OOTS #859 - The Discussion Thread

[Douglas]

(I skimmed forward...)

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but it is conceivable that Durkon has the Good cleric domain, which allows him to cast Good type spells (e.g. Holy Word) as a caster of one level higher.

Therefore, it is possible for Durkon to be, say, 14th level and affect a 15th level Tarquin.

Class and Level Geekery has had that listed as a practical certainty for a while now - it's the only way he could cast Holy Smite without a house rule.

[kierthos]

I wonder if Sabine was banished by the spell. She has to make a will save with a -4 penalty.

*nod* That's going to depend on a number of factors.

At a minimum, the DC for the save is 20. 10 (base) + 7 (spell level) + 3 (minimum wisdom modifier). And it could be several points higher, depending on what Durkon's actual Wisdom modifier is, and feats, other bonuses, and whatnot.

A bog standard succubus has a +7 Will save, and if Sabine only has rogue levels, well... with her +6 level adjustment, she probably doesn't have that many to stay within the same-ish ECL range of the rest of the Linear Guild (when they aren't teaming with Tarquin and Malack, that is.) But she might have bonuses from magic items, feats, and whatnot as well. But that -4 to the roll is going to hurt.

Mechanically, she's probably got at least a 75% chance of being banished (although that's subject to Rule of Plot), but she should be deafened and blinded at a minimum just off of HD comparisons, and she might be paralyzed too. (Again, that +6 level adjustment, mechanically, should factor into that, but once again, Rule of Plot applies.)

[Snails]

However, I doubt it will get through that door, since thick steel doesn't couple very well with air. That is, while steel will transmit sound very well, it doesn't pick up sound from air very well. Durkon would have to speak really loudly for it to get through. So Malack and Qarr will probably not be deafened or blinded.

There is an exception to this, which someone mentioned way up-thread. Outsiders will be banished even if they can't hear the Word. They just have to be within the 40ft distance. Malack and Qarr are clearly within that distance. I doubt Qarr will be banished, though. I suspect he has more things to do in the coming battle.

I do not agree with those interpretations, for the reason that that is not how it would usually be played out at the gaming table. A sliding door such as the one cutting off Malack would block all spells, just because a trap of that nature is usually more fun and more annoying. The very intention of the trap is to split an enemy party so that Clan Draketooth can mop up the more vulnerable half.

Not that OotS is compelled to follow such norms, just saying.

[Snails]

(Again, that +6 level adjustment, mechanically, should factor into that, but once again, Rule of Plot applies.)

Realistically Sabine is screwed.

But I would note that "+6 Level Adjustment" does not usually apply to NPCs in that manner. A bog standard Succubus has 6HD and is CR7. To be an appropriate main resource for Nale in significant battles against the OotS without being overpowering, her CR should 12ish.

11 or 12 HD, most likely?

That is still low enough to be on the ambiguous cusp of Paralyzed, assuming Durkon can defeat her Spell Resistance (likely, because I do not think her SR levels with her, by the usual rules).

Class and Level Geekery must be having fun with this comic!

[Mordae]

I do not agree with those interpretations, for the reason that that is not how it would usually be played out at the gaming table. A sliding door such as the one cutting off Malack would block all spells, just because a trap of that nature is usually more fun and more annoying. The very intention of the trap is to split an enemy party so that Clan Draketooth can mop up the more vulnerable half.

Not that OotS is compelled to follow such norms, just saying.

This, coupled with the Giant's upstream statement of not feeling compelled to extreme degrees of rule accuracy, leads me to believe those two will certainly not be affected.

[willpell]

It amazes me how much time we can spend arguing over whether a character was more likely to say "me too" or "Nor I," after we've already been shown the answer by the person who in fact invented the character.

Where, exactly?

[Xelbiuj]

Where, exactly?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html

First panel.
derp.

[oppyu]

From the evidence at hand, it seems that, in times where he cannot see and is under significant stress, Zz'dtri is more likely to say 'me too' instead of the grammatically correct but douchey sounding 'nor I'.

Fascinating, and definitely worth pages of argument.

[Ingus]

At the very end, holy word seems to me a very good choiche.
Most of the enemies deafened with no save (maybe some blinded too), being in an already darkened (and trap filled) area is a good enough debuff to really hurt.
Punch in the save or banish two of the members of the LG and a flatout to the mummies and I'm totally in

What I would do next: Elan vs Nale to stale, Belkar vs Kilkil for obvious reasons (even in universe his kobold killing skills are noticeable), Durkon vs "Thog" to buy time, Roy & Haley vs drow wizard to an easy kill; Sabine, Malak and quasit out of play.
From there on, dividi et impera.
This is, howeaver, anticlimatic, so I hope and expect more small duels

[willpell]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html

First panel.
derp.

I thought he meant The Giant had stated clearly that Zzditri was of a personality such that there was no possibility he could have said "Nor I" in such a situation. All the comic shows is that such a situation came up, and in that exact instance, he said "Me too"; this doesn't make a sweeping statement about his overall characterization. It could just have been an error on the Giant's part or a brainfart on Z's.

[oppyu]

If only we could test Zz'dtri by repeatedly placing him in that position. Then we could get a better understanding of which two words he would use to express the sentiment "Like you, I am incapable of visually discerning my surroundings at this point in time. I'm also visibly (in a manner of speaking) distressed at this turn of events." What would be his most common response? Inquiring minds need to know!

[Asis]

I think it is pretty obvious that Elan's father will act as if he were deaf in order to keep his charade. Now it's just a fight between his bluff vs everyone's elses' sense motive... seems like easy money for the big T.

[Nerd-o-rama]

...did Durkon just successfully Move Silently?

Although I guess without a dedicated scout, the Linear Guild doesn't have anyone with a respectable Listen check.

[Ingus]

By the way, usually Rich's drawings mean more than credited.
From the last panel it looks as Tarquin is the only one in a (anti)heroic-endurance-pose

[Douglas]

...did Durkon just successfully Move Silently?

Although I guess without a dedicated scout, the Linear Guild doesn't have anyone with a respectable Listen check.

No, he cheated with a spell.

[Bulldog Psion]

...did Durkon just successfully Move Silently?

Although I guess without a dedicated scout, the Linear Guild doesn't have anyone with a respectable Listen check.

So here's what they're listening to:

Whooossh - clank clank clank - "argh" -- whirrrr -- thump thump thump -- clank* -- clank clank clank -- click -- "WHOA!" - SLAM -- clank clank --"Thog, try to get in front of the" ....

The one clank that represents Durkon stepping out of the wall is marked with an asterisk*. In short, they're not going to pick out one small clank out of all the din they're undoubtedly making in their confusion as something to be alarmed about. Especially since it's coming from amongst them.

[Scrynor]

I'm not sure if anyone else pointed this out or not yet but Holy Word is actually a much better than choice than you'd would expect strictly from what it does mechanically.

OOTS is fighting intelligently for once.

First, deafening, while a weak debuff (although it does get a nice spell fail chance on Z since they are down V), is very good in-comic. These are two teams both taking orders from a set leader. Everyone being deaf really screws that up.

Second, we've already seen Roy take risks to gather intelligence. Holy Word is perfect for this. He knows Thog isn't Thog but knows the guy is strong. We don't know if he suspects Tarquin yet but Holy Word is a perfect feeler to determine if the guy is above them or not (which would probably confirm any Tarquin suspicions).

[TXMount]

With Durkon's deity-of-choice being Thor, I'm amazed that the Holy Word wasn't "Mead" or "Wenches."

[Angband]

So one thing I didn't see anyone mention in this thread: in addition to all of the effects of the spell itself, it looks like Durkon's Holy Word is flinging the LG around a lot. That's very dangerous in an area packed with traps.

Sabine and Nale, especially, are being pushed in an uncontrolled fashion right towards several already-revealed traps. Will we see Nale get raked by saw blades again next strip?

[Scrynor]

I interpretted the other images of them as reflections of what is happening to their soul or some such. You think they are being physically moved? Does it work that way?

Also, KilKil is still tumbling way offscreen. Do we think there is a chance he is just dead? Seems like a plot let down though so probably not. I go paralyzed though...

[TXMount]

Also... That corridor seems fairly narrow. Blade Barrier fills 20 ft/lvl long by 20 ft tall, but doesn't mention thickness.. If it's got any real depth to the barrier at all, casting it parallel to the corridor and centered in the middle, could leave next-to-no room to maneuver. It could theoretically make the hallway *really inhospitable* for 320 feet... and it definitely falls under the Domain spells list for Durkon..

[SoC175]

Hm, so Tarquin is definately not higher level than Durkon

Assuming the Thor of the Stickverse has access to similar domains as the D&D published ones, Durkon might have used this as his domain slot, granting him a nice +1 CL to all good type spells as per the granted power of the good domain.

Might explain why Tarquin is affected and the overall effect seems greater.

EDIT: Just checked the Class and Level thread and its pretty much gospel that Durkon has the Good domain as he casts Holy Smite, for which the good domain is a requirement.

Then he would be a mere 1 level above them, that doesn't matter for non-casters (and also not for casters except every second level when it's the difference of having a new spell level your one level lower opponent doesn't).

[Emperordaniel]

Hm, so Tarquin is definately not higher level than Durkon

We don't know that for sure yet; however, it does seem possible. There are a lot of posters here - myself included - who think that Tarquin is high enough level to shrug off the spell, and that he is just going to fake being affected, or will not be noticeably affected at all (and that his position in the last panel is simply him "bracing for impact" or something of the sort).

[Kish]

Then he would be a mere 1 level above them, that doesn't matter for non-casters (and also not for casters except every second level when it's the difference of having a new spell level your one level lower opponent doesn't).

Ugh.

Tarquin's level relative to Durkon's caster level matters very much for Holy Word.

If the Holy Word deafens but does not blind Tarquin, we can say "Tarquin is definitely exactly one level higher than Durkon." And if it both deafens and blinds Tarquin, then we can say "Tarquin is no higher level than Durkon."

[Ninja Dragon]

I think it is pretty obvious that Elan's father will act as if he were deaf in order to keep his charade. Now it's just a fight between his bluff vs everyone's elses' sense motive... seems like easy money for the big T.

Assuming Tarquin can defeat the entire oots by himself, including Vaarsuvius who will show up at any moment.

I think it will go like this: Sabine is banned, Qarr isn't. Malack starts using a spell to get past the door. Belkar kills the kobold and them goes after Tarquin. Haley attacks the elf since he is weak to arrows (and she probably knows that already). Elan takes Nale. Roy and Belkar try to hold Tarquin. Durkon holds Malack who will soon get past the door. Vaarsuvius will arrive when Tarquin and Malack are winning, and even the match.

Then Xykon teleports at the worst possible time and all hell breaks loose.

[Math_Mage]

Are we even arguing about whether it was "out of character"? As far as I know, the argument is about...

...uh....

Okay, I'm honestly stumped - what is the question here? Whether Z should have said "Nor I" instead of "Me too"? I genuinely have no idea.

First it was pointing out that "Me too" is grammatically incorrect. Then it was suggesting alternatives such as "Me neither" and "Nor I." Then someone said that "Nor I" was not plausible for Z to say because it was too verbose.

Then the argument got really silly.

[Emperordaniel]

Assuming Tarquin can defeat the entire oots by himself, including Vaarsuvius who will show up at any moment.

He already practically defeated the entire Order by himself once (and Malack said that he was just showboating then). I'm pretty sure Tarquin would have the capabilities to do the same thing again, especially with that much-more-powerful-than-normal Ring of Regeneration and who-knows-what other magic items he has.

[Ninja Dragon]

He already practically defeated the entire Order by himself once (and Malack said that he was just showboating then). I'm pretty sure Tarquin would have the capabilities to do the same thing again, especially with that much-more-powerful-than-normal Ring of Regeneration and who-knows-what other magic items he has.

Yes, but don't underestimate the elf. I doubt there is anyone in the LG who can defeat him/her.

[rewinn]

I should like to object to the proposition that Durkon's Holy Word might be "beer" (...or something similar such as "mead".) Beer is indeed holy, and can cause blinding and incapacitation. It can induce deafness (especially to one's spouse saying, "Dear, you've had enough"). However, it generally takes a couple of rounds to have such an effect.

[kickassfrog]

Now would be a perfect item for an illusion by Elan. LG deafened and can't lip read because of T's helmet and balaclava. T can't take them off without revealing identity.