Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?

[Manga Shoggoth]

I wonder if Buddy would have stepped in and kept him from being killed if he'd have lost to the thing the first time around? He seemed to be in a poor position to interfere.

That's an interesting question. One of the major points of the exercise was Syndrome's revenge against the percieved slight from Mr Incredible. This is made very clear with Syndrome's grandstanding in the second fight - Syndrome really wanted to rub Mr Incredible's nose in it.

So... If Mr Incredible was killed by the first onmidroid then the revenge part would have been a complete waste of time.

I suspect that if the onmidroid looked to be getting the upper hand then some "coincidental" problem would have caused it to stop working. Then - knowing that the omnidroid was superior - Syndrome could call Mr Incredible back for the proper revenge match.

That means that the really dumb move was that Syndrome revealed himself before the second fight. If he wanted to grandstand then he should have confirmed that the omnidroid was better than Mr Incredible first. Instead, he (I assume) threw in a few upgrades and assumed that the omnidroid had gone from "not quite matching Mr Incredible" to "clearly exceeding Mr Incredible".

...Or perhaps he was running out of Supers to test it with. Frozone and Elasti-girl probably weren't considered powerful enough.

EDIT:

After that... what was his job? It seems like he bought the car while on the payroll for working out at the railyard. Not actually doing anything, just waiting for an assignment.

I expect he would have been payed a LOT of mony for the job - extreme hazard pay, so to speak. No need to assume he was on the payroll or on retainer at all.

As to the exercising, I think that the fight made him realise that he was really out of condition, so he started training. I don't think Syndrome expected this, which is partly why Mr Incredible managed to escape the omnidroid's clutches the second time. (The other reason being that Syndrome was being a complete moron).

[pendell]

Short response: Syndrome is Nale, making needlessly-complicated revenge for slights which are out of all proportion to the original offense.

I sympathize with "ordinary geek who can defeat superheroes through technology and money". That's been done right by Batman and (less right, but still on the hero side) by Frank Castle. Saving innocents and stopping villainous plans to destroy the world with courage, intelligence and cunning would make Syndrome a hero. Instead, he's a psychopath and a self-admitted murderer. That's not a hero.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Nerd-o-rama]

But the first job was to die while fighting Syn's creation. Clearly, he failed. But that's really only because he was given poor instruction in the matter.

After that... what was his job? It seems like he bought the car while on the payroll for working out at the railyard. Not actually doing anything, just waiting for an assignment.

His pay for the first job was "triple his current annual salary" - given that he was comfortably if miserably supporting his wife and three dependents on his "current annual salary", this means his pay for his first job was probably somewhere between $250,000 and $300,000 in 2012 dollars (significantly less if the movie does in fact take place in the early 70's or whatever, but an equivalent accounting for inflation and cost of living increases). And this is all untaxed, since it was an under-the-table job; even if you actually are the government, you don't tell the IRS about who you paid to do your black ops (and this is fiction, so Bob doesn't need to worry about an audit even if he's the kind of person who would). In other words, just the pay from the first job would leave Bob Parr well flush with cash for a long time, even after buying a fancy sports car.


All that said, it's really a side note to this whole argument. To anyone who thinks Syndrome is anywhere close to something resembling a hero, and not an obsessive narcissistic serial killer, please go re-watch the film and pay attention to what Syndrome actually does - premeditated murder, conspiracy, serial murder, wanton acts of destruction to inflate his own self-image, torture, selling superweapons to the highest bidder (even pre-Iron Man ******* movie Tony Stark thought he stopped short of that), throwing his loyal "sidekick" under the bus to save his own neck (after she saved his)...and what does he do that's "good"? Offer superpowers to everyone? Specifically, whoever can afford to pay him scads of money for them, regardless of who they are or anything remotely resembling a sense of responsibility?

If you still think he's your kind of "hero", I have a few books you might enjoy.

[Fragenstein]

I expect he would have been payed a LOT of mony for the job - extreme hazard pay, so to speak. No need to assume he was on the payroll or on retainer at all.

That's right. Mirage stated it was triple his yearly salary. Plus I think we've established he was never really the guy to think things through. He might have even blown a fair chunk of it on the car if he assumed more checks were to follow.

As to the exercising, I think that the fight made him realise that he was really out of condition, so he started training. I don't think Syndrome expected this, which is partly why Mr Incredible managed to escape the omnidroid's clutches the second time. (The other reason being that Syndrome was being a complete moron).

Well yeah. His reasons for getting back into shape were never in question. I was just wondering if he was being paid that entire time. It was, what, a month? Maybe he wasn't.

But I don't think Syndrome jumped the gun on the last fight. Mr. Incredible was inches from decapitation. The first droid was able to cut him, there's no real reason to assume the upgraded version couldn't. It had him helpless with a spinning-blade-of-death at his throat.


EDIT: Ninja'd!

To anyone who thinks Syndrome is anywhere close to something resembling a hero, and not an obsessive narcissistic serial killer, please go re-watch the film and pay attention to what Syndrome actually does...

Well I did call him a tool...

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

His pay for the first job was "triple his current annual salary" - given that he was comfortably if miserably supporting his wife and three dependents on his "current annual salary", this means his pay for his first job was probably somewhere between $250,000 and $300,000 in 2012 dollars (significantly less if the movie does in fact take place in the early 70's or whatever, but an equivalent accounting for inflation and cost of living increases). And this is all untaxed, since it was an under-the-table job; even if you actually are the government, you don't tell the IRS about who you paid to do your black ops (and this is fiction, so Bob doesn't need to worry about an audit even if he's the kind of person who would). In other words, just the pay from the first job would leave Bob Parr well flush with cash for a long time, even after buying a fancy sports car.


All that said, it's really a side note to this whole argument. To anyone who thinks Syndrome is anywhere close to something resembling a hero, and not an obsessive narcissistic serial killer, please go re-watch the film and pay attention to what Syndrome actually does - premeditated murder, conspiracy, serial murder, wanton acts of destruction to inflate his own self-image, torture, selling superweapons to the highest bidder (even pre-Iron Man ******* movie Tony Stark thought he stopped short of that), throwing his loyal "sidekick" under the bus to save his own neck (after she saved his)...and what does he do that's "good"? Offer superpowers to everyone? Specifically, whoever can afford to pay him scads of money for them, regardless of who they are or anything remotely resembling a sense of responsibility?

If you still think he's your kind of "hero", I have a few books you might enjoy.

Spoiler

Show

I don't think Syndrome can be compared with Richard "removed everyone's souls" Rahl. Sure Syndrome does villainous things, but Richard butchers innocents (including friends) on a regular basis.

[Knaight]

His pay for the first job was "triple his current annual salary" - given that he was comfortably if miserably supporting his wife and three dependents on his "current annual salary", this means his pay for his first job was probably somewhere between $250,000 and $300,000 in 2012 dollars (significantly less if the movie does in fact take place in the early 70's or whatever, but an equivalent accounting for inflation and cost of living increases). And this is all untaxed, since it was an under-the-table job; even if you actually are the government, you don't tell the IRS about who you paid to do your black ops (and this is fiction, so Bob doesn't need to worry about an audit even if he's the kind of person who would). In other words, just the pay from the first job would leave Bob Parr well flush with cash for a long time, even after buying a fancy sports car.

2010 median pay of insurance sales agents was $46,770 in the U.S. Given that Bob is male we can assume that his pay is higher than that, but that puts us closer to the $150,000 to $200,000 range than the $250,000 to 300,000 range.

[dehro]

But the first job was to die while fighting Syn's creation. Clearly, he failed. But that's really only because he was given poor instruction in the matter.

After that... what was his job? It seems like he bought the car while on the payroll for working out at the railyard. Not actually doing anything, just waiting for an assignment.

So I suppose it was just a retainer type position after that first one, waiting for the next model to come roll out and defeat him. Except this time he wasn't allowed to die... for some reason.

I wonder if Buddy would have stepped in and kept him from being killed if he'd have lost to the thing the first time around? He seemed to be in a poor position to interfere.

he got 3 times his yearly wages for his first assignement and was told more would follow..which did.
the job he was paid for (and actually failed at) was to disable the robot without damaging it too much..which is the bit he failed at. that they intended him to die has nothing to do with his contractual position

[Fragenstein]

he got 3 times his yearly wages for his first assignement and was told more would follow..which did.
the job he was paid for (and actually failed at) was to disable the robot without damaging it too much..which is the bit he failed at. that they intended him to die has nothing to do with his contractual position

Yeah, I did acknowlege the payment below... which was then wiped out by an edit... which I then went back and repaired.

But he did manage to disable the omnidroid with only ripping off one camera and putting a few holes into it. It was mostly intact, including the whatever vital part it was he ultimately tricked it into targeting. Some power coupling or A.I. unit. He was shown analysing it from the inside during the first fight and exploited the same weakness in the second.

Now there was a mistake on Buddy's part. Knowing how it was taken down the first time, why not move that part? Give it better protection? Perhaps a backup unit?

It seems he just concentrated on making it bigger and badder... which I suppose was the entire point; letting his ego get in the way where Mr. Incredible was concerned.

[Tavar]

But the first job was to die while fighting Syn's creation. Clearly, he failed. But that's really only because he was given poor instruction in the matter.

After that... what was his job? It seems like he bought the car while on the payroll for working out at the railyard. Not actually doing anything, just waiting for an assignment.

Retainer Agreements are something that exists in real life.

Also, dying to the thing was only one goal. The other goal, and more important one, was to test the device to the limits of its capabilities, to see which areas could be improved upon. Neither of which were specified to him, but then they were lying to him.

[Nerd-o-rama]

2010 median pay of insurance sales agents was $46,770 in the U.S. Given that Bob is male we can assume that his pay is higher than that, but that puts us closer to the $150,000 to $200,000 range than the $250,000 to 300,000 range.

I didn't look it up, I was just spitballing based on the fact that he and Helen could support three kids on one salary. Then again, housing was really a lot cheaper back then, and his pre-lawsuit debt (if he had any) was probably wiped as part of his deal with the government to go underground and stay there. I know most of my bills are friggin' student loans, which wouldn't have been nearly so harsh if Bob went to college in the 40's or early 50's (and would be non-existent if he ever served in the military, but there's no indication that he did other than the movie's vague timeline and statistical probability.)

Also, I think he was a claims adjuster.

Spoiler

Show

I don't think Syndrome can be compared with Richard "removed everyone's souls" Rahl. Sure Syndrome does villainous things, but Richard butchers innocents (including friends) on a regular basis.

Well, this is a kids' movie (yes, yes, jet engines, I know). Unleashing a killer robot on a densely populated city (at least he apparently did it on a Sunday?) and hurling about gas trucks like a jackass probably counts as attempted butchering of innocents, at least.

[Fragenstein]

Retainer Agreements are something that exists in real life.

Also, dying to the thing was only one goal. The other goal, and more important one, was to test the device to the limits of its capabilities, to see which areas could be improved upon. Neither of which were specified to him, but then they were lying to him.

Sure retainers exist, but the question is whether it was actually a valid job or just part of a con. Or even if there's a distinction between the two.

And I don't think Syndrome really had testing in mind. Remember some of his quotes:

"Surprising, we must bring him back."

"You know, I went through quite a few supers to get it worthy to fight you, but man, it wasn't good enough!"

I think he honestly meant for Mr. Incredible to die. So if the entire job offer was a ruse, was he actually earning a paycheck? Or was Syndrome just giving him money as part of a larger plot?

[Tavar]

Well, of course he was given the money as some larger plot. But Mr. Incredible can't have known that, which is what actually matters for judging his actions.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe he was running a two-stage revenge plot? He hated Mr. Incredible, but it's obvious he also hated the whole superhero institution almost as much as he hated Incredible personally. That splits his plan into two concurrent but technically independent aspects - if the Omnidroid kills Mr. Incredible, he gets his first revenge then proceeds to enact his second revenge. If Mr. Incredible wins, he upgrades the Omnidroid and repeats the process as many times as necessary - once he's killed Mr. Incredible, he knows the plot is ready to deploy because his warped hero-worship/hatred considers Mr. Incredible to be the best, so his robot will beat anyone else.

[Fragenstein]

Well, of course he was given the money as some larger plot. But Mr. Incredible can't have known that, which is what actually matters for judging his actions.

Not if we're considering the legality of the purchase of the car. If the money used to buy it was part of Syndrome's assets that were seized at the end of the movie, it might not have been a legal purchase. We see that all the time when it comes to prosecuting organized crime. A person could have their house, their car and any other possession taken away if the courts decide that they were bought with profits from their crimes.

So if it wasn't a legal purchase, was it even Mr. Incredible's car at that point?

Maybe he was running a two-stage revenge plot? He hated Mr. Incredible, but it's obvious he also hated the whole superhero institution almost as much as he hated Incredible personally. That splits his plan into two concurrent but technically independent aspects - if the Omnidroid kills Mr. Incredible, he gets his first revenge then proceeds to enact his second revenge. If Mr. Incredible wins, he upgrades the Omnidroid and repeats the process as many times as necessary - once he's killed Mr. Incredible, he knows the plot is ready to deploy because his warped hero-worship/hatred considers Mr. Incredible to be the best, so his robot will beat anyone else.

I think he was planning on Mr. Incredible being killed by Ominidroid 08 (Or '9000', according to Mirage). After it was defeated, he decided to rub Bob's nose in the fact that the next model overpowered him. It was then that he decided it would be more fun to have the hero watch him capture the world's adoration for a while.

I don't think there was ever a real plan to need a version 09.

[Tavar]

Perhaps, but in that case it's not Sydromes car, either.

In addition, it's not clear just how illegal all parts of Sydromes operations were. If he was a legitimate weapons developer, would funds from that part of the company be confiscated? Oh, they would certainly be frozen, until they were sure Syndrome had been caught, and thus his ability to access them for illegal purposes was curtailed, but that doesn't mean every employee from his legitimate businesses would be losing their house and possessions.

Furthermore, it's not clear how illegal Mr. Incredible's actions were. I'm not an expert on such matters, but would someone who was employed in an entirely legal manner, and who preformed entirely legal actions while employed, lose possessions? Especially if at the time they did not know of the illegal side of things?

As for the plan, I'm not so sure. Yes, he seemed to think that it would be strong enough, but he was also still going to test it on other supers. It seems completely counter to his established method(as evidenced by the previous tests) to no consider the fact he might need to redesign the machine.

[Misery Esquire]

And this is all untaxed, since it was an under-the-table job; even if you actually are the government, you don't tell the IRS about who you paid to do your black ops...

For some reason I have the hilarious image of a Tax receipt that reads

$150,000
One-Hundred And Fifty Thousand Dollars
For Special Operations Services Concluded In _________

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, almost forgot the part where Syndrome blithely (thinks he) murders a man's wife and children in front of him while he is begging for their lives and then proceeds to mock him about it.

Clearly this is just Mr. Incredible's earned comeuppance for copping an attitude fifteen years ago, right?

For some reason I have the hilarious image of a Tax receipt that reads

$150,000
One-Hundred And Fifty Thousand Dollars
For Special Operations Services Concluded In _________

If it was a real government project, it'd be paid in cash and the government expenditure would be marked on their books as $150,000 worth of toilet seats and office supplies disbursed to the Hawaii Department of Fish and Game.

[Fragenstein]

Perhaps, but in that case it's not Sydromes car, either.

In addition, it's not clear just how illegal all parts of Sydromes operations were. If he was a legitimate weapons developer, would funds from that part of the company be confiscated? Oh, they would certainly be frozen, until they were sure Syndrome had been caught, and thus his ability to access them for illegal purposes was curtailed, but that doesn't mean every employee from his legitimate businesses would be losing their house and possessions.

Furthermore, it's not clear how illegal Mr. Incredible's actions were. I'm not an expert on such matters, but would someone who was employed in an entirely legal manner, and who preformed entirely legal actions while employed, lose possessions? Especially if at the time they did not know of the illegal side of things?

As for the plan, I'm not so sure. Yes, he seemed to think that it would be strong enough, but he was also still going to test it on other supers. It seems completely counter to his established method(as evidenced by the previous tests) to no consider the fact he might need to redesign the machine.

Well it is stated clearly during the limo ride that all of Syndrome's assets have been frozen by the government. I believe they were prosecuting him as a terrorist, giving them the rights to seize any assets associated with the unnamed island organization that he ran.

So not only did Bob whip a car into some poor shmoe's house, but he was also tampering with federal evidence?

And I can buy that Syndrome was so consumed with overcoming Mr. Incredible's strength and invulnerability that he lost sight of covering the Omnidroid's demonstrated weakness. He just wanted more power, more mass and more lethality.

Oh, almost forgot the part where Syndrome blithely (thinks he) murders a man's wife and children in front of him while he is begging for their lives and then proceeds to mock him about it.

Well I did call the man a tool, I keep saying that...

[Tavar]

Ah, but did the right to seize any asset does not mean they seized every asset. In addition, is it even an asset of the company? Again, if someone is a legal employee, and receives payment for entirely legal services, is that payment then liable to be seized?

[Selrahc]

If it was a real government project, it'd be paid in cash and the government expenditure would be marked on their books as $150,000 worth of toilet seats and office supplies disbursed to the Hawaii Department of Fish and Game.

Uh... why? The military and black ops both have budgets, even if the records of exact spendings are confidential. It would just go down as part of that if it was within the government. And a defence contractor hiring a specialist consultant isn't exactly something heinous enough to need to hide within dummy purchases.

[Fragenstein]

Ah, but did the right to seize any asset does not mean they seized every asset. In addition, is it even an asset of the company? Again, if someone is a legal employee, and receives payment for entirely legal services, is that payment then liable to be seized?

As part of a federal investigation and a suspicious amount? Probably. A payment three times the average household income made in one lump deposit by a terrorist organization just a month prior to attacking a major city?

I think they're going to want to know where that money went and what role Bob had in helping to design Omnidroid 09. Remember that we're not dealing with the common comic book world, but rather one in which supers are demonstrably prosecuted in the execution of their heroic duties.

[Tavar]

Considering that they were talking to at least some of the Federals in question in the car, that's a rather large assumption.

And, if they did do such a thing, they would be required to inform him of the seizure, yes? Especially since Bob Parr is quite obviously not Syndrome, and thus a seizure of the latter's assets does not necessarily include the former's.

[Fragenstein]

Considering that they were talking to at least some of the Federals in question in the car, that's a rather large assumption.

And, if they did do such a thing, they would be required to inform him of the seizure, yes? Especially since Bob Parr is quite obviously not Syndrome, and thus a seizure of the latter's assets does not necessarily include the former's.

Well, they were talking to one agent with waning influence who'd gotten the investigation started. Once the payment came to the attention of the court system, who knows what might happen. The question of legality can be retroactively applied, it can get tricky.

Maybe some day a different set of agents will show up at the Parr residence asking for an accounting of Syndrome's payment. At that point he'll have to explain how he no longer has the expensive car bought with terrorist money because he threw it at a jet which was hovering at low altitude over a residential district. All in the name of saving lives.

I know, I know. We're supposed to take the ending of the movie as all of the supers being forgiven and allowed to return to duty. But... really? In a world where they can be prosecuted for collateral damage and aggressive suicide prevention, anything can happen.

Perhaps that's a fault of their civil circuits. I can't really picture the Judicial branch holding the Executive so fiscally responsible as to nearly bankrupt the system.

[dehro]

I don't know a thing about the american legal system.. however... I don't seem to have noticed the arrest and indictement of any of the Madoffs of this world involving the seizure of the properties of his/their employees, however acquired through the salaries paid to them by a conman.
as for the figures that I've seen being thrown about.. what time-period are we considering here? for some reason I see the setting of the movie as a mock-fifties/sixties.. with a few technological developments. (kind of a early james bond days)
I would figure that if any sort of deep analysis must be made on the background and legalities of a Disney cartoon, then the time period should have some relevance..
If my perception of the time period is accurate, then also the laws and economic situation used in the debate should reflect this.
it seems to me that average salaries back in the 50s allowed for stay-at-home mums.

[Misery Esquire]

it seems to me that average salaries back in the 50s allowed for stay-at-home mums.

More so, the average expenditure was lower, rather than the wages higher.

Ie ; We buy a lot of junk (for a given value of junk) today.

[dehro]

More so, the average expenditure was lower, rather than the wages higher.

Ie ; We buy a lot of junk (for a given value of junk) today.

same difference, as long as we take it into account in the debate

[Tavar]

It's not simply that, thought that may be a part. Basically, at least in the US, wages have not kept up with prices.

Well, they were talking to one agent with waning influence who'd gotten the investigation started. Once the payment came to the attention of the court system, who knows what might happen. The question of legality can be retroactively applied, it can get tricky.

Maybe some day a different set of agents will show up at the Parr residence asking for an accounting of Syndrome's payment. At that point he'll have to explain how he no longer has the expensive car bought with terrorist money because he threw it at a jet which was hovering at low altitude over a residential district. All in the name of saving lives.

We don't actually know if his influence is waning, and if the Supers are coming back that would seem to give his position a huge boost. Also, consider that the Incredibles would likely have spoken to him to tell their side of the story, which might also give them some buffer.

I'm not sure of what point you are making, though. If they did question him of that fact, what could come of it? The asset was destroyed before any request regarding it's seizure were filed. What case could the government make at that point? That he destroyed his own private property? Yes, they would question him, but that doesn't mean anything. The police question witnesses to crimes. Those witnesses aren't then charged with a crime themselves automatically.

Also, of course, there's the fact that we see the family some time later, and they don't seem to have been hit by a massive criminal ruling against them. Sure, you could make one up, but at that point you're pretty much changing the canon of the story.

I know, I know. We're supposed to take the ending of the movie as all of the supers being forgiven and allowed to return to duty. But... really? In a world where they can be prosecuted for collateral damage and aggressive suicide prevention, anything can happen.

Perhaps that's a fault of their civil circuits. I can't really picture the Judicial branch holding the Executive so fiscally responsible as to nearly bankrupt the system.

I'd say it's explicitly the problem of poor PR and bad laws. If I'm injured because a train was stopped suddenly, with the alternative being dead because the train horribly crashing due to a bombed out section of tracks, I don't feel I should have any right to sue the person who stopped the train.

The fact that preventing a mass death like that turned into bad public perception is a sign of horrible PR.

The Suicide Prevention is a more complicated issue, as it runs into the whole "should suicide be a crime thing". Still, if it is a crime, I'm not certain how viable it should be to sue someone for stopping a crime. Seems it would give precedent for a Mugger to sue a policeman for intervening in a mugging.

[Rake21]

I... I think we got off topic a bit. What with the discussion of earned wages and the legality of chucking your car at a super villain.

If I may get us back on track, I believe we were all continually pointing out that Syndrome is kind of an *******.

[Tebryn]

It's easy to get off track when the core discussion is rather apparent. No one but Sunken is arguing for Syndrome being a hero.

[Fragenstein]

We don't actually know if his influence is waning, and if the Supers are coming back that would seem to give his position a huge boost. Also, consider that the Incredibles would likely have spoken to him to tell their side of the story, which might also give them some buffer.

He's been through this enough that he already knows their side. And remember his air of resignation in the elevator ride out of the insurance building. He struggled to think of what last few strings he could pull at great cost to get Bob relocated again. That wasn't a power player. That was a the guy who allowed the madness to start all over again.

I'm not sure of what point you are making, though. If they did question him of that fact, what could come of it? The asset was destroyed before any request regarding it's seizure were filed. What case could the government make at that point? That he destroyed his own private property? Yes, they would question him, but that doesn't mean anything. The police question witnesses to crimes. Those witnesses aren't then charged with a crime themselves automatically.

I dunno either. I just like helping out the underdog. And arguing.

I believe we were trying to establish the legal ownership of the car which was so carelessly thrown. The exact reasons for establishing such need no longer apply.

I want to know who's car was turned into who's luxury treehouse.

Also, of course, there's the fact that we see the family some time later, and they don't seem to have been hit by a massive criminal ruling against them. Sure, you could make one up, but at that point you're pretty much changing the canon of the story.

No, they don't, as I'd mentioned. A shame. Apparently the government and the citizens just needed some time to cool down before opening up to their heroes once again. So it'll only be a matter of time before a guy with motor oil all over his living room and another with a burning jet engine where his doghouse used to be comes looking for answers.

The Suicide Prevention is a more complicated issue, as it runs into the whole "should suicide be a crime thing". Still, if it is a crime, I'm not certain how viable it should be to sue someone for stopping a crime. Seems it would give precedent for a Mugger to sue a policeman for intervening in a mugging.

That thought struck me even as it happened. Where in the U.S. is suicide legal? Bob was stopping a crime, keeping a man from dying. That's going to have to be a civil issue in seeking recompense. I'm just baffled that the Feds ended up eating the bill.