General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[golentan]

Another problem with chapters 1 and 2 is that they make it impossible to play a high compassion infernal without the compassion warping charms. The mandatory opening ceremony of the Thing Infernal triggers almost every keyword in the compassion description. The leadership itself is so intrusively abusive that an infernal (even one who doesn't spend the opening of the Thing vomiting in horrified revulsion) is likely to be reconsidering whether they made the right decision before they've even finished being initiated as a green sun prince.

It's one thing for Infernals to be the Supervillain splat. But there are limits to the characterization the fluff should impose on exalted characters, and infernals 1 and 2 pushed that.

[omegalith]

...Adorjan is an abusive, passive-aggressive psychopath?

Hurts what she loves, spares what she hates? It's not the same as Kimbery's abusive mother act, but there's common ground.

Outside of the Yozi conspirators, there's also Isidoros, who is best described as Sealed Power in a Can, and Sacheverell, who everyone besides himself (and I mean everyone) wants dead or at least asleep, because he's so damn scary.

Sacheverell only got that way because of Fetich death. Between him and the Neverborn, it's pretty clear that killing and maiming Primordials seems to cause at least as many, if not more problems than it solves.

Isidoros doesn't seem all that bad really, he's just an unstoppable force of nature who loves freedom to a somewhat excessive degree.

[omegalith]

Another problem with chapters 1 and 2 is that they make it impossible to play a high compassion infernal without the compassion warping charms. The mandatory opening ceremony of the Thing Infernal triggers almost every keyword in the compassion description. The leadership itself is so intrusively abusive that an infernal (even one who doesn't spend the opening of the Thing vomiting in horrified revulsion) is likely to be reconsidering whether they made the right decision before they've even finished being initiated as a green sun prince.

It's one thing for Infernals to be the Supervillain splat. But there are limits to the characterization the fluff should impose on exalted characters, and infernals 1 and 2 pushed that.

Yeah, as I said the problem with the portrayal is that it sells the Yozis as so objectively terrible that they'd find it almost impossible to convince anyone other than an Akuma-fied cultist to help them after personally interacting with them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hurts what she loves, spares what she hates? It's not the same as Kimbery's abusive mother act, but there's common ground.

...What? If it bleeds and there's very little noise, Adorjan kills it. The only ones not subject to this are her siblings. Adorjan doesn't spare anyone, doesn't hate anyone, and is completely insane.

Sacheverell only got that way because of Fetich death. Between him and the Neverborn, it's pretty clear that killing and maiming Primordials seems to cause at least as many, if not more problems than it solves.

Yeah I know. But what's done is done. Putting the Yozis in charge would be very, very bad.

[Tavar]

Sacheverell only got that way because of Fetich death. Between him and the Neverborn, it's pretty clear that killing and maiming Primordials seems to cause at least as many, if not more problems than it solves.

Isidoros doesn't seem all that bad really, he's just an unstoppable force of nature who loves freedom to a somewhat excessive degree.

Let's say that I love freedom to a large degree. And, in being free, I kill thousands. Am I such a Nice guy? Keep in mind that neither he nor Kimbery suffered feitch death, so their personality now is much the same.

And, a better way of putting it would be that they only trade old problems for new ones.

Finally, what history of the world are you looking at? They Created the Gods to be a sapient Slave race, because it was simpler than making an automated method of keeping Creation under control. They new they had opinions, they just didn't care, and they still don't. I don't think the Exalted have clear moral authority, but the Yozi don't have any leg to stand on.

[omegalith]

Let's say that I love freedom to a large degree. And, in being free, I kill thousands. Am I such a Nice guy? Keep in mind that neither he nor Kimbery suffered feitch death, so their personality now is much the same.

I didn't claim he was a nice guy, just not all that bad. He's pretty much what the Yozis should be portrayed as: Dangerous, concerned only with his principle to the exclusion of all else, but not actively malevolent.

As for Kimbery: I'm reasonably sure Cecelyne and She Who Lives in Her Name didn't Fetich die either, Their shifts are all from losing minor parts of themselves, having themselves proved wrong and raw bitterness.

And, a better way of putting it would be that they only trade old problems for new ones.

Worse ones really: Two "90% of creation is destroyed" events means that only 1% is left.

Finally, what history of the world are you looking at? They Created the Gods to be a sapient Slave race, because it was simpler than making an automated method of keeping Creation under control. They new they had opinions, they just didn't care, and they still don't.

There's a difference between knowing something is self-aware and considering it's opinion valid. "I made you, why are you complaining? Get back to work."

I don't think the Exalted have clear moral authority, but the Yozi don't have any leg to stand on.

The Exalted are frankly incidental pawns, the war was between the god's agenda and the Primordial agenda, and the Exalted sided with the gods due to being given immense power and freedom from their Dragon King oppressors. The Exalted didn't do much wrong, but neither did they have a lot of agency until the First Age started.

Given that the Incarnae did a huge amount of damage to Creation by provoking the war then hid away and let it gradually slide into it's current state, their legs are also pretty wobbly.

[Plague of Hats]

The whole "humans were mud-eating nobodies who only ever, ever, ever mattered in any way at all because they got Exaltation" is pretty much along the lines of "Humans can't be cool. How do they attract Exaltations, which are drawn to coolness?" Which is something we're kind of trying to move away from!

Aside from Rapes Fall, Everybody Dies problem, I think a more telling problem is that the bulk of Manual of Exalted Power—Infernals, which as the title suggests should be about the Infernal Exalted, is actually just about the Yozis.

[Xefas]

Rapes Fall, Everybody Dies

Can this be the 3rd edition version of the Magma Kraken spell?

(By which I mean, the straightforward Celestial-tier large-AoE damage blasty-spell.)

[TheCountAlucard]

I think Hats hit the nail pretty hard on the head there; the Yozis were the focus of too much of the book. Regarding the opening bits, I pretty much had to flat-out tell my Infernals players, "Don't read the first two chapters. In fact, just sit down with me sometime, and we can talk your concept out."

The ST I'd had previously was so jaded by Manual: Infernals that I was never able to shake him out of the paradigm; subsequently, in the game he ran, the Infernals were the lock-step lackeys of the Primordials, and his Green Sun Princes and akuma were nigh-interchangeable.

[Tavar]

Can this be the 3rd edition version of the Magma Kraken spell?

(By which I mean, the straightforward Celestial-tier large-AoE damage blasty-spell.)

Of course not.

Magma Kraken comes up from below, not down from above.

But From Below just doesn't have the same ring, does it?

[omegalith]

The whole "humans were mud-eating nobodies who only ever, ever, ever mattered in any way at all because they got Exaltation" is pretty much along the lines of "Humans can't be cool. How do they attract Exaltations, which are drawn to coolness?" Which is something we're kind of trying to move away from!

Not really: Exaltations are explicitly drawn by the seeds of greatness that they don't have the power to actually apply. Even in the modern age, a vast percentage of humanity is either slaves or oppressed serfs, and in the areas with a heavy Exalted presence the only ones who really matter are those with family connections or god blood.

Badassery has nothing to do with power or position, it's all action and attitude. A guy who charges his Dragon King slavemaster with an improvised weapon? Dawn. A guy who rallies his fellow slaves to go on strike? Zenith. If he instead manages to slip out of his cage and survive in the cities back alleys for months, trying to find an opportunity to break some of his fellow slaves out? Either Night or some form of Lunar.

Aside from Rapes Fall, Everybody Dies problem, I think a more telling problem is that the bulk of Manual of Exalted Power—Infernals, which as the title suggests should be about the Infernal Exalted, is actually just about the Yozis.

Well, they've only been around five years. It's the same reason Abyssals is mostly about the Deathlords and Neverborn.

[Amechra]

Yeah...

My opinion on the matter is that the Exalted Host should just kill both the Incarnae and the Primordials, and then...

Or, you know what?

Cecylene is Law Incarnate.
Swillin' is Hierarchy Incarnate.
Malfeas is Rulership Incarnate.

Fix them, and most of the problems with Creation go away.

Of course, just saying that you should "fix" them is not the same as doing it.

Still, punching out 3rd Circles while shouting "This is for your own good, I promise!" at the top of your lungs would be so much fun.

Seriously, though, how much do you think creation would change if, say, you modified Cecylene to be absolutely Just.

Screw Solars, any Infernal in her Caste would be the real Lawbringers!

Or if you modified Malfeas to believe that others matter...

As Above, So Below.

(Note: I know people will say "but you can't make the Yozis change like that!" All I'm going to say is...

SCREW THAT FOR A LARK! WE'RE TALKING EXALTED, WHERE YOU CAN PARRY NUKES WITH BUTTER KNIVES, AND CAN PUNCH OUT EVERYONE ON ASIA!

DO YOU THINK MERE IMPOSSIBILITY HAS EVER STOPPED AN EXALT?)

Remember, the only three immutable rules of Exalted are:

1. No time travel.
2. No coming back from the dead (as a non-Ghost)
3. You can't destroy an Exaltation.

Where on that list does it say "you can't fix the Yozis"?

[Lord Raziere]

Well….you could find whatever soul of Malfeas that makes him believe that he is the only thing that matters in the world…and destroy that soul. I don't exactly know if it will actually make him think that other people matter too, or if it'll just make him even more depressed and cause him to go "Nothing matters at all", but hey worth a try.

You could also kill whatever soul of Cecelyne that embodies her unfairness or something.

as well as whatever soul of She Who who advocates getting rid of free will.

might work. you'd have to searching through Malfeas and, probably deal with a bunch of demon politics and other such troubles along the way…but possible. I'd make them all third circles that aren't their fetiches, to keep it epic, perhaps destroy their subsidiary souls first to sort "ease" Malfeas into the transition, like you kill all seven second circles to make Malfeas like starting considering that he might not be only thing that matters, then when you kill the third circle, the shock will be lessened so that the transition will be smoother...

[omegalith]

Yeah, getting both the Yozis and the Neverborn a good psychiatrist is one of the most important steps in fixing the world properly.

The Yozis, to convince them that they need help and should voluntarily undergo a mixture of therapy and soul surgery. There are documented cases of Primordials willingly altering themselves of their own volition.

The Neverborn, to get them to just let go. The problem is their attachments to Creation, after all. Removing the attachment should be a viable alternative to removing Creation.

Then comes the tricky part: talking the Incarnae into opening a parole board. :P

[Amechra]

Nah, the Incarnae are a lost cause; they're all a bunch of druggies anyway.

You need to get rid of them being in charge, and use that The King Is Dead charm to promote someone actually competent, likeable, and appropriate to the position.

Though Seven Days Darkness becoming the Incarnae of the Sun would make me laugh so hard.

You know what else would help fix the setting by a lot?

Making Sol less of a glorious bastion of perfection.

Why? Stevie Dragon is mirroring him.

Now, what is the opposite of, say, Motivation: "Make the Best Quiche Ever"?

Seriously, we can rewrite motivations, can't we?

As for the Thing Infernal... I like Xefas' rewrite. It is full of happy things, and was so obviously designed as a propaganda piece by Stevie Dragon.

Oh, and by the way? One of the steps to "fixing the setting" is going to have to be "horrifically shred Stevie Dragon until he isn't him anymore. Because he is an ******* who screws everyone over, as his only purpose."

We already have opposition in the form of Szorezny, folks, and we don't need the Ebon Dragon.

In fact, it is best if we were to just kill him. And then get his Neverborn to let go.

Though he'd probably appreciate being left in eternal torment. Because he's like that.

[omegalith]

Nah, the Incarnae are a lost cause; they're all a bunch of druggies anyway.

Mostly because they have serious issues of their own.

Sol is a genuinely nice guy, it's just that he prioritizes divine concerns first (not necessarily a problem, he is king of the gods, and gods are people too) and has mental breakdowns when he can't reconcile his four perfect virtues. He retreats into the games because he struggles with the pressure his own nature puts him under.

The Maidens... There's some hinting that fate isn't strictly necessary, but it certainly helps troubleshoot glitches. The real issue is that the Sidereals are understaffed and perpetually bickering over opposing visions of how to fix the world. The Maidens don't seem to run a very tight ship, or even to give their opinions often enough.

Luna seems fine, actually. She can be in more than one place at a time, and thus can play the games and to something constructive at the same time.

You know what else would help fix the setting by a lot?

Making Sol less of a glorious bastion of perfection.

Why? Stevie Dragon is mirroring him.

That's the funny thing: He was designed to be something for ED to oppose, but ED didn't have a very good grasp of what he should be in the first place. Hence the headaches trying to reconcile the four components of his nature.

I'd say the issue is more with bashing the Dragon into a vague semblance of something positive than with killing the sun though... Unless you have Ligier on standby to pick up the slack.

Oh, and by the way? One of the steps to "fixing the setting" is going to have to be "horrifically shred Stevie Dragon until he isn't him anymore. Because he is an ******* who screws everyone over, as his only purpose."

We already have opposition in the form of Szorezny, folks, and we don't need the Ebon Dragon.

In fact, it is best if we were to just kill him. And then get his Neverborn to let go.

Though he'd probably appreciate being left in eternal torment. Because he's like that.

Yes, the Ebon Dragon would probably enjoy being a Neverborn... He'd be even more the antithesis of all things. Killing him probably isn't the way to go.

[Andreaz]

You know what else would help fix the setting by a lot?

Making Sol less of a glorious bastion of perfection.

Why? Stevie Dragon is mirroring him.

Now, what is the opposite of, say, Motivation: "Make the Best Quiche Ever"?

Those two things are not related at all. Sol's motivation is to protect creation.

[Amechra]

I know, but what if we rewrote his motivation?



Other than that... actually, making TED into a Neverborn would make him nearly harmless, especially since we could just give him the same psychologist as the rest of them...

Make the shrink a member of his Caste for extra lols.

[omegalith]

I know, but what if we rewrote his motivation?

Then it wouldn't effect the Dragon. His motivation is to create a world where everyone acts like him, screwing one another over and reveling in it.

That isn't the opposite of "Protect Creation".

Other than that... actually, making TED into a Neverborn would make him nearly harmless, especially since we could just give him the same psychologist as the rest of them...

Except he'd be a lot harder to convince, if he really does enjoy it.

[golentan]

I don't know that it would actually help, but I support turning TED into a neverborn on the grounds that that is the basis of it probably can't hurt combined with the cosmic principle of **** that guy.

What, he went out of his way to write "everything hates me and I hate everything" into the laws of the universe. I think it's only fair of us to carry his dream to its logical and permanent conclusion.

[omegalith]

cosmic principle of **** that guy

That's a pretty accurate description of what he is, funnily enough.

"I'm whatever you don't want me to be, baby."

[Amechra]

"I want you to be a massive jerk."

[omegalith]

"I want you to be a massive jerk."

"Reverse psychology? That's adorable."

*Dumps a bucket of acid over your head and flies off whooping like Zoidberg*

[Plague of Hats]

Not really: Exaltations are explicitly drawn by the seeds of greatness that they don't have the power to actually apply. Even in the modern age, a vast percentage of humanity is either slaves or oppressed serfs, and in the areas with a heavy Exalted presence the only ones who really matter are those with family connections or god blood.

I'm not really sure what iteration of "cool" you're operating on that precludes lots of humans being serfs. Though I'll grant that last bit is a nice demonstration of the attitude we'd like to avoid, where you can dismiss unExalted out-of-hand for being unExalted.

Badassery has nothing to do with power or position, it's all action and attitude. A guy who charges his Dragon King slavemaster with an improvised weapon? Dawn. A guy who rallies his fellow slaves to go on strike? Zenith. If he instead manages to slip out of his cage and survive in the cities back alleys for months, trying to find an opportunity to break some of his fellow slaves out? Either Night or some form of Lunar.

And these are all cool things you can do before you are touched by the perfection of the gods and allowed to cut mountains in half!

Well, they've only been around five years. It's the same reason Abyssals is mostly about the Deathlords and Neverborn.

Yet Manual: Abyssals still managed to focus on the Abyssal Exalted in a way that Manual: Infernals failed to do. In both cases, though, that's a pretty poor excuse for very poor writing.

[Amechra]

Nope, straightforward motivation and intimacy rewrites.

Make a lot of people love Ebon Dragon for being a massive douchebag.

I wonder how many people it would take before he starts helping old ladies cross the street out of spite?

[omegalith]

I'm not really sure what iteration of "cool" you're operating on that precludes lots of humans being serfs. Though I'll grant that last bit is a nice demonstration of the attitude we'd like to avoid, where you can dismiss unExalted out-of-hand for being unExalted.

I didn't say humans can't be cool, they just can't particularly matter.

It's not a bad thing that you can dismiss them: They have no power to operate on the scale everyone else does. Heck, most of the gods, demons and elementals have little control of their fate too, it's not an exclusively human problem even if they have the worst of it.

And these are all cool things you can do before you are touched by the perfection of the gods and allowed to cut mountains in half!

Right. But nothing that'll make even a low essence exalt so much as bat an eyelid at you if you try to oppose him.

You don't need to make humans not seem pathetic, because by setting standards they explicitly are. Anything they do is more impressive because it's in spite of the fact that they're in a poor situation.

Yet Manual: Abyssals still managed to focus on the Abyssal Exalted in a way that Manual: Infernals failed to do. In both cases, though, that's a pretty poor excuse for very poor writing.

The only real difference with Abyssals is that it points out in one or two places what options an Abyssal is able to pursue. In both cases, the five year timeline makes it nearly impossible for them to have any infrastructure developed as a faction in their own right beyond their masters initial intent.

This works better with Solars, as the entire point of them is that they've just started up in isolation and need to work out what they're going to do with their lives.

[omegalith]

Nope, straightforward motivation and intimacy rewrites.

Make a lot of people love Ebon Dragon for being a massive douchebag.

I wonder how many people it would take before he starts helping old ladies cross the street out of spite?

Here you need to make a distinction between his desire to do things people are opposed to, and any impulse he has to do things people are opposed to him specifically doing.

Frankly, if he can drown a city by making it's own sewers flood into the streets and everyone loves him for doing it, he's won. He can spread suffering everywhere and be treated like he's Santa. Nothing would make him happier.

[Rikandur Azebol]

He obviously can't, after becoming Ebon Dragon. As he was before ... maybe. But soul-surgery can do wonders and to be honest I can see such scenario as the best:

Cure Yozis and Neverborn of their addiction to Creation. Make the more mobile ones promise to not ever return ... and send them off into the Pure Chaos. Then Creation and Exalts can happily spend rest of their remaining time doing whatever, before Creation finally crumbles and nothing of it remains.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Then Creation and Exalts can happily spend rest of their remaining time doing whatever, before Creation finally crumbles and nothing of it remains.

That's what Devil Tigers are for. If something goes seriously wrong, they can just Akuma-fy someone, teach them a First (Yozi) Excellency and then (Yozi) Cosmic Principle.

BAM! You've got a Rehydrated Instant Primordial (just add boiling Essence) to fix ****. And they're better for the environment because you can send them off into the Wyld to catch up to the others, rather than just leave them hanging around in Malfeas.

[omegalith]

That's what Devil Tigers are for. If something goes seriously wrong, they can just Akuma-fy someone, teach them a First (Yozi) Excellency and then (Yozi) Cosmic Principle.

BAM! You've got a Rehydrated Instant Primordial (just add boiling Essence) to fix ****. And they're better for the environment because you can send them off into the Wyld to catch up to the others, rather than just leave them hanging around in Malfeas.

Given that Cosmic Principle doesn't automatically give you the rest of the charmset and strips away all other charms, that'd be a remarkably weak Yozi. It's really meant as the capstone ability once you've learned all the other charms.

A better plan is teaching someone your own cosmic principle, effectively making them your Jouten. Then you already have him on call for when something goes wrong.