Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Also, a poster on the DF forums noticed something very lulzy that I thought was worth sharing:

That's some excellent attention to detail there. Is Jim Butcher secretly the American alterego of Oda?

[Lord Seth]

Continuing my re-reading of The Dresden Files, I've just completed Turn Coat, which I think may be my favorite book of the series I've re-read so far. Honestly, what I think puts it up high for me is how things get started immediately. First page, the plot kicks off in a stellar fashion, which was something I really liked.

As a side note, I believe I read Moon Called (first book in the Mercy Thompson series) reasonably soon after I read Turn Coat, and I found it amusing to see how completely different the depictions of skinwalkers were in those two books.

[Socratov]

I'd rather have a spin off about Ramirez, he's six kinds of awesome

one for each of his abs?

He's the Centuries Old Gatekeeper preventing an Outsider Apocalypse with one eye who enjoys a good laugh. He's the decades old Warden who liked the description of Disintegrate in D&D a little too much and would really enjoy a good lay. They Fight Crime

OK, this just made my day, also, cue Rashid: "I'm getting too old for this sh*t!"

[Lvl45DM!]

one for each of his abs?


OK, this just made my day, also, cue Rashid: "I'm getting too old for this sh*t!"

Yay! I chortled to myself for ages after writing that. Nice to be appreciated

[GenericMook]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socratov

one for each of his abs?


OK, this just made my day, also, cue Rashid: "I'm getting too old for this sh*t!"

Yay! I chortled to myself for ages after writing that. Nice to be appreciated

Posted from Giantitp.com App for Android

[Mauve Shirt]

I found the DFRPG books! And now I have to learn how to run a Fate game! I've only ever played a Fate game before! This should be interesting! Exclamation points!

[Aidan305]

I found the DFRPG books! And now I have to learn how to run a Fate game! I've only ever played a Fate game before! This should be interesting! Exclamation points!

IMO Dresden Files is probably the best of the Fate systems, and currently my go-to system when writing one-shot scenarios. Best thing to remember about Fate is that it's a very character and story driven system and works best when you're focused on those aspects of play.

[Soras Teva Gee]

As a side note, I believe I read Moon Called (first book in the Mercy Thompson series) reasonably soon after I read Turn Coat, and I found it amusing to see how completely different the depictions of skinwalkers were in those two books.

Personally I don't know that I'm ever going to get Shagnasty out of my head so how dissonant was it?

[123456789blaaa]

So we don't have much evidence as to what Mac actually is but out of all the possible options I think that him being a Grigori is the most plausible. I've compiled all the evidence I can find:

• They were known as "Watchers" and Mac was called Watcher.
  
  
• There are subtle angelic references around him like the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.
  
  
• The Grigori disobeyed God because they mated with human women and fathered the Nephilim. This fits with Macs speech to Harry in Changes:
  
  

  Mac folded his arms on the bar and looked at me intently and said, in a resonant baritone, “You’ve got to be very careful, Harry.” I looked at him, shocked. He’d . . . used grammar.
  
  “Something like this will test you like nothing else,” Mac said. “You’re going to find out who you are, Harry. You’re going to find out which principles you’ll stand by to your death—and which lines you’ll cross.” He took my empty glass away and said, “You’re heading into the badlands. It’ll be easy to get lost.”

• There is a link between Grigori and wine:
  
  

  I am aware of Nephilim-Wine connection, but it is a bit tenuous. You need to put a couple of sources together:
  
  1) The bible talks about a King Og who, according to some traditions was actually around during the time of the Flood (he hung on to the outside of the Ark, as he was so big).
  
  

  "As the floodwaters swelled, Og, king of Bashan, sat himself on one of the rungs of the ark's ladders and swore to Noah and to his sons that he would be their slave forever. What did Noah do? He punched a hole in the ark, and through it he handed out food to Og every day. Og's survival is hinted at in the verse 'Only Og remained of the remnant of the Rephaim' (Deut 3:11)." (From Pirkei D'Rebbe Eliezer 23 as quoted in The Book of Legends edited by Hayim Nahman Bialik.)

  Note: The text quoted is from around ~400 CE.
  
  
  2) Og is known as one of the "Refaim", a race of giants who lived in ancient times.
  
  3) "Refaim" and "Nephilim" are sometimes used to describe the same people in the various legends. See here for an initial look. Some say the "Refaim" were a subset of the "Nephilim" - who lived in a certain area (of which Og was one).
  
  4) Among other things, Noah is known to be the first person to ever get drunk (see: Genesis 9:20)
  
  5) While most Jewish sources blame Noah's drunkenness on Satan somehow, there is a tradition that it was Og who somehow altered the wine to induce drunkenness (presumably until this point it was merely just a way of getting closer to god). An example of that is here
  
  

  "I am giving thy descendants two extra blessings," said Og, chuckling.
  
  He rolled over and over on the ground in great glee and then said:
  
  "When a man shall drink too much of the juice of the wine, then shall he become a beast like the pig, and if then he still continues to drink, he shall behave foolishly like a monkey."
  
  And that is why, unto this day, too much wine makes a man silly.

  ------------
  
  So:
  Grigori --> Nephilim --> Rephaim --> King Og --> Noah --> wine.
  
  Yes, it's a little involved, but there *is* a connection. It would not surprise me to see other traditions where Grigori (or at least Nephilim) are somehow connected to wine/strong drink. It was after all one of the traditional way of worshiping "powers".

Thoughts?

[Mauve Shirt]

I think people make a big deal out of "This is God's beer" that's just not really there. However I like the angelic idea in general. Pair him with Uriel and Harry's got 2 "watchers" on his side. They could be the same I guess, but that'd be a little lame.

*goes and reads the wiki articles about angels*

Man, I wish Christian tradition still had all this great apocrypha and mythology going on. SO INTERESTING!

[123456789blaaa]

I think people make a big deal out of "This is God's beer" that's just not really there. However I like the angelic idea in general. Pair him with Uriel and Harry's got 2 "watchers" on his side. They could be the same I guess, but that'd be a little lame.

*goes and reads the wiki articles about angels*

Man, I wish Christian tradition still had all this great apocrypha and mythology going on. SO INTERESTING!

Do people? I've never really seen it mentioned much. Anyways, it could totally just be a little description with no other relevance but I think it seems exactly like the little hints Jim usually peppers throughout the books.

What do you mean by them being the same?

[Mauve Shirt]

I mean Mac = Uriel. Watcher = watcher.

[Xefas]

Thoughts?

I hope not. I was planning on using the Grigori and Nephilim in a game of the Dresden Files RPG. If they turn out to be something used in the books, then it isn't cool and different anymore! D=

[123456789blaaa]

I mean Mac = Uriel. Watcher = watcher.

There's like, 0 evidence for Mac being Uriel so I wouldn't worry. Also, was Uriel ever called a watcher?

I hope not. I was planning on using the Grigori and Nephilim in a game of the Dresden Files RPG. If they turn out to be something used in the books, then it isn't cool and different anymore! D=

What were you going to do with them?

[Xefas]

What were you going to do with them?

We're planning on having the game set in Houston. So, I was thinking of making the Johnson Space Center, aka NASA Mission Control, one of the set pieces, with its supernatural face as Penemue, the Grigori of human knowledge and enlightenment.

His entourage consists of his distant Nephilim descendants which are, of course, paperbending rocket scientists.

'Neraph' would be a template open for player purchase, of course, and it wouldn't have to be tied to Penemue. The other Grigori have taken up shop in different parts of the continental United States and Canada. For, y'know, apocalyptic, New Babylon, dystheistic, NERV reasons.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There's like, 0 evidence for Mac being Uriel so I wouldn't worry. Also, was Uriel ever called a watcher?

Didn't Mab call him the Watchman or something like that?

The real problem is that Uriel is a much more active force in the Dresdenverse, and not the least bit detached. Given who he works for he's likely more attached then its possible for a human to be.

I tend to think Mac is Uatu as an occupation he took up not something fundamental to his nature. I favor him being basically a monastic of some sort, formerly either a wizard or maybe someone like Kincaid.

(Incidentally monks are among some of the oldest brewers still active)

[The Glyphstone]

I'm still maintaining that he's an Outsider gone 'native' until proven otherwise.

[123456789blaaa]

We're planning on having the game set in Houston. So, I was thinking of making the Johnson Space Center, aka NASA Mission Control, one of the set pieces, with its supernatural face as Penemue, the Grigori of human knowledge and enlightenment.

His entourage consists of his distant Nephilim descendants which are, of course, paperbending rocket scientists.

'Neraph' would be a template open for player purchase, of course, and it wouldn't have to be tied to Penemue. The other Grigori have taken up shop in different parts of the continental United States and Canada. For, y'know, apocalyptic, New Babylon, dystheistic, NERV reasons.

Interesting...very WOD-like. What are their relationships with the WG and his servants? What about the Denarians?

I'm still maintaining that he's an Outsider gone 'native' until proven otherwise.

Evidence?

[The Glyphstone]

Evidence?

Absolutely none. That's what makes it a perfect theory, because there is no proof supporting or refuting it.

[Philistine]

Absolutely none. That's what makes it a perfect theory, because there is no proof supporting or refuting it.

This forum really needs a "weeping, wailing, and gnashing teeth" smiley.

[Mewtarthio]

Nah, Mac's a Pure Mortal. His beer is really good, though, so all the supernaturals have heard about him.

This forum really needs a "weeping, wailing, and gnashing teeth" smiley.

[Xefas]

Interesting...very WOD-like.

In style? Or is that a thing in the World of Darkness?

What are their relationships with the WG and his servants? What about the Denarians

Spoiler

Show

In the war between Heaven and Hell, the Grigori are on the side of humanity.

They don't like the White God & Company, but most don't hate them, either. Some bear more individual grudges, but on the whole, Angels are resolved to not meddle in mortal affairs for now, so their actions aren't offensive enough to make them enemies of the Grigori. For the moment, anyway. When the End of Days breaks loose, all bets are off.

They peacefully (most of them) oppose religion and atheism. In the Dresdenverse, atheism requires an ignorance of the real threats to humanity. But, just because there is/are god(s), doesn't mean you should worship them. They teach some combination of humanism and dystheism (one or two drift into misotheism, and others dabble in transhumanism).

They're largely neutral towards human True Believers, like the Knights of the Cross. The Grigori know that such devout faith isn't likely to be worn down with rhetoric, and in the mean time, they're keeping their kind safe in their own way. Most would surely respect someone like Michael Carpenter; after all, he saved lives, was a good spouse and father, and raised his kids to be strong, educated, and capable of making their own informed choices about things.

On the other hand, they hate most of demon-kind, especially ones like the Denarians, who prey on humans exclusively and unabashedly. They do respect that some of the Fallen just wanted freedom, much like themselves, but the average demon wants to harm humanity, and it's often difficult to tell who's on the side of freedom, and who's on the side of chaos, so it's practical to open with hostility and discern as you go.

Their ultimate goal is to arm human-kind with all the knowledge they'll need to become independent, in all ways, from every supernatural force in the universe. Humans are already scary enough to give everyone pause. What would a single united Earth, with a fully savvy military and all of human ingenuity focused on a single goal, survival, the goal they're best at, the masquerade finally lifted from their eyes, be able to do?

Well, the Grigori have put all their chips on the answer being, "They'd Win". They'd kick the devil in the teeth, bloody god's nose, and hunt the Sidhe like rabbits. Any supernatural folk who want to live as citizens, rather than kings or predators, are welcome to submit an application. But that's just the dream - it's nowhere near reality yet, and the march to enlightenment is slow going.

[Feytalist]

Absolutely none. That's what makes it a perfect theory, because there is no proof supporting or refuting it.

The Walker recognises him in Cold Days. That's a pretty big one, I think. 'Course, an Outsider could possibly recognize him if he was an angel/half-angel/some other sort of supernatural critter too.

For the record, I happen to think he's a retired Outsider too

[Soras Teva Gee]

In style? Or is that a thing in the World of Darkness?

Spoiler

Show

In the war between Heaven and Hell, the Grigori are on the side of humanity.

They don't like the White God & Company, but most don't hate them, either. Some bear more individual grudges, but on the whole, Angels are resolved to not meddle in mortal affairs for now, so their actions aren't offensive enough to make them enemies of the Grigori. For the moment, anyway. When the End of Days breaks loose, all bets are off.

They peacefully (most of them) oppose religion and atheism. In the Dresdenverse, atheism requires an ignorance of the real threats to humanity. But, just because there is/are god(s), doesn't mean you should worship them. They teach some combination of humanism and dystheism (one or two drift into misotheism, and others dabble in transhumanism).

They're largely neutral towards human True Believers, like the Knights of the Cross. The Grigori know that such devout faith isn't likely to be worn down with rhetoric, and in the mean time, they're keeping their kind safe in their own way. Most would surely respect someone like Michael Carpenter; after all, he saved lives, was a good spouse and father, and raised his kids to be strong, educated, and capable of making their own informed choices about things.

On the other hand, they hate most of demon-kind, especially ones like the Denarians, who prey on humans exclusively and unabashedly. They do respect that some of the Fallen just wanted freedom, much like themselves, but the average demon wants to harm humanity, and it's often difficult to tell who's on the side of freedom, and who's on the side of chaos, so it's practical to open with hostility and discern as you go.

Their ultimate goal is to arm human-kind with all the knowledge they'll need to become independent, in all ways, from every supernatural force in the universe. Humans are already scary enough to give everyone pause. What would a single united Earth, with a fully savvy military and all of human ingenuity focused on a single goal, survival, the goal they're best at, the masquerade finally lifted from their eyes, be able to do?

Well, the Grigori have put all their chips on the answer being, "They'd Win". They'd kick the devil in the teeth, bloody god's nose, and hunt the Sidhe like rabbits. Any supernatural folk who want to live as citizens, rather than kings or predators, are welcome to submit an application. But that's just the dream - it's nowhere near reality yet, and the march to enlightenment is slow going.

Cool stuff.

So I suppose that would establish the distinction between "angels" and Angels like how only a small number of demons are Fallen.

I can rather picture Mr. Sunshine's commentary on them:

"They were created for knowledge but sometimes knowing too much lets you forget what's most important..."

[Mikeavelli]

IMO Dresden Files is probably the best of the Fate systems, and currently my go-to system when writing one-shot scenarios. Best thing to remember about Fate is that it's a very character and story driven system and works best when you're focused on those aspects of play.

As a follow-up, it's not remotely balanced for competitive/puzzle-based play. Different character options have blatantly obvious wildly different "power levels" (Compare/contract the Tier system for classes in D&D took years to develop and is still argued about, the tiers in Dresdenverse are obvious from the first session of play) - so any attempt to run a game in that style will end poorly.

[Mauve Shirt]

Yeah, it might be pretty hard to match a Knight of Faerie with any other template, unless you made a Knight of the Cross, or a Vampire Emissary or something. The DM's got to manage the power level of his players without ruining their time.

[Xefas]

Based on my experience, if folks are reasonably comfortable with Fate, I'd put tiers of power something like:

Pure Mortal
Wizard
Everybody Else
Dude Whose Only Supernatural Power Is Evocation

A party with a Wizard and a bunch of Pure Mortals is probably the scariest thing ever. Harry would approve.

[Mauve Shirt]

Well as long as the Pure Mortals are Marcone, Murphy and Butters. Not Rudy, Thug 2 and Random Cop #1653.

[Xefas]

Well as long as the Pure Mortals are Marcone, Murphy and Butters. Not Rudy, Thug 2 and Random Cop #1653.

I meant more in terms of mechanical strength, rather than in-universe strength.

In terms of game power, Pure Mortal PCs have so many Fate Points that they can briefly become unto tiny unstoppable co-GMs of doom every session. Plus, they're fully capable of exploiting the special weakness inherent in many of the adversaries you'll face - which is to say, bullets.

Pure Mortal NPCs are chumps compared to most supernatural foes, true enough. Unless there are a lot of them, or they have military grade weapons, or they ambush you. How many times have we seen Harry go down to a random dude with a blunt object who just happened to get the drop on him? That can happen in the game too.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So basically in complete accord with the Dresdenverse itself then.