OOTS #859 - The Discussion Thread

[Snails]

Incorrect. The ring of true seeing allows the user to see as they really are, but it does have a prerequisite of the user having to be able to see. If the user is unable to see, then the true sight cannot be bestowed.

Right. True Seeing would not help against smoke.

But, now that you mention it, True Seeing does explain why Tarquin suspected a trap. Because he saw one lone magical aura (Durkon's Meld Into Stone spell) on a wall near a locale he thought would be pretty good for an ambush.

[jere7my]

Assuming the statement of "Durkon can see out of the wall" is correct, Tarquin's cover is blown.

You can't see out of a stone you're melded into. You have to maintain some tenuous contact with the surface, but you can't see; you can only hear.

[jere7my]

But, now that you mention it, True Seeing does explain why Tarquin suspected a trap. Because he saw one lone magical aura (Durkon's Meld Into Stone spell) on a wall near a locale he thought would be pretty good for an ambush.

Rich has already explained that he made a spot check against Haley.

[Douglas]

Right. True Seeing would not help against smoke.

But, now that you mention it, True Seeing does explain why Tarquin suspected a trap. Because he saw one lone magical aura (Durkon's Meld Into Stone spell) on a wall near a locale he thought would be pretty good for an ambush.

In addition to what jere7my said, True Seeing does not do anything to detect magic. True Seeing allows you to see through illusions and see the true form of anything that's been transformed by magic. Meld Into Stone does not fall under either of those categories.

Detecting magical auras has its own set of spells, and we don't have any reason to believe that Tarquin has any of those in any form.

[FujinAkari]

Right. True Seeing would not help against smoke.

But, now that you mention it, True Seeing does explain why Tarquin suspected a trap. Because he saw one lone magical aura (Durkon's Meld Into Stone spell) on a wall near a locale he thought would be pretty good for an ambush.

It is not clear that True Seeing would reveal Meld Into Stone, since Meld causes you to actually merge into an actual stone object, and so True Sight would not be able to penetrate the stone to see you (it explicitly does NOT allow any sort of x-ray vision)

[SinsI]

Incorrect. The ring of true seeing allows the user to see as they really are, but it does have a prerequisite of the user having to be able to see. If the user is unable to see, then the true sight cannot be bestowed.

Just where exactly in its description did you find said prerequisite?

You don't even need to have eyes - after utilizing that spell, you gain the ability to see. Just look at the seer in one of the earlier comics - she was wearing a blindfold, and still saw invisible Xykon.

Smoke doesn't really stop you from seeing - you just see the smoke and nothing else; it acts as a complete cover.

[willpell]

First it was pointing out that "Me too" is grammatically incorrect.

Drow are usually Chaotic, Evil or both. Why would they care about following the rules of grammar? They'll just shiv anybody who makes fun of the way they talk, then go back to their nefarious plotting.

[i6uuaq]

Just where exactly in its description did you find said prerequisite?

You don't even need to have eyes - after utilizing that spell, you gain the ability to see. Just look at the seer in one of the earlier comics - she was wearing a blindfold, and still saw invisible Xykon.

Smoke doesn't really stop you from seeing - you just see the smoke and nothing else; it acts as a complete cover.

There's a part of me that dreads being drawn into such a discussion, but...

By your argument, the blindfold wouldn't stop the seer from seeing either - she just saw the blindfold and nothing else. The blindfold should have exactly the same effect on True Seeing as smoke does. Being blind is something quite different...

[i6uuaq]

You can't see out of a stone you're melded into. You have to maintain some tenuous contact with the surface, but you can't see; you can only hear.

Ah, my bad. I remembered previous comments wrongly. So cover not blown.

[Emperordaniel]

Would Holy Word banish Sabine like the spell description for Holy Word suggests? If so, that's a huge advantage for OOTS.

There's a high chance of that, yes.

[ti'esar]

There's a part of me that dreads being drawn into such a discussion, but...

By your argument, the blindfold wouldn't stop the seer from seeing either - she just saw the blindfold and nothing else. The blindfold should have exactly the same effect on True Seeing as smoke does. Being blind is something quite different...

Also, it's possible that the blindfold didn't actually signify blindness. It could be a "seer thing".

[Werbaer]

At any rate, he would have seen Kilkil.
Assuming the statement of "Durkon can see out of the wall" is correct, Tarquin's cover is blown.

Ok, so Nale hired Kilkil for the Linear Guild, to replace their missing kobold. Where's the connection to Tarquin?

[Stormwolf]

I was thinking that Durkon's Holy Word would be 'Carlsberg'.. or maybe 'Heineken' but that's probably a bit obscure for the rest of the world... and any reference to an American brand would be more of a Coors than a blessing, as the opinion of Bruce at the University of Woolloomooloo (Dept. of Philosophy) is as true today as it was 30 years ago ;)

Link for those few who don't get the reference (contains a few naughty words and thus probably NSFW)

[lindorm]

I was thinking that Durkon's Holy Word would be 'Carlsberg'.. or maybe 'Heineken' but that's probably a bit obscure for the rest of the world... and any reference to an American brand would be more of a Coors than a blessing, as the opinion of Bruce at the University of Woolloomooloo (Dept. of Philosophy) is as true today as it was 30 years ago ;)

Neither Carlsberg (except their Jacobsen line which is almost passable) or Heineken are even remotely close to being good beers.
Also, there are plenty of decent US brands once you start looking past their sorry excuses for lagers - most US IPAs are very good, at least the ones that get exported.

[Stormwolf]

Neither Carlsberg (except their Jacobsen line which is almost passable) or Heineken are even remotely close to being good beers.

I quit drinking the stuff years ago ;) As Durkon worships Thor I was just trying to think of a beer with a Scandinavian flavor (pun intended)... plus the Coors / Lessing (curse / blessing) pun was too good (or bad) to pass up... except I now notice that my phone's autocorrect changed 'Lessing' to 'blessing' ...oh well maybe it wasn't that good a pun anyway...

[Chris Opperman]

This strip was truly excellent.

[willpell]

Also, it's possible that the blindfold didn't actually signify blindness. It could be a "seer thing".

It would still impair her from seeing if not for her ability to True See through it.

[Kish]

Sangwaan was actually blind (print-only material) and she was actually able to see when she cast True Seeing, so...apparently Tarquin will be able to see even if he's the same level as Durkon. Still, and even if there's absolutely no indication of whether he becomes reliant on the Ring to see, if he's deafened it will narrow his level down.

[sims796]

Wait, so True Seeing doesn't help him see through the actual smoke, no?

[Yendor]

Wait, so True Seeing doesn't help him see through the actual smoke, no?

No. The rules say to treat it like a fog cloud, which grants concealment which True Seeing won't help with.

Of course, Tarquin might not be wearing the ring at all. He might have swapped it out for something else to help him fighht the Order.

On a different matter, Durkon's a dwarf. All human beer is rubbish to him.

[MDay15]

It seems to me like the appeal of Holy Word is the confusion it will generate. Nale will probably be deafened, as will Kilkil and Zz'dtri. Thus, Nale will be hard pressed to keep his team from falling apart, and as we just saw, he isn't much of a leader anyways. The only person capable of taking orders (I'm assuming Tarquin isn't deafened) is also the one person most capable of giving them.

[FujinAkari]

Sangwaan was actually blind (print-only material) and she was actually able to see when she cast True Seeing, so...apparently Tarquin will be able to see even if he's the same level as Durkon. Still, and even if there's absolutely no indication of whether he becomes reliant on the Ring to see, if he's deafened it will narrow his level down.

I think you may be over-reading the joke. The rules do not penalize a blind character the same as they penalize a character who has been temporarily blinded ("Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.")

Therefore I think it is entirely plausible that Sangwaan had learned to sense fluctuations in magic or some other fluff-explaination without assuming that True Seeing literally restores vision to those who do not have it. True Seeing is pretty explicit about what it does and does not do, and no where does it indicate that it grants enhansed vision or a bonus to spot checks, so things that are hard for the character to see remain hard for the character to see.

Since Blindness completely negates Spot Checks, I would classify it as something which True Seeing explicitly does not assist with.

[Kish]

I think you may be over-reading the joke. The rules do not penalize a blind character the same as they penalize a character who has been temporarily blinded ("Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.")

Therefore I think it is entirely plausible that Sangwaan had learned to sense fluctuations in magic or some other fluff-explaination without assuming that True Seeing literally restores vision to those who do not have it.

You're saying that when Sangwaan stares directly at Xykon-and-dragon and goes, "Oh...oh my..." she's not actually seeing them?

That is definitely a bold claim. I wonder what joke I would be "over-reading."

[FujinAkari]

You're saying that when Sangwaan stares directly at Xykon-and-dragon and goes, "Oh...oh my..." she's not actually seeing them?

That is definitely a bold claim. I wonder what joke I would be "over-reading."

Joke may have been a poor choice of words. I was referring to OOTS' tradition of having the rules of the D&D world play out and have them be an established part of day-to-day life. The rules state that characters who are blind for extended periods (like Sangwaan) can overcome some of the limitations of being blind, so casting true sight and being able to percieve Xykon is totally within RAW without the need for True Sight to actually bestow the ability to see.

Tarquin, by contrast, has not been blind for extended periods of time and so is still very much dependant on his vision. Assuming True Sight does not grant vision, merely prevents illusionary or transmutation spells from interfering with perception (as the spell description states) then it should not help a blinded Tarquin at all.

[EmperorSarda]

Had there been total cover such as this smoke between Sangwaan and Xykon when she used True Seeing, she would not have been able to see him.

[pcgneurotic]

YES! Finally, we're kicking some ASS! It's *so* nice to see the guys handing out the pain. GO Stick, GO!!

[ScreamingGod]

Woo HOO . . Durkon, get your CLERIC on!

[WindStruck]

Great, so if the OOTS can successfully thwart the entire "Linear Guild", they'll have the smoking gun to prove Tarquin was collaborating with Nale!

[Ingus]

On a different matter, Durkon's a dwarf. All human beer is rubbish to him.

Precisely a tankard of moose urine

[Nightpenguin]

Had there been total cover such as this smoke between Sangwaan and Xykon when she used True Seeing, she would not have been able to see him.

Actually, according to the rules on blindness,

Blinded

The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

(emphasis mine)