General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[Aron Times]

Let's talk about the various splats and their eldritch horror antagonists post-God Machine. Let me see if I got this right:

1. Vampire - Strix
2. Werewolf - Maeljin? Idigam?
3. Mage - Abyssal Entities?
4. Changeling - True Fae
5. Promethean - Pandorans?
6. Hunter - Supernaturals in general.
7. Geist - Abmortals? Kerberoi?
8. Mummy - ???
9. Demon - Angels?

[Water_Bear]

Let's talk about the various splats and their eldritch horror antagonists post-God Machine. Let me see if I got this right:

1. Vampire - Strix
2. Werewolf - Maeljin? Idigam?
3. Mage - Abyssal Entities?
4. Changeling - True Fae
5. Promethean - Pandorans?
6. Hunter - Supernaturals in general.
7. Geist - Abmortals? Kerberoi?
8. Mummy - ???
9. Demon - Angels?

Good, but I'd say Qashmallim/Lilithim for Prometheans and Amkata for Mummies would make more sense.

Although to be honest, the vibe I've gotten from the Demon and Vampire stuff they've released is less fighting invincible cosmic enemies than your standard struggle with inner darkness kind of thing. The new Humanity and Cover both really lean heavily on the "you're not really a person" angle, with a sense of either being able to go Pinocchio or fully embrace inhumanity and become a monster. Especially since the last splats before the big shift, Mummy and Promethean, both have a similar idea it makes sense if that was the new direction post-God Machine.

[JAnderson789]

Good, but I'd say Qashmallim/Lilithim for Prometheans and Amkata for Mummies would make more sense.

Although to be honest, the vibe I've gotten from the Demon and Vampire stuff they've released is less fighting invincible cosmic enemies than your standard struggle with inner darkness kind of thing. The new Humanity and Cover both really lean heavily on the "you're not really a person" angle, with a sense of either being able to go Pinocchio or fully embrace inhumanity and become a monster. Especially since the last splats before the big shift, Mummy and Promethean, both have a similar idea it makes sense if that was the new direction post-God Machine.

Again, this is something that really turns me off of the new rules. Vampires are popular as characters in popular culture because of their moral struggle between their desire for companionship and their desire to eat people. B&S outright tells you that the conflict is pointless and there's no point in trying because you're already a soulless monster, and then the writers have the audacity to claim vampirism isn't an inherently evil condition despite being evil by any conventional sense of morality since vampires must eat sapient beings to survive. In popular fiction, "good" vampires are those who try to resist this state of affairs, though B&S seems to be pushing characters to act like monsters.

If anyone genuinely believes the spiel about the Beast not being evil, then I'd expect them to be the first to line up to be eaten, hypothetically speaking. If vampires eating humans is no more morally wrong than humans eating cattle, then why shouldn't those people who believe so be the first to be eaten as a means of testing their convictions?

Notice how ridiculous the argument sounds? Not a single one of the people arguing vampirism isn't evil would actually volunteer to become food, because the argument is nonsensical. Eating people is always wrong.

[Leliel]

Again, this is something that really turns me off of the new rules. Vampires are popular as characters in popular culture because of their moral struggle between their desire for companionship and their desire to eat people. B&S outright tells you that the conflict is pointless and there's no point in trying because you're already a soulless monster, and then the writers have the audacity to claim vampirism isn't an inherently evil condition despite being evil by any conventional sense of morality since vampires must eat sapient beings to survive. In popular fiction, "good" vampires are those who try to resist this state of affairs, though B&S seems to be pushing characters to act like monsters.

Popular fiction also includes the Twilight Saga. I don't think Requiem vamps should be like that at all.

Yes, the Beast is largely what humans describe as evil-it's a man-eating predator that's perfectly at peace with that. The Kindred are not the Beast, and even the Circle of the Crone does not wish to be the Beast-it wants to find a place in the natural order of things and serve as conscientious predators of man who do not overbreed and despoil the environment-something the Beast does, since like any wild animal, it does not care about long-term effects, only its next meal.

Thing is, J? You don't seem to realize that for a Curse to deserve the term, it has to suck in some way. For Arisen, it's their amnesia and inability to set their own goals. For vampires, it's the Beast and its hungers. Finding a way to restrain it now has more meaning, since it's so much harder now.

There's a reason Lost don't referred to their condition as cursed. Or werewolves. Or mages. It's because they had a fair trade-for the Lost, it's the freedom and sanity they got, for werewovles it's raw power and a purpose in life, for mages it's...everything, really. Mages are lucky bastards for more reasons than having Fate.

Vampires, Prometheans, and Arisen? Nope. There is a fundamental problem to their condition that cannot be solved, only suppressed or occasionally circumvented. That, my friends, is the Curse-you cannot avoid it, you cannot defeat it. You just have to (un)live with it.

It's interesting that the Stereotypes section includes the Prometheans. I wonder if there's a reason for it. Or maybe the stereotypes will include all splats, but the other minor ones haven't made it into the draft yet.

Word of God says that each Incarnation has something to say on one of the limited game lines, excepting Changeling, since it's hard for a single group of Unchained to come to a single general opinion on them.

[Leliel]

Let's talk about the various splats and their eldritch horror antagonists post-God Machine. Let me see if I got this right:

1. Vampire - Strix
2. Werewolf - Maeljin? Idigam?
3. Mage - Abyssal Entities?
4. Changeling - True Fae
5. Promethean - Pandorans?
6. Hunter - Supernaturals in general.
7. Geist - Abmortals? Kerberoi?
8. Mummy - ???
9. Demon - Angels?

For fun:

Werewolves have the Idigam. Maeljin are far more human than even most other spirits, and they're really examples of what happens when werewolves don't do their jobs and the Shadow gets really out of wack.

Mages: Yep. The Abyss is, conceptually, the mystery with no answer, the Other. That's pretty eldritch.

Prometheans: Hostile qashmallim, more like.

Geist: Kerberoi. Abmortals are normal humans with a rather macabre supernatural ability who have put themselves ahead of their fellows.

Mummy: You work for them! Barring that, the Shuankshen-they're human (possibly the most human things in the game), but their boss is not.

Demon: Archangels (those of Rank 6 and up) and whatever happens when the God-Machine tells them to rebel. Word of God says they're in a class of their own, and the Butcher (playtest antagonist) is an example.

[JAnderson789]

Thing is, J? You don't seem to realize that for a Curse to deserve the term, it has to suck in some way. For Arisen, it's their amnesia and inability to set their own goals. For vampires, it's the Beast and its hungers. Finding a way to restrain it now has more meaning, since it's so much harder now.

Not particularly, no. Aside from a couple new breaking points that will rarely, if ever, come up in play and then only in passing, the Humanity rules are largely the same. I don't understand what you're trying to say: vampires are cursed, you're preaching to the choir here.

My problem is not with the rules, but with the writers trying to claim that vampirism isn't an evil condition and that vampires are not really people, despite the rules that they wrote contradicting that statement. Vampires ARE people, people laboring under a curse that forces them to drink human blood, and vampire "heroes" are heroic because they refuse to willingly give into their darker nature no matter how tempting it is. There is always the faint hope that they could overcome or cure their condition to keep them going.

A vampire with low humanity can never be a paragon of moral virtue, because they are unable to empathize with humans or understand why hurting people is wrong (if you listen to testimonials concerning real life sociopaths, you'll notice that they commonly see no problem with doing things like setting people on fire out of spite, even if they're otherwise gifted at manipulating other people's emotions). The lower a vampire's humanity, the more of a sociopath they are. The rules state this unambiguously, but the writers continually state the opposite.

Then we have people arguing that high Humanity does not equate to being a morally upright person, at which point I've decided to just ditch Humanity entirely and use Conscience from Mirrors because it is simple and unambiguous and doesn't invite arguments over semantics.

When I say "pushing character to act like monsters," I refer to things like the new nature/demeanor rules that reward characters for acting like monsters. Humanity doesn't force any behavior unless it inflicts an annoying bane.

[Water_Bear]

@JAnderson789

It seems like you're applying a conception of objective morality to a system which is based on the idea that morality is subjective. God Machine, and the new splats based on comments in the previews, are very much morally relativist systems; Integrity is about your sanity in the face of stressful situations or cognitive dissonance, Humanity is about how much you relate to the species you once belonged to, and Demons aren't portrayed positively just because they're opposing the (antagonistic to humanity) God Machine.

Vampires aren't evil because they're good, they aren't evil because evil is a pejorative with little to no descriptive value.

[Aron Times]

Speaking of moral relativism, he post-God Machine Chronicle nWoD is not a world torn between Good and Evil, but rather Order and Chaos. Sometimes, the God Machine seems merciless, using humans as nothing more than pawns in its vast, inscrutable plans. On the other hand, when everything goes to hell (literally or figuratively), the God Machine sends its angels to fix the problem, or to be specific, the God Machine sends its angels to nudge the party into solving the problem.

This is one of the possible endings to the God Machine Chronicle. Open at your own risk!

Spoiler

Show

The party is given the power to decide between Heaven on Earth or Hell on Earth by either opening the Gates of Heaven and locking the Gates of Hell, or vice-versa. Heaven is described as a perfectly orderly universe where there is no pain and suffering, but there is also no pleasure and free will. Hell is described as being the exact opposite, a world where nothing is permanent and the heights of pain and pleasure and happiness and sorrow and free will go to the extremes.

Of course, the party can Take a Third Option, and lock both Gates (this is what the example party in one in the related short story does). This results in the God Machine and its Angels as well as Demons being permanently cut off from the world, and humanity is free to forge its own destiny. Basically, the World of Darkness becomes the normal world, with no more supernatural influence.

What gate?

Ultimately, it's up to the Storyteller to determine if the God Machine is a Big Good or a Big Bad, or both. Personally, I'm leaning towards Big Good with an emphasis on Good is Not Nice.

[Longes]

Spoiler

Show

The party is given the power to decide between Heaven on Earth or Hell on Earth by either opening the Gates of Heaven and locking the Gates of Hell, or vice-versa. Heaven is described as a perfectly orderly universe where there is no pain and suffering, but there is also no pleasure and free will. Hell is described as being the exact opposite, a world where nothing is permanent and the heights of pain and pleasure and happiness and sorrow and free will go to the extremes.

Of course, the party can Take a Third Option, and lock both Gates (this is what the example party in one in the related short story does). This results in the God Machine and its Angels as well as Demons being permanently cut off from the world, and humanity is free to forge its own destiny. Basically, the World of Darkness becomes the normal world, with no more supernatural influence.

What gate?

O hai, Shin Megami Tensei! Didn't see you there.

EDIT: I've just read the prologue story of the GMC, where rumors on the internet become reality. Just... Like... Persona 2!!!11 What a twist!

[SiuiS]

Not particularly, no. Aside from a couple new breaking points that will rarely, if ever, come up in play and then only in passing, the Humanity rules are largely the same. I don't understand what you're trying to say: vampires are cursed, you're preaching to the choir here.

My problem is not with the rules, but with the writers trying to claim that vampirism isn't an evil condition and that vampires are not really people, despite the rules that they wrote contradicting that statement. Vampires ARE people, people laboring under a curse that forces them to drink human blood, and vampire "heroes" are heroic because they refuse to willingly give into their darker nature no matter how tempting it is. There is always the faint hope that they could overcome or cure their condition to keep them going.

A vampire with low humanity can never be a paragon of moral virtue, because they are unable to empathize with humans or understand why hurting people is wrong (if you listen to testimonials concerning real life sociopaths, you'll notice that they commonly see no problem with doing things like setting people on fire out of spite, even if they're otherwise gifted at manipulating other people's emotions). The lower a vampire's humanity, the more of a sociopath they are. The rules state this unambiguously, but the writers continually state the opposite.

Then we have people arguing that high Humanity does not equate to being a morally upright person, at which point I've decided to just ditch Humanity entirely and use Conscience from Mirrors because it is simple and unambiguous and doesn't invite arguments over semantics.

When I say "pushing character to act like monsters," I refer to things like the new nature/demeanor rules that reward characters for acting like monsters. Humanity doesn't force any behavior unless it inflicts an annoying bane.

It seems to me that it's pointing out that from a purely vampire point of view, they aren't evil. Sure, by human standards they are, but that's different. It's about who sets the scale.

Speaking of moral relativism, he post-God Machine Chronicle nWoD is not a world torn between Good and Evil, but rather Order and Chaos. Sometimes, the God Machine seems merciless, using humans as nothing more than pawns in its vast, inscrutable plans. On the other hand, when everything goes to hell (literally or figuratively), the God Machine sends its angels to fix the problem, or to be specific, the God Machine sends its angels to nudge the party into solving the problem.

This is one of the possible endings to the God Machine Chronicle. Open at your own risk!

Spoiler

Show

The party is given the power to decide between Heaven on Earth or Hell on Earth by either opening the Gates of Heaven and locking the Gates of Hell, or vice-versa. Heaven is described as a perfectly orderly universe where there is no pain and suffering, but there is also no pleasure and free will. Hell is described as being the exact opposite, a world where nothing is permanent and the heights of pain and pleasure and happiness and sorrow and free will go to the extremes.

Of course, the party can Take a Third Option, and lock both Gates (this is what the example party in one in the related short story does). This results in the God Machine and its Angels as well as Demons being permanently cut off from the world, and humanity is free to forge its own destiny. Basically, the World of Darkness becomes the normal world, with no more supernatural influence.

What gate?

Ultimately, it's up to the Storyteller to determine if the God Machine is a Big Good or a Big Bad, or both. Personally, I'm leaning towards Big Good with an emphasis on Good is Not Nice.

Huh. There's a The God Machine Chronicle now? I thought it was all ideas, plot hooks, etc. and not a story/campaign book.

Also, "no free will, no pain" is heaven? Because that abounds like the choices are Hell, and a differently themed Hell.

O hai, Shin Megami Tensei! Didn't see you there.

EDIT: I've just read the prologue story of the GMC, where rumors on the internet become reality. Just... Like... Persona 2!!!11 What a twist!

But now you have a system to play them in!

[Lady Serpentine]

Either way, this is why I dislike Humanity, Morality, etc., and prefer things like Clarity and Integrity. Any time they try focus on morals instead of how well your mind holds together, they get far too focused on a specific method of play (an issue for Geist as well, as Synergy assumes all Geists will have issues with the same things.)

Even with new Humanity, it gets too focused on 'doing these things reminds you of what you aren't', without stopping to consider that, for instance, walking in sunlight, which heavily weakens you and is directly damaging, just to maintain your human connections, is an intensely human thing to do; you're refusing to give up on your life and doing your absolute best to not become a monster.

[Aron Times]

Huh. There's a The God Machine Chronicle now? I thought it was all ideas, plot hooks, etc. and not a story/campaign book.

Yes. I bought the PDF and hardcover bundle from DriveThruRPG. I've read most of the PDF, and it's a very interesting read. If you have no plans of STing, I recommend that you avoid reading it and just download the God Machine Rules Update instead, which is the rulebook minus the ST-only stuff.

In fact, I'm recruiting players for a game on this site.

[Longes]

Either way, this is why I dislike Humanity, Morality, etc., and prefer things like Clarity and Integrity. Any time they try focus on morals instead of how well your mind holds together, they get far too focused on a specific method of play (an issue for Geist as well, as Synergy assumes all Geists will have issues with the same things.)

Even with new Humanity, it gets too focused on 'doing these things reminds you of what you aren't', without stopping to consider that, for instance, walking in sunlight, which heavily weakens you and is directly damaging, just to maintain your human connections, is an intensely human thing to do; you're refusing to give up on your life and doing your absolute best to not become a monster.

But the problem is that by walking in the sunlight you are provoking the Beast to take over. Walking in the zoo to remember your connection with nature is one thing, shoving your head into the tiger's cage is another.

Yes. I bought the PDF and hardcover bundle from DriveThruRPG. I've read most of the PDF, and it's a very interesting read. If you have no plans of STing, I recommend that you avoid reading it and just download the God Machine Rules Update instead, which is the rulebook minus the ST-only stuff.

Joseph, I think that was a sarcastic statement about lack of unified "God-Machine Chronicle" - the book is just a number of the campaign ideas (which makes my metaplot sense tingling, and I don't like that)

[Lady Serpentine]

But the problem is that by walking in the sunlight you are provoking the Beast to take over. Walking in the zoo to remember your connection with nature is one thing, shoving your head into the tiger's cage is another.

Source, please? (Last time I brought this up, nothing was said about that, just 'yeah, well, that's not a valid way to play because you still aren't and it would remind you of that', and I'd have thought someone would have said something along those lines...)

...Also, wait, doesn't it sleep during the day? Shouldn't being in the sun make it even more reluctant to come out?

[Longes]

Source, please? (Last time I brought this up, nothing was said about that, just 'yeah, well, that's not a valid way to play because you still aren't and it would remind you of that', and I'd have thought someone would have said something along those lines...)

...Also, wait, doesn't it sleep during the day? Shouldn't being in the sun make it even more reluctant to come out?

Sunlight provokes Rötschreck. Rötschreck, as any other frenzy state, is when you are overtaken by the Beast. p. 178

[Lady Serpentine]

Sunlight provokes Rötschreck. Rötschreck, as any other frenzy state, is when you are overtaken by the Beast. p. 178

Alright, thanks.

...Not sure why no-one brought up that you end up with that clawing at your head when you do this last time, but bleh, whatever. That does make more sense now.

[Mr.Bookworm]

If anyone hasn't heard, there's a new Hunter book in development called Monstrous Bastards.

A list of the section titles (which may change) and writers was posted up by someone; it's pretty obviously a book about the limited gamelines.

Open Doors, Closed Hearts - Monica Valentinelli
Mad Science - Matthew McFarland
Lost & Found - Jess Hartley
Eaters of the Dead - Jason Needham
This Place is Cursed - Adam Tinworth
To Hell & Back - Rose Bailey
Creepy Capability - David Hill

Now they just need to take all of my money.

[Eurus]

Huh. There's a The God Machine Chronicle now? I thought it was all ideas, plot hooks, etc. and not a story/campaign book.

Also, "no free will, no pain" is heaven? Because that abounds like the choices are Hell, and a differently themed Hell.

Well that's rather the point, I think. If a rather bluntly handled one.

[Morty]

If anyone hasn't heard, there's a new Hunter book in development called Monstrous Bastards.

A list of the section titles (which may change) and writers was posted up by someone; it's pretty obviously a book about the limited gamelines.



Now they just need to take all of my money.

Those news make me positively giddy.

[Leliel]

Well that's rather the point, I think. If a rather bluntly handled one.

Quite. Seems to me the Celebrants have a far more Heavenly ideal then the Hell they lord over, since at least it has rulers you can emphasize with. It still wouldn't be paradise, but at least no pain is permanent.

The nWoD, as presented by GMC, is an immensely amoral universe. It ain't out to get you, but it certainly won't help you. Rose Bailey, a dev for Demon, has stated that the God-Machine's primary goal is to maintain the status quo. That sounds bad for the WoD, except the status quo also includes a few, rare true heroes and things worth fighting for. Disrupting its plans may result in a modern day version of Warhammer 40k or fantasy, whichever is worse.

[Lord Haart]

the God-Machine's primary goal is to maintain the status quo. That sounds bad for the WoD

I don't really know a first thing about the new WoD, but isn't it WoD's core property that whenever status quo is as much as touched with five-years-old's finger, everything rolls straight down to Hell and drops through the floor?

[Leliel]

I don't really know a first thing about the new WoD, but isn't it WoD's core property that whenever status quo is as much as touched with five-years-old's finger, everything rolls straight down to Hell and drops through the floor?

Nope. Classic WoD.

New one's a lot more flexible and thus resilient.

[SiuiS]

Even with new Humanity, it gets too focused on 'doing these things reminds you of what you aren't', without stopping to consider that, for instance, walking in sunlight, which heavily weakens you and is directly damaging, just to maintain your human connections, is an intensely human thing to do; you're refusing to give up on your life and doing your absolute best to not become a monster.

I think that's kind of the point. Your oh so human sacrifice doesn't mean anything if its not a sacrifice. By heavily emphasizing how stupid it is, and how paltry the mechanical basis, it justifies faith in the action. It's laudable because it's punished and never rewarded.

Joseph, I think that was a sarcastic statement about lack of unified "God-Machine Chronicle" - the book is just a number of the campaign ideas (which makes my metaplot sense tingling, and I don't like that)

No, not sarcasm. I just didn't think the plot hooks were to be taken as quote that canonical. If they intercorrelate, that's a different matter.

Well that's rather the point, I think. If a rather bluntly handled one.

I like the idea that WoD stuff is so serious, it becomes absurd, and wraps back around to serious. The most interesting stuff is when the laughable mockery of, say, humanity comes from humans who are mocking it in hopes someone else will notice the flaws before its too late.

[Lady Serpentine]

I think that's kind of the point. Your oh so human sacrifice doesn't mean anything if its not a sacrifice. By heavily emphasizing how stupid it is, and how paltry the mechanical basis, it justifies faith in the action. It's laudable because it's punished and never rewarded.

...Yes. Because making you less human for a physically inhuman, but mentally human, action makes sooooo much sense.

[Leliel]

...Yes. Because making you less human for a physically inhuman, but mentally human, action makes sooooo much sense.

And the physically inhuman reaction reminds you in BIG FLAMING LETTERS that you aren't, and never will be again.

Your point is?

[SiuiS]

...Yes. Because making you less human for a physically inhuman, but mentally human, action makes sooooo much sense.

It's accurate though.

A druggie who's been so low they've basically been living as an animal (or someone 'not human') will experience reactions and reflexes which only serve to drive home the deep disparity between themselves and a functional human being. that is a good thing. Cpfnitive dissonance is required. Narratively, the guy who gets chomped and continues bein Freddy, the socialite of the office who always pays his credit card bills on time* is a terrible character unless you're playing it for contrast or irony. If something happens, something that basically proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is not human, that's not important. That's a roll of the dice, ho-hum. How he reacts to that, the stresses and triumphs as he comes to terms with something existentially crushing, that's a story – and the point of the storyteller system.

And there's the argument that, well, it's clear in black and white that this isn't a thin you can change so why bother, right?
Except its clear that humans exist to put gonads together, murder their rivals and spread their genes; live in tribes, and violently oppose others. But you're still striving against that, right? The point of humanity from a metaphysical perspective is transcendence. Transcendence is hard. It's literally impossible! But you've still got a rich tapestry of stories of success, dramatic failure and segues peppering history. That's all this is; becoming more is hard. Buying into the difference and giving up the goal is easy. Perseverance is ultimately rewarded but not by the rules; there is no "I tried hard enough, where's my happy ending?", there is no putting in your time and getting your pay, tere is a long hard slog repeatedly mocked as fruitless. It's your call if it matters enough to pursue, though. Not the rules.



* Who is also a vampire.

[Longes]

Is it me, or is "Dr. Henri Girard" from the God-Machine is a Captain Jack Harkness? Both in portrait and character.

[josienoms]

Would anyone be willing to ST a play-by-post game of Mummy? If so, I have a recruitment thread going on here. I'd really appreciate it!

[JAnderson789]

@JAnderson789

It seems like you're applying a conception of objective morality to a system which is based on the idea that morality is subjective. God Machine, and the new splats based on comments in the previews, are very much morally relativist systems; Integrity is about your sanity in the face of stressful situations or cognitive dissonance, Humanity is about how much you relate to the species you once belonged to, and Demons aren't portrayed positively just because they're opposing the (antagonistic to humanity) God Machine.

Vampires aren't evil because they're good, they aren't evil because evil is a pejorative with little to no descriptive value.

Subjective morality is a childish fantasy used by people who don't understand the implications it would have on society. Objective morality is a very real thing. I'm pretty sure most people can agree that murder, theft (out of greed, not stealing food to feed a starving family) and rape are always wrong. That's reason we have a legal system rather than letting people do whatever they want.

At it's most basic, "good" is simply "whatever feels enjoyable." People who are considered "evil" are such because they definition of "good" is "harming other people." Those kinds of people are considered mentally ill in modern society: we call them sociopaths.

Assuming you believe subjective morality is true, do you believe that is a perfectly just for a widow to be put to death simply for being a widow? Because in pre-colonial Indian culture, they forced widows to lie on their husband's funeral pyres regardless of their own wishes (and I'm pretty sure most of them didn't want to burn to death).

Hunting humans for food is evil by virtually every system of morality on the planet. The few times it isn't considered evil is because it is generally a sign of respect for warriors you killed in combat (by eating them you gain their power, and you only eat them if they actually have power) or as a form of grieving for dead loved ones (yes, in some cultures people eat their relatives after they die as a form of grieving).

It doesn't matter if vampires are forced by external circumstances to feed on human beings. It's no different than being forced at gunpoint to commit crimes. I can understand attempting to feed conservatively without killing anyone, you're trying to continue your unholy existence because you're too afraid to kill yourself but don't want to harm other people as much as possible.

But the idea that a low-humanity vampire can be "moral" does not make any sense. By definition, low-humanity vampires are sociopaths and don't see any problem with killing human beings when convenient if they haven't degenerated to the point of active sadism (the Humanity rules in the quickstart actually state low-humanity vampires are actively sadistic at certain levels). That is evil.

EDIT: Ignoring Twilight, the vampire is not a pop culture hero because it represents a power fantasy where one gains power from hunting and killing other human beings or is somehow "sexy": the vampire is a pop culture hero because it represents a moral struggle between base urges and the desire for friendship and love.

[Water_Bear]

I'm not going to address the subjective / objective issue; it goes into iffy territory and I don't need the wrath of the mods right now. Suffice it to say that White Wolf takes a position opposite to yours and that I have no real investment in the question one way or another.

As for the vampires though, you're missing the point a bit. Even in Brahm Stoker's time, vampire stories like Camilla were popular not because of any idea that the vampire could be redeemed but that they were a temptation. Beauty (or at the very least sexual magnetism), power, immortality, wealth; the vampire represents a choice to obtain what we want at the cost of other people. In Victorian times we flirted with vampires but ultimately destroyed them; in modern times they are heroes and so we desperately search for ways to make the monster seem more sympathetic. The power fantasy has always been front and center, the question is really how we approach power.