that you can't lose Integrity to gain Experiences, and Seasoned/Expert/Heroic is 5/10/15 Experiences at start instead of the 35/75/100 in core. But while starting XP is lower, the ease of getting Beats and the lower prices across the board mean that characters will become a lot more powerful more quickly.

So how do you build villains? I've always used XP as a guideline, since I know roughly how much xp a Mage "mover and shaker" or an Ancient Vampire ought to have. But now I'm stuck; an NPC with 15 or 20 Experiences is barely more powerful than a starting PC and will be outclassed within a handful of sessions, but an NPC with 100+ Experiences might just be too strong. Do any STs out there have a solution, or did you just wing it?

[Leliel]

One more question;

Starting XP have been updated so that you can't lose Integrity to gain Experiences, and Seasoned/Expert/Heroic is 5/10/15 Experiences at start instead of the 35/75/100 in core. But while starting XP is lower, the ease of getting Beats and the lower prices across the board mean that characters will become a lot more powerful more quickly.

So how do you build villains? I've always used XP as a guideline, since I know roughly how much xp a Mage "mover and shaker" or an Ancient Vampire ought to have. But now I'm stuck; an NPC with 15 or 20 Experiences is barely more powerful than a starting PC and will be outclassed within a handful of sessions, but an NPC with 100+ Experiences might just be too strong. Do any STs out there have a solution, or did you just wing it?

Don't care, just give the stats you feel suit them?

Seriously, over at Something Awful, a dev said they aren't even pretending NPCs are statted like PCs anymore. It's just too much work for very little gain otherwise.

[SiuiS]

One more question;

Starting XP have been updated so that you can't lose Integrity to gain Experiences, and Seasoned/Expert/Heroic is 5/10/15 Experiences at start instead of the 35/75/100 in core. But while starting XP is lower, the ease of getting Beats and the lower prices across the board mean that characters will become a lot more powerful more quickly.

So how do you build villains? I've always used XP as a guideline, since I know roughly how much xp a Mage "mover and shaker" or an Ancient Vampire ought to have. But now I'm stuck; an NPC with 15 or 20 Experiences is barely more powerful than a starting PC and will be outclassed within a handful of sessions, but an NPC with 100+ Experiences might just be too strong. Do any STs out there have a solution, or did you just wing it?

"A normal person rolls 4 dice, a professional 6 dice, an expert 8 dice". That's all you need, along with some keywords and maybe specific things they suck/really excel at, and cool powers that are niche. Eyeball it.

Don't care, just give the stats you feel suit them?

Seriously, over at Something Awful, a dev said they aren't even pretending NPCs are statted like PCs anymore. It's just too much work for very little gain otherwise.

Cool. Can I get a name or quote?

[Leliel]

Cool. Can I get a name or quote?

Dave Brookshaw.

"Storyteller characters aren't built on the same point spreads as pcs and we've had enough of pretending otherwise. They don't get xp, either."

So yeah. You want to show an enemy getting stronger, hike up his stats at predetermined points.