OOTS #859 - The Discussion Thread

[ManuelSacha]

Ouch. Looks like it's time for Durkon's 'posthumous return' to the Dwarven lands.

You're a cheerful one, aren't you?

[Omergideon]

Hey, he completely outsmarted him in Cliffport.

Very effectively as well. And as I said he did pretty well in his impromptu ambush in the EoB, and here he was thinking clearly once he had a moment to calm down. not to mention in Dorukans Dungeon (without the natural 20 they would have won). Granted he does over complicate plots too much but Nale is not a total moron.

[ChowGuy]

"Nor I" would fit right in with the dark elf's personality, too.

Er, no. If it were V, one could expect "Nor I" (if not something even more loquacious) but in fact it's Z, who's much to taciturn to say any more then absolutely necessary.

[malignor]

Holy Word ...

Nale (HD=CL) = deaf
Sabine (monstrous LA+6, and ECL=CL so HD=CL-6) = deaf + blind + paralyzed + probably banished (assuming Durkon beat SR)
Winged Kobold (template give LA+2, and ECL=CL so HD=CL-2) = blind + deaf
Z'Drow (racial LA+2, and ECL=CL so HD=CL-2) = blind + deaf (assuming Durkon beat SR)
Tarquin (HD>CL) = "Sorry, did you say something?"
Malak (HD>CL) = "Oh hey Durkon, nice move! A cleric worthy of respect indeed."

My prediction:

• Sabine will make the save, but be ignored as she's paralyzed+blind+deaf
• Nale will flip out, being deaf in a smokey cloud
• Tarquin will spring out of the smoke and use a fancy move, revealing he's too high a level to be Thog
• Malak will give Durkon a compliment and blow away the smoke.
• The Winged Kobold will fly blindly into a wall and fall down, ignored for now
• Z'Drow's SR will fail him and he'll be messed up and probably cast an AoE to save his butt, annoying his badguy companions
• The OOTS will follow up with move #3, which will be partly thwarted by Malak+Tarquin
• V will hear the combat and show up at the end of the comic

[LordofNaught]

Well, a great deal of us were right. The spell was Holy Word. And the word is Holy. Huh, thought it'd be something more dramatic, but the font for the text took care of that. So, who imagined an angelic choir singing "Hallelujah" when the light show kicked in?

[Bulldog Psion]

Er, no. If it were V, one could expect "Nor I" (if not something even more loquacious) but in fact it's Z, who's much to taciturn to say any more then absolutely necessary.

"Nor I" is no longer than "Me too".

[Jay R]

It's also possible Rich interprets "Unaffected" not as "Literally does nothing" but "Does no damage and does not blind or deafen, ext" so the bracing may just be him withstanding it, even if he doesn't get deafened.

We'll know soon enough.

This strip's ending feels like a common, frustrating moment in a game with too many players. I've cast my spell, but it will take awhile for me to tell what affect it had. So I have to wait for the Giant DM to finish making his notes and eventually show us the results.

[Math_Mage]

We don't know for sure that affected characters are equal or lower level than Durkon, because we don't know what, if any, feats or magic items may be boosting Durkon's effective caster level. So with that in mind, how high could Durkon boost his CL for this? Assume he has every possible way to increase it.

Probably a bad idea, considering the amount of juice that theoretical optimization can squeeze from a stone.

Since this is the limited-op OotS, Durkon's unlikely to be casting at higher than CL 19-20 (level 14-15 + 1 (domain slot) + 4 (hypothetical bead of karma)).

Er, no. If it were V, one could expect "Nor I" (if not something even more loquacious) but in fact it's Z, who's much to taciturn to say any more then absolutely necessary.

"Nor I" is literally the shortest response that carries the same meaning. V would say something along the lines of "I also find myself visually incapacitated, Sir Greenhilt."

[Cuilean]

Given the way that Zz'dtri is tilted back with a panicked look in the last panel, this may be a sign of falling off balance due to paralysis.

Zz'dtri raises the left arm in the last "echo"... probably not paralyzed.

As a Succubus has a whopping +6 LA, Sabine likely has a REALLY bad Will save (especially as her actual class levels are likely as a slow Will progression Rogue). Adding in the -4 penalty from the spell and she is almost certainly gone for the next 24 hours.

Since Sabine only has two "echoes" while all the other characters have three, I agree --- she's gone poof for 24 hours. ;D

[Nephrahim]

I doubt he even has a bead. The spell works fine without him having it, so from a story perspective it's not needed, and we know the OotS aren't big into optimization the way players are.

[Gift Jeraff]

Zz'dtri raises the left arm in the last "echo"... probably not paralyzed.


Since Sabine only has two "echoes" while all the other characters have three, I agree --- she's gone poof for 24 hours. ;D

I see 3. Mouth open -> teeth -> mouth open.

[Riverdance]

Awesome strategizing Order. Great Comic. Thanks Rich.

[Math_Mage]

Since Sabine only has two "echoes" while all the other characters have three, I agree --- she's gone poof for 24 hours. ;D

Sabine has the same number of echoes as the other characters. On the far right of the final panel, you can see her third echo.

I doubt he even has a bead. The spell works fine without him having it, so from a story perspective it's not needed, and we know the OotS aren't big into optimization the way players are.

Hence 'hypothetical'. I'm granting it as a possibility since it was mentioned upthread, and this is honestly quite limited in terms of CL optimization. But it's true we haven't actually seen a bead used.

[ChowGuy]

"Nor I" is literally the shortest response that carries the same meaning."

You're missing the point though. "Nor I" requires thinking in terms of precise grammatical construction, with the goal of sounding as erudite as possible. That's V's bag. Z's grunts tend to make Thog look like Talky Man.

[Snurk]

Thanks Giant for you made me see I have been neglecting Meld into Stone.
I will build a Rogue/Cleric with/Black Flame Zealot and annoy my group with it coming saturday.
For they will be sneaked from the walls!

[Math_Mage]

That wasn't Stone to Flesh, though. It was Stoneshape or Meld Into Stone.

You're missing the point though. "Nor I" requires thinking in terms of precise grammatical construction, with the goal of sounding as erudite as possible. That's V's bag. Z's grunts tend to make Thog look like Talky Man.

"They're standard issue" is the first thing Z says in this comic. Hardly coarser speech than "Nor I." "V's bag" is exactly as I described it previously--verbose as well as erudite.

Do you really want to argue that it is implausible for Z to say "Nor I" instead of "Me neither" or "Me too"? Is that an argument worth having? Think about it.

[Psyren]

Malak (HD>CL) = "Oh hey Durkon, nice move! A cleric worthy of respect indeed."

The Word didn't affect Malak. Durkon doesn't have line of effect behind the steel bulkhead that slammed shut between them.

(Or is it "Malack," I forget and am lazy)

[SinsI]

One of the interesting questions is how far was Mallack and the imp.

Durkon doesn't have line of effect behind the steel bulkhead that slammed shut between them.

It's sound, it travels through metal (and walls). As long as they were within 12 meters, they must be affected.
P.S. since they are near the smoke, and a smokestick has only a range of 3 meters, I'm pretty sure they are also within the range of Holy.

[isamaru]

The effects are already visible in the last panel if you look closely. Everyone has 3 versions.
Nale, Zzdtri, and Sabine all have closed eyes in the third one. So I guess all of them are at least blinded.

Although it does not give them significant disadvantage in terms of numbers, they are screwed from the tactical perspective. No way to communicate about the strategy or even see what is going on around them.
Durkon alone is a serious threat to them now because he can spam them with additional debuffs and blasts from the safety of the darkness, and they won't even know what he's casting. They are completely helpless, some of them even helpless.

[PAKOofMM]

I find it ironic that a dungeon with "lame traps" suddenly becomes deadly to the LG because of a smokestick.

[OoTLink]

daaaaaaaaaang.

[Menarker]

I realize that Tarquin is extremely competent and high leveled, but I'm wondering why everyone says he seems to be unaffected by Holy Word. One of his hands was up to his ears and as previously mentioned, his leg is partly bent on his knees as if to support himself or avoid stumbling. As his mask obscures his face, we can't really be certain about how much of an annoyance the spell is, but I'd imagine that a completely unexpected pointblank auditory attack wouldn't be completely shrugged off.

I can totally get behind that he was one of least effected, along with the two behind the wall. But complete immunity? Gotta recall that this setting, while based heavily based on the DnD game, Holy Word probably isn't going to have their effects completely nullified just because Tarquin's theortical "Hit Dice" happens to match or nearly match Durkon's caster level. The effects would probably be more in line of varying hues of effectiveness, rather than the binary *insert effect if X < Y*.

[FujinAkari]

Well, a great deal of us were right. The spell was Holy Word. And the word is Holy. Huh, thought it'd be something more dramatic, but the font for the text took care of that. So, who imagined an angelic choir singing "Hallelujah" when the light show kicked in?

Actually, the spell was Stoneshape. I certainly interpret his "having just the spell for the ambush" to be a means that he can get into ambush position wearing heavy armor. Stealth is certainly not one of Durkon's strong points, and so a spell that allows him to participate in an ambush is noteworthy indeed.

While Holy Word is a great spell, I don't think that was what Durkon was referring too.

[Kish]

Gotta recall that this setting, while based heavily based on the DnD game, Holy Word probably isn't going to have their effects completely nullified just because Tarquin's theortical "Hit Dice" happens to match or nearly match Durkon's caster level. The effects would probably be more in line of varying hues of effectiveness, rather than the binary *insert effect if X < Y*.

Aside from the fact that you seem to be under the impression that Tarquin is universally acknowledged as lower level than Durkon, you're asking everyone to "recall" an assumption you're making which strikes me as extremely unlikely, that Rich will randomly house-rule Holy Word because...why now?

I very much hope Holy Word affects Tarquin. In large part because, if it does, we can finally say with authority (albeit I have no illusions of everyone being convinced...) that Tarquin is not epic-level, and unless Durkon mentions a Bead of Karma pretty quickly I, at least, will also feel comfortable saying "nor more than one level higher than Durkon."

[Douglas]

It's sound

The line of effect rules don't care without a specific exception, which Holy Word does not have.

Actually, the spell was Stoneshape. I certainly interpret his "having just the spell for the ambush" to be a means that he can get into ambush position wearing heavy armor. Stealth is certainly not one of Durkon's strong points, and so a spell that allows him to participate in an ambush is noteworthy indeed.

While Holy Word is a great spell, I don't think that was what Durkon was referring too.

Meld Into Stone, not Stone Shape.

[Bustamouse]

Going purely off the art here I will give my prediction

Nale - Grabs ears and closes eyes, deafened for sure but not paralyzed. I think the eyes closed means he is going to be blinded too.

Sabine - Same as Nale with the added potential she is about to get banished

Z - definately paralyzed, didn't move an inch (along with blind and deaf of course)

KilKil - Same as Z

Tarquin - We all know how tough he is and I think he is just bracing from the spell here and will not be affected. However I think some on brought up Malack wants to be the one to kill Durkon so we will see if he honors his friend's request.

[Bustamouse]

Going purely off the art here I will give my prediction

Nale - Grabs ears and closes eyes, deafened for sure but not paralyzed. I think the eyes closed means he is going to be blinded too.

Sabine - Same as Nale with the added potential she is about to get banished

Z - definately paralyzed, didn't move an inch (along with blind and deaf of course)

KilKil - Same as Z

Tarquin - We all know how tough he is and I think he is just bracing from the spell here and will not be affected. However I think some on brought up Malack wants to be the one to kill Durkon so we will see if he honors his friend's request.

[Krakes]

What spell did Durkon use to do that?

Also, how don't you hear the dwarf in full plate?

It looks like some magic was used to get him in the middle of the guild- that and the smoke, noise, and confusion probably offset his armor clanking.

On another note, how wonderfully convenient that Malack has been shut off from the guild in such a way that no one in the order can see him and figure our what's going on.

[Krakes]

What spell did Durkon use to do that?

Also, how don't you hear the dwarf in full plate?

It looks like some magic was used to get him in the middle of the guild- that and the smoke, noise, and confusion probably offset his armor clanking.

On another note, how wonderfully convenient that Malack has been shut off from the guild in such a way that no one in the order can see him and figure our what's going on.

[luc258]

I love how Roy turns the situation around with high int. One panel before, the OOTS was terribly outmatched.
Now the linear guild is divided and short of one of its most powerful members, the majority of it are stunned, blind, deaf and Sabine likely banished (can't tell for sure from the art, but I think it's banished). This leaves the Linear Guild short of its only person capable to handle traps in a pyramid that is one big death trap, it's way back cut off and Tarquin facing the Order alone except this time they are better prepared.
I really like how Roy turned this situation around with intelligence and not just brute force, I like how it was not just magic spell 1 + magic spell 2, but "ordinary" rogueish stuff that set up the ambush.

What will Roy do next? Attack Tarquin almost all vs. 1 and how will they manage this time, withdraw and have the linear guild stumble into a few traps? Will something unforseen happen?
Great story.
I also like the art for the holy word.