Favourite Character Tournament

[Szarrukin]

So... my votes goes to Malack and Nale. Malack is my favourite characters in this story arc and one of my favourites at all. Nale... well, I don't like him, but Pete is even worse

[Bird]

You see, Roy's snarkiness is one of my favorite parts of his character.

I agree his snarkiness is a lot of fun, though I always cringe when he's mean to Elan. In those moments, he's less of a lovable curmudgeon, and more of a jerk whom I couldn't tolerate in real life.

[137beth]

I agree his snarkiness is a lot of fun, though I always cringe when he's mean to Elan. In those moments, he's less of a lovable curmudgeon, and more of a jerk whom I couldn't tolerate in real life.

Agreed. I don't mind when he is snarky/mean to Belkar or Eugene, or even Haley, just Elan.

[Needle]

My cents about these last pages

1- woah, this is intense. Hope there IS a winner, since I don't see Sabine as a strong candidate.
2- Wizard Guy is there because he faced Celia
3- I hope the tournament has a rerun somewhere in the future, this many people on this round means there would have been some changes and...
4- Nale getting a record! This makes me happy, I feel so bad not to be able to vote for him at R1 that this is almost good enough, I hope he wins the LC

[Belkar<3]

Malack vs. Roy is also a record, I think. (for the amount of votes) 40-40, tied up.

[Keeper of Starlight]

Malack vs. Roy is also a record, I think. (for the amount of votes) 40-40, tied up.

41-41, I believe.

[HuskyBoi]

I agree his snarkiness is a lot of fun, though I always cringe when he's mean to Elan. In those moments, he's less of a lovable curmudgeon, and more of a jerk whom I couldn't tolerate in real life.

Given how much Elan clearly drives him up the wall, I kind of don't blame Roy. After all, it's well and good for us just reading these adventures, poor Roy has to put up with his idiocy 24/7! Snarking is inevitable.

Personally, my major complaint against Malack was that he was... well... a bit boring. Until the vampire reveal (which was pretty cool), he just swished along being very aloof and unreactive and never really having much personality. Contrast to Vaarsuuvius who is also very sophisticated and aloof, but has a bit more character since s/he's also incredibly snobbish. Malack was just... friendly and dull, in my opinion.

[137beth]

Given how much Elan clearly drives him up the wall, I kind of don't blame Roy. After all, it's well and good for us just reading these adventures, poor Roy has to put up with his idiocy 24/7! Snarking is inevitable.

Personally, my major complaint against Malack was that he was... well... a bit boring. Until the vampire reveal (which was pretty cool), he just swished along being very aloof and unreactive and never really having much personality. Contrast to Vaarsuuvius who is also very sophisticated and aloof, but has a bit more character since s/he's also incredibly snobbish. Malack was just... friendly and dull, in my opinion.

Even after the reveal, he's basically just another "nice but evil" vampire caricature.

[VanaGalen]

As for Roy, another thing I really don't like about him is his extreme male chauvinism. He sees every girl he meets (who is not his family) as sex object.
- Miko
- Celia and their relationship of mutual lust
- he doesn't show such attitude towards Haley, but he probably doesn't want to risk lawsuit. At the same time he doesn't mind sneaking a peek at Haley's wardrobe malfunction. It took him 666 strips to acknowledge Haley's competence as leader and her commitment to the OotS. Roy even admits he didn't trust her here. He doesn't have that problem with male/ambiguous members of the group.

Girls who don't fall into the "lust" category, seems to be listed under "hate" in Roy's mind. His total lack of respect towards women also shows in his actions towards female bad guys:
- Sabine
- and Miko

There is also the belt issue: Roy finds the idea of using the belt so abhorrent that only after Elan gets mortally wounded Roy finally goes through with it. The other guys in the OotS don't seem to have that problem.

This looks especially bad compared with other non-female OotS members: Elan, Durkon and V, and even Belkar seems to show more respect for women than Roy...

[oppyu]

As for Roy, another thing I really don't like about him is his extreme male chauvinism. He sees every girl he meets (who is not his family) as sex object.
- Miko
- Celia and their relationship of mutual lust
- he doesn't show such attitude towards Haley, but he probably doesn't want to risk lawsuit. At the same time he doesn't mind sneaking a peek at Haley's wardrobe malfunction. It took him 666 strips to acknowledge Haley's competence as leader and her commitment to the OotS. Roy even admits he didn't trust her here. He doesn't have that problem with male/ambiguous members of the group.

Girls who don't fall into the "lust" category, seems to be listed under "hate" in Roy's mind. His total lack of respect towards women also shows in his actions towards female bad guys:
- Sabine
- and Miko

There is also the belt issue: Roy finds the idea of using the belt so abhorrent that only after Elan gets mortally wounded Roy finally goes through with it. The other guys in the OotS don't seem to have that problem.

This looks especially bad compared with other non-female OotS members: Elan, Durkon and V, and even Belkar seems to show more respect for women than Roy...

In defence of Roy

Haley Starshine
No offence to her, but she was not trustworthy or a good leader at the start of the strip. She got the position of second-in-command by swindling her teammates, she took more than her fair share of loot at least twice and generally acted like a Chaotic thief. Also, it's established that he didn't trust Belkar or Elan either. As for his being a pervert around her... well Durkon was just as bad. If that good, decent dwarf is perving, then I'm willing to chalk it up to Early Installment Weirdness.

Celia
Their relationship actually seems quite healthy, so not sure what the problem is there. If you want an example of mutual lust, try Haley and Elan.

Sabine
Everyone in OOTS hates Sabine. She's tried to kill them several times. And I don't believe he hates or disrespects Sabine any more than he hates or disrespects her male teammates.

Miko
Well, he realised he was being a douche there. And I reiterate, everyone in OOTS hated Miko. He was just the last to catch on because he was busy trying to smite evil with her.

Belt of Gender-Changing
Nobody but Elan even seemed remotely interested in it. Plus he actually put on the belt within two strips of realising that the party still had it; it's not like he spent nights glaring at the belt and muttering "I will never be a woman, I have no respect for them. I will never be a woman, I have no respect for them."

Finally, Belkar has more respect for women than Roy? Really?

[Mr.Rictus]

As for Roy, another thing I really don't like about him is his extreme male chauvinism. He sees every girl he meets (who is not his family) as sex object.
- Miko
- Celia and their relationship of mutual lust
- he doesn't show such attitude towards Haley, but he probably doesn't want to risk lawsuit. At the same time he doesn't mind sneaking a peek at Haley's wardrobe malfunction. It took him 666 strips to acknowledge Haley's competence as leader and her commitment to the OotS. Roy even admits he didn't trust her here. He doesn't have that problem with male/ambiguous members of the group.

Girls who don't fall into the "lust" category, seems to be listed under "hate" in Roy's mind. His total lack of respect towards women also shows in his actions towards female bad guys:
- Sabine
- and Miko

There is also the belt issue: Roy finds the idea of using the belt so abhorrent that only after Elan gets mortally wounded Roy finally goes through with it. The other guys in the OotS don't seem to have that problem.

This looks especially bad compared with other non-female OotS members: Elan, Durkon and V, and even Belkar seems to show more respect for women than Roy...

Ok, I may have voted against him, but I'm still going to defend him here. Roy has not shown any extremely chauvinistic tendencies, though I'll grant he hasn't always been a gentleman.

With Haley, he was checking out a cute girl deliberately teasing, and that was when he was single. I wouldn't really call it "pervy". Not very mature, but it's not really disrespecting her, since she's the one that was mucking around in the first place. Also, in the next strip, he seems to stop Haley's search and tells her to focus.

He acted prefectly fine with Celia, and it was only when they started dating that they both made innuendos.

With Miko he was initially a bit of a jerk, but he owned up to that later. As for hating her afterwards, that was just because she's a terrible person. If anything, he was sexist in the fact it took him that long to hate her, as he'd have gotten fed up with her sooner if she was a man.

And Sabine? Again, see horrible person, then multiply it by 100. He doesn't hate her anymore than Nale or Thog. And it was particularly UNchauvinistic of him to flat out refuse her offer after their Cliffport fight and bash her just like the villain she is.

Belt of Gender-changing? Few guys would really be comfortable with the idea, if only because it's embarassing (he certainly didn't want his dad to hear about it when he went to heaven). He still went and used when it was necessary.

[VanaGalen]

Celia
Their relationship actually seems quite healthy, so not sure what the problem is there. If you want an example of mutual lust, try Haley and Elan.

Sure, it's a relationship of mutual, not one-side lust so there is nothing wrong with that. Both Roy and Celia acknowledge and are OK with it. But at the same time, there is nothing more in their relationship. They're more like friends with benefits than boyfriend-girlfriend. It isn't any different from Belkar and Jenny. And I like a bit of romance in romantic subplots

As for Haley and Elan, they sure do have overactive libidos, but there is a lot more in their relationship. Each of them brings out hidden good qualities in the other one. Elan actually became useful because he wanted to save Haley from Nale. Haley became more honest, open and trusting person thanks to Elan, she also found some sense of stability and definitely moved up on "good" alignment axis. They share a lot of simple, small but very romantic gestures - like passing notes during battle or the cactus flower fight. Also the story of them acknowledging their feelings is very subtle and romantic - unlike "oooo, you have such a big greatsword, lets go on a date".

As for Miko, sure, everyone in the OotS dislikes her. But when Roy finally turns from lust to hatred, it seems he wants to actually take revenge on Miko for the fact that he used to like her (in his own chauvinistic way).

Haley Starshine
No offence to her, but she was not trustworthy or a good leader at the start of the strip. She got the position of second-in-command by swindling her teammates, she took more than her fair share of loot at least twice and generally acted like a Chaotic thief. Also, it's established that he didn't trust Belkar or Elan either. As for his being a pervert around her... well Durkon was just as bad. If that good, decent dwarf is perving, then I'm willing to chalk it up to Early Installment Weirdness.

It's true that in the first strips all characters (except Durkon and Roy) are very immature and aren't working as a team at all. However, that changed long ago (for V and Haley at least). Elan used to have his stupidity and uselessness for much longer and Belkar is still homicidal and not to be trusted. I'd say the turning point for Haley was when we saw the letter about her father. From that strip she acts in very responsible way and really cares about her team. Around strip #150 she takes command and carries out rescue operation (foiled by Belkar, but well, Belkar screws up Roy's plans too). Her insight is often very helpful to the team (she was right about Miko, she saw through Shojo's deception, she pointed out the "real" Xykon during the Battle of Azure City). All that goes unnoticed by Roy for over 500 strips. I think we can't compare her to Elan or Belkar, because they were irresponsible and/or useless for much longer, so it's natural Roy doesn't trust them.

And Sabine? Again, see horrible person, then multiply it by 100. He doesn't hate her anymore than Nale or Thog. And it was particularly UNchauvinistic of him to flat out refuse her offer after their Cliffport fight and bash her just like the villain she is.

Well, it's true, Sabine is evil to the core. Still, I'd say refusing her offer was logical and wise (it was an obvious trick), but not really respectful towards her or any other girl.
Anyway, you're right it wasn't really chauvinistic action, but definitely not gentleman-like. I suppose it's because I find any violence against women really repulsive, so I hate to see Roy brutally kicking Sabine and Miko (even though there are bad guys, they're still girls). But that's just me.

As for the belt story, Roy's reluctance is understandable. However, I suppose neither Elan, Belkar, Durkon and especially V would make so much fuss about it as he did. By itself, the belt story would mean nothing, but as it is, it adds up to other things.

And for Belkar - the style of his relationship with Jenny was pretty much set by Jenny herself. Belkar definitely shows more respect towards Haley. Also, Belkar is rude, selfish and cruel to everyone, regardless of sex, race and skin color, and still he's often nicer to Haley than Roy.

[sam79]

Anyway, you're right it wasn't really chauvinistic action, but definitely not gentleman-like. I suppose it's because I find any violence against women really repulsive, so I hate to see Roy brutally kicking Sabine and Miko (even though there are bad guys, they're still girls). But that's just me.

A minor point perhaps, but Sabine isn't a "girl"; she's some sort of female demon, who often takes the shape of a woman. Objecting to Roy beating down on her because violence against women repulses you seems strange to me. Unless it is violence against any (humanoid?) females that you find hard to stomach?

[Kish]

and still he's often nicer to Haley than Roy.

...That is quite a claim.

What you are saying happens "often," I remember happening once, after Haley killed all those hobgoblins with her arrows, if we consider it being specifically called out that Belkar was momentarily too impressed to be vile to mean Belkar was being specifically nice to Haley--which I don't.

[Mr.Rictus]

Well, it's true, Sabine is evil to the core. Still, I'd say refusing her offer was logical and wise (it was an obvious trick), but not really respectful towards her or any other girl.
Anyway, you're right it wasn't really chauvinistic action, but definitely not gentleman-like. I suppose it's because I find any violence against women really repulsive, so I hate to see Roy brutally kicking Sabine and Miko (even though there are bad guys, they're still girls). But that's just me.

Actually I agree, Roy isn't particularly a gentleman, and I really don't like the idea of violence against women, however, in the Oots context, it is occasionally necessary. A lot of women are just as dangerous as the men, and you can't really afford to go easy on the like of Sabine, or even Lord-killing Miko.

As for Roy and Celia, they are clearly attracted to each other. You're right they didn't get to have much interaction yet, but it's mostly due to them being very busy at the moment, one with law school, the other with saving the world. I know all about the complication of long-distance relationships and work schedules, as adults they fast-forwarded the dating process, but I have little doubt that when things slow down, they will go into a more dedicated relationship. :)

[VanaGalen]

A minor point perhaps, but Sabine isn't a "girl"; she's some sort of female demon, who often takes the shape of a woman. Objecting to Roy beating down on her because violence against women repulses you seems strange to me. Unless it is violence against any (humanoid?) females that you find hard to stomach?

Actually, yes, that's pretty much the case. Roy had all sorts of good reasons to defenestrate Sabine, but regardless of the story behind it, just the picture of guy brutally kicking a girl is ugly.
He definitely should fight Sabine, she evil like hell after all. Also, I agree in the OotS context guys have to fight girls sometimes. But there are many characters who simply handle these fights in more elegant way than Roy - Hinjo fighting Miko, V's duel with Samantha, Zz'dtri against V and even Belkar vs Jenny.

[sam79]

Actually, yes, that's pretty much the case. Roy had all sorts of good reasons to defenestrate Sabine, but regardless of the story behind it, just the picture of guy brutally kicking a girl is ugly..

Ok, that's cool. I feel the same way about that in Real Life, of course; in the same way as the sight of an adult hitting a child is ugly, or a big boy hitting a little boy. Its the disparity of strength between the 'combatants' makes it horrible.

But with adult human men and women in OotS world, there is no gender-based disparity of strength, so seeing men fighting women does not register with me in the same way.

Also, I agree in the OotS context guys have to fight girls sometimes. But there are many characters who simply handle these fights in more elegant way than Roy - Hinjo fighting Miko, V's duel with Samantha, Zz'dtri against V and even Belkar vs Jenny

Well, Hinjo lost against Miko, so perhaps (if he was 'gallantly pulling his punches', which I doubt) he'd have been better advised to fight like Roy.

V, Samantha and Zz'dtri don't count; their more elegant methods are based on their magical abilities, which is less visceral than hitting someone with a weapon up-close. Roy doesn't have access to these methods, of course. Also, given the gender ambiguity thing, V can hardly be used as an example of a male vs female fight, even if s/he did get stuck in with his/her fists.

And Belkar vs. Jenny...well, I don't remember them fighting, really. Belkar basically decided not to kill her because he found her hot. That...doesn't make him compare favourably to Roy, in my book!

[Diamond Dragon]

Actually, yes, that's pretty much the case. Roy had all sorts of good reasons to defenestrate Sabine, but regardless of the story behind it, just the picture of guy brutally kicking a girl is ugly.
He definitely should fight Sabine, she evil like hell after all. Also, I agree in the OotS context guys have to fight girls sometimes. But there are many characters who simply handle these fights in more elegant way than Roy - Hinjo fighting Miko, V's duel with Samantha, Zz'dtri against V and even Belkar vs Jenny.

So in order to fight a girl* "elegantly" you have to lose or make out with her?
*Disregarding V and Z, since we don't know there's a woman involved in that

Edit: Ninja'd, and in greater detail!

[Procyonpi]

Well, it's true, Sabine is evil to the core. Still, I'd say refusing her offer was logical and wise (it was an obvious trick), but not really respectful towards her or any other girl.
Anyway, you're right it wasn't really chauvinistic action, but definitely not gentleman-like. I suppose it's because I find any violence against women really repulsive, so I hate to see Roy brutally kicking Sabine and Miko (even though there are bad guys, they're still girls). But that's just me.

As for the belt story, Roy's reluctance is understandable. However, I suppose neither Elan, Belkar, Durkon and especially V would make so much fuss about it as he did. By itself, the belt story would mean nothing, but as it is, it adds up to other things.

But what Roy did isn't the sort of domestic abuse situation that typically gets refer ed to as referred against women. It's the equivalent of a soldier attacking an enemy combatant who happens to be female.

[screwtape]

So...you hate the Order of the Stick?

No. If you are speaking of the party, on average, I am ambivalent, though I find myself rooting against them. I hate Elan. HATE. Hate hate hate Elan. I dislike Roy, Belkar and V. I liked Durkon. I like Haley a lot, but I would like her more if she didn't love Elan.

If you are speaking of the comic overall, I like it. I think it is well written, though I think the writer is doing something wrong if I sympathize with the antagonists more than the good guys.

[Kish]

just the picture of guy brutally kicking a girl is ugly.

Could you please stop referring to adult women as girls while you argue that no man should ever hit a woman even if she's a literal fiend from hell who is expounding on her intention to cut his heart out and eat it.

[screwtape]

1. Lead to Belkar and Roy getting more character developement,

Respectfully, I don't see it that way. It was the same old Roy to me. Nothing new there, except possibly he showed his tolerance for Belkar is running out.

I think it is too soon to tell whether Belkar "developed". People seem to be reading into the situation what they wish. I think we'll have to wait and see just how much developing Belkar does.

and Malack becoming more like a generic villain.

I disagree. How do you think that made him generic? I think their opening discussion about whether they needed to fight was interesting. I think his attempt to negotiate with Durkon was about as non-generic as I've seen.

3.I feel like they are getting really overdone, though

I'm with you there. That's why I said "kinda" cool.

4.Really? He doesn't have nearly the depth of Belkar or Roy,

Really. I would not expect a character who has been around for a couple of months to be as deep. But he's not a stereotype black hat twisting his moustache and tying damsels to train tracks.

It isn't just about depth or who has more of it. It is about whom I like. I find Malak to be more interesting.

5.Roy's smart...

He's also a jerk. If you like him, that's cool. I don't. But you are still entitled to your opinion.

[VanaGalen]

So in order to fight a girl* "elegantly" you have to lose or make out with her?
*Disregarding V and Z, since we don't know there's a woman involved in that

Edit: Ninja'd, and in greater detail!

These were some examples, not all of them. If we take only fights where guy wins and there is no spellcasting, there's still: Belkar vs Miko, Belkar vs Crystal, Kubota vs Therkla and many others.
Besides, I always thought Hinjo lost to Miko because she had higher level, not because he was nice.
Regardless of what everyone think about V's gender, I think (s)he is more feminine than any male character in the comic and at the same time more masculine than any female. That's why I included hir fights here.

And I never said Roy shouldn't had hit Sabine. I simply said the way he did it, it looks really ugly.

[Procyonpi]

These were some examples, not all of them. If we take only fights where guy wins and there is no spellcasting, there's still: Belkar vs Miko, Belkar vs Crystal, Kubota vs Therkla and many others.
Besides, I always thought Hinjo lost to Miko because she had higher level, not because he was nice.
Regardless of what everyone think about V's gender, I think (s)he is more feminine than any male character in the comic and at the same time more masculine than any female. That's why I included hir fights here.

And I never said Roy shouldn't had hit Sabine. I simply said the way he did it, it looks really ugly.

Wait, you're seriously sighting Belkar's fights as an example of being nice to women? The guy who can't go 3 panels without spounting something sexist?

[hamishspence]

Actually, yes, that's pretty much the case. Roy had all sorts of good reasons to defenestrate Sabine, but regardless of the story behind it, just the picture of guy brutally kicking a girl is ugly.

I'm confused- we don't even see Roy hit Sabine at that moment:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html

all we see is her going out of the window- not what caused her to do so. Could have been a hit, could have been a push- it's not shown.

[Torrasque]

Thats one massive thread derailment :)

[Rakoa]

This is a huge thread derailment! I came here expecting to see a bunch more votes that could turn this match into a decisive victory for either party, and find not even a single vote has been cast since the 41st for Malack.

Disappointing.

[hamishspence]

On due consideration, I'm voting Roy and Nale.

[Mr.Rictus]

Indeed, but I think all the people who would vote have voted already. So it's just a "wait and see" game now... As long as somebody doesn't come at the last minute to vote for Roy I'm good^^

Edit: Most horrible ninja'd ever :(

[VanaGalen]

This is a huge thread derailment! I came here expecting to see a bunch more votes that could turn this match into a decisive victory for either party, and find not even a single vote has been cast since the 41st for Malack.

Disappointing.

Right, I believe we should refresh the main topic for everyone who would like to vote. What is the score atm, 42-40 or 42-41 to Roy?

For the LC I believe it's 65 - 6 to Nale with 11 or 12 people who didn't vote in LC?

Edit: Included one ninja vote above ;)