Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[jindra34]

So basically in complete accord with the Dresdenverse itself then.

Indeed. In fact in book they even called out how big a deal the 2 extra refresh was. And how capable wizards were, though that one got the response of: Its a system based on the stories, how many people aren't going to start at WIZARD.

[123456789blaaa]

In style? Or is that a thing in the World of Darkness?

Spoiler

Show

In the war between Heaven and Hell, the Grigori are on the side of humanity.

They don't like the White God & Company, but most don't hate them, either. Some bear more individual grudges, but on the whole, Angels are resolved to not meddle in mortal affairs for now, so their actions aren't offensive enough to make them enemies of the Grigori. For the moment, anyway. When the End of Days breaks loose, all bets are off.

They peacefully (most of them) oppose religion and atheism. In the Dresdenverse, atheism requires an ignorance of the real threats to humanity. But, just because there is/are god(s), doesn't mean you should worship them. They teach some combination of humanism and dystheism (one or two drift into misotheism, and others dabble in transhumanism).

They're largely neutral towards human True Believers, like the Knights of the Cross. The Grigori know that such devout faith isn't likely to be worn down with rhetoric, and in the mean time, they're keeping their kind safe in their own way. Most would surely respect someone like Michael Carpenter; after all, he saved lives, was a good spouse and father, and raised his kids to be strong, educated, and capable of making their own informed choices about things.

On the other hand, they hate most of demon-kind, especially ones like the Denarians, who prey on humans exclusively and unabashedly. They do respect that some of the Fallen just wanted freedom, much like themselves, but the average demon wants to harm humanity, and it's often difficult to tell who's on the side of freedom, and who's on the side of chaos, so it's practical to open with hostility and discern as you go.

Their ultimate goal is to arm human-kind with all the knowledge they'll need to become independent, in all ways, from every supernatural force in the universe. Humans are already scary enough to give everyone pause. What would a single united Earth, with a fully savvy military and all of human ingenuity focused on a single goal, survival, the goal they're best at, the masquerade finally lifted from their eyes, be able to do?

Well, the Grigori have put all their chips on the answer being, "They'd Win". They'd kick the devil in the teeth, bloody god's nose, and hunt the Sidhe like rabbits. Any supernatural folk who want to live as citizens, rather than kings or predators, are welcome to submit an application. But that's just the dream - it's nowhere near reality yet, and the march to enlightenment is slow going.

In style. The whole blending of supernatural and modern, and hidden cults and conspiracies is very WOD-like to me. In the Dresdenverse supernaturals generally aren't interested in tech or a scientific mindset. Oh they might use modern tools but they won't invent anything or try to find new things out. They also generally focus on building up power within their own supernatural communities with lots of hooks in specific sections of the mortal world. You won't see many powerful supernaturals directly behind specific companies or people. Especially famous and unique ones like NASA.

Don't you play WOD?

Based on my experience, if folks are reasonably comfortable with Fate, I'd put tiers of power something like:

Pure Mortal
Wizard
Everybody Else
Dude Whose Only Supernatural Power Is Evocation

A party with a Wizard and a bunch of Pure Mortals is probably the scariest thing ever. Harry would approve.

Really? From reading the threads it seems Wizards are the most powerful by far. It's what I see people complaining about when it comes to game balance anyways.

[Eldan]

It's mostly due to the way fate points work. While th emortal character is not that powerful, his player can have a lot of influence over the story.

[Xefas]

Don't you play WOD?

Never played WoD, dunno anything about it. I've played Exalted, but it's sufficiently removed, I think, that I don't pick up anything from the other.

Really? From reading the threads it seems Wizards are the most powerful by far. It's what I see people complaining about when it comes to game balance anyways.

From my experience, this will be the case if the group is not used to playing Fate. A newbie Pure Mortal will spend all his Fate Points on giving himself +2s to stuff. When, in reality, he should be throwing out Declarations, Compels, and Invoking For Effect.

Fighting a Warlock? Compel his High Concept so that a Warden shows up to crash his party. In a spot of trouble against the Sidhe? Invoke your Police Connections aspect For Effect - you called in a couple favors before stuff hit the fan, and around the next corner are a half dozen officers prepared to deal with a coked-up serial murderer. Getting beat down by your GM's newest homebrew Shoggoth-Capybara creation? Declare that it's weak to fire, and then Declare that the closet in this hallway is used to store kerosene.

Not to mention, in a new group, GMs don't tend to Compel as hard as they should. They throw soft balls that anyone would grab for a Fate Point without even thinking about it. Which, are fine sometimes, but really you need to be hammering the player with tough decisions. It's a fine balance to learn, Compelling hard enough to create a meaningful decision, but not so hard that it crosses the line into being a jerk. Still the GM should be screwing everyone relatively as hard as Harry gets screwed in the books, and when the Wizard runs out of Fate Points, he can't resist Compels anymore.

That's when you come in with the "Gotta save that old lady" and "Accidentally fall and shatter your spine" Compels.

[Mauve Shirt]

Hrm. I can't find a ghoul in the books for my character to fight. Any ideas for monsters with similar power-levels?

[Xefas]

Hrm. I can't find a ghoul in the books for my character to fight. Any ideas for monsters with similar power-levels?

The stat-blocks for Ghouls and Uber-Ghouls are on page 59 of "Our World", although the description for Ghouls begins on page 58.

[Lord Seth]

So, somewhat interrupting the discussion, I finally finished with Ghost Story in my readthrough. Unfortunately, that means only Cold Days is left before I have to go into waiting for the next book...

I noted earlier that I found Storm Front and Fool Moon to be much better the second time around. So what about Ghost Story? Well...I think I liked it a little better, but to be honest, I think this is, in my opinion, the worst Dresden Files book.

I no longer feel the disappointment or frustration I had when I first read this book, which was that I really, really wanted to see how things would continue after Changes, so waiting a long time (I think this one took the longest to write of the series so far?) only for a book to basically serve as a big bunch of filler, then have to wait again to finally get some real payoff, was quite frustrating. This may be why I liked it a little more the second time around.

And yet...this book really does still feel like filler. Some things in it are pretty important, but the main plot itself is largely irrelevant. When I look at the previous books, the main plots factored in very well with the ongoing stories and had real impacts. But really, how much of the main plot of this one really mattered? Harry could've just come back, interacted with some people for a while and find out the truth behind his death, then skip to the ending and you'd really lose very little, if anything. All that was really important in this book was the fact Harry "died" for a while, a bunch of things changed because of him, some random backstory on himself after he runs away from Justin, and he finds out what killed him. But I guess that wasn't enough to fill up the book, so we got Corpsetaker and Aristedes, who weren't particularly interesting villains (I actually had to look up the name of the latter when writing this, and I read this book recently), both to pad out the novel and provide the requisite action sequences.

Was this book still above average? Absolutely. But compared to the quality of the rest of the series, I think there's a real downturn, and it gets my vote as the weakest entry. Luckily I remember Cold Days being a return to form, let's see if it holds up when I re-read it.

[Anderlith]

Ghost Story is more about Dresden's internal changes & the world's changes of the fallout of the Battle of Chicken Eats-Ya (Chichen Itza).

The book is about Harry realizing that he has to think longer term than what he has been doing. That he needs to acknowledge his own failings & what may happen in the future because of them. Besides that, Ghost Story is a "falling action" book in a long running series of books. It can't be werewolves, vampires, & demons 24/7. the long end story has to slow down a bit after Changes had it's climax.

[jindra34]

Yeah Ghost Story was pretty much the denounment of Changes. In addition to Aftermath... And while the petty warlock dude wasn't too important in the grand scheme, his part did show something. And Corpsetaker? That is scary important, with heavy implications.

[123456789blaaa]

So, somewhat interrupting the discussion, I finally finished with Ghost Story in my readthrough. Unfortunately, that means only Cold Days is left before I have to go into waiting for the next book...

I noted earlier that I found Storm Front and Fool Moon to be much better the second time around. So what about Ghost Story? Well...I think I liked it a little better, but to be honest, I think this is, in my opinion, the worst Dresden Files book.

I no longer feel the disappointment or frustration I had when I first read this book, which was that I really, really wanted to see how things would continue after Changes, so waiting a long time (I think this one took the longest to write of the series so far?) only for a book to basically serve as a big bunch of filler, then have to wait again to finally get some real payoff, was quite frustrating. This may be why I liked it a little more the second time around.

And yet...this book really does still feel like filler. Some things in it are pretty important, but the main plot itself is largely irrelevant. When I look at the previous books, the main plots factored in very well with the ongoing stories and had real impacts. But really, how much of the main plot of this one really mattered? Harry could've just come back, interacted with some people for a while and find out the truth behind his death, then skip to the ending and you'd really lose very little, if anything. All that was really important in this book was the fact Harry "died" for a while, a bunch of things changed because of him, some random backstory on himself after he runs away from Justin, and he finds out what killed him. But I guess that wasn't enough to fill up the book, so we got Corpsetaker and Aristedes, who weren't particularly interesting villains (I actually had to look up the name of the latter when writing this, and I read this book recently), both to pad out the novel and provide the requisite action sequences.

Was this book still above average? Absolutely. But compared to the quality of the rest of the series, I think there's a real downturn, and it gets my vote as the weakest entry. Luckily I remember Cold Days being a return to form, let's see if it holds up when I re-read it.

I think that the villains of the Dresden Files in general are a weak point of the series. A LOT of them just fit into this cookie cutter generic mold in terms of personality (see: the skinwalker, Grevane, Corpsetaker, Evil!Bob, the Red King, Arianna, Victor Sells, and probably a bunch more that I'm not remembering). Bla bla bla I am awesome bla bla bla you are inferior bla bla bla how dare you insult my greatness bla bla bla etc. Very boring (I guess Evil!Bob sort of straddles the line). Jim has actually made this make more sense because the supernatural baddies in the setting usually don't have Free Will and the mortal ones are usually corrupted by black magic. They're still boring to read about though.

The villains in the series that don't fit this mold (Marcone, Lara, Nicodemus, etc) are better...but they still don't really make me interested. They serve their purpose and I'm not feeling bored when reading scenes in which they feature prominently but they would never have a place on my list of "favorite villains". What do you guys think?

(also, a thought: why is Corpsetaker called Corpsetaker? She steals living bodies.)

On Cold Days...It was a return to form but there were a ton of things in it that detracted from the enjoyment for me when reading.

Changes, Ghost Story, and Cold Days were supposed to be their own little mini-trilogy in the wider series. The problem is that while Cold Days answers some of the questions in the previous books, it also added a whole bunch more. This means that instead of neatly wrapping up the mini-trilogy it was instead like a gift having a huge honking hole in the wrapping. It felt unsatisfying IMO.

The training by Mab at the beginning felt a little goofy.

Another thing that felt really unsatisfying was that their wasn't any surprise at his return. Before CD came out I had daydreams of all kinds of awesome entrances Harry would make to announce his life to the world. Instead we have Murph and co reacting like it's nothing special. They barely comment on him coming back.

I also really hated the thing with Thomas at the end of the book. It made 0 sense to me and also felt like a huge cop-out. When Harry got the Winter Knight power-up it felt natural because he was entering a new stage of his life just as the books were entering a new stage of the series. It fit. Thomas's power up just felt ham-handed. Plus it also heavily implies that Murphy will need a power-up soon. I've seen people on the DF forums arguing that Murphy won't need a supernatural power-up and they point to her helping out Harry in CD as an example. This makes sense except if this is true than why is Thomas getting the ability to be at his full capacity? He has more supernatural power than Murphy already. EDIT: Whoops, this actually happened in Ghost Story and not Cold Days .

Nemesis is...eh. From what I've seen I don't really like it but we'll see what Jim does with it in the future.

I really disliked the reveal about the imbalance of Summer and Winter and their true roles. it feels artificial for the Courts to not be in balance. It also feels weird that WINTER is the Court that has the larger army and the one that fights and the Outer Gates. It would make much more sense for Summer to take on that role because Summer is the time of war. It's when their is feasting and fighting and killing. War is an affirmation of life. You do not go to war in Winter. How would you feed your soldiers? How would you not freeze to death? Winter is a time of intrigue and secrets. I get that Winter is the season of death but that's for assassination, not battle. For the DV to ignore that feels artificial considering it's closeness with RL symbolism and myth. It felt like Jim did this just because he had already tied Harry heavily to both the Winter Court and Outsiders and needed to bind them together somehow.

Other than these issues the book was great.

Thoughts?

[Anderlith]

The training by Mab at the beginning felt a little goofy.

Do you realize that this is Harry Dresden we are talking about? The guy who rode a zombie T-Rex through Chicago on his way to an undead apocalypse god ritual? The guy who used a Snoopy doll to slam a Lupe Garou into next week?


As to your other problems with the series....
Winter & Summer don't have the kind of symbolism you are trying to ascribe to it. Summer isn't war. Winter isn't assassination. You say that you shouldn't go to war during Winter & you are partially right. Humans don't want to go to war during winter. But this isn't humans. This is an army of winter fae. They don't worry about the weather. & this isn't a war that anyone wants to wage, they are in the fight for existence.

& the Unseelie have an army that size because the other powerhouses allow to be that size so that they can fight. Other groups have taken part in the war before & Winter will eventually pass on the burden to another group eventually.

[The Glyphstone]

(also, a thought: why is Corpsetaker called Corpsetaker? She steals living bodies.)

I think it's a subtle poke at how Harry is bad at Latin. "capio" translates to "I take", and "corpus" is "body", so her literal translation would be "Taker of Bodies".

[Salbazier]

The winter summer imbalance also perplexes me really. I feel it odd for two sides to not be balanced. Interpreted certain way it implies pretty grim picture of the world. More winter armies = winter has more teritory, people, whatever, to support those armies = winter is stronger than summer = so, things like death and cold and such that associated is actually stronger in the world?

[Mauve Shirt]

Thomas gets a level-up at the end of Cold Days? I haven't reread the book in a while.... I know Molly does, but what does Thomas get?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Thomas gets a level-up at the end of Cold Days? I haven't reread the book in a while.... I know Molly does, but what does Thomas get?

Well he did get to double up but that started in Ghost Story so I'm perplexed as well.

[Mikeavelli]

I think a large part of the imbalance is that Mab *won*. It's not the natural balance of summer and winter in nature, though that certainly helps. It's her political manuevering through the past several thousand years that put winter where it is today.

The rise of Fairy tales to maintain the power of the Unseelie Fey was her idea, Winter's idea. It glorified her, and and the power of her minions. Western European culture has spread across the whole of the world, further strengthening her. The Unseelie accords were her idea, she wrote them, she enforces them. At this moment in history, she is the winner of the grand prize, the queen of the hill, the grand poobah, lord death of murder mountain.

We even see her victories in the microcosm of this story. Of all the powerful supernatural entities who wanted to sway Harry to their side, Mab is the one who did it.

Unfortunately, even she probably didn't realize the actual prize for being on top consists of being responsible for waging an endless war against an impossible enemy from outside reality.

[Xefas]

The winter summer imbalance also perplexes me really. I feel it odd for two sides to not be balanced. Interpreted certain way it implies pretty grim picture of the world. More winter armies = winter has more teritory, people, whatever, to support those armies = winter is stronger than summer = so, things like death and cold and such that associated is actually stronger in the world?

The folks I'm playing with in the impending Dresden Files game are all fans, obviously. After Cold Days, we conversed on this topic, and the rationale we formed was this:

The size of the Winter and Summer courts, in the Nevernever, is proportional to their area of influence in the mortal world. So, places that are cold, dead, and inhospitable like, say, Antarctica, generate a lot of Winter Sidhe. Whereas, places that are warm, lively, and nurturing like, for instance, the Amazon Rainforest, generate a lot of Summer Sidhe.

If you round decimals, 100% of the universe is cold, dead, and inhospitable. The amount that is warm, lively, and nurturing is so infinitesimal that, big picture, it can barely be said to exist at all. Life has a relationship with the universe much like you have a relationship with a given organelle in a bacteria that used to live under one of your toenails but doesn't anymore.

All of the Winter Sidhe generated from outside the Earth's atmosphere are the Sidhe fighting the Outsiders.

---

Of course, things never being that easy, one of us happened upon an author quote about the Nevernever not extending past the moon, or something like that.

So, we talked about it again, and our alternative is:

(Spoilered for repeating)

Spoiler

Show

The size of the Winter and Summer courts, in the Nevernever, is proportional to their area of influence in the mortal world. So, places that are cold, dead, and inhospitable like, say, Antarctica, generate a lot of Winter Sidhe. Whereas, places that are warm, lively, and nurturing like, for instance, the Amazon Rainforest, generate a lot of Summer Sidhe.

However, the courts don't run via a mortal's linear perspective of time. The entire run, from beginning to end, of Life existing on Earth is going to be such a miniscule flash in the pan compared to the crushing nigh-infinity of the lifeless void that occupied this space before, and will after, that the Summer Court has very little to draw on, whereas Winter has all those countless eons of bleak nothing to power themselves. All the Winter Sidhe generated from time before Life, and after Life, are the Sidhe fighting the Outsiders.

Really, either works, and it'll likely never matter in our game, but it was fun to speculate.

[Mauve Shirt]

I agree with Mike's summation. Mab's evilness is a tool that keeps her on top through tiny political moves over hundreds of thousands of years. Every time someone reads Shakespeare, or Snow White, or obeys her accords, she gains a tiny bit of mortal influence, and it adds up. Winter in general is probably also helped by all of our biggest holidays taking place. We acknowledge the cold and death of winter even as we celebrate being warm. AND as Mike said, she was the first (though certainly not the last) to nab Harry.

Meanwhile, what affect does Summer have on the mortal world? I mean, I look forward to warmth every spring (woo, I get to wear sandals today!) but pleasance doesn't have nearly as much presence in our world as darkness. We like villains. We're cynical bastards. We're devious. We get seduced by black magic quite easily; Winter provided us with the Blackstaff. We've all got the desire to be nice, but it's hard for us to manage it.
Plus, Dresdenverse Summer didn't write the accords. I think that was Mab's greatest move. She owns supernatural politics in the Dresdenverse.

[123456789blaaa]

Do you realize that this is Harry Dresden we are talking about? The guy who rode a zombie T-Rex through Chicago on his way to an undead apocalypse god ritual? The guy who used a Snoopy doll to slam a Lupe Garou into next week?

Yes but that's Harry choosing to do all those things. It fits with his personality. In CD it was Mab who chose to train Harry in that manner. Mab is not goofy.

As to your other problems with the series....
Winter & Summer don't have the kind of symbolism you are trying to ascribe to it. Summer isn't war. Winter isn't assassination.

Summer isn't wholly war and Winter isn't wholly assassination but they do have those aspects. Remember Harry talking about the Redcap? The Redcap is an ambush predator. Remember Harry talking about the urges of the Winter Mantle? If you do you'll remember that it wants him to act like an ambush predator. Sneak around and murder and etc. Winter is a pack of starving wolves in winter (I believe Harry actually uses this example in CD). We haven't seen much of Summer but remember that centaur in Summer Knight? Chivalrous and ready for direct combat. That is very Summer.

Do you see? The symbolism has been established in both RL myth and the DV.

You say that you shouldn't go to war during Winter & you are partially right. Humans don't want to go to war during winter. But this isn't humans. This is an army of winter fae. They don't worry about the weather. & this isn't a war that anyone wants to wage, they are in the fight for existence.

Why does that matter? I'm talking about the symbolism here. The supernatural in the DV is intricately tied to RL. It is my opinion that gathering in an army shouldn't be in their nature.

& the Unseelie have an army that size because the other powerhouses allow to be that size so that they can fight. Other groups have taken part in the war before & Winter will eventually pass on the burden to another group eventually.

I understand this. I'm saying that I don't like that Jim chose to make it like that in the first place.

Thomas gets a level-up at the end of Cold Days? I haven't reread the book in a while.... I know Molly does, but what does Thomas get?

Well he did get to double up but that started in Ghost Story so I'm perplexed as well.

Whoops you guys are right. Scratch that then.

The winter summer imbalance also perplexes me really. I feel it odd for two sides to not be balanced. Interpreted certain way it implies pretty grim picture of the world. More winter armies = winter has more teritory, people, whatever, to support those armies = winter is stronger than summer = so, things like death and cold and such that associated is actually stronger in the world?

I think a large part of the imbalance is that Mab *won*. It's not the natural balance of summer and winter in nature, though that certainly helps. It's her political manuevering through the past several thousand years that put winter where it is today.

The rise of Fairy tales to maintain the power of the Unseelie Fey was her idea, Winter's idea. It glorified her, and and the power of her minions. Western European culture has spread across the whole of the world, further strengthening her. The Unseelie accords were her idea, she wrote them, she enforces them. At this moment in history, she is the winner of the grand prize, the queen of the hill, the grand poobah, lord death of murder mountain.

We even see her victories in the microcosm of this story. Of all the powerful supernatural entities who wanted to sway Harry to their side, Mab is the one who did it.

Unfortunately, even she probably didn't realize the actual prize for being on top consists of being responsible for waging an endless war against an impossible enemy from outside reality.

The folks I'm playing with in the impending Dresden Files game are all fans, obviously. After Cold Days, we conversed on this topic, and the rationale we formed was this:

The size of the Winter and Summer courts, in the Nevernever, is proportional to their area of influence in the mortal world. So, places that are cold, dead, and inhospitable like, say, Antarctica, generate a lot of Winter Sidhe. Whereas, places that are warm, lively, and nurturing like, for instance, the Amazon Rainforest, generate a lot of Summer Sidhe.

If you round decimals, 100% of the universe is cold, dead, and inhospitable. The amount that is warm, lively, and nurturing is so infinitesimal that, big picture, it can barely be said to exist at all. Life has a relationship with the universe much like you have a relationship with a given organelle in a bacteria that used to live under one of your toenails but doesn't anymore.

All of the Winter Sidhe generated from outside the Earth's atmosphere are the Sidhe fighting the Outsiders.

---

Of course, things never being that easy, one of us happened upon an author quote about the Nevernever not extending past the moon, or something like that.

So, we talked about it again, and our alternative is:

(Spoilered for repeating)

Spoiler

Show

The size of the Winter and Summer courts, in the Nevernever, is proportional to their area of influence in the mortal world. So, places that are cold, dead, and inhospitable like, say, Antarctica, generate a lot of Winter Sidhe. Whereas, places that are warm, lively, and nurturing like, for instance, the Amazon Rainforest, generate a lot of Summer Sidhe.

However, the courts don't run via a mortal's linear perspective of time. The entire run, from beginning to end, of Life existing on Earth is going to be such a miniscule flash in the pan compared to the crushing nigh-infinity of the lifeless void that occupied this space before, and will after, that the Summer Court has very little to draw on, whereas Winter has all those countless eons of bleak nothing to power themselves. All the Winter Sidhe generated from time before Life, and after Life, are the Sidhe fighting the Outsiders.

Really, either works, and it'll likely never matter in our game, but it was fun to speculate.

I agree with Mike's summation. Mab's evilness is a tool that keeps her on top through tiny political moves over hundreds of thousands of years. Every time someone reads Shakespeare, or Snow White, or obeys her accords, she gains a tiny bit of mortal influence, and it adds up. Winter in general is probably also helped by all of our biggest holidays taking place. We acknowledge the cold and death of winter even as we celebrate being warm. AND as Mike said, she was the first (though certainly not the last) to nab Harry.

Meanwhile, what affect does Summer have on the mortal world? I mean, I look forward to warmth every spring (woo, I get to wear sandals today!) but pleasance doesn't have nearly as much presence in our world as darkness. We like villains. We're cynical bastards. We're devious. We get seduced by black magic quite easily; Winter provided us with the Blackstaff. We've all got the desire to be nice, but it's hard for us to manage it.
Plus, Dresdenverse Summer didn't write the accords. I think that was Mab's greatest move. She owns supernatural politics in the Dresdenverse.

The problem with this is that Harry says in Summer Knight that global warming is caused by the Summer Court gaining more and more power over the years. This was partially why the situation in Summer Knight was so precarious.

This would also seem to imply that it's the power of the Winter and Summer Courts that influence the seasons of the mortal world, not the other way around.

[Triaxx]

It seems to me that Gard and 'Totally not Odin' are the only two who haven't made overt comments about Mac. I wonder if perhaps there's some Norse power there. It would explain his brewing talents, his knowledge of what's required to actually get into the accords, and the power to make it happen.

I'm not saying he's Thor, but I wouldn't be surprised to find a hammer behind his bar.

[Philistine]

The problem with this is that Harry says in Summer Knight that global warming is caused by the Summer Court gaining more and more power over the years. This was partially why the situation in Summer Knight was so precarious.

This would also seem to imply that it's the power of the Winter and Summer Courts that influence the seasons of the mortal world, not the other way around.

Why is this a problem? Looking at it on a geological rather than humanocentric scale, we know that the Earth has in the past been much warmer than it is now - what if "balance between Summer and Winter" results in a climate that looks more like the Mesozoic? That would allow for both the current climate to be a reflection of Winter's ascendancy (though not quite as total as during the Ice Ages) and also for a warming trend to reflect Summer getting some of their mojo back. And of course Big Warming's still bad news for humans, since we've developed during a cooler than average period in Earth's history (making us fundamentally creatures of Winter, I suppose).

[jindra34]

Honestly 123456789blaaa: It makes sense that Winter, being cold, calculating, analytical, and willing to kill associates to get the job done, would be given the job to defend existence from the nastiest things out there over the Summer. Its just the nature of common sense. And the balance of power? That might simply be whats LEFT after tending to the most important duties.

[123456789blaaa]

Why is this a problem? Looking at it on a geological rather than humanocentric scale, we know that the Earth has in the past been much warmer than it is now - what if "balance between Summer and Winter" results in a climate that looks more like the Mesozoic? That would allow for both the current climate to be a reflection of Winter's ascendancy (though not quite as total as during the Ice Ages) and also for a warming trend to reflect Summer getting some of their mojo back. And of course Big Warming's still bad news for humans, since we've developed during a cooler than average period in Earth's history (making us fundamentally creatures of Winter, I suppose).

The Fae are creatures intrictly tied to humans. See this quote from CD:

"It is at times very difficult to be so closely interwoven with mortals," she said.

"For you?"

"For all of Faerie," she replied.

"What do you mean?"

She gestured at herself. "We appear much as humans, do we not? Most of our folk do ---or else they resemble another creature of the mortal world. Hounds, birds, stags, and so forth."

"Sure," I said.

"You are endlessly fascinating. We conceive our children with mortals. We move and sway to the mortal seasons. We dance to mortal music, make our homes in mortal dwellings, feast upon mortal foods. We find parts of ourselves becoming more like them, and yet we are not like them. Many of the things they think and feel, and a great many of their actions, are inexplicable to us."

(and yes, I know MS says "mortals" but it really seems like "mortal" basically mean "human" in the DV instead of its RL meaning).

We also know that The Venator's tried to get rid of them by making people forget about them. The Fae are so tied to humans that it doesn't make sense to me for them to be around before us.

Honestly 123456789blaaa: It makes sense that Winter, being cold, calculating, analytical, and willing to kill associates to get the job done, would be given the job to defend existence from the nastiest things out there over the Summer. Its just the nature of common sense. And the balance of power? That might simply be whats LEFT after tending to the most important duties.

That's the explanation given in the book yes. I just don't think its convincing.

We see that the army of Winter Fae behind the Outer Gates basically serves as a second wall. That's there only function. An army made up of Summer Fae could do that just as well. "Being able to get the job done" comes into play with the subtler plots, the infiltrations, and so forth and coincidentally that is exactly what Winter is suited for. It doesn't really matter whether Mab or Titania are beating someone up-they have the exact same power level after all. However, I think Titania would have handled the situation in Cold Days very badly if Harry was her Knight and Sarrisa and Maeve her daughters.

[jindra34]

Indeed, Titania probably would have botched it all up if she were the one making the call to kill her daughter. And also consider that because Winter and Summer exist as seperate groups, there must have been a decision/conflict, back when Winter took over the duty at the Outer Gates, that caused the split. And given Summer's (apparent,natural) choice to save everyone, and the Outsiders not leaving many wounded, I doubt they would do as well holding the gates. And of course its also slightly a Chicken and Egg scenario with how they act, do they act that way because of their duties? Or do they have the duties they do because of how they act?

[Salbazier]

snip

That's a good theory but it has some problems. Gatekeeper said that Winter only got the job in this generation. That's implies either:

1)there is time when the Courts don't exist,
2)there is time when those armies are not occupied, which beg question why winter doesn't overwhelm Summer since then (though maybe they did. Ice and all. But that bring up another question of what happened during the Mesozoic then), or
3)There is time when winter doesn't have those armies.

Of those, 2) bring out a new chain of questions while 1) and 3) means the court does not operate on simultenous past-present-future time. Also, the comments about summer getting stronger thing

I agree that there is more lifeless/life-incompatile places and time on earthsphere. But the enourmous scale of winter armies shown seems to much of a difference.

[123456789blaaa]

Indeed, Titania probably would have botched it all up if she were the one making the call to kill her daughter. And also consider that because Winter and Summer exist as seperate groups, there must have been a decision/conflict, back when Winter took over the duty at the Outer Gates, that caused the split. And given Summer's (apparent,natural) choice to save everyone, and the Outsiders not leaving many wounded, I doubt they would do as well holding the gates. And of course its also slightly a Chicken and Egg scenario with how they act, do they act that way because of their duties? Or do they have the duties they do because of how they act?

I don't see how fighting the Outsides in direct combat is much different from fighting the Winter Fae in direct combat. Remember the battle in Summer Knight?

[Mauve Shirt]

Well, the Outsiders are about eleventy billion times badder than Fae. Them being from outside reality and all.

[123456789blaaa]

Well, the Outsiders are about eleventy billion times badder than Fae. Them being from outside reality and all.

Evidence? We know they have magic immunity but do we have any more information on their power levels?

[Mauve Shirt]

Man, the RPG basically says "These guys are bad news" without adding anything new. They are significantly higher-statted than fae though.

[Tavar]

Well....if we're talking about evidence for why Winter is better, how about the fact that they made Winter to fight off the outsiders, and made Summer to protect earth from Winter?