Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Mauve Shirt]

I do hope we get into Ferrovax soon. Wouldn't it be interesting to have a Winter Lady vs. Ferrovax book? I choose Winter Lady because she's the only superpower who through some weird magic law hereditary thing might have some kind of beef-ish with dragons.
Not that a superpower needs to have a beef with a dragon in order to get Harry involved. Winter just needs a beef with a dragon. Or a dragon needs to threaten a female.
Ferrovax Hates Molly seems better the more I think about it.

[123456789blaaa]

Sorry for the late reply (and call me Count ):

@123456789blaaa:

A couple of standout problems with your post

1: That Cowl must be an "SC level wizard" as your standpoint. We know Cowl is better then Harry. However Harry also considered Morgan and Luccio better then him yet not SC considered, while Ramirez and Elaine are peers. Given the centuries of difference there's still room for argument about where Cowl falls. (And "SC level" shouldn't be taken to equal combat prowess either)

A reminder that I was not the one that wrote the stuff in the spoiler. I'd hate to get undeserved credit for something someone else did .

Anyways, here's the exact quote that convinced me that Cowl was at least SC level:

Quote from: Dead Beat

I've traded practice blows with my old master Justin DuMorne, himself at one time a Warden. I fought him in earnest, too, and won. I've tested my strength in practice duels against the mentor who succeeded him, Ebenezar McCoy. My faerie godmother, the Leanansidhe, has a seriously nasty right hook, metaphysically speaking, and I've even gone up against the least of the Queens of Faerie. Throw in a couple of demons, various magical constructs, a thirteen-story fall in a runaway elevator, half a dozen spellslingers of one amount of nasty or another, and I've seen more sheer mystic violence than most wizards in the business. I've beaten them all, or at least survived them, and I've got the scars to show for it.
Cowl hit me harder than any of them.

It's the bolded part that really convinced me. I can't remember when he fought Lea but it seems to me that the SC wizards are more powerful than the Ladies.

As for SC level not neccesarily meaning combat power...you're absolutely right (we even have a WoJ that Ancient Mai didn't participate in beating up Kemmler because her talents don't lie in combat magic). However, I think it's safe to assume that higher-than-faerie-lady combat power=SC level (LTW went toe-to-toe with a Naagloshii and the merlin created a ward that stopped an entire army. Neither were combat specialists; that's Eb's area).

2. In Summer Knight there were a lot of names ahead of Ebenezar and Klaus for SC, nomination. Maybe "pyramid sitting" or "he got real married" is a clever excuse to let Cowl do all his evil plans. To say nothing of whom might have been next after them. SC membership is clearly a volunteer job with some politics beyond just ability. So we really can't create a closed lists of suspects to eliminate from at all.

Given the HUGE amount of power that we now know SC level wizards possess in their specialties, I think it's probable that Jim had a much lower power level in mind for the Dresdenverse in the beggining books.

Consider how lame it would be to have us find out who Cowl really is!...and have his identity be some potential SC nominee that we've never seen. Laaaaaame

Having Simon be Cowl would open up some great storytelling goodness (see the two reasons I posted earlier).

3. In addition we know from the existence of Grevane and Corpse Taker that wizard level talents are not monopolized by the White Council. So again no closed list of suspects.

Yup. I'm not sure myself why the OP made that assumption but I asked so when he replies I'll post it here.

While there isn't anything I can think of that would create a truly closed list of suspects, there are some reasons that make it more likely that Cowl is someone in the White Council. They are:

1) He has inside info on the White Council. He knows that there is a traitor (he could be getting the information from Peabody though)

2) W haven't seen any indication that there are SC level human wizards outside the SC. The only SC level wizards we've seen outside the WC are nonhuman.

3) It would be sort of lame (see above)

4) They would have to know about Bob

I freely admit that this is the weakest part of the theory.

4. You say different personalities between Cowl and Justin... any specifics? I'd not want to judge from limited experience, but I see some similarities. I saw both being business-like, but not without humor. I also think we haven't had a flashback to the duel between Harry an Justin for a reason. What that is don't know... but still somehow Cowl knew Harry had Bob.

I don't recall Justin having much of a sense of humor. He was somewhat forgiving of cleverness (I am basing this off the scene where Harry try's to cheat with the lighter) but I cannot recall him ever appreciating a joke or making one of his own.

He seemed like a very serious, controlled person (remember Harry recalling how Justin used to beat him silently?). The only time he ever lost control (in our limited experience) was when Harry came home early after Justin finished enthralling Elaine. I consider this break in normal character justified since the moment was such a huge, horrible disaster for Justin.

His personality doesn't seem to fit Cowl's (IMO) since he appreciated Harry's defiance but still lost his temper (neither of which I think Justin would have done).

Now with all that said I do think Justin is the most likely candidate for Cowl among the known characters if we exlude Simon (it's very suspicious that a 16-year old apprentice was able to defeat a powerfull Warden in single combat plus like you said, we haven't flashbacked to the duel itself).

5. You speculate shameless almost everything about Simon. You only cite one thing not speculation with there being a female apprentice, but the first results for Paranet Files Preview was a fanfiction and the tabletop RPG. The latter did we know did a reasonable job, but need confirmation its WoJ not something they made themselves. Also a female apprentice is not notable or suggestive, just saying. Really only starts to look like evidence if you take Simon Cowl as the starting point not conclusion. I think you are indulging in sharpshooting.

I think that my speculations are reasonable. Could you list a few of the worst examples IYO?

The RPG is intended to serve as a legitimate fanguide by WOJ. If Simon has a female apprentice in the Paranet Papers he has them in DV (unless it's really important for the books that the in-character writers are wrong).

The mentioning of the female apprentice was intended to be an example of circumsantial evidence, not direct evidence.

6. Simon's case is basically "he's supposed to be dead, but we don't see it happen, and he was Senior Council." Now because Simon was SC isn't entirely nuts or anything, but he has no real arguments for him. Just that by being a blank slate he doesn't have outstanding reasons against. As I said though we don't have a limited suspect list though so can't do process of elimination to shore that up.

From a Doylist perspective it makes a lot of sense for Simon to be Cowl.

Basically, I think that out of all the known characters, Simon is the one with the best case. I'm not trying to argue that the Simon=Cowl theory is ironclad.

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Expanding on point .5, mortals as a whole also tend to be heavily dependent on heirarchy in combat situations - screaming mobs are scary, but their only advantage in a fight is numbers/density. Any of the supernatural factions could severely hamper any attempt by mortals to organize against them.

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Really, an all-out war with the supernatural close to earth (more on this later) would not be the slaughterfest a lot of people imagine.

The supes have far superior knowledge (the NN alone is an indefensible border) and incredible powers. Sure in a straight fight mortals would probably win but the supes wouldn't give them a straight fight. An example would be attacking power source centers.

To win the supes would have to create as much chaos and disorganization as possible in the shortest amount of time possible (a little under a year at most) and than move in to take control. The supes wouldn't be able to kill most of the humans (and wouldn't want to anyways).

This does assume a lot of things. I'm assuming that beings like Mab wouldn't be able to enter the fray and I'm assuming that things in the deep NN that don't care about humanity don't join in. If they do than we are screwed (Harry mentions that they're the ones with the numbers advantage as mentioned in the short story Heorot). I'm also assuming that extremely powerfull magic like the Shroud of Turin and Time Travel wouldn't be used for one reason or another (if they are than the above would go a lot quicker)

By the way, what do you think of Simon=Cowl now that I've presented my case?

<snip>
Exactly and pseudo-science is nothing to do with science. It can only go to a point and then becomes "that's impossible!" where the magic takes over entirely.

Don't confuse effect with process.

Certainly its not purely genetic, unless Charity isn't aging and will be around to badger Molly for another century or more. Suppressing your magical talent until you can't use it shouldn't effect a fact of your body's cellular reproduction. The wizard body is seemingly a side effect of the magical talent. While Butters has told us the science end result, the effect probably has more to do with an idea like "you are tapping into the force of the universe and filling yourself with life itself on a regular basis" thus promoting wellness. Or exercise for the spirit having a sympathetic magic type thaumaturgical reaction with the body.

The Dresdenverse uses pure magic without any science end mumbo-jumbo attached quite often too remember. Circles and Thresholds, sure Harry uses "energy" to describe some of that, but its not something anywhere close to physics being able to describe. Or why the Ways can have emotional connections, you go to a spooky place and you open a Way and chances are its a spooky part of the Nevernever. Or heck how emotions power magic, what's the numerical value on emotions and how do they convert to joules?

Now sure philosophically this might all work out so that the magic including science of the Dresdenverse is out there. There might even be a mathematical value for something like willpower to be found measured and used. But what we know of magic and what we know of physics isn't enough to get us there. And its equally possible (and philosophically probable) that the Dresdenverse is not reducable universally to numbers and thus is not scientific (from our perspective, it would be from its own) because it cannot fundamentally be measured and analyzed completely.

Relevant WoJ's:

I’ve been wondering, is a magic-users longevity/ability to repair themselves due to their use of magic, or is it because they are able to access magic at all?
It’s because they /use/ magic.
Charity Carpenter was able to use magic at one point; will she have an extended life?
Not unless she takes it up again, which would be extremely difficult and which she doesn’t want to do.
And is the longevity tied to strength levels, as in do stronger wizards live longer?
Indeed. In the Dresden Files universe, magic is the essence of creation itself. Constant exposure to it through use changes the person who uses it in a number of ways, not all of them as obvious as physical recovery and longevity. The more exposure, the more dramatic the changes.

Incidently, the last WoJ gives another reason why membership on the SC council is partially based on age.

Oh it can be understood (to a point) as a heat engine... but that's still effect not process oriented. Doing that in actual science demands well, an engine which you can't just do out of nothing. We can't just manipulate heat which is were the magic comes in.

Also Harry isn't producing hot air (the result of heat exchange) he's producing fire. We've been in his head and I can't recall him ever mentioning any of the fire triangle/pyramid pieces.

Harry makes fire but in the classical element sense. Which is fine really for since the beauty of the idea is that he can have these blind spots and make it still work. As Harry says magic is really all about will, his entire approach to magic is really a mental foci like his blasting rod is a physical one.

Now his dual elemental use is another mixed metaphor. Since he recognizes a relationship between the fire and ice (even if its technically nonsense) he can connect them with his own loose relationship framework and make it work.



That's an awesome concept. I've wanted something in the Dresdenverse not actually from Harry's point of view for quite awhile now. Though I'm not sure Jim Butcher is up to it per say. Because Thomas/Marcone/Murphy spent their stories convincing me how much like Harry they really are.

(For that matter I swear Molly's noodle incident in Cold Days feels like a plug for one. Is there one out there?)

That's all moving to another issue. Kinda make you wonder if Harry's early assumptions about Molly have permanently shaped her magic? And maybe Harry himself is a brawny arse bastard because that's what Justin intended. With Justin able to overpower Elaine and out-finesse Harry.



I personally think you are spot on here.

My personal theory is that reality (I don't think I'm using the right word...) acts as an "interpreter" for the magic users desires. So he thinks "fire" and focuses his will and his desire (get your mind out of the gutter ) is "filtered" through reality and turns into the transfer of heat that produces the effect commonly known as "fire" as imagined in his mind.

Also:

Aftermath is a novelette told in Karrin Murphy's point of view in the The Dresden Files series by Jim Butcher. It is set 45 minutes after Changes.

Even Hand is a short story in the The Dresden Files series by Jim Butcher. It is set between Turn Coat and Changes. It is narrated by Johnny Marcone. It can be found in the book Dark and Stormy Nights.

Backup: A Story of the Dresden Files is a novelette set in The Dresden Files universe, Jim Butcher's continuing series about wizard detective Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. This book is unique in that the story is told from the of view of Thomas Raith, Dresden's older half-brother.

You're welcome

There is also a short story called Bombshells told from Molly's POV that tells the story of [CD Spoilers]:

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the favor she did for the svartelves.

. It will be in the upcoming anthology Dangerous Women.

The classifications are shamelessly manipulated for humor and symmetry. Otherwise, there'd be practically no pure Arrogants, and way too many Arrogant/Powerfuls.

Anyways, Evil Bob is less powerful than regular Bob (except in Bad Stuff), and I used the straight Powerful category for some of the biggest hitters. Jim says Ferrovax can curb stomp Mab and Eldest Gruff at the same time, so it seemed appropriate.

Actually it was Lea and Eldest Gruff.

[Mauve Shirt]

You're welcome

What he meant was in those 3 short stories, Murphy, Marcone and Thomas all sound like Harry on the insides of their heads. They also each point out that they are not Harry Dresden.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's the bolded part that really convinced me. I can't remember when he fought Lea but it seems to me that the SC wizards are more powerful than the Ladies.

Well point of order Cold Days would suggest that given what Harry had experienced until then would not account for complete assessment of the Ladies since he offers the revise opinions to the effect that he would not want to get into a magic duel with them. While Lea really only does have Harry's best interests at heart, I'm not sure when she actually struck him with power either but doubtless she'd call it a love tap or discipline for a petulant childe or something. She certainly proved if she wanted Harry dead he'd be dead as Chitzen Itza.

I'd conclude more that Cowl simply took Harry more seriously then they had. We already know Harry has taken worse since meeting Cowl. In general I think we have to be careful with assessments in general since being first person our narrative is not omniscient.

As for SC level not neccesarily meaning combat power...you're absolutely right (we even have a WoJ that Ancient Mai didn't participate in beating up Kemmler because her talents don't lie in combat magic). However, I think it's safe to assume that higher-than-faerie-lady combat power=SC level (LTW went toe-to-toe with a Naagloshii and the merlin created a ward that stopped an entire army. Neither were combat specialists; that's Eb's area).

The Merlin is IIRC, he and Eb have an old rivalry and were both brawny wizards of age with one another. He defense not offense though, but still combat. I also got the impression Listen to Wind probably had a metaphysical advantage from his background.

I don't disagree that Cowl is probably set up to be capable of throwing down with Ebenezer (who if we get a Gandalf/Dumbledore/etc there it is...) but the problem is that just added to everything you can't really say that Cowl must be and therefore Simon having been on it is not any sort of evidence.

Consider how lame it would be to have us find out who Cowl really is!...and have his identity be some potential SC nominee that we've never seen. Laaaaaame

I always consider "new character" to be the default in the first place. It fairly rare that you can actually solve a "mystery" like this and Butcher already denied us a fair chance to figure out Harry's suicide. No notable hole in Changes that can be filled by our Ghost Story flashback.

I'd not be suprised if say Cowl turned out to be introduced uncowled as a secondary character in an upcoming book, then revealed as Cowl in the climax. I find nothing lame about that approach but its not something we can figure out either.

The real point though isn't that its going to be the unnamed dude under the polar cap, the point was that you don't have any list of suspects to work from. If you have a confined list of suspects then you can eliminate the impossible until only the improbable remains, but we can't establish a confined list of suspects to even begin that process.

Having Simon be Cowl would open up some great storytelling goodness (see the two reasons I posted earlier).

I think it would be rather underwhelming. Like I said we know nothing about Simon Petrovich, that's not a great budding mystery for an eventual dramatic reveal. Its only marginally less random then pulling out a new character.

I'd probably consider it less fulfilling then being one of the sitting Senior Council members. Previously I've seen people speculate say Ebenezer, as he wasn't at Edinburgh during the Darkhallow IIRC though he had a claimed known location.

Simon Petrovich isn't a character, he's an offhand mention who only gets what a few more mentions after that? Realistically for Simon, Harry would dramatically yank back that hood and have the same reaction as someone we've never heard of: Who the heck is that?

La Fortier having faked the dead would be more dramatic (if less probable) then a man who's never played any role we've been told of.

No offense but like most theories I sort this one into "makes the proponent feel smart" over carrying serious water.

1) He has inside info on the White Council. He knows that there is a traitor (he could be getting the information from Peabody though)

You state my own objection. I really don't care for these sort of double traitor ideas.

Especially in Simon's case, what exactly did he do that required him faking the dead to remove himself from the SC. Forget nudging the council with magic ink he can cast a vote outright if he's on the council. Instead he lets one of the few senior wizards without his head up his own arse take his place?

Frankly I think we've dealt with the serious "corruption" of the Council. They're point in the story is to be the obstructive bureaucrats of Harry's life, not evil but worse stupid and ornery. Its why Harry describes the Grey Council as what the White should be. And if anything its seems to be becoming less and less relevant as an organization. Not coincidence after its major plot lines are granted resolution. Peabody was the traitor, and Harry ended the vampire war which is turning out to be just a prelude. I've no doubt they've a role to play but I suspect they are going to continue decreasing in relevance.

Nick's due next book anyways so chances are the Council will be at best supporting role like in Small Favor which would be repetitious putting us at likely three books with them off screen. I don't think there's something big, I think they are just being sidelined as a whole.

4) They would have to know about Bob

Remember we know from Luccio what the Council knows about Bob. That's he's dead. So Justin must have pulled a fast one on his commander to get ahold of Bob, and the Council can't know Harry picked Bob up or Bob would again be dead and likely Harry with him.

I would not really consider Justin suspect at all except for this. Because I can reasonably limit the suspect list from this. It works like this:

Cowl's kidnapping and use of Bob in Dead Beat establishes that he both knew Bob was Kemmler's skull in particular and that Harry had Bob. How could he know this? Harry does not flaunt Bob around yet Cowl targeted Bob specifically. Now sure he could have scry past Harry's wards or observed Bob on a run at some point, but how to connect that to Kemmler.

We know the skull itself isn't that remarkable, Bob knowledge would is not automatically apparent, and well Harry can't be the only wizard that keeps a familiar spirit. More importantly why look at Harry that closely in the first place.

So Cowl must have known to look there in the first place somehow. Well who would know Justin had Bob and that Harry pick him up? Well the short list of people would be Elaine, Ebenezer, and Justin himself.

Ebenezar is least likely but can't be disregarded since we don't have an exact circumstance of when Harry met Bob, yet Harry lived with Eb after so its plausible to know. Of course this demands Ebenezer be Cowl which is problematic with him being attest to be leading the charge while Cowl was in Chicago. Never mind the Grey Council formation, Chitzen Itza, protecting Harry and so forth, its screwy as **** for Ebenezer to be evil.

Cowl is not female so its no Elaine, shifting this to being Kumori... which is possible but I'd also point out that Elaine may not have known Bob anymore then Harry under Justin. Compare Harry's "No-Molly policy", introducing a magical computer to apprentices doesn't seem wise either from the disaster standpoint or from forcing them to develop skills themselves not cheat. And how would she know he was Kemmler's skull the second piece of knowledge? Also this make Elaine Kumori but leaves Cowl unknown that's a little over-complicated.

Oh and it could fourth be anyone that just happened to know Justin had Bob, but since we know he kept it a general secret there good reason to suppose he told no one. Its still possible for sure, but not the simplest explanation.

Justin would of course know he both had Bob, who Bob was, and have perfect reason to know where Bob went by being the other final participant of the fight. Its the simplest explanation for how Cowl knew about Bob.

By the way, what do you think of Simon=Cowl now that I've presented my case?

Its not utterly silly but I feel the case for Justin is best for the above line of thought on Bob

You're welcome

There is also a short story called Bombshells told from Molly's POV that tells the story of [CD Spoilers]:

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the favor she did for the svartelves.

. It will be in the upcoming anthology Dangerous Women.

Huzzah, maybe she won't also be Harry Dresden .

What he meant was in those 3 short stories, Murphy, Marcone and Thomas all sound like Harry on the insides of their heads. They also each point out that they are not Harry Dresden.

In Butcher's defense those character were always pretty evidently a lot like Harry, so it could have been a deliberate case of irony.

It just remains to be seen if we can get an actual non-Harry Dresden perspective on the Dresdenverse.

[Mauve Shirt]

We should talk about how the Eebs are totally the new Mavra and we're going to have some Red Court vampires tearing up Chicago in the next breather book and/or short story.

[SmartAlec]

Its not utterly silly but I feel the case for Justin is best for the above line of thought on Bob.

If so, one thing you may want to consider - that Justin was, in fact, Kemmler.

Consider that Butcher has often told readers that Justin duMorne is dead, dead, dead.

Then consider what we know. Until the conflict with Kemmler, Justin duMorne was seemingly a well-thought-of wizard and Warden. Then, during the aftermath of the battle against Kemmler, Justin takes Bob, goes into seclusion, and begins training two apprentices, conditioning them using mind-magic - a sudden change of personality that has not been adequately explained.

Recall that Kemmler had a student, the Capriocorpus, who was skilled in mind magic - and, also, in the ability to transfer their consciousness from one body to another, a trick that they were able to perform against another Warden in the middle of combat. Presumably, the Capriocorpus learned that from someone.

We know from Luccio that ending up in another body can drastically reduce your personal level of power as you find yourself in another body.

To my mind, the pieces all fit. Justin's actions are perfectly in sync with a dark wizard taking a new body, going into hiding, and working to rebuild their power base.

[GenericMook]

We should talk about how the Eebs are totally the new Mavra and we're going to have some Red Court vampires tearing up Chicago in the next breather book and/or short story.

Aren't they full-fledged Red Courts? I'd assume they'd be, y'know, dead.

[Soras Teva Gee]

If so, one thing you may want to consider - that Justin was, in fact, Kemmler.

Ehh if so then Justin was Kemmler all along anyways.

Personally I don't think hiding in the Mid-West with two child apprentices quite gels right with a man that was a faction onto himself. Not when he's got fully talented loyal wizards out there already. Its all seems bit too low on the ego for a guy we can probably infer was most like Grevane.

Besides this only works with Justin both alive and not-Cowl as Bob-as-Evil-Bob did not treat Cowl as The Master IIRC. Which is interesting but basically is a speculation that goes nowhere since it can't connect directly to any events happening in the series.

Aren't they full-fledged Red Courts? I'd assume they'd be, y'know, dead.

Well there was mention that its possible that vamps in a shielded location of some kind could have survived the spell. Which possibly applies to the Erlking's halls. At the same time they might well have been dead before the spell went off.

(And the Erlking and his goblins let's them go because???)

Too many if in that idea for the moment.

[lord_khaine]

If so, one thing you may want to consider - that Justin was, in fact, Kemmler.

Consider that Butcher has often told readers that Justin duMorne is dead, dead, dead.

It is a funny thing, maybe to "funny" to be dismissed out of hand, though i would have thought Bob would have discovered the change pretty quickly.

[Gryffon]

It is a funny thing, maybe to "funny" to be dismissed out of hand, though i would have thought Bob would have discovered the change pretty quickly.

Unless he was commanded to forget that Kemmler had taken over Justin's body.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Unless he was commanded to forget that Kemmler had taken over Justin's body.

Which is in effect a means not a motive. That it could happen does not provide a reason why and thus does not resolve the problem.

[Gryffon]

Which is in effect a means not a motive. That it could happen does not provide a reason why and thus does not resolve the problem.

Oh, I'm not taking sides, nor trying to solve any particular problem. All I'm saying, is that just because Bob doesn't consciously know that Justin == Kemmler, doesn't preclude it from being so. Fact checking if you will.

If Bob's knowledge was immutable, then he would certainly be able to disprove such a theory. But we've seen where his knowledge can be suppressed so that he doesn't even know he knows it.

[Mewtarthio]

But why would Kemmler want to suppress his own servant's knowledge? Particularly since Bob's suppressed knowledge included pretty much all of Kemmler's research. I can see Justin doing that--Just because he's evil doesn't mean he's too stupid to take the cautious approach--but Kemmler presumably liked Evil Bob just the way he was.

[Mauve Shirt]

Well there was mention that its possible that vamps in a shielded location of some kind could have survived the spell. Which possibly applies to the Erlking's halls. At the same time they might well have been dead before the spell went off.

(And the Erlking and his goblins let's them go because???)

Too many if in that idea for the moment.

Yes. I just can't help but wonder why Jim would have mentioned twice that those who were sheltered away may have survived the blast, while also giving two high-level rampires some plausible shelter, if he didn't mean them to come back and cause trouble. He's a lazy writer.

[GenericMook]

Yes. I just can't help but wonder why Jim would have mentioned twice that those who were sheltered away may have survived the blast, while also giving two high-level rampires some plausible shelter, if he didn't mean them to come back and cause trouble. He's a lazy writer.

Considering that they were in the Erlking's halls, I doubt that they'll be much of a threat. Even if they escaped, I can imagine the Erlking would be chasing them every now and then.

[SmartAlec]

But why would Kemmler want to suppress his own servant's knowledge? Particularly since Bob's suppressed knowledge included pretty much all of Kemmler's research. I can see Justin doing that--Just because he's evil doesn't mean he's too stupid to take the cautious approach--but Kemmler presumably liked Evil Bob just the way he was.

Could be just a standard 'forget you know all my secrets if you fall into someone else's hands' security setup.

[jindra34]

Could be just a standard 'forget you know all my secrets if you fall into someone else's hands' security setup.

Sadly utterly fails, as once Bob is not in your possession, all your orders become mere suggestions. So the minute it falls into someone else's hands, he longer has to obey your orders and goes by the imprint from them and their orders. Meaning you could get quickly countermanded and have given someone all your secrets. The only way Bob can absolutely forget something, past the ordering to remember is to do what he did that created Evil Bob. And that doesn't sound like something the current Bob would want to risk more then it has to.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Could be just a standard 'forget you know all my secrets if you fall into someone else's hands' security setup.

Except Bob treats Justin as a distinct person whom he does discuss with Harry, unlike Kemmler.

Is it possible you could get some squirrely contract to do that kind of thing and hope it never slips and get countermanded... yes in the sense that we can't assert that it didn't happen. Its still speculation to shore up a weakness in speculation, except speculation can do that so it just damages the original idea.

Justin = Kemmler I have to conclude is a Voodoo Shark.

It raises more questions then it answers, and it really answers no questions in the first place. A completely unnecessary speculation.

[Lamech]

Except Bob treats Justin as a distinct person whom he does discuss with Harry, unlike Kemmler.

Is it possible you could get some squirrely contract to do that kind of thing and hope it never slips and get countermanded... yes in the sense that we can't assert that it didn't happen. Its still speculation to shore up a weakness in speculation, except speculation can do that so it just damages the original idea.

Justin = Kemmler I have to conclude is a Voodoo Shark.

It raises more questions then it answers, and it really answers no questions in the first place. A completely unnecessary speculation.

Bob can break off chunks of himself. It would have been possible to pop that knowledge out of Bob.

But that means that Kemmler planned for his death and loss of Bob. So he's what? Building up his power base somewhere? Switched with Elaine?

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Anyway, we now have a better deal to account for Justin's sudden personality change: The Nemesis!

Also I wonder if the plauge Red Court Lady dropped on the WC in Changes was Nemesis...

[DaedalusMkV]

Cold Days Spoilers. Not sure if it's Kosher to post plot points unspoiled yet.

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Out of curiousity, what does Justin=Kemmler explain that Kemmler being influenced by Nemesis and corrupting Justin with it not explain? I thought that that was pretty damned obvious in the wake of this book's revelations, actually. It also provides the corruption vector for Aurora (Kemmler to Justin to Elaine to Aurora, who took in Elaine after Justin died) and explains how Justin was able (and willing) to contact He Who Walks Behind. Seems like the simplest possible solution to me. Of course, it also implies that Elaine is probably still corrupted, which really can't be good in the long run...

Forgive me if this stuff has already been mentioned. I've been avoiding this thread like the plague until I got through Cold Days, so I've only read the last two pages up to this point.

[SmartAlec]

Well, the other odd theory I have, then:

Cowl = The Merlin, Arthur Langtry.

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The Dresden Files is a series with a lot of pop culture references. One of the totems of pop culture that comes up most often is Harry's favourite film, Star Wars - and in Star Wars, the greatest villain of them all was the political genius who played both sides of a war and led a double life - one life as the legitimate leader of the good guys, and the other as a cloaked, sinister figure with an alias. We already know Langtry is a skilled politician; could he be crazy enough to be the villain of the piece?

For this to make even a lick of sense, we need to look at what we know about Cowl, and what we know about Langtry. Is there anything to suggest this might be true?

***

Cowl

Cowl is seemingly human, and uses magic no darker than Dresden's.
Langtry is indeed human, and a wizard like Dresden.

Cowl has insider knowledge of the White Council, and the Wardens.
Langtry would be reading the Warden's reports, and might himself have wondered exactly why the Wardens are so jittery around Dresden.

Cowl manages to hit Dresden harder than he's ever been hit before, with little effort.
There's no finesse in Cowl's attacks, just raw power. Langtry could easily do that; he's the mightiest wizard in the world.

Cowl shrugs off a car falling on his head, survives the Darkhallow explosion, and has defeated death curses during his time.
Langtry is an accredited master of defensive magic.

The attacks that we see Cowl use rely on simple use of magical force.
Langtry is capable of this kind of magic - he uses it to bring the White Council to order early in Summer Knight.

Cowl is noted to speak slowly and clearly in Dead Beat. It's how Dresden is able to understand him over his presumed magical vocoder.
Langtry speaks slowly and clearly out of habit, and manages to be understood by Dresden even when speaking latin because of his precise delivery.

Cowl is amused by something unknown when Dresden calls him a 'master of evil bathrobes'.
Langtry was present at the meeting when Dresden found himself having to attend the White Council while wearing a bathrobe.

Kumori does not seem to give the idea that the White Council can protect her from Cowl any credence.
If Cowl is Langtry, they certainly wouldn't.

Cowl seems to toy with Dresden in Dead Beat, but by White Night, seems to have grown to hate him.
Not only did Dresden stop him from completing the Darkhallow, but this was after Proven Guilty, when Dresden managed to defeat the Merlin in a political showdown. He'd be mad.

***

Langtry

Langtry always has three plans at work to achieve a goal.
Cowl has three subsequent plans in Dead Beat. Plan 1 was to kill Eddie Mendoza; by process of elimination, he is the most likely to simply kill Mendoza without capturing and torturing him for information. Plan 2 was to destroy all copies of Peabody's Erlking book. When Cowl's plans to prevent the Word of Kemmler being found and the Erlking summoned both fail, he moves to Plan 3 - simply perform the Darkhallow ritual himself.

Langtry continually plays defensively in the war against the Red Court, trying to buy time and appease them.
Cowl seemingly has a hand in the Red Court's dealings, if his presence at Bianca's party in Grave Peril is anything to go by. It's interesting to note that Duke Ortega also tries to stall the war, trying to convince Dresden to back down rather than attack Bianca; it's possible that Dresden sparked off a war ahead of Cowl's schedule. If so, Langtry's stubborn strategy of stretching out a cold war for as long as possible makes sense if he's trying to buy time to put his plans back in order.

Langtry's policies call for the execution of young confused warlocks, no questions asked, even in the face of a rising birth rate.
If he's actually trying to weaken the White Council, it's a clever way to go about it.

Langtry has a particular tone of conversation - sometimes long-winded, sometimes commanding or insulting, sometimes vicious, but always superior.
This fits Cowl perfectly. If you read Cowl's dialogue in Langtry's 'voice', the words feel right, IMO.

In Turn Coat, Langtry's self-control breaks a little around Dresden. Dresden suggests Langtry's emotions had become 'a quiet, deadly madness'.
Cowl is already wondering to himself if he's mad as early as Dead Beat.

***

Problems -

When was Langtry ever a student of Kemmler? Cowl states he knows Grevane and the Capriocorpus well, and they know him.
It's unknown exactly when Langtry became the Merlin. As we've seen before, White Council wizards are capable of taking long sabbaticals. It's not unfeasible for Langtry to have spent some time learning from Kemmler at some point in his life.

How is Langtry able to move between Chicago and Sicily in Dead Beat?
Cowl has access to a place in the Nevernever that we keep seeing - a lightless, mildewed forest. Cowl is able to walk into this place in the middle of a Chicago street. In White Night, he opens a door from it in the Raith Deeps. Peabody uses this place to escape from the White Council stronghold in Edinburgh. Wherever this forest is, it seems to link to several places at once, and could possibly allow for speedy travel. There are large portions of Dead Beat in which Cowl's movements are unaccounted for; this was the time when he was being Langtry.

Cold Days Spoilers. Not sure if it's Kosher to post plot points unspoiled yet.

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Of course, it also implies that Elaine is probably still corrupted, which really can't be good in the long run...

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I didn't touch on it above, but I'm half-convinced Kumori = Elaine.

[Lamech]

Cold Days Spoilers. Not sure if it's Kosher to post plot points unspoiled yet.

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Out of curiousity, what does Justin=Kemmler explain that Kemmler being influenced by Nemesis and corrupting Justin with it not explain? I thought that that was pretty damned obvious in the wake of this book's revelations, actually. It also provides the corruption vector for Aurora (Kemmler to Justin to Elaine to Aurora, who took in Elaine after Justin died) and explains how Justin was able (and willing) to contact He Who Walks Behind. Seems like the simplest possible solution to me. Of course, it also implies that Elaine is probably still corrupted, which really can't be good in the long run...

Forgive me if this stuff has already been mentioned. I've been avoiding this thread like the plague until I got through Cold Days, so I've only read the last two pages up to this point.

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Nothing. Hence, why I no longer like the Justin=Kemmler theory. Justin probably picked up a stray infection somewhere.

[DaedalusMkV]

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I didn't touch on it above, but I'm half-convinced Kumori = Elaine.

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That doesn't really make much sense, though. We know that Harry shares a very distinct connection with Elaine, and he knows her and her mannerisms very well. In Summer Knight she is unable to hide her identity from him for long, while Harry never recognizes Kumori in repeated and fairly extended interactions with her. I also can't believe that Elaine would have been able to be that indifferent to Harry after what happened in Summer Knight, or that Elaine somehow managed to both be Cowl's apprentice and a ward of the Summer Court at the same time.

I just don't see it, really. It ascribes abilities and deceptive talent to Elaine that we've never been given any indication she possesses and introduces timeline glitches thanks to Elaine being a ward of Summer.

As to Langtry=Cowl, that also seems far-fetched, if only because his reactions to Peabody's betrayal seemed pretty genuine and his fight against the Outsider (and actually working very hard to beat it) don't make a lot of sense if he's Black Council. It's also probably fair to assign Cowl's hatred of Harry in White Night to nearly dying when Harry collapsed the Darkhallow. Nearly getting annihilated is a good reason to want revenge. Plus, Cowl's style (raw power and mastery of the Nevernever) doesn't fit well with Langtry's (total defense and flawless Wards). It's not an impossibility, but it seems like a real stretch.

If Cowl's anyone, I expect he's one of the two Council members that we don't have a good read on yet. Either LaFortier faking his death or Christos. I mean, Ebenezar suspects Christos of being Black Council as-is, it seems like a logical step, especially since the two of them are closely connected and LaFortier definitely possesses the knowledge necessary to enact the Darkhallow. The more I think about it, the more sense LaFortier makes as being Cowl.

If Langtry's Black Council he's not very good at it.

[huttj509]

So, here's what I'm discovering:

I read all the books, I thought I followed the plot...but people are throwing out names and I realize I have no clue who they ARE.

Is there a good counter to the, for lack of a better word, plotblur?

[DaedalusMkV]

So, here's what I'm discovering:

I read all the books, I thought I followed the plot...but people are throwing out names and I realize I have no clue who they ARE.

Is there a good counter to the, for lack of a better word, plotblur?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Unless you're missing big names like Cowl, Kemmler or Elaine, you're probably fine. A lot of the names being thrown around in this particular discussion are Senior Council members with very little face-time. Especially the names I dropped, being a guy who probably died in Turn Coat and his replacement with all of two or three paragraphs of discussion devoted to him, who I had to use the wiki to look up.

You can read the wiki, though. It's weak in terms of detail, but it's at least a good way to jog the old memory.

[Alleran]

Actually it was Lea and Eldest Gruff.

As a note on Ferrovax, Mab and so on, there was another WOJ (in addition to the one with Lea and the Eldest Gruff, which did state that even Mab would be loathe to attempt taking Ferrovax head-on) that explicitly cited Ferrovax's power:

Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast. It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos. He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment. He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession. There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.

It's interesting that if they were cosmic forces who had authority over parts of the universe, they may have been not too dissimilar to Archangels once. And the one about Ferrovax possessing the raw power to take Mab:

Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:

o Titania--though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn't)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court--again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.
o The entire White Court--very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.

All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.

There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened.

I think there was something about Archangels also being able to do it (Harry did realise that Mr. Sunshine could extinguish all the stars in the universe... at the same time) and Mab being able to obliterate the Wild Hunt if she was of a mind to (the Erlking might be a "peer" of sorts to Mab, but there's a reason why Mab is the one who's in charge of Winter), but I can't find that one.

[Eldan]

When was Langtry ever a student of Kemmler? Cowl states he knows Grevane and the Capriocorpus well, and they know him.
It's unknown exactly when Langtry became the Merlin. As we've seen before, White Council wizards are capable of taking long sabbaticals. It's not unfeasible for Langtry to have spent some time learning from Kemmler at some point in his life.[/spoiler]

Hm. A small point here:

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I don't remember the quotes, but you say that Cowl stated that he knows them. Does he ever say that he was a student of Kemmler himself?

If he is Langtry, the connection might be different. He might have known them when they were council members before going rogue, as an example. Before they joined Kemmler.

[Anderlith]

Just curious, but what is WOJ?


Also, just throwing this out here, I think Martha Liberty is evil. I don't have any proof, just a feeling. Maybe she's Kumori, I don't know, but I just have a gut feeling that she will be a villain later on.

[The Glyphstone]

Word of Justin.

[jindra34]

Word of Justin.

Jim not Justin. As in Jim Butcher the WRITER of the books.