Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

[Hopeless]

You also noted that Frozone and Elasta-girl weren't in Syndrome's data-base. They were. He had a file on each of them. He even knew who Frozone was and probably would have gone after him next if he hadn't found a much more personal target, Mr. Incredible.
Good villain, though.

Actually as i recall when Mirage realised who was helping Frozone from that burning building it was actually Frozone who was her next intended target, since she realised who Mr Incredible was and how her boss felt about him was why she switched targets to him.

So Mr Incredible literally saved Frozone's life without even realising, Elasti-girl remained undetected because Mirage didn't check on Mr Incredible's family and quite possibily because whatever information Syndrome had on her didn't include the possibility she had settled down and got married as noted when he finally met Mr Incredible and his family for the first time on the island.

Interestingly he left them effectively locked up rather than continue his field testing possibly because he believed he wouldn't have time to do both.

But yes Syndrome was definitely evil but I can see the government being involved to some level, there's only so many supers going missing before something clicks and the one glaring flaw I could see was that a number of these heroes knew each other pretty well and Gazerbeam in particular or Everseer I really couldn't see them going on such a mission without backup or at least some information since in Everseer's case he was entirely outmatched.

Now had they indicated there had been teams of supers who had been killed then that part would have made sense but really some of the supers mentioned couldn't have possibly been able to do anything against a supposedly out of control robot!

I think Syndrome was not only used to eliminate particularly troublesome targets but he used them to cover up some of his more darker schemes, if they ever do a sequel I'd like this addressed since those government handlers should have said something!

[thubby]

you have to realize we're only seeing this from the incredibles' perspective.
there may well be a huge investigation into the disappearing supers, doesn't mean we'd see it on the screen. and given our perspective we wouldn't expect to.

[dehro]

Superheroes are given names and called superheroes by the common man..
Syndrome is a loser who gave himself a super-name.

also, Syndrome has a cape..
we all know what Edna Mode thinks about people with capes.

Incidentally, Edna Mode represents what Syndrome could have been/become, if he had bothered trying not to be a sociopath.
She's not a super, except maybe for a super intelligence applied to fashion (btw, the italian dubbing had Amanda Lear voice Edna Mode, which is a stroke of genious.. google her..she's worth the read).
likewise, Syndrome could be a bit of a super in that he has great intelligence and obvious market skills, applied to weapons and robotics.
but no..Syndrome is a villain, so he turned to killing people.
I may do a point by point rebuke of your statements which contain a number of flaws already pointed out by others..but I really should be working...so that will have to wait.

[theNater]

Do we know how long Syndrome was iterating on the Omnidroid? It matters because 15 supers going missing over the course of 20 years is far less likely to raise alarm bells than 15 supers going missing over 6 months.

[Tebryn]

Well, it's only on V10 when it's launched into the city. Though Syndrome says it took him 15 years. So that's a year a hero? Not so weird really.

Not only that, but we're forgetting that he designed the big bot to fight Mr. Incredible. Killed all those heros to fight Mr. Incredible. He says so. To his face.

[thubby]

Well, it's only on V10 when it's launched into the city. Though Syndrome says it took him 15 years. So that's a year a hero? Not so weird really.

Not only that, but we're forgetting that he designed the big bot to fight Mr. Incredible. Killed all those heros to fight Mr. Incredible. He says so. To his face.

i thought it was 15 years since he set out on his plan, which may have happened when he was little.

[Avilan the Grey]

I think he has brought his opinions on Syndrome and the Incredibles once or twice before, each other time it gets rather vehemently shot down.

I can see a case made for seeing Syndome as sympathetic (not one I agree with, mind you, but a case can be made, Mr I did act a bit harshly too him)

But calling a man who committed multiple counts of unrepentant murder, bombed a plane, unleashed a giant killer robot on a city, and then kidnapped a child a hero is well... I don't want to get into what I think of a person who believes that.

No; he lost all rights to sympathy the moment he started with his plan. He is a mass-murderer motivated by two things: Greed and Petty (VERY Petty) Revenge. Supers aside, his plan hinges on killing innocent civilians to make money and being able to show off.

How so? We've only argued about this one point.

No, we have argued many things over a number of years. You tend to always be morally outraged against things the rest of us don't feel that way about, and the other way around (like in this case). In other words, you have a different view of most things than the rest of us here at this forum.

Incidentally, Edna Mode represents what Syndrome could have been/become, if he had bothered trying not to be a sociopath.

Definitely. She is a gadgeteer, just like him, and nuts, to a degree, but GOOD nuts.

[Tebryn]

i thought it was 15 years since he set out on his plan, which may have happened when he was little.

It's ambigious. He mentions it when he's about to kill the rest of the Incredibles. He shouts "15 years blah blah" but he doesn't say it was 15 years since he built the robots. It's kinda implied but...I'm not going to fall on either side really because it's not really that important other than it shows that Syndrome has focused on revenge for 15 years.

[Omergideon]

The main points that seem flawed in Sunken Valleys arguement have been pointed out many times in this thread. I agree quite a lot with them. Sunken Valley's logic works when based upon a number of his assumptions. However a few of those were incorrect assumptions and other, more plausible reasons have been stated by a few.

Tebryn specifically does quite the good job.

I would merely add 2 responses. Firstly, I concur that a person posing a risk of danger may warrant observation and care. Supers have incredible levels of power and, with their activities outlawed, keeping an eye on them makes sense. It may clash with some thoughts on civil liberty (see most x-men films/comics for this debate) but it is a defensible and rational position. However potential risk is far from actual risk. On an absolute scale I represent potential risk to many people. I am large, fit, trained in martial arts and if my history is looked at enough it is possible to justify me being seen a a person at risk of violence.

I mean that to your average woman (say, as they are a traditional target) I represent a meaningful potential risk. So her keeping an eye on me, or perhaps not walking down a dark alley I just entered may make sense. But for her to walk up and taser me if she wishes to walk home "just to be safe" is crossing the line to paranoia. As a potential risk wariness is acceptable. A Pre-emptive strike when there is no imminent and immeadiate risk of danger would usually be declared legally indefensible, and morally wrong. The same principle applies to superheroes. Mind Control Girl may warrant observation, but to kill her pre-emptively on the risk and not a real and active threat corsses the line.


The second is the dysfunction of the Incredibles Family. It is true that at the start of the film they have issues. This is a big part of the plot. Dash is overly excitable and not controlled enough. Violet is shy (though to say she is stalking requires a massively jaded view of her actions). Bob is depressed and Helen is struggling to cope with the kids. In other words they are a normal family. The source of the dysfunction can be traced to Bob's overall disaffection with his life as it stands. He is not helping out at home enough and as such Helen is struggling to handle 2 school age kids (pre and post pubescent). and a baby. This is tough to do. Studies do state that 2 parents cope with this sort of set up much more easily than one does, with statistics to back it up. And with Bob depressed functionally it is one parent.

However we have a long montage and the conclusion of the film. In the "getting in shape" montage we see Bob spending more time with his kids, actively involved in family life etc. As a result of this the family life has clearly been seen to be more harmonious and happy. More especially we see the effect of becoming closer as a family (and Bob being an active part of his life) at the end of the film. Violet is now less shy, Dash has found more peace in his life, the parents are close and all round they appear more stable. Thus the accusation that kidnapping Jack Jack was a good act is flawed at best. By the time it happens the stability of the family is much greater.

Granted the lies about the new job are a problem waiting to happen, and a huge issue. BUT the point is that Bob becoming an active part in his Kids life (compared to before) led to a happier and less dysfunctional family. In short, the problem was a normal family one, solved in normal family ways. Being Superpowered was almost irrelevent to this except in the specific expressions of their dysfunction.

[dehro]

on the plus side..I'm going to use the rebuttal to this thread as an excuse to watch Incredibles again.

[thubby]

on the plus side..I'm going to use the rebuttal to this thread as an excuse to watch Incredibles again.

do us a favor and see if you cant keep track of an age/timeline estimate.

[Selrahc]

Flawed logic or not, that was a pretty entertaining read SV. While some of the morals are up for debate there's a lot of heartless but pragmatic sense in what he's said as well.

If the intended conclusion was that Syndrome was a necessary evil, who would ultimately do more good for society than the supers that he murdered, then maybe. It would all be pretty sketchy, but at least things like enjoyment over callous murder wouldn't really be a detriment to it.

Syndrome is clearly and self evidently, a real nasty piece of work. He isn't a hero.

[Knaight]

I would merely add 2 responses. Firstly, I concur that a person posing a risk of danger may warrant observation and care. Supers have incredible levels of power and, with their activities outlawed, keeping an eye on them makes sense. It may clash with some thoughts on civil liberty (see most x-men films/comics for this debate) but it is a defensible and rational position. However potential risk is far from actual risk. On an absolute scale I represent potential risk to many people. I am large, fit, trained in martial arts and if my history is looked at enough it is possible to justify me being seen a a person at risk of violence.

I mean that to your average woman (say, as they are a traditional target) I represent a meaningful potential risk. So her keeping an eye on me, or perhaps not walking down a dark alley I just entered may make sense. But for her to walk up and taser me if she wishes to walk home "just to be safe" is crossing the line to paranoia. As a potential risk wariness is acceptable. A Pre-emptive strike when there is no imminent and immeadiate risk of danger would usually be declared legally indefensible, and morally wrong. The same principle applies to superheroes. Mind Control Girl may warrant observation, but to kill her pre-emptively on the risk and not a real and active threat corsses the line.

Of course, the equivalent to what Syndrome is doing wouldn't be an average women walking up and tasering you. A closer equivalent would be a retired special forces member who you don't pose the slightest threat to walking up with a shotgun, because you have the potential to be dangerous.

The second is the dysfunction of the Incredibles Family. It is true that at the start of the film they have issues. This is a big part of the plot. Dash is overly excitable and not controlled enough. Violet is shy (though to say she is stalking requires a massively jaded view of her actions). Bob is depressed and Helen is struggling to cope with the kids. In other words they are a normal family. The source of the dysfunction can be traced to Bob's overall disaffection with his life as it stands. He is not helping out at home enough and as such Helen is struggling to handle 2 school age kids (pre and post pubescent). and a baby. This is tough to do. Studies do state that 2 parents cope with this sort of set up much more easily than one does, with statistics to back it up. And with Bob depressed functionally it is one parent.

I wouldn't call the family dysfunctional at all. There are some minor relationship problems, and everyone in it has their own flaws. That isn't broken at all, merely imperfect; dysfunctional implies the former. If they were actually dysfunctional there would likely be either real hatred between them or an incredible level of apathy, to the point where people in the family simply do not matter to each other.

[Sunken Valley]

No, we have argued many things over a number of years. You tend to always be morally outraged against things the rest of us don't feel that way about, and the other way around (like in this case). In other words, you have a different view of most things than the rest of us here at this forum.

I'm sure you've got me mixed up. I only joined the forums June 2011 and have been absent for the last 2 months. We did debate about Incredibles having a warped message and that super heroes should kill Villains. I'd like some examples.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm sure you've got me mixed up. I only joined the forums June 2011 and have been absent for the last 2 months. We did debate about Incredibles having a warped message and that super heroes should kill Villains. I'd like some examples.

Well there is your post in the Megamind thread where you argued against Syndrome's guilt the first time. Or the same thing in the "Favorite Pixar Movie" thread.

So maybe I was wrong, and the only item you end up on the other side of the tracks is this particular one. If so I change my statement:

"Sunken Valley has a very strong opinion of the Incredibles that seems to be at odds with everyone else on the forum, and he has expressed it at several times before this one." There, that should be correct!

[Hopeless]

I'm sure you've got me mixed up. I only joined the forums June 2011 and have been absent for the last 2 months. We did debate about Incredibles having a warped message and that super heroes should kill Villains. I'd like some examples.

The Joker would exmplify the one who shouldn't be allowed to kill again.

How would you view the Punisher though?

If this movie was remade I would like the opposition consist of a family of supers except the lead antagonist is remarkable because they don't have powers in a family of supers and the "Syndrome" of this remake has a genuine hatred of superheroes but has used this as an excuse to punish everybody to cover up for his own loss of self-esteem.
I'd make it more obvious he has links in the government and that this was supposed to help weaken the heroes own country for an eventual coup using "Syndrome's" inventions.
As an added bonus have her father be a former Supervillain who is trying to protect his daughter but that might be going a little too far for the purposes of this thread at least!

[Manga Shoggoth]

Since all the other points have been covered (in better ways than I would put them):

A subject of The Incredibles that is close to my heart is the matter of Syndrome’s death. After his failed attempt to kidnap Jack-Jack, Syndrome gets into his private jet, swearing vengeance on the Incredibles. As he does so, Mr Incredible picks up his car (a car Syndrome bought for him) and throws it straight at Syndrome (a glaring lack of respect).

(a) Syndrome did not buy the car for Mr Incredible. At that point Mr Incredible did not even know who Syndrome was. Mr Incredible brought it with the money he earned on the job for Mirage. It was not - in any way - a gift from Syndrome. By the same logic, my car is a gift from my company, because I bought it with money earned from the company.

(b) How can throwing a car at the person who has...

• ...Attempted to kill you
• ...And your family
• ...Killed a number of your friends in preparation for killing you
• ...and to cap it all has just tried to kidnap your son

...possibly be described as "a glaring lack of respect"?

[Aotrs Commander]

(b) How can throwing a car at the person who has...

• ...Attempted to kill you
• ...And your family
• ...Killed a number of your friends in preparation for killing you
• ...and to cap it all has just tried to kidnap your son

...possibly be described as "a glaring lack of respect"?

Come to think of it, I suspect even Superman might have chucked something heavy at Lex Luthor in similar circumstances... Maybe. (Though he has more options open to him as well.)

Lesser (i.e. nonsuperpowered) mortals like Horatio Caine, Jack O'Niell or Han Solo would have just right-out shot him in in the head, for that matter...

[Avilan the Grey]

Since all the other points have been covered (in better ways than I would put them):



(a) Syndrome did not buy the car for Mr Incredible. At that point Mr Incredible did not even know who Syndrome was. Mr Incredible brought it with the money he earned on the job for Mirage. It was not - in any way - a gift from Syndrome. By the same logic, my car is a gift from my company, because I bought it with money earned from the company.

(b) How can throwing a car at the person who has...

• ...Attempted to kill you
• ...And your family
• ...Killed a number of your friends in preparation for killing you
• ...and to cap it all has just tried to kidnap your son

...possibly be described as "a glaring lack of respect"?

Even if he HAD bought the car... Why would that make Mr Incredible wrong in what he is using it for? It might have been highly IRONIC, but not morally wrong.

And as it's pointed out above: Syndrome is killed because of extreme Evil combined with stupidity: His cape is sucked into the jet engine of his plane after he threatens to come back and hurt the family again (for Petty Revenge's sake, which, again, is why he became a mass murdering psychopath to begin with). If he had stopped himself from "Monologuing" and threatening a father's children (for a third time) he might have gotten away.

[Dienekes]

Am I bad if I admit that, probably, Magneto is the BEG that I sympathize more with?

Not necessarily, though I'd suggest you read a few more of his comics. If anything Magneto is worse than Syndrome, but with some actual sad in his backstory.

[Fragenstein]

(a) Syndrome did not buy the car for Mr Incredible. At that point Mr Incredible did not even know who Syndrome was. Mr Incredible brought it with the money he earned on the job for Mirage. It was not - in any way - a gift from Syndrome. By the same logic, my car is a gift from my company, because I bought it with money earned from the company.

Well... now... not that I want to defend Syndrome, because I've always seen him as a bit of a tool, but that money was earned under a ruse including a job that didn't actually exist. It was part of a con. The money wasn't honestly earned because Mr. Incredible wasn't actually employed.

I can see how the interpretation of the car's origins can be considered a 'gift' rather than a 'purchase'.

(b) How can throwing a car at the person who has...

Respect or not, he threw that car at a plane over a residential neighborhood. Burning jet fuel? Falling auto parts? Multi-ton fuselages? At the very least it seemed to be a poorly thought-out reaction.

EDIT: Well, okay, he did miss hitting the actual plane and probably had enough experience to know he'd miss the plane. But I still have to wonder who's house did the car land on?

[Avilan the Grey]

Respect or not, he threw that car at a plane over a residential neighborhood. Burning jet fuel? Falling auto parts? Multi-ton fuselages? At the very least it seemed to be a poorly thought-out reaction.

Of course. It's almost like it's a super hero movie...

[Manga Shoggoth]

Even if he HAD bought the car... Why would that make Mr Incredible wrong in what he is using it for? It might have been highly IRONIC, but not morally wrong.

I quite agree. I was arguing against Sunken Valley's apparant belief that the car was a gift, and Mr Incredible was using the said gift in an unjustified attack on the person who gave it to him.

In fact, I always had the reverse opinion: Mr Incredible buys two cars - a flashy car for himself, and another slightly more practical one for his wife. He throws his car at Syndrome because it is the first thing to come to hand, and he now realises that it was an "ego" purchase and - worse - brought with money from Syndrome.

[Avilan the Grey]

I quite agree. I was arguing against Sunken Valley's apparant belief that the car was a gift, and Mr Incredible was using the said gift in an unjustified attack on the person who gave it to him.

In fact, I always had the reverse opinion: Mr Incredible buys two cars - a flashy car for himself, and another slightly more practical one for his wife. He throws his car at Syndrome because it is the first thing to come to hand, and he now realises that it was an "ego" purchase and - worse - brought with money from Syndrome.

Exactly. We are arguing the same thing here. I was building on your argument by questioning why it is morally wrong to use a gift from someone to protect yourself and your family from that someone.

[The Glyphstone]

Of course. It's almost like it's a super hero movie...

Yeah, but also a superhero movie dedicated to deconstructing things like the collateral damage superheroes can cause - if there had been a sequel, I'd expect something like that to be brought up.

[dehro]

Well... now... not that I want to defend Syndrome, because I've always seen him as a bit of a tool, but that money was earned under a ruse including a job that didn't actually exist. It was part of a con. The money wasn't honestly earned because Mr. Incredible wasn't actually employed.

yeah.. no.
Mr Incredible was actually employed by what he believed to be a government agency, so the money he earned was justified. the only ruses were that Syndrome is not a governmental agency, something Mr Incredible didn't know and which doesn't affect the book-keeping side of things, and the fact that Mrs Incredible thought he was still earning his keep from insurances.
other than that, there was nothing dishonest or "non existent" in the job.

[Ramza00]

Well, Mags is sorta the poster-boy for "sympathetic villain"; so much so he's spent about a third of his time as one of the heroes, so...!

Not really, the amount of death and destruction will limit the amount of sympathy I have for him. He will always be a villain, sometimes he is a reformed villain but a villain he remains.

The best point of his character is that he often feels regret for his actions.

[Aotrs Commander]

Not really, the amount of death and destruction will limit the amount of sympathy I have for him. He will always be a villain, sometimes he is a reformed villain but a villain he remains.

The best point of his character is that he often feels regret for his actions.

Well, I never said I felt at all sympathetic towards him! Heh.

No, it's just that he's a common example of the, if you'll forgive me trope-dropping, the "well-intentioned extremist". Unlike say, Doctor Doom, he at least thinks he's doing the right thing, and had enough of a cruddy start in life that you can sort of see where he's coming from. Even if, by and large, he's frequently only marginally less bonkers than the aforementioned, particular comic depending...

Of course, the fact that mutants have shown to be just as mind-numbingly stupid and bigoted as flatscans just shows that mutants are still very much humans - something Mags has never quite got, the silly bugger. In some ways, he's more naive than Xavier.

[Omergideon]

Of course, the equivalent to what Syndrome is doing wouldn't be an average women walking up and tasering you. A closer equivalent would be a retired special forces member who you don't pose the slightest threat to walking up with a shotgun, because you have the potential to be dangerous.


I wouldn't call the family dysfunctional at all. There are some minor relationship problems, and everyone in it has their own flaws. That isn't broken at all, merely imperfect; dysfunctional implies the former. If they were actually dysfunctional there would likely be either real hatred between them or an incredible level of apathy, to the point where people in the family simply do not matter to each other.

1) True, however by using an example where the person is more justified than syndrome it makes the lack of power in the position he "should" kill supers all the more apparent.

2) I would say that they were disfunctional in minor ways. Certainly they had some reasonably serious issues in how the kids were growing up. however perhaps the word disfunctional is a little strong. I did try to make it clear that the problems in the family were caused by the relative impotence of the father figure in the family (caused by his apathy at non-super life).


And yeah, Mr Incredible did think he was earning money in a legitimate way. His lying about it was problematic to be sure, but there was no crime that he was aware of in how he earnt his money.

[Fragenstein]

yeah.. no.
Mr Incredible was actually employed by what he believed to be a government agency, so the money he earned was justified. the only ruses were that Syndrome is not a governmental agency, something Mr Incredible didn't know and which doesn't affect the book-keeping side of things, and the fact that Mrs Incredible thought he was still earning his keep from insurances.
other than that, there was nothing dishonest or "non existent" in the job.

But the first job was to die while fighting Syn's creation. Clearly, he failed. But that's really only because he was given poor instruction in the matter.

After that... what was his job? It seems like he bought the car while on the payroll for working out at the railyard. Not actually doing anything, just waiting for an assignment.

So I suppose it was just a retainer type position after that first one, waiting for the next model to come roll out and defeat him. Except this time he wasn't allowed to die... for some reason.

I wonder if Buddy would have stepped in and kept him from being killed if he'd have lost to the thing the first time around? He seemed to be in a poor position to interfere.